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Giant Bomb #7 | Hey There, Small Business Owner!
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TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Man, I just rewatched the SWAT Random PC Game. I miss that feature so much.... 
"Oh, let's throw a grenade"
"Oh, let's throw a grenade"
shadyspace
Banned
AuthenticM
Member
The only thing I thought was tasteless in this entire thing is the
It's okay to disagree with how some of the story was handled, but please, tone down the hyperbole a notch or two.
"Time for a taste test" line. Implying that Paz was gangraped and her guts being spilled out in the helicopter is nothing to be worked up about. Some of you make it seem as if we just got the I Spit On Your Grave of videogames. We didn't.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Well, I don't really need your permission about what degree of disagreement is acceptable or not, but
From where I'm standing, it's bad writing born from a man's desire to punch above his weight and be recognized by the world for it. It's not the worst crime against nature, it's just an action that is inherently sad and a little pathetic.
Man, I just rewatched the SWAT Random PC Game. I miss that feature so much....
"Oh, let's throw a grenade"
I miss Dave
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
I think that calling pathetic is a little toxic. Kojima has the right idea of pushing the themes. He may not have the craft to pull it off, but I find problematic calling it sad and pathetic.
Broder Salsa
Banned
Me too... Me too...
Wish Vinny, Rorie and Drew would play some more random ass pc games.
ThusZarathustra
Member
Clearly there are people in this thread who have never been exposed to any literary criticism in their entire lives and have ham-fisted shock-oriented exploitation of delicate themes confused with subtle, respectful, explorations of them. Kojima has always leaned far, FAR toward the former. He usually just declares his themes and then plays with his actions figures, rather than explore his themes through actual character interaction and progression. But then that's par for the course for vidyagames.
Aging and obsolescence were the closest I think Kojima ever go tot actual thematic exploration.
Aging and obsolescence were the closest I think Kojima ever go tot actual thematic exploration.
ShockingAlberto
Member
It's not a Ground Zeroes-specific problem, but more something I have noticed from Kojima interviews and games from 2006. He clearly, absolutely wants to make video games on the level of movies and, moreover, he wants to be the person that does that. He's trying to do something inherently fallacious because video games are not movies. It's sad, to me, because it's a fundamentally broken idea. He has decided there is a holy grail for his craft and strives to attain it and has gotten lost in a pursuit he'll never reach.
He does this by picking out the things from movies that resonate emotionally with him - that movies can shock him, that they can make him cry, that they can make him feel for characters. But he picks them out as skeletons, as dirty bones pulled from bodies of flesh and poses them to play stories. Could the stuff with Paz theoretically be good? Sure. With proper writing, with proper respect to the story, it could be an emotionally powerful, shocking thing. He doesn't do that, though. He poses the skeleton and goes "Yeah, it doesn't have flesh, but you get the idea."
I figured he would stop after a while, but it's a demeanor that is getting worse every year, seemingly.
I think Brad was the one who went to the Ubisoft preview event from which they got the B-roll for the Unfinished video.
Also can all of this Kojima BS move to the Ground Zeroes spoiler thread?
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
There has been both types of work, thought. No defending Kojima writting but there has been shock oriented exploitattion and craft exploration since a while ago.
rakkadakka
Member
None of this talk is reversing my stereotype of modern Japanese games..
They're fucking weird.
They're fucking weird.
stump sock
Member
they do, sorta? Drew and Vinny pretty regularly throw on some goofy old games on UPF. It's been a while, but that Bioforge playthrough was amazing.
Basically I'd pay for a subscription to a website that was Vinny playing bad old games.
Chance Hale
Member
It's not like most people posting criticisms are doing so between readings of Nabokov and viewings of the latest Greenaway film.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Yeah, that would be great. I really hope we see a revival of RPG and LOLS.
Or they should try to get Dave in for one last RPG but I guess he is busy raising a kid and doing that website thing he does
Yeah, but it's always just for 30 minutes max. They should do a "FMV feature" where Vinny, Rorie and Drew play a different FMV game every week for an hour or so.
Man I have so many great ideas, they should just hire me a.
Chance Hale
Member
Would prefer hidden gems like Bioforge than awful FMV games that are almost all the same. Really hope Vinnyvania continues.
Bummer he chose to work out of the Tested offices instead of GB's (though there's probably CBSi rules against that or something lame, these are the same people that chastised Drew for indoor archery...fascists)
Bioforge was just another random old game when they started playing it during a UPF, maybe one of the FMV games will be really good and end up spawning a feature like the Bioforge series? (RIP Blade Runner playthrough)
So only people who read and watch certain things can cast criticism on others? Please tell me you're joking
.TheBaronOfNA
Banned
But the thing is that he has the right to try as we have the right to laugh or being offended of
vagina bombs
To me is sad that Kojima seems to be no aware of how questionable his scene is, no the fact that he wants to do more.
SteveWinwood
Member
As far as I'm considered Random PC Game is still the high point of giant bomb content.
Dave and Vinny just mesh so perfectly.
Dave and Vinny just mesh so perfectly.
ThusZarathustra
Member
True. But Kojima is such an interesting dude though, his descent into self-serious, yet wholly revolting and farcical anime-opera has been utterly fascinating to watch from the outside. This is the man who made MGS2, which is in a lot of ways a brilliant post-modern response to the original gameplay structures of MGS1 as well as its story and audience expectations. The man is clearly a formalist at heart and has some amazing ideas in the structural sense of narrative and meaning, but he has little desire, inclination, or ability to be truly literately complex with his work.
My apologies man, but I'm really not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying we need shock-oriented art? Are you saying that that sort of thing has always existed and so we shouldn't rally against it? I'd genuinely love to engage on the topic, but I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make...
Remember when Tested was good?
I remember when they were coffee.
Tested is still good (or maybe good again, there was a lull in there.) It's just different. I miss the old crosstalk too, but they're doing good work over there nowadays.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Kind of difficult when is treated like a Rockstar by fans and media (while is obvious that has little real power with Konami final decisions regarding his projects and MGS).
The Final Fantay team also suffered for this to a degree.
Chance Hale
Member
So only people who read and watch certain things can cast criticism on others? Please tell me you're joking
Ha, of course not. Was just making the comment that most people aren't really well-versed in the types of works he was bringing up. Film and literature are really on another level of thematic depth(and hell, they have comparatively 1000s/100 years of existence) but just like CoD being the most popular franchise most people don't explore those more interesting avenues. The point being a lot of people don't have that knowledge to base an extensive comparison of Ground Zeroes in the manner he was referring to.
I know it was, and that's why I'd rather they just focus on older games that could turn out to be gems rather than focusing on completely terrible FMV games. They're still fun to watch but the Kennedy one really made me realize they died for a reason.
Just wouldn't be the same without Ryan to get offended. :/
ThusZarathustra
Member
The problem is that playing with action figures while having them ham-fistedly declare themes anime-style is more than enough to satisfy Kojima's artistic urges and always has been.
He genuinely doesn't want to (or is genuinely incapable of) creating anything deeper or more complex. If he left videogame development he'd just be another Zach Snyder, not a Terrence Malick. Kojima stays in game development because here he can be a "star" and play with his action figures and people will rapid defend his work as complex and meaningful when it is and has always been shallow, gesturing manically at depth.
brianmcdoogle
Member
You know what, that's totally true, and it is a reason why video games aren't great narrative art and why they are growing up so slowly compared to other mediums. The fan base and the stewards of the hobby (our editors and critics) only watch action or super hero movies, read sic-fi trash novels, and watch television. They're connoisseurs of fast food, junk food, and other garbage. And, it totally sucks.
Which makes it all the more frustrating and nauseating when young adult novelists pretend that they're auteurs for including slavery into their pirate game, or movie nerds shoving in
like the bomb in Paz's you know where
Games are what they are, and unless people stop putting up with and elevating junk because it is "serious" junk, then that's all they will remain. If you want to applaud the effort of those even trying to move things forward, then that's a separate issue and should not excuse the quality of said efforts.
And, I think any more I'm going to post in the spoiler thread since I don't want people accidentally seeing spoilers for a game they might or might not have played.
darkressurection
Banned
You know, I like a lot of what Patrick does for GB but for someone who has now done multiple talks about how to conduct yourself on the internet he does a lot of things that just confound me. The silly GIF responses to people on Tumblr that don't really warrant any response are dumb and just glorifying people who are an asshole to him. I just saw that he retweeted someone saying some dumb shit to him on Twitter, what does that accomplish Patrick? All that is gonna lead to is a bunch of people going to that guys Twitter feed and saying a bunch of dumb shit to him and the cycle continues. Doesn't help that Alex comes to his defense with "HOW DARE YOU NOT GRASP THE MANY INTRICACIES OF KOJIMA'S ART", I just don't see what any of this accomplishes. Engage with the people who seem willing to actually have a discussion and don't just pinpoint the people out there being asses.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Well, I dunno if always but I can thing in some old examples of shock oriented literature (the most common, Sade works). No saying that Kojima is a particularly good writer in this times, but shock is not counter intuitive...
I also think that MGS2 is his best written stuff.
Well, I read a lot of people that defend Zack Snyder, so is not like movie enthusiasts are that much better.
Fattony12000
Member
I-I haven't even finished MGS2, MGS3, MGS4 or MGSPW yet...
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
2 and 3 are the best ones.
BUNTING1243
Banned
I like their tech stuff still, and the podcast when Gary or Brad or Dave is on, but yeah, don't really care about Adam Savage's man cave.
Wow none of these are even clever
eot
Banned
I don't think she's commented on it, I was just joking about it because she wouldn't stop going on about how Kojima is a misunderstood genius.
styl3s
Member
I guess i am not a human being because i didn't feel disgust at all :-/
Delta Assault
Member
The reaction to Kojima's writing in games is similar to what would happen if Michael Bay decided to tackle serious dramatic issues in his movies. They're both auteurs that have a very unique style, along with a weird goofy sense of humor and a penchant for big explosions. The difference is that Bay recognizes his work for what it is and doesn't set out to delve into deep themes or philosophical issues (With the exception of The Island). It's consistent in its tone, even if it's a really crass and dumb one. Kojima strives to marry these two worlds together and thus produces works that are tonally discordant and schizophrenic. One minute you're being lectured on the dangers of nuclear proliferation and the next you're watching a guy piss himself or shit his pants in a wacky cutscene. Now of course, some people might champion this tone deaf approach as sheer brilliance and a courageous approach in a landscape of blandness, just as some people probably think Interior Semiotics is a brave work of art.
But I tend to think of what Red Letter Media said in their Revenge of the Sith review:
"With these fucking Star Wars prequels I'm always forced to go back to screenwriting 101. And a big four letter word that comes to mind. [...] The word is Tone. And for those of you who don't understand what I'm saying, tone is how a movie feels. Movies are either like comedies, or dramas, or action movies, or thrillers. If they waver on the tone you don't know what it is and your brain starts to hurt. Typically you should establish what your movie is in the first ten minutes or so. Take Ghostbusters. You establish your characters, they're witty and funny and the audience gets that this movie is gonna be some kind of lighthearted comedy thing with ghosts in it. There isn't a violent rape on a pinball machine in the first ten minutes of Ghostbusters. Nor is there a pie-in-the-face gag in the opening of Citizen Kane. In Revenge of the Sith, what appears to be a general space adventure film is punctuated by a brutal decapitation mixed with bizarre attempts at slapstick humor. This whole sequence from the beginning to the crash landing goes from an intense, confusing, and complicated space battle to awkward slapstick, then suddenly it becomes dark and violent, then back to awkward comedy, then I don't know what the hell the tone is supposed to be here, if it's supposed to be funny or exciting or scary... I, I, I can't feel anything."
But I tend to think of what Red Letter Media said in their Revenge of the Sith review:
"With these fucking Star Wars prequels I'm always forced to go back to screenwriting 101. And a big four letter word that comes to mind. [...] The word is Tone. And for those of you who don't understand what I'm saying, tone is how a movie feels. Movies are either like comedies, or dramas, or action movies, or thrillers. If they waver on the tone you don't know what it is and your brain starts to hurt. Typically you should establish what your movie is in the first ten minutes or so. Take Ghostbusters. You establish your characters, they're witty and funny and the audience gets that this movie is gonna be some kind of lighthearted comedy thing with ghosts in it. There isn't a violent rape on a pinball machine in the first ten minutes of Ghostbusters. Nor is there a pie-in-the-face gag in the opening of Citizen Kane. In Revenge of the Sith, what appears to be a general space adventure film is punctuated by a brutal decapitation mixed with bizarre attempts at slapstick humor. This whole sequence from the beginning to the crash landing goes from an intense, confusing, and complicated space battle to awkward slapstick, then suddenly it becomes dark and violent, then back to awkward comedy, then I don't know what the hell the tone is supposed to be here, if it's supposed to be funny or exciting or scary... I, I, I can't feel anything."
Great job generalising all of the gaming public (which you represent too bud) into a bunch of base, mindless idiots.
Just because all games aren't of the highest sophistication doesn't mean that A) there are no games being made that achieve what you're talking about, B) Those who do enjoy less narratively heavy games do so because they don't also appreciate more mature and involved games, only watch trash movies, "television" (which i'm guessing you're also reducing all television into trash as well !), and only eat fast food and junk food.
Also, your diet has absolutely nothing to do with your appreciation for any content that would require high level thinking or subtle handling of sensitive subject matter, seriously what?
Just, that whole comment is so completely ridiculous.
His TED talk he mentioned that he thinks rather than just ignoring it and moving on, the spotlight should be put on the horrendous things people say because by ignoring it we're doing nothing to change it.
So that's why he does it, whether you think it's the right course of action is up to you to decide.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
I think that is kind of a weird comparasion to make. And is not like this years had been devoid of movies that have schriophenic moods.
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