EmCeeGramr
Member
Stop and think about what you're saying here and what people are actually arguing.
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Giant Bomb #7 | Hey There, Small Business Owner!
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Stop and think about what you're saying here and what people are actually arguing.
Backfoggen
Banned
Listening to the tapes on YT since I didn't find them on my game or whatever.
If people look for goofy shit in new MGS it's right here, applied to the least appropriate themes.
It's ok, Chico. You won't hurt me. Do you want to do it here? *romantic forced child sex music plays*
If people look for goofy shit in new MGS it's right here, applied to the least appropriate themes.
Ventilaator
Banned
Just looked the clip up on Youtube to see how it's specifically portrayed.
I would have zero problems with a silly series like MGS going to such fucked up places, if the scene was handled with care and it wasn't just the torture porn that it is.
I would have zero problems with a silly series like MGS going to such fucked up places, if the scene was handled with care and it wasn't just the torture porn that it is.
Chance Hale
Member
That tape ends with that line, there is no music afterwards.
Backfoggen
Banned
Yeah the music plays before that.
I can't. Even without the music I cannot believe that line is in the game, it actually trumps the bomb. Truly a defence force for everything.
Dr_Boris_Goltz
Banned
Kojima is a crazy person who as Jeff said, "Could quite possibly be a monster."
BUNTING1243
Banned
You really haven't been paying attention then, huh?
I just really don't think he handled
the rape scenes
EDIT: Also, how did this discussion even start? I just woke up and checked the thread. Did Patrick say something?
EvilKatarn
Member
The feeling I'm getting is that you're all riding the coattails of Jeff's "MGS has silly stuff in it" charade and taking it beyond reasonable lengths. From the games I've played MGS has a good mix of silly stuff and serious stuff. And the serious stuff works better because of the silly stuff. There's too many games that take itself way too seriously and end up just falling flat on their faces. Or games that try their best to be funny but are just cringe-worthy. MGS strikes a good balance and so far not once have I felt that it's poking fun at serious subjects, or doing them for titillation.
Yes
Haunted
Member
I don't think anything trumps this. That sound effect is just... ugh...
He wrote MGS2. No matter how stupid his games got, he will forever be a legend to me.
The Wizard
Member
Somehow I wish The Phantom pain's plot is truly as batshit insane as the fan theories make it out to be. That would at least be entertaining compared to Ground Zeroes which seems more interested in disgusting it's audience for no apparent reason,
Chance Hale
Member
I took it along the same line of depictions of people imprisoned/subjected to long periods of torture/degradation(ie, 12 years a slave/the holocaust documentary shoah) that describe people using sex as a form of comfort, even when it comes after abuse. Cold and impersonal but it takes one away from the moment. Perhaps Kojima really is just mindless but the tape seemed to be reaching along those same lines.
Rape was used as a form of intimidation but once both Paz and Chico have been degraded to such a point consensual sex is the only form of comfort left.
The film Salo has a similar element where
after months of the most horrible abuse imaginable, two of the imprisoned manage to find some degree of comfort in consensual sex
BUNTING1243
Banned
Wooooowwwwwwwwwww. That's...something.
Beelzeboss
Member
Using games with different art styles makes no damn sense
Chance Hale
Member
The underlined "I wanna be a hunter" is specifically silly as it was an obvious reference to the Monster Hunter missions included in Peace Walker.
EvilKatarn
Member
Alright I watched the ending because of this fucking thread. The most disgusting thing was the gross overuse of slow-motion.
Maybe I just can't be phased by anything after having seen Иди и смотри. That scene wasn't too bad, just the twist was kind of lame. Remember the end of MGS3? Twisty twisty.
Also, why would people call that torture porn? Everything that makes you uncomfortable is made for someone to wank it to?
Maybe I just can't be phased by anything after having seen Иди и смотри. That scene wasn't too bad, just the twist was kind of lame. Remember the end of MGS3? Twisty twisty.
Also, why would people call that torture porn? Everything that makes you uncomfortable is made for someone to wank it to?
EmCeeGramr
Member
The ending cutscene is literally just the tip of the iceberg.
BUNTING1243
Banned
What a bloody lazy rebuttal.
Its not that Kojima have handled those topic well in this game.
Chance Hale
Member
Have any of them mentioned whether Vinnyvania will continue? Says part 1 in the video but they also mention they were mostly doing it to test the chat :/
Just...wow. I really hope this happens and whatever backlash Ground Zeroes receives (if any? Haven't been keeping up) doesn't put Kojima off his crazy train. A
woman forced to rape a child causes(?) him to grow up transgender?
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Well, George Lucas made Star Wars IV-VI and Indiana Jones I-III which I adore.
He also made Star Wars I-III and Indiana Jones IV later which I hate.
People can write good stuff and still turn into hacks later.
Patrick finished the game and tweeted about it. He didn't like the game in general.
Not arguing with that. I just don't think you can say the man responsible for MGS1 2 and 3 is "a shitty writer."
Jimmyfenix
Member
Trials fusion soon! I wonder if brad will play it.
Doctor_Thomas
Member
Fact is, Ground Zeroes should make you uncomfortable. If your reaction is disgust, then it's done it's job and you are a real human being.
However, let's look at the issues it presents rather than what actually happens. The message of Metal Gear has been consistant. It's anti-war. It's not there to glamorise the events, but to criticise them.
People can be critical of the game if they want, but some people are just looking to make an issue out of the game's events rather than the real world cases, which seems to be something that exclusive happens to video games. It's a complete loss of perspective.
However, let's look at the issues it presents rather than what actually happens. The message of Metal Gear has been consistant. It's anti-war. It's not there to glamorise the events, but to criticise them.
What happens with Paz happens at a US black site in Cuba, the main villain uses every technique he possibly can to get what he needs. The abuse of women and children in war is both well documented and seriously underestimated. Rape is used in parts of the world, today, as a weapon of war. Against men and women. Some countries historically kept female prisoners in camps for the sole purpose of rape. People become prizes.
The thought of someone being made into a living bomb? This is something that is being actively discussed as a security issues, right down to potential scenarios. The thought that someone could have certain organs removed and a bomb implanted is probably a thought that doesn't sit well with most. While there have been no reports of this having happened, it's absolutely made it into news articles as potential threats. A bomb place in someone's vagina (again, there's absolutely no reason to assume it wasn't done the same way as the first through invasive surgery) is not an absolutely massive leap.
Ground Zeroes makes me uncomfortable, but not because of the fiction, but because it's not just something Kojima invented.
The thought of someone being made into a living bomb? This is something that is being actively discussed as a security issues, right down to potential scenarios. The thought that someone could have certain organs removed and a bomb implanted is probably a thought that doesn't sit well with most. While there have been no reports of this having happened, it's absolutely made it into news articles as potential threats. A bomb place in someone's vagina (again, there's absolutely no reason to assume it wasn't done the same way as the first through invasive surgery) is not an absolutely massive leap.
Ground Zeroes makes me uncomfortable, but not because of the fiction, but because it's not just something Kojima invented.
People can be critical of the game if they want, but some people are just looking to make an issue out of the game's events rather than the real world cases, which seems to be something that exclusive happens to video games. It's a complete loss of perspective.
SteveWinwood
Member
am i in the giant bomb thread or the ground zeroes spoiler thread
Revengineer
Unconfirmed Member
Just a third person perspective on the Ground Zeroes controversy -
Nothing said or argued will change that the game is out and isn't going away. If it bothers you so much, don't buy Phantom Pain.
Nothing said or argued will change that the game is out and isn't going away. If it bothers you so much, don't buy Phantom Pain.
*claps*
Thankfully Japan usually doesn't give a shit about these "issues", so we'll get to hear the story Kojima wants to tell. And, that much I'm excited for. Bring on TPP!
yup, i first thought it was my computer but everything else is working perfectly
Bingo.
EmCeeGramr
Member
A)
It was not done via invasive surgery. The doctors note that Paz is closed up, and there's no second incision on Paz's body that the medic notices. Skull Face takes the bomb himself and there is a sound effect as he, someone who is not a doctor, puts it inside her.
B)
Just because something could theoretically happen in the real world does not make a crass poorly written usage of it in a video game as base shock value any better.
You have a completely mixed up idea of why people dislike what's in Ground Zeroes. Kojima treats this stuff as a gross shock value thing and thinks that he's writing something deep and mature. It doesn't actually advance the plots or character arcs of anyone in Ground Zeroes. It's apparently not even critical enough to the plot to put in the main game's story itself. It's extraneous crap the only purpose of which is shock the player into thinking "woah this bad guy with the skeleton face is really fucked up!!! makes you think...."
Delta Assault
Member
Well, when someone has a consistent track record... yeah.
I'm imagining your reaction after Prometheus: "It honestly seems like most of you are dead set on anything written by Lindelof being stupid."
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
I feel like the fact that this kinda exists in real life makes it even worse and not better.....
That's why I don't really mind seeing a guy getting his face bitten off by an Alien but can't stand to watch any of the Saw movies.
BUNTING1243
Banned
EmCeeGramr is on point. Couldn't agree more.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Making the audience uncomfortable is not proof of good writing. It's half the equation. It's like doing a controlled explosion but not having the capability to actually control it. You can create something that offends, that makes the audience uncomfortable with an intentional point behind it, and still massively fuck it up.
adamsappel
Member
There is no subtlety to it at all. If the tape had ended with the line And a second bomb, where theyd never think to look, it would be interesting and suspenseful. Adding the *squish squish* sound effect totally destroys that.
Rape
Paz having sex with Chico ruins that. It turns it into a "it's okay, she liked it" moment (or at least opens it to that argument).
Chance Hale
Member
There's no way to know how it will affect the character development or plot given Ground Zeroes is less than 30 minutes long and clearly ripped out of a much larger whole. Much of the MGS series has had character info relegated to codec backgrounds(especially Peace Walker), and Kojima is clearly taking point that MGS 4's info dumps aren't the best way to present information.
Given The Phantom Pain's depictions of African child soldiers which is something MGS 2 already touched on it doesn't seem to be done so much as shock value but to place a series that historically used such real life war crimes further on the side of reality. Kojima seemed to realize the seriousness of the subject and all goofiness is absent from Ground Zeroes(although certainly not in some of the line readings) Then again the character of Quiet has me worried about Kojima's intentions but we will see.
Delta Assault
Member
Watching the tapes on youtube, I can't help but feel that it's even more off putting because you can see Snake in the foreground just casually chillaxing and smoking his cigar. The juxtaposition of him in that canned animation loop, not even reacting with empathy to the disgusting audio in front of him, makes it look that much worse.
Doctor_Thomas
Member
He's also on a helicopter and probably looked for other external scars. People made the leap one way, but not the other.
How do you present the events then? Call of Duty America rules and the bad guys suck style? Water pistols instead of bullets? What are you wanting from the medium if not to actually try to expand its self? No one would criticise a movie or book for this. Glorification would be crass, this is far from it.
How do you present the events then? Call of Duty America rules and the bad guys suck style? Water pistols instead of bullets? What are you wanting from the medium if not to actually try to expand its self? No one would criticise a movie or book for this. Glorification would be crass, this is far from it.
How can events that happened to two of the characters not advance their character or their arcs?
They were included in audio conversations because Ground Zeroes shows their rescue from Camp Omega. The plot of the game if you ignore all the conversations and briefing tapes is literally - Go to this camp, rescue Chico (what? How did he get there) and Paz (She's alive?!), escape on helicopter, Paz has a bomb inside her, Mother Base is under attack, bomb, crash, end, most of the narrative is in cassette format and the entire briefing and Paz's diary are unlcoked from the start. The only place any of the torture and rape could possibly be documented is in historical records. Peace Walker did EXACTLY the same thing, but expanding on the events through the cassettes. A lot stuff in Metal Gear games has been told through optional conversations or things that are not obvious.
EmCeeGramr
Member
You are being deliberately difficult if you are trying to deny the implications there and what is actually said in the tapes.
"If you criticize a disgusting lame parade of shock value, then you must be a baby that wants a sanitized Call of Duty."
The way for the medium to expand itself is not through Kojima's crass self-glorification of his own "boldness" in handling difficult subjects with the care of a bull in a china shop. And plenty of books and movies have been criticized for disgusting pointless shock value crap. What world are you living in?
Agreed. Ground Zeroes is a poorly written game that is ripped out of a larger whole and does not work in the slightest because of it.
It also doesn't really help that
Paz is dead now. She was beaten, tortured, raped, raped again, cut open, vivisected alive and had her guts pulled out so a bomb could fit in her guts, had a bomb fisted up her vagina, brutally had the guts bomb ripped out while she was still conscious, then exploded when her vagina bomb blows up. What does that tell us about Paz? Nothing. What does it tell us about Skull Face? Nothing that merely one or two of those things could have done on their own. What does it tell us about Kojima? A whole lot.
Delta Assault
Member
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Amazing. lol
Having not played Ground Zeroes, I guess I can only talk out of my ass, but Spec Ops: The Line shows how you can do something interesting with a war story that goes beyond the blandness of a Call of Duty/Battlefield campaign.
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