Support NeoGAF

[PairOfFilthySocks]

I honestly think we played different games and listened to different audio logs. I haven't seen anyone else make the argument that the way it handles the subject is "fine". Did you black out during the whole part where

Spoiler

a character called SKULLFACE shoved a bomb up a girls vagina while laughing about how "it's somewhere they'd never look. Or the part where he makes a thirteen year old boy rape her?

How is that well handled?

Err, with good direction? Seriously, the quality of the voice work and overall audio direction is what sells those tapes and manages to avoid them teetering into ridiculous territory. Kojima hasn't proven himself to be a terribly capable storyteller plenty of times in the past, but I honestly can't fault him with what we're presented with in those audio tapes.

It's an M-rated game. The tapes are supposed to upset. You're supposed to be disturbed. The jury's still out on whether or not Kojima has the storytelling chops to tell the grim tale Phantom Pain seems to be promising, but I honestly think what we saw in GZ in terms of tone and direction does get off on the right foot.

 

[valeo]

Err, with good direction? Seriously, the quality of the voice work and overall audio direction is what sells those tapes and manages to avoid them teetering into ridiculous territory. Kojima hasn't proven himself to be a terribly capable storyteller plenty of times in the past, but I honestly can't fault him with what we're presented with in those audio tapes.

It's an M-rated game. The tapes are supposed to upset. You're supposed to be disturbed. The jury's still out on whether or not Kojima has the storytelling chops to tell the grim tale Phantom Pain seems to be promising, but I honestly think what we saw in GZ in terms of tone and direction does get off on the right foot.

Comes across as a cheap stunt; not well thought out or earned.

 

[dan2026]

I find it really silly that characters can murder and destroy with abandon and its perfectly fine.
But as soon as rape is mentioned...'they went too far this time!!'

Ridiculous.

 

[CambriaRising]

Comes across as a cheap stunt; not well thought out or earned.

You're fine to interpret it that way, but I disagree completely.

 

[Alo81]

I find it really silly that characters can murder and destroy with abandon and its perfectly fine.
But as soon as rape is mentioned...'they went too far this time!!'

Ridiculous.

This has been nobodies arguments and if you're gonna contribute to the discussion, you should probably invest the time to actually understand peoples issues with it.

 

[demidar]

I find it really silly that characters can murder and destroy with abandon and its perfectly fine.
But as soon as rape is mentioned...'they went too far this time!!'

Ridiculous.

I think you're letting your kneejerk reaction cloud your reception to what is actually being argued.

 

[Delta Assault]

I think that is kind of a weird comparasion to make. And is not like this years had been devoid of movies that have schriophenic moods.

Eh? I think it's pretty spot on. They both enjoy going completely over the top. They just differ slightly on what fetishes they entertain. Kojima likes military porn and giant nuclear robots, while Bay likes military porn and... giant racist robots.

And I'm not making the argument that movies are devoid of schizophrenic moods. There are plenty of bad movies out there.

 

[ArjanN]

The reaction to Kojima's writing in games is similar to what would happen if Michael Bay decided to tackle serious dramatic issues in his movies. They're both auteurs that have a very unique style, along with a weird goofy sense of humor and a penchant for big explosions.The difference is that Bay recognizes his work for what it is and doesn't set out to delve into deep themes or philosophical issues (With the exception of The Island). It's consistent in its tone, even if it's a really crass and dumb one.

I'm not sure this comparison really works. At least Kojima is always trying something interesting, even if the execution isn't always there, while Bay is basically completely pandering at this point.

 

[dan2026]

I think you're letting your kneejerk reaction cloud your reception to what is actually being argued.

No I don't think so.

People are basically arguing that Kojima doesn't deserve to handle 'mature' subject matter because his games are full of goofy shit.
But Metal Gear Solid has been full of mature themes AND goofy shit from the very beginning. And nobody cared.

But now sexual assault is involved, people suddenly have a problem.
How strange...

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Eh? I think it's pretty spot on. They both enjoy going completely over the top. They just differ slightly on what fetishes they entertain. Kojima likes military porn and giant nuclear robots, while Bay likes military porn and... giant racist robots.

That doesn't sound superficial at best to you?

 

[Chunky]

He's kinda looking for it tho.... Not saying it's justified to insult anybody like that of course.

These duders need to take a hard look at how they're living their lives.

 

[Delta Assault]

That doesn't sound superficial at best to you?

No, I think it's them at their core. Of course, I can't claim to read their minds and know for certain, but...

"It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me." -Bruce Wayne

 

[Dany]

None of this talk is reversing my stereotype of modern Japanese games..

They're fucking weird.

Are you five years old?

"This lemonade is too sour!!!! Fuck citrus!!!!!"

 

[TheShampion]

I find it really silly that characters can murder and destroy with abandon and its perfectly fine.
But as soon as rape is mentioned...'they went too far this time!!'

Ridiculous.

Not really though. Things fall apart, people die. I am not a huge fan of violence in video games, but in the end, people can accept these things because it happens to everyone and everything one day, one way or another. Rape, on the other hand, will not happen to everyone, and therefore, people react more strongly to it. It makes sense.

Honestly, I think that Kojima going the more pulp fiction route (the trashy books, not the movie) with the fiction isn't what I wanted from the story, but it isn't something that is going to make me write off the entire series. I think I am just so used to all these nerdy things being taken more seriously, that when something like MGS goes off the rails like that it just comes off as unnecessary. The story, IMO, jumped the shark with Portable Ops, and it is hard to take seriously anymore. I was honestly more surprised at Jeff's reaction to it, just because he doesn't seem like the type of dude to take offense to media, but I respect his feelings. I am not going to defend Kojima, but I am not going to attack him either.

Anyway, I have been off and on with Giant Bomb lately, but the last podcast got me back on board. Also, as far as video games in Japan go, I saw a lot of people with PSPs (watched somebody play Final Fantasy Zero for like an hour one time), but the only people who ever talked to me about video games was an English Teacher who played Wizardry in english back in the day, and female students asking me if I like Resident Evil or Final Fantasy. Not sure if my experience was typical of Japan as a whole though.

 

[Jokab]

Are you give years old?

"This lemonade is too sour!!!! Fuck citrus!!!!!"

This post is somehow really funny.

 

[funkystudent]

Kojima should just stick to writing stories about giant robots and ninjas.

Leave the mature, thoughtful storytelling to Naughty Dog and ........... uhhhh......



Man. Video game writing kind of sucks. Fuck video games! Lets all read books!

 

[Volotaire]

That quicklook of Dynasty Warriors makes me feel uneasy about Hyrule Warriors. It seems like a game with a great concept, but poor execution.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I-I haven't even finished MGS2, MGS3, MGS4 or MGSPW yet...

I think 3 is the genuine best of both worlds that Kojima fell off of in recent years. It was dumb anime with a whiff of something larger and a satisfying ending. In my opinion, he hasn't replicated that since.

 

[Fotheringay]

You know, I like a lot of what Patrick does for GB but for someone who has now done multiple talks about how to conduct yourself on the internet he does a lot of things that just confound me. The silly GIF responses to people on Tumblr that don't really warrant any response are dumb and just glorifying people who are an asshole to him. I just saw that he retweeted someone saying some dumb shit to him on Twitter, what does that accomplish Patrick? All that is gonna lead to is a bunch of people going to that guys Twitter feed and saying a bunch of dumb shit to him and the cycle continues. Doesn't help that Alex comes to his defense with "HOW DARE YOU NOT GRASP THE MANY INTRICACIES OF KOJIMA'S ART", I just don't see what any of this accomplishes. Engage with the people who seem willing to actually have a discussion and don't just pinpoint the people out there being asses.

This has been the MO of game journalists for the past couple of years. Whenever a controversy arises, they'll cherry pick the typical internet trash, lambaste it publicly, circlejerk with their peers on twitter, and conveniently ignore the myriad of posts that attempt to approach the situation with calm, rational thought. It's an industry that has been barely above the dregs of message board bullshit for so many years, with many of the big sites being nothing more than PR, and their attempt to differentiate themselves has them shitting on their main audience. Look at how Schreier initially dealt with Pristine_Condition calling him out over the Dragon's Crown art hooplah (to his credit, Schreier's further postings on neogaf have been nothing but positive).

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Kojima should just stick to writing stories about giant robots and ninjas.

Leave the mature, thoughtful storytelling to Naughty Dog and ........... uhhhh......



Man. Video game writing kind of sucks. Fuck video games! Lets all read books!

Is this the part where I mention that Naughty Dog isn't the zenith of mature, thoughtful storytelling, either?

 

[funkystudent]

Is this the part where I mention that Naughty Dog isn't the zenith of mature, thoughtful storytelling, either?

Oh go ahead. They wrote one game that was extremely well written. The uncharted games are dumb city!

Also while we are Kojima bashing. For as much as the internet loves the character The Boss is basically a walking Anime melodrama dialogue machine with very little actual character in MGS3. She is like "can love bloom on the battlefield" in character form.

 

[ArjanN]

Kojima should just stick to writing stories about giant robots and ninjas.

Leave the mature, thoughtful storytelling to Naughty Dog and ........... uhhhh......

Man. Video game writing kind of sucks. Fuck video games! Lets all read books!

Videogames writing nowadays generally isn't as bad as people make it out to be, especially given that it's a completely different genre than movies and books.

Also, all of Kojima's games are full of attempts are mature thoughtful storytelling (as well of goofy humor), even if your mileage may vary on how successful these attempts are, it's not like it's anything new for him.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

To be honest, while I think The Last of Us created two characters for whom I enjoyed seeing their interactions and journey through the plot, the actual game was bathing in the mud of zombie tropes. The very same people that would turn up their nose at a badly-written episode of The Walking Dead (and there are many badly-written episodes of The Walking Dead) would celebrate the very same things that happen in The Last of Us.

It speaks to a lowered standard for what's acceptable in a video game. Watching a thirty year old man write a sentence is less impressive than if a toddler did it and that's basically the comparison we draw when looking at games like TLoU.

 

[Delta Assault]

Kojima should just stick to writing stories about giant robots and ninjas.

Leave the mature, thoughtful storytelling to Naughty Dog and ........... uhhhh......



Man. Video game writing kind of sucks. Fuck video games! Lets all read books!

Telltale's The Walking Dead is the only other thing I can really think of that's up there.

Maybe RDR?

 

[Zaph]

Throwing this out there: I don't video games have matured enough to the point where heavy subjects like rape can be handled well through interactive storytelling.

The exception to this is maybe something like Gone Home where a story is told without awkwardly animated characters delivering b-movie dialog. It's the exception because it's basically an audiobook with a few visuals, so it doesn't stray too far from the well established structure of a novel.

It's worth remembering that what is often called a "great" story in a video game, is still miles behind a great film or book. We have a long way to go to catch up, and it requires not just good writers, but also advances in motion capture, facial animation and overall graphical fidelity to handle these subjects with the gravity they deserve.

 

[TheShampion]

The problem with writing and video games is that unlike most passive mediums, video games don't need a good story to be good. I like the MGS story because it is the right type of crazy for the type of stealthy, high tension gameplay that it has. I don't know if I would want some sort of subdued, quiet story if I have been sneaking around and laying in the grass for five minutes trying to get past a guard. One reason I could never get into the Splinter Cell games is because I would spend all this time making sure I was super-careful, and then the payoff would just be not really to my taste. If I am going to spend all that time getting from place to place, I want big bombast when I get to the end.

Expecting nuance from MGS is like expecting nuance from a musical, sure they can do it, but I am not sure if I really want that from them.

Edit: I think the "great" video game stories are the ones that are unique to the medium. Trying to find a video game that compares favorably to a book or a movie is like trying to find a painting that compares favorably to a symphony.

 

[ArjanN]

To be honest, while I think The Last of Us created two characters for whom I enjoyed seeing their interactions and journey through the plot, the actual game was bathing in the mud of zombie tropes. The very same people that would turn up their nose at a badly-written episode of The Walking Dead (and there are many badly-written episodes of The Walking Dead) would celebrate the very same things that happen in The Last of Us.

It speaks to a lowered standard for what's acceptable in a video game. Watching a thirty year old man write a sentence is less impressive than if a toddler did it and that's basically the comparison we draw when looking at games like TLoU.

Well there's that, but also games have so much more going on besides just the writing, while in books that's really all there is.

EDIT: Basically what Shampion said above.

 

[LuchaShaq]

I find it really silly that characters can murder and destroy with abandon and its perfectly fine.
But as soon as rape is mentioned...'they went too far this time!!'

Ridiculous.

Anyone who argues that a soldier killing another soldier is worse than raping a child is a monster who shouldn't be allowed to interact with society as a whole.

 

[Mr. F]

Telltale's The Walking Dead is the only other thing I can really think of that's up there.

Maybe RDR?

Definitely RDR without a doubt. Dutch's monologue is my favourite scene in a game.

 

[Dany]

The scene after that in RDR where you are rushing to Abigail as that one song plays. Got me right there...right there ;_;

 

[BUNTING1243]

Telltale's The Walking Dead is the only other thing I can really think of that's up there.

Maybe RDR?

Walking Dead, Last of Us, Red Dead, Bioshock Infinite and Spec Ops are all that really stand out to me.

 

[ArjanN]

Telltale's The Walking Dead is the only other thing I can really think of that's up there.

Maybe RDR?

A Mind Forever Voyaging by Infocom... from 1985.

A ton of old adventure games really.

 

[Dragon]

Spec Ops The Line is a tremendous game, but mostly for all the non gaming aspects to it.

 

[firehawk12]

Walking Dead, Last of Us, Red Dead, Bioshock Infinite and Spec Ops are all that really stand out to me.

After what I heard about Burial at Sea, I'm glad that the franchise is fucking dead and buried.

In fact, the Burial at Sea ending makes me more angry than anything else, but for a completely different set of reasons.

 

[funkystudent]

Bioshock Infinite actually has written in reasons why its story is rubbish and makes no sense so I will give it that.

 

[ThusZarathustra]

Meaningful narrative and engaging gameplay often work at cross-purposes in games, especially as mass-market appeal and budget increase on a project.

Even in something like an Uncharted there is still some dissonance created from the fact the you're just mowing down mother-fuckers mass-murder-style, and something like GTA has been hamstrung by this problem for quite some time (Rockstar's best solution to that problem was Trevor, who was the embodiment of the sociopathic emergent gameplay that happens in an open world game).

Personally, I feel that narrative is in a lot of ways the enemy of games as a medium. I feel the over-focus on it distracts people from recognizing mechanics as the defining trait of the form, and genuinely feel that narrative has been hijacked by the David Cages and the N'Gai Croals of the world in some odd attempt to gain respectability by emulating another, more socially acceptable medium: film.

The best game stories are ones that use the mechanics as inherent story-telling tools: a la Papers Please. But lemme tell ya, Luftrausers, and Super Hexagon and such don't need, and would not be improved by, a narrative.

Mechanics make the medium.

EDIT: Not just mechanics, but design as well. I'd say that the contribution that world-design (purely in a spatial sense, not the color or texture or lighting or any of that) makes to the narrative experience of something like a Shadow of the Colossus is something inherent to the medium of games.

 

[obonicus]

I guess the question is how many GOTY prizes The Phantom Pain will get on GAF.

 

[rakkadakka]

Are you five years old?

"This lemonade is too sour!!!! Fuck citrus!!!!!"

As long as the lemons were shoved into an orifice, I'll know it's Japanese lemonade.

 

[ArjanN]

Anyone who argues that a soldier killing another soldier is worse than raping a child is a monster who shouldn't be allowed to interact with society as a whole.

Once could argue murder is generally a worse crime than rape. But even if you don't feel that way, you can't really deny sex in games is more of a hot-button issue than violence, at least in the US.

 

[Dragon]

Once could argue murder is generally a worse crime than rape. But even if you don't feel that way, you can't really deny sex in games is more of a hot-button issue than violence, at least in the US.

Most people differentiate between murder and soldiers killing each other.

 

[Alo81]

Walking Dead, Last of Us, Red Dead, Bioshock Infinite and Spec Ops are all that really stand out to me.

I feel like this is only paying attention to modern games.

I haven't played them personally, but I've heard a lot of great things about Planescape Torment, perhaps Nier, and I believe I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream

 

[BUNTING1243]

After what I heard about Burial at Sea, I'm glad that the franchise is fucking dead and buried.

In fact, the Burial at Sea ending makes me more angry than anything else, but for a completely different set of reasons.

The ending of Burial at Sea ruined a lot of the mystery in the franchise, and by extension my interest. I absolutely adore OG Infinite's story though.

Out of curiosity, what made you so angry about it?

I feel like this is only paying attention to modern games.

I haven't played them personally, but I've heard a lot of great things about Planescape Torment, perhaps Nier, and I believe I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream

Oh yeah, I should've prefaced that post by saying I was only talking about last gen games.

Also shit I totally forgot about Gone Home! That would definitely be up there. Fuck that game hit me hard

 

[firehawk12]

Most people differentiate between murder and soldiers killing each other.

In games, not really.

Bioshock Infinite actually has written in reasons why its story is rubbish and makes no sense so I will give it that.

The Lost model of writing.

Meaningful narrative and engaging gameplay often work at cross-purposes in games, especially as mass-market appeal and budget increase on a project.

Even in something like an Uncharted there is still some dissonance created from the fact the you're just mowing down mother-fuckers mass-murder-style, and something like GTA has been hamstrung by this problem for quite some time (Rockstar's best solution to that problem was Trevor, who was the embodiment of the sociopathic emergent gameplay that happens in an open world game).

Personally, I feel that narrative is in a lot of ways the enemy of games as a medium. I feel the over-focus on it distracts people from recognizing mechanics as the defining trait of the form, and genuinely feel that narrative has been hijacked by the David Cages and the N'Gai Croals of the world in some odd attempt to gain respectability by emulating another, more socially acceptable medium: film.

The best game stories are ones that use the mechanics as inherent story-telling tools: a la Papers Please. But lemme tell ya, Luftrausers, and Super Hexagon and such don't need, and would not be improved by, a narrative.

Mechanics make the medium.

EDIT: Not just mechanics, but design as well. I'd say that the contribution that world-design (purely in a spatial sense, not the color or texture or lighting or any of that) makes to the narrative experience of something like a Shadow of the Colossus is something inherent to the medium of games.

There's a reason why most of the examples of "good stories" in video games come from games with good cutscenes more than anything else anyway.

The ending of Burial at Sea ruined a lot of the mystery in the franchise, and by extension my interest. I absolutely adore OG Infinite's story though.

Out of curiosity, what made you so angry about it?

Precisely that.

I finally understand the "raped my childhood" people when it comes to Star Wars. I feel like

Spoiler

Burial at Sea retroactively ruins Bioshock 1

by trying to wrap everything up in a neat little bow and I just find it so cheap and aggravating. The way that the main game ended left me on an apathetic note, but to push that even further with the DLC? It really is the "midochlorian" moment of the franchise.

 

[Haunted]

Metal Gear Solid scripts aren't worthy of being used to wipe Ken Levine's ass, comparisons between talentless hacks and actual intelligent writers aren't appropriate.

It's also interesting that most people in this thread do not mention Japanese games or developers when talking about good videogame writing - just an observation. Honestly, the only recent one that comes to mind is Nier. Itoi is obviously fantastic as well, but he's not working in games anymore.

Spoiler

if you say 999 you're automatically disqualified

 

[ArjanN]

Most people differentiate between murder and soldiers killing each other.

Well, there's plenty of regular murder/terrorism etc in Metal Gear as well. I was speaking more about games in general though.

Metal Gear Solid scripts aren't worthy of being used to wipe Ken Levine's ass, comparisons between talentless hacks and actual intelligent writers aren't appropriate.

lol, I like Levine's stuff but come on.

 

[firehawk12]

Metal Gear Solid scripts aren't worthy of being used to wipe Ken Levine's ass, comparisons between a talentless hacks and actual intelligent writers aren't appropriate.

