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Giant Bomb #9 | More Dan Meets The Eye

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firehawk12

Subete no aware
Being forthcoming about putting your game on hold =/= silently pulling the plug
It's all about spin and how you take it. They're pulling it out of EA and ending development before completing the promised features. I suppose they're not running away like that team doing the dinosaur game, but they're also not delivering a game that meets the expectations they gave people who bought into it early.
 

daydream

Banned
lets fight

So it has come to this.

parappa-the-rapper-chtuqlh.gif


It's all about spin and how you take it. They're pulling it out of EA and ending development before completing the promised features. I suppose they're not running away like that team doing the dinosaur game, but they're also not delivering a game that meets the expectations they gave people who bought into it early.

Well, I made my case re: Early Access earlier. This was just about their statement which was obviously not 100% transparent (probably because the official announcement was in the works) but in all fairness, the guy didn't say they wouldn't cancel the game.

The problem is that it truly looks that way.

I disagree. There's no good way to handle that stuff that would make everyone (or anyone) happy.
 

Fox318

Member
So it has come to this.

parappa-the-rapper-chtuqlh.gif




Well, I made my case re: Early Access earlier. This was just about their statement which was obviously not 100% transparent (probably because the official announcement was in the works) but in all fairness, the guy didn't say they wouldn't cancel the game.

Nice stealth edit
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
I disagree. There's no good way to handle that stuff that would make everyone (or anyone) happy.
I think consumers are not used to taking the risk on these things. Kickstarter seems to be a big shock to a lot of people, especially from people who have bought into campaigns that have completely failed.

The thing is, no dev is going to say "If more people don't buy my game, I'm going to quit". But that's probably the disclaimer that needs to be on all these games now.
 

daydream

Banned
I think consumers are not used to taking the risk on these things. Kickstarter seems to be a big shock to a lot of people, especially from people who have bought into campaigns that have completely failed.

The thing is, no dev is going to say "If more people don't buy my game, I'm going to quit". But that's probably the disclaimer that needs to be on all these games now.

Sure, I guess DF is just unlucky that they're one of the early (big) devs who are setting a precedent for this. Like you said, it's definitely something people need to get used to from now on. Being able to cancel a project is a right Early Access devs need to have.
 

Myggen

Member
I think consumers are not used to taking the risk on these things. Kickstarter seems to be a big shock to a lot of people, especially from people who have bought into campaigns that have completely failed.

The thing is, no dev is going to say "If more people don't buy my game, I'm going to quit". But that's probably the disclaimer that needs to be on all these games now.

Yup. As Patrick said, games get cancelled all the time, the difference is that we now get to see that first-hand because of Kickstarter (and to a lesser extent Early Access). The normal model is for devs to announce games when they're pretty far in development, and few of those games get cancelled at that point. We normally don't hear about the game that are cancelled, or at least we don't hear about it before after the fact. With Kickstarter people get in on the ground floor, so we'll see a lot more cancellations going forward for a variety of reasons. The fact that a lot of the people who contribute to Kickstarter feel an "ownership" of that project helps to make the reaction even worse when something happens.

If you're cancelling a project you need to at the very least be able to show that you didn't just take the money and run, and you need to be open and transparent about it.
 
Sure, I guess DF is just unlucky that they're one of the early (big) devs who are setting a precedent for this. Like you said, it's definitely something people need to get used to from now on. Being able to cancel a project is a right Early Access devs need to have.

And a big warning for the consumer about that.
 
Being forthcoming about putting your game on hold =/= silently pulling the plug

They weren't saying that they would loudly pull the plug - the clear implication is that they wouldn't abandon the game to begin with.

I'm curious to see if GB mentions the Spacebase debacle on the Bombcast at all. I suppose if they say anything it will be a very diplomatic "that's a bummer for both parties" before moving on. I suppose I can't really blame them for not wanting to burn bridges... but it would be interesting to hear their real thoughts on these issues.
 
They weren't saying that they would loudly pull the plug - the clear implication is that they wouldn't abandon the game to begin with.

I'm curious to see if GB mentions the Spacebase debacle on the Bombcast at all. I suppose if they say anything it will be a very diplomatic "that's a bummer for both parties" before moving on. I suppose I can't really blame them for not wanting to burn bridges... but it would be interesting to hear their real thoughts on these issues.

Jeff is (was?) pretty open about his disdain about the concept.
 

Fantastapotamus

Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Is probably a tad anti consumer of me to say, but I kinda fall into the caveat emptor camp re early access.

I agree with that, though I also think that DF deserves the criticism it got. If there was a serious possibility of a lawsuit that would be too much but I don't have problems with some well deserved (if probably pretty hyperbolic) criticism. Like putting the game on sale a month before announcing they are gonna drop it? That's pretty fucked up.
 
They weren't saying that they would loudly pull the plug - the clear implication is that they wouldn't abandon the game to begin with.

I'm curious to see if GB mentions the Spacebase debacle on the Bombcast at all. I suppose if they say anything it will be a very diplomatic "that's a bummer for both parties" before moving on. I suppose I can't really blame them for not wanting to burn bridges... but it would be interesting to hear their real thoughts on these issues.

Alex was being pretty real on the morning show, to the point that I felt the ever diplomatic Patrick being a bit taken aback.
 

Myggen

Member
They weren't saying that they would loudly pull the plug - the clear implication is that they wouldn't abandon the game to begin with.

I'm curious to see if GB mentions the Spacebase debacle on the Bombcast at all. I suppose if they say anything it will be a very diplomatic "that's a bummer for both parties" before moving on. I suppose I can't really blame them for not wanting to burn bridges... but it would be interesting to hear their real thoughts on these issues.

Well, they weren't very harsh on the Yogscast stuff when that happened, and that was waaaay worse than this. Jeff seems to be in the "Kickstart/EA at your own risk" camp, so when it happens he just shrugs unless it's a downright scam. I also doubt saying negative things about this would burn any bridges, Alex already has.
 

Rapstah

Member
I totally hold what Double Fine did against Double Fine if some people in this thread who really like some people at Double Fine want to yell at me because I don't like something some people at Double Fine did.
 

Jintor

Member
I agree with that, though I also think that DF deserves the criticism it got. If there was a serious possibility of a lawsuit that would be too much but I don't have problems with some well deserved (if probably pretty hyperbolic) criticism. Like putting the game on sale a month before announcing they are gonna drop it? That's pretty fucked up.

I can't say df have my respect re early access any longer, tbh.

Not that I back early access at all anymore. I did kickstart a few games, mostly what I thought were sure fire bets. Only thing that hasn't dropped is clang
 
Well, they weren't very harsh on the Yogscast stuff when that happened, and that was waaaay worse than this. I also doubt saying negative things about this would burn any bridges, Alex already has.

I dunno, it just seems waaay worse when this sort of thing happens to a company as old as Double Fine, instead of some meagre start-up indie dev that had no idea what they were doing to begin with.

Also, Alex burning bridges is no surprise. He's already put in his resignation.
Alex is probably going to join Rock, Paper, Shotgun's punning legions, if that headline is any indication.


For the record, in case there was any doubt, Alex is awesome. He is the much-needed Master of Snark at Giant Bomb.

Alex was being pretty real on the morning show, to the point that I felt the ever diplomatic Patrick being a bit taken aback.

Hm. I don't ever watch the morning show, but now I'll have to check it out.

I totally hold what Double Fine did against Double Fine if some people in this thread who really like some people at Double Fine want to yell at me because I don't like something some people at Double Fine did.

They made Psychonauts and gave me Mr. Pokeylope, how could you hate them.... you monster. ;-;
 

Aaron

Member
Alex was being pretty real on the morning show, to the point that I felt the ever diplomatic Patrick being a bit taken aback.
Why I like Alex. The capacity for being real is sorely lacking in videogames, even at GB where it usually ends up being passed off as a joke.
 

Ketch

Member
When has GB not been upfront about what they think?

If they act like it's not that big of deal, it's because they think it's not that big of deal.

Participating in Kick starters and early access is just like pre-ordering: stupid. If you pitch into a kick starter, buy EA or preorder the next big thing and get burnt it's your own dumb fault.

I'm sorry it's a little blunt, but here's a pro-tip: don't spend money on games that aren't released yet.
 

Fantastapotamus

Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Looking at the forums the Gang Beasts guys might regret teaming up with DF right now. Seems like people are just posting they're "DF STEALS MONEY FROM ORPHANS" everywhere were DF is mentioned.
As much as I dislike what DF did with SB DF 9 the amount of rage is, as usual, so over-the-top it's hilarious for somebody who isn't involved.

Coming up on Giant Bomb: Quick Look: The Hat Man: Shadow Ward

GBeast Quick Look? GBeast Quick Look.

Or Drew/Dan

That reminds me: Wasn't Alex talking about some feature where he plays awful games with Vinny some (long) time ago? I think it was called something with "Dread"? Can't remember now.
 

Myggen

Member
I dunno, it just seems waaay worse when this sort of thing happens to a company as old as Double Fine, instead of some meagre start-up indie dev that had no idea what they were doing to begin with.

I'd argue that taking 400k (if I remember it correctly) and not putting out anything at all except a few cries for help in form of some dev diaries on YT is worse than putting your game up on EA, and still releasing an unfinished version of the game. I guess I don't see the big difference between DF doing it and some clueless indie dev, unless you assume that DF did it with intent from the start. I agree that DF should've known better, but the end result is the end result no matter who the dev is.

That said, as I argued earlier, I agree with Alex on this. This shows that DF has some serious business issues in form of how they plan stuff, and they're gonna struggle going forward if they want to go back to the crowdfunding model. It doesn't reflect well on the company at all.

Looking at the forums the Gang Beasts guys might regret teaming up with DF right now. Seems like people are just posting they're "DF STEALS MONEY FROM ORPHANS" everywhere were DF is mentioned.
As much as I dislike what DF did with SB DF 9 the amount of rage is, as usual, so over-the-top it's hilarious for somebody who isn't involved..

Doubt that's gonna have much impact on Gang Beasts. Nothing's as impotent as a boycott by gamers.
 
I think it's sucky that Double Fine had to stop development, and I feel bad for the people who bought it, but I see why DF did it. The game wasn't making money, and it didn't have the success they hoped for. There's only so long a company (especially one with limited funds like Double Fine) can sink money into a product that, chances are, will never be a money maker. My view on Early Access is the same as Kickstarter, don't spend money on an EA/Kickstarter product if you can't afford to or are not willing to take the risk that the money might suddenly disappear and you get nothing in return.
 

Volotaire

Member
There were a few interesting tweets on Twitter a few days ago. All this Gamergate nonsense (could they not have picked a different term from the good digital store Gamersgate?) seems to be affecting developers in regards to their kick-starters and funding as well. I wonder if these Gamergate debaters realise that only a minority of the 'enthusiast' gamers even care about the issue. Was this Twitter argument at all related to Gamersgate, or more to do with the kickstarter crowd-funding structure and platform itself? I think it is the latter.

EDIT: This does not mean we shouldn't question the components of kickstarter funding.

 
Looking at the forums the Gang Beasts guys might regret teaming up with DF right now. Seems like people are just posting they're "DF STEALS MONEY FROM ORPHANS" everywhere were DF is mentioned.
As much as I dislike what DF did with SB DF 9 the amount of rage is, as usual, so over-the-top it's hilarious for somebody who isn't involved.

This is the worst part. Gang Beasts should be the premiere wrestