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[ThusZarathustra]

Please. After Burial at Sea, I expect Logan's Run to be a piece of shit. Assuming it ever gets made.

I didn't play any of the Infinite DLC, but I think you're right that Levine is closer to Kojima than people might like to admit.

I've got more respect for Levine in the sense that I think Bioshock 1 and Bioshock Infinite make more successful attempts at narratively engaging with the problems of gameplay centered around the act of killing and dying. Bioshock 1 (and System Shock 2) both try to narratively engage with the idea that shooters just have you mindlessly follow kill-orders over a radio by making use of an unreliable narrator to bring that dissonance to light. Bioshock Infinite tries to narratively engage with the idea that shooters just have you die over and over and over and over again by making use of parallel universes.

For all of Bioshock's other failings, and there are many, I respect Levine's formal attempts at narrative solutions waaaaaayy more than anything Kojima's ever done. EDIT: Though MGS2 does come close...

 

[ArjanN]

Hey man, Bioshock 1+Infinite were really well-written.

I think Infinite only really works in the moment if you just sort of go with it and don't think about it too hard.

I think Levine generally has a lot of neat ideas, but so does Kojima.

Not even the grand overarching plot but smaller neat little moments, for example like in MGS2 the first time you kill an enemy as Raiden, which you're likely to do pretty thoughtlessly because videogames, your girlfriend calls you on the codec after and asks you how you feel about that, that caught me off guard and made me thing. Stuff like that.

 

[BUNTING1243]

I think Infinite only really works in the moment if you just sort of go with it and don't think about it too hard.

I think Levine generally has a lot of neat ideas, but so does Kojima.

I'd say that about the sci-fi stuff toward the end (I thought it was really interesting but I can see why people wouldn't), but I think Columbia is the single best realized world ever in a video game. I just loved the style and exploring the nooks and crannies, even after the

Spoiler

civil war broke out

 

[firehawk12]

I didn't play any of the Infinite DLC, but I think you're right that Levine is closer to Kojima than people might like to admit.

I've got more respect for Levine in the sense that I think Bioshock 1 and Bioshock Infinite make more successful attempts at narratively engaging with the problems of gameplay centered around the act of killing and dying. Bioshock 1 (and System Shock 2) both try to narratively engage with the idea that shooters just have you mindlessly follow kill-orders over a radio by making use of an unreliable narrator to bring that dissonance to light. Bioshock Infinite tries to narratively engage with the idea that shooters just have you die over and over and over and over again by making use of parallel universes.

For all of Bioshock's other failings, and there are many, I respect Levine's formal attempts at narrative solutions waaaaaayy more than anything Kojima's ever done.

I think it's a close one when it comes to just using mechanics to convey story. I mean, the Psycho Mantis controller trick is probably a classic moment in video games, perhaps as memorable as the "Would you kindly" reveal. You also have the death of boss in MGS3, and the microwave crawl in MGS4, and probably several other smaller moments that I've completely forgotten as well.

What Kojima is terrible at is the actual scripts of his games, and the fact that he is either overly self-indulgent or he has so much authority that no one is willing to tell him no - sort of like George Lucas - so we get terribly bloated and nonsensical stories. Not to mention the stupid quirks like being able to mess around with a character's breasts using the dualshock 3 motion controls in MGS4.

 

[faridmon]

People turn their nose up at the bad writing in The Walking Dead just because of that, not the themes or situations taken on their own. The Last of Us is well written by any standard, with consistent characters, subtle dialogue, and believable world building. . It's not necessarily thematically layered, but it doesn't try to be either. It isn't like Heavy Rain which had the very real issue of being laughably written by any other medium's standard.

Whilst The Last of Us storytelling is great, in any medium, its also important to point out that its simply great for what it does without hyperbole it to great heights like many people on here seem to react towards when its simply mentioned. This game being as good as it is doesn't and should not disguise the fact that, yes, we do have our standard lower than other mediums when it comes to dialogue, story-telling and narrative solutions.

However, an argument can be made the fact that video games are designed to be enjoyed as games rather than storyline exposition, but that is another issue altogether.

 

[firehawk12]

Whilst The Last of Us storytelling is great, in any medium, its also important to point out that its simply great for what it does without hyperbole it to great heights like many people on here seem to react towards when its simply mentioned. This game being as good as it is doesn't and should not disguise the fact that, yes, we do have our standard lower than other mediums when it comes to dialogue, story-telling and narrative solutions.

However, an argument can be made the fact that video games are designed to be enjoyed as games rather than storyline exposition, but that is another issue altogether.