Please. After Burial at Sea, I expect Logan's Run to be a piece of shit. Assuming it ever gets made.

 

[BUNTING1243]

In games, not really.


The Lost model of writing.



There's a reason why most of the examples of "good stories" in video games come from games with good cutscenes more than anything else anyway.


Precisely that.

I finally understand the "raped my childhood" people when it comes to Star Wars. I feel like

Spoiler

Burial at Sea retroactively ruins Bioshock 1

by trying to wrap everything up in a neat little bow and I just find it so cheap and aggravating. The way that the main game ended left me on an apathetic note, but to push that even further with the DLC? It really is the "midochlorian" moment of the franchise.

Yeah, pretty much. I liked the multiple dimensions idea, but they went way too far with the connections and everything felt really rushed. It honestly felt more like fan fiction than an actual part of canon.

Please. After Burial at Sea, I expect Logan's Run to be a piece of shit. Assuming it ever gets made.

Hey man, Bioshock 1+Infinite were really well-written.

 

[faridmon]

I find it really silly that characters can murder and destroy with abandon and its perfectly fine.
But as soon as rape is mentioned...'they went too far this time!!'

Ridiculous.

As said earlier in the thread. Both of them have been criticise if it wasn't told in a meaningful and contextual manner. The difference, is that one is integrated into the whole premise of said game while the other was included to forcefully manipulate our feeling towards the whole things with obdurate and, frankly, silly manner.

While I could have argue the fact that 2 wrongs doesn't make you argument right, Rape was purposefully told in a very tasteless manner that only Kojima was criticised for in this game. In fact, some of his ''shock value'' points were even done better in his previous games ffs

Metal Gear Solid scripts aren't worthy of being used to wipe Ken Levine's ass, comparisons between talentless hacks and actual intelligent writers aren't appropriate.

It's also interesting that most people in this thread do not mention Japanese games or developers when talking about good videogame writing - just an observation. Honestly, the only recent one that comes to mind is Nier. Itoi is obviously fantastic as well, but he's not working in games anymore.

Spoiler

if you say 999 you're automatically disqualified

To be fair, many of the Japanese game designers aren't trained story tellers/ writers, so them tackling big social and political issues is rather risky for what they can achieve and hence relay their philosophy in, not only artistic manner, but also manner that could very well make a point succinctly and directly. Ken Levine is an intelligent person who have the experience to direct, write and compose a complex and narratively coherent philosophy and wove it through an interesting premise of a video game design. Also, many of the western studios hire outsiders who happen to be literature of communication and have the experience to make a very good and strong storylines.

 

[Chance Hale]

To be honest, while I think The Last of Us created two characters for whom I enjoyed seeing their interactions and journey through the plot, the actual game was bathing in the mud of zombie tropes. The very same people that would turn up their nose at a badly-written episode of The Walking Dead (and there are many badly-written episodes of The Walking Dead) would celebrate the very same things that happen in The Last of Us.

It speaks to a lowered standard for what's acceptable in a video game. Watching a thirty year old man write a sentence is less impressive than if a toddler did it and that's basically the comparison we draw when looking at games like TLoU.

People turn their nose up at the bad writing in The Walking Dead just because of that, not the themes or situations taken on their own. The Last of Us is well written by any standard, with consistent characters, subtle dialogue, and believable world building. . It's not necessarily thematically layered, but it doesn't try to be either. It isn't like Heavy Rain which had the very real issue of being laughably written by any other medium's standard.

 

[firehawk12]

Yeah, pretty much. I liked the multiple dimensions idea, but they went way too far with the connections and everything felt really rushed. It honestly felt more like fan fiction than an actual part of canon.

I know intellectually I can just treat Bioshock 1 as a single game in the franchise that has nothing to do with the other two games, but I'll always know that isn't the case.

The hilarious part is that somehow all of this makes Bioshock 2 the best game in the trilogy in my mind. Go figure.

Hey man, Bioshock 1+Infinite were really well-written.

Bioshock 1 was amazing. Infinite was a series of interesting ideas that didn't really pay off (especially anything involving race and class). Burial at Sea was a season 6 episode of Lost.