There's a lot of suspension of disbelief that the game makes you do in order to buy into the story. The biggest example, of course, is how most people forgive the fact that the AI characters don't attract any attention during the stealth sequences.

 

[ThusZarathustra]

I think it's a close one when it comes to just using mechanics to convey story. I mean, the Psycho Mantis controller trick is probably a classic moment in video games, perhaps as memorable as the "Would you kindly" reveal. You also have the death of boss in MGS3, and the microwave crawl in MGS4, and probably several other smaller moments that I've completely forgotten as well.

What Kojima is terrible at is the actual scripts of his games, and the fact that he is either overly self-indulgent or he has so much authority that no one is willing to tell him no - sort of like George Lucas - so we get terribly bloated and nonsensical stories. Not to mention the stupid quirks like being able to mess around with a character's breasts using the dualshock 3 motion controls in MGS4.

I really liked the radiation tunnel button-mashing thing in MGS4, and I really do think Kojima has had plenty of little moments of formal brilliance like that, but the actual structure of his narratives have relatively little to do with interactivity, unlike, I think, Levine's larger narrative structures, which have interactivity and the dissonance of popular genre mechanics at their very core.

They're both weird dudes, but I get the sense that one cares about, and has thought far far more about, video games as a medium, than the other.

 

[firehawk12]

I really liked the radiation tunnel button-mashing thing in MGS4, and I really do think Kojima has had plenty of little moments of formal brilliance like that, but the actual structure of his narratives have relatively little to do with interactivity, unlike, I think, Levine's larger narrative structures, which have interactivity and the dissonance of popular genre mechanics at their very core.

They're both weird dudes, but I get the sense that one cares about, and has thought far far more about, video games as a medium, than the other.

Maybe it's because of how muddled Infinite was as a package, but I found it very uninteresting given how it said so much but also managed to say absolutely nothing. But that is also on me, since I've come to hate science fiction gimmicks and nerd culture's over reliance on them as narrative hooks.

Still, you have to admit - inserting a section from the original MGS into MGS4 in order to invoke nostalgia was a masterstroke of genius. If you played the original MGS when it came out, suddenly you are reminded of your own age and mortality, which is exactly what Snake is going through in that very moment. That whole level was very much Kojima reflecting on game development over the last decade and a half.

(Oh god, Burial at Sea has turned me into a Kojima apologist. lol)

 

[TheTylerRob]

Metal Gear Solid scripts aren't worthy of being used to wipe Ken Levine's ass, comparisons between talentless hacks and actual intelligent writers aren't appropriate.

Dog, MGS2 is like, a postmodern videogame.

 

[ThusZarathustra]

Maybe it's because of how muddled Infinite was as a package, but I found it very uninteresting given how it said so much but also managed to say absolutely nothing. But that is also on me, since I've come to hate science fiction gimmicks and nerd culture's over reliance on them as narrative hooks.

Still, you have to admit - inserting a section from the original MGS into MGS4 in order to invoke nostalgia was a masterstroke of genius. If you played the original MGS when it came out, suddenly you are reminded of your own age and mortality, which is exactly what Snake is going through in that very moment. That whole level was very much Kojima reflecting on game development over the last decade and a half.

(Oh god, Burial at Sea has turned me into a Kojima apologist. lol)

Oh totally! Like I said earlier in the thread, I think aging and obsolescence are some of the best places where Kojima has had actual thematic exploration!

 

[Emptiiness]

does klepek really have the right to criticize kojima on writing and stories when he had a hand in a movie about stoners and nude aliens -_- http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1791500/?ref_=nm_flmg_wr_1

 

[Dragon]

There's a lot of suspension of disbelief that the game makes you do in order to buy into the story. The biggest example, of course, is how most people forgive the fact that the AI characters don't attract any attention during the stealth sequences.

I'm not sure I see the relationship between that aspect of the gameplay and the storytelling and overall plot arc of the game and characters.

 

[Jimmyfenix]

does klepek really have the right to criticize kojima on writing and stories when he had a hand in a movie about stoners and nude aliens -_- http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1791500/?ref_=nm_flmg_wr_1

Lol I have never seen this before!

 

[firehawk12]

Oh totally! Like I said earlier in the thread, I think aging and obsolescence are some of the best places where Kojima has had actual thematic exploration!

If only he wasn't muddled by everything else. lol

I'm not sure I see the relationship between that aspect of the gameplay and the storytelling and overall plot arc of the game and characters.

If Ellie can walk through clickers in the video game part of the story, why does she need to sneak around in the cutscenes?
If Joel is a badass who has become harded by losing his daughter and runs weapons for some unknown group, why does he need to take pills in order to steady his weapon aim?
We just have to take that for granted because no one has figured out a way to make a game world as convincing as the "real world" represented by completely scripted scenes.

Probably the one part where the story and the game match up fairly well is in the collectibles (except those Firefly dogtags, I guess). Otherwise, there is still mostly a separation between the more videogamey aspects of the game and the cutscenes where most of the story happens.

The alternative, is of course, The Walking Dead. But I'm sure most people agree that having elaborate choose your own adventure visual novels isn't really the future of games. At least, not an interesting one.

 

[CambriaRising]

does klepek really have the right to criticize kojima on writing and stories when he had a hand in a movie about stoners and nude aliens -_- http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1791500/?ref_=nm_flmg_wr_1

No one is safe.

 

[fatigues_gasolini]

does klepek really have the right to criticize kojima on writing and stories when he had a hand in a movie about stoners and nude aliens -_- http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1791500/?ref_=nm_flmg_wr_1

He won a naming contest, he didnt write the movie.

 

[SteveWinwood]

He won a naming contest, he didnt write the movie.

Didn't they rewrite parts of the movie when he misunderstood the contest and gave them an outline of the plot as well?

He even has writer credit on it.

 

[ArjanN]

He won a naming contest, he didnt write the movie.

I'm sure his version "Evil Bong 3-D: The Wrath of Bong" would have been much more intelligent and thought provoking.

 

[Typographenia]

does klepek really have the right to criticize kojima on writing and stories when he had a hand in a movie about stoners and nude aliens -_-

I sincerely hope you're not serious.

 

[Jintor]

does klepek really have the right to criticize kojima on writing and stories when he had a hand in a movie about stoners and nude aliens -_- http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1791500/?ref_=nm_flmg_wr_1

absolutely. Roger Ebert had a hand in probably one of the dumbest movies ever made and he was still a hella respected voice in movie criticism

The alternative, is of course, The Walking Dead. But I'm sure most people agree that having elaborate choose your own adventure visual novels isn't really the future of games. At least, not an interesting one.

get out

 

[LurkerPrime]

Has there been any rumbling from Giant Bomb regarding an Elder Scrolls Online QL? I have this oddly morbid (oddorbid?) curiosity about the game that only a QL can satisfy.

 

[Dragon]

I sincerely hope you're not serious.

Ad Hominem attacks are nothing new!

 

[SteveWinwood]

absolutely. Roger Ebert had a hand in probably one of the dumbest movies ever made and he was still a hella respected voice in movie criticism



get out

You know Beyond was actually a good movie right?

 

[Jintor]

pure accident!

 

[Emptiiness]

I sincerely hope you're not serious.

i am. practice what you preach. for example he doesn't like quiet's lewd character design but he is okay with participating in this? i don't get it

 

[firehawk12]

get out

Honestly, I would be less salty about The Walking Dead if I could trust the creators to be able to create a story catered to my experience and choices. At least then I would feel like I had agency as Lee and Clem. Instead, it's just a series of prompts that seemingly lead to the same destination, and suddenly it isn't interesting to me as a video game anymore.

That and the few times they do try to add video game sequences, it never works.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

The alternative, is of course, The Walking Dead. But I'm sure most people agree that having elaborate choose your own adventure visual novels isn't really the future of games. At least, not an interesting one.

I think it is part of the future of games, but so are a lot of things.

I think video games all being the same thing in the future would be boring. I want more visual novel-like games in addition to every other kind.

 

[Haunted]

does klepek really have the right to criticize kojima on writing and stories when he had a hand in a movie about stoners and nude aliens -_- http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1791500/?ref_=nm_flmg_wr_1

Yes. Fuck, looking at that movie, it'd be a discussion on equal footing.


Jokes aside, Klepek has proven himself to be a capable journalist and he is obviously justified in calling out Kojima for his shit.

 

[Jintor]

i am. practice what you preach. for example he doesn't like quiet's lewd character design but he is okay with participating in this? i don't get it

imagine a world where the context of what you offer things in changes the ways in which they are perceived

 

[FStop7]

Remember when Tested was good?

The last episode of TIOAT was good.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Oh totally! Like I said earlier in the thread, I think aging and obsolescence are some of the best places where Kojima has had actual thematic exploration!

See, I get what are you trying to say, but I think this kind condescendence is as bad as hamfisted speeches in MGS.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I never see anyone talk about Peace Walker from a story perspective.

I quit in the first mission because I hated the controls (but I should play the HD version, which I own). I do recall, in the first five minutes, you look at a young girl's underwear.

 

[firehawk12]

I think it is part of the future of games, but so are a lot of things.

I think video games all being the same thing in the future would be boring. I want more visual novel-like games in addition to every other kind.

That's fine, but it's also much easier to write a story in that genre than it is in another genre of games.

I am kind of sad that the only way to make romance interactive is seemingly through visual novels, not because I have anything against visual novels, but because no one has figured out a way to make having a conversation as mechanically interesting as pointing a gun at someone and pulling a trigger.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

I never see anyone talk about Peace Walker from a story perspective.

Being fair, it has more to do with being a PSP title.

I quit in the first mission because I hated the controls (but I should play the HD version, which I own). I do recall, in the first five minutes, you look at a young girl's underwear.

I didn't finish after I realise that the bosses were designed as Monster Hunter ones.

 

[stupei]

Metal Gear Solid scripts aren't worthy of being used to wipe Ken Levine's ass, comparisons between talentless hacks and actual intelligent writers aren't appropriate.

It's also interesting that most people in this thread do not mention Japanese games or developers when talking about good videogame writing - just an observation. Honestly, the only recent one that comes to mind is Nier. Itoi is obviously fantastic as well, but he's not working in games anymore.

Spoiler

if you say 999 you're automatically disqualified

Because Mother 3 was never properly localized.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

I think it's a close one when it comes to just using mechanics to convey story. I mean, the Psycho Mantis controller trick is probably a classic moment in video games, perhaps as memorable as the "Would you kindly" reveal. You also have the death of boss in MGS3, and the microwave crawl in MGS4, and probably several other smaller moments that I've completely forgotten as well.

What Kojima is terrible at is the actual scripts of his games, and the fact that he is either overly self-indulgent or he has so much authority that no one is willing to tell him no - sort of like George Lucas - so we get terribly bloated and nonsensical stories. Not to mention the stupid quirks like being able to mess around with a character's breasts using the dualshock 3 motion controls in MGS4.

I just surmise he doesn't care that much any more about anything but providing for and running a studio of people.

The fact he's still in the upper echelon of AAA narrative is less praise for him and burial of others, really.

does klepek really have the right to criticize kojima on writing and stories when he had a hand in a movie about stoners and nude aliens -_- http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1791500/?ref_=nm_flmg_wr_1

You made two points, but neither the one you think you did.

Metal Gear Solid scripts aren't worthy of being used to wipe Ken Levine's ass, comparisons between talentless hacks and actual intelligent writers aren't appropriate.

It's also interesting that most people in this thread do not mention Japanese games or developers when talking about good videogame writing - just an observation. Honestly, the only recent one that comes to mind is Nier. Itoi is obviously fantastic as well, but he's not working in games anymore.

Spoiler

if you say 999 you're automatically disqualified

Lack of zeitgeist and until-recent peer pressure to not talk about them with any praise is why.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

I just surmise he doesn't care that much any more about anything but providing for and running a studio of people.

The fact he's still in the upper echelon of AAA narrative is less praise for him and burial of others, really.

I really think he is not that high in Konami to even be aat the same level of control like Lucas.

 

[firehawk12]

I just surmise he doesn't care that much any more about anything but providing for and running a studio of people.

The fact he's still in the upper echelon of AAA narrative is less praise for him and burial of others, really.

Well, it's not like there's a lot of ambition in the AAA space unfortunately.

 

[TheShampion]

That's fine, but it's also much easier to write a story in that genre than it is in another genre of games.

I am kind of sad that the only way to make romance interactive is seemingly through visual novels, not because I have anything against visual novels, but because no one has figured out a way to make having a conversation as mechanically interesting as pointing a gun at someone and pulling a trigger.

Alpha Protocol was so close, but the problem is that the choices you had pretty much were just different flavors of being an asshole, it was still really fun though (better than the gunplay, though I was playing the PS3 version which I heard was terrible).

I am not sure how well that would work in a romantic context, but it would be fun to see someone try.

I don't really see Klepek as really a critic worth following, but that is because our opinions on media are so different. Trying to discredit him because he doesn't like something seems disingenuous to me. Just say you don't like him, and move on.

Kojima loves to pander to his audience because he believes making games is about knowing what people will like (at least that is what he pretty much said on Game Center CX). That is also probably part of why he doesn't believe games are art, he is just making things that he believes people like. This doesn't dissolve him of responsibility however, because if that is what he thinks his audience wants, that is a reflection of himself (or a reflection of a reflection, which is where it gets weird).

Levine, on the other hand, rubs me the wrong way. Sometimes I feel like people praise his work so much, that it becomes impossible to live up to. Playing Bioshock after hearing all the praise was just an exercise of disappointment. I felt more immersed in Myst, and that was just a really well produced hypercard stack.

I still think people like Erik Wolpaw and Shigesato Itoi are much better, but they do more comedic stuff so most people seem to dismiss it (despite how hard it is to do comedy in a video game).

 

[Typographenia]

i am. practice what you preach. for example he doesn't like quiet's lewd character design but he is okay with participating in this? i don't get it

How Steven Spielberg could direct a film like Raiders of the Lost Ark and then expect me to take him seriously when he decides he wants to direct a film about the holocaust is beyond me. i don't get it

 

[firehawk12]

Alpha Protocol was so close, but the problem is that the choices you had pretty much were just different flavors of being an asshole, it was still really fun though (better than the gunplay, though I was playing the PS3 version which I heard was terrible).

I am not sure how well that would work in a romantic context, but it would be fun to see someone try.

Adding a time element to force a choice is interesting - and having gut "emotional" responses tied to specific buttons seems to work, but it also sort of feels like a form of QTE at some point because you're always just waiting for the prompt to come up.

And yeah, the game wasn't all that great to play unfortunately.

 

[chogidogs]

Not gonna lie, playing Ground Zeroes is making me want to finish Peace Walker. Maybe I will try again. I just wish the controls were alot better on the Vita.

 

[TheShampion]

Adding a time element to force a choice is interesting - and having gut "emotional" responses tied to specific buttons seems to work, but it also sort of feels like a form of QTE at some point because you're always just waiting for the prompt to come up.

And yeah, the game wasn't all that great to play unfortunately.

Sometimes saying the right thing on a date feels like QTE, but I see what you're saying.

It would be cool if maybe the responses would change if you waited a while (because the character thought about it or whatever). I just hope the market and mindshare of video game public gets to a place where romanic mechanics in games could be experimented and iterated upon instead of living in a theoretical space.

 

[Mr. F]

I still think people like Erik Wolpaw and Shigesato Itoi are much better, but they do more comedic stuff so most people seem to dismiss it (despite how hard it is to do comedy in a video game).

This is the real shame. Portal 2 came out 3 years ago and nothing has come even close to it since (for me at least).

 

[firehawk12]

Sometimes saying the right thing on a date feels like QTE, but I see what you're saying.

It would be cool if maybe the responses would change if you waited a while (because the character thought about it or whatever). I just hope the market and mindshare of video game public gets to a place where romanic mechanics in games could be experimented and iterated upon instead of living in a theoretical space.

Haha, that's one way to look at dating.

But there has to be a more interesting way of depicting conversations in games than just having a list of dialog options on the screen that you select.

My dream scenario is that the Kinect would let you act out conversations with NPCs and it could read your voice/body language to see if you were lying or being suspicious or aggressive or whatever. But they can't even get it to work for turning the system on, so that's probably a feature that's 10 years out at least.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Comedy during games is a strange beast, because we're so used to games being mostly objective things that can be rated. This game has good control, 10 for control. This game is technically superior to the other game that came out this year, 10 for graphics. Even the low standards for writing have people mostly nodding along to whatever "good" writing rises above the swamp.

Comedy is something we're all used to, have our own opinions on, and are not used to games really trying to handle until semi-recently. So a game could be incredibly funny to one person and just fall completely flat to another.

I think some of the funniest games are not the funniest written games. I think watching Goat Simulator is fucking hilarious, but not in the same way a scripted comedy movie is.

 

[Jintor]

If you think about a shooter system it's largely very binary because there's only one two possible results; element destroyed or player is destroyed. Perhaps there is a large possibility space in between those results to get there (slow-motion shooting, reload mechanics, 3d-space navigation etc etc etc) but the results are so binary it ends up being relatively enclosed.

Social interaction on the other hand basically has a theoretically infinite possibility space for results and therefore is much harder to account for. Also one party won't be dead when the interaction finishes.

that said I would love for people to take social mechanics and make it more interesting than dialogue options or circle of conversation or what have you

 

[FStop7]

Hay guys been away from the thread it was a crazy weekend ok just let me catch up on the last few pag--


gotta go bye

 

[Chuck]

hashtagGBthreadweekends

 

[Alo81]

Metal Gear Solid scripts aren't worthy of being used to wipe Ken Levine's ass, comparisons between talentless hacks and actual intelligent writers aren't appropriate.

It's also interesting that most people in this thread do not mention Japanese games or developers when talking about good videogame writing - just an observation. Honestly, the only recent one that comes to mind is Nier. Itoi is obviously fantastic as well, but he's not working in games anymore.

Spoiler

if you say 999 you're automatically disqualified

Yo Persona 4 was pretty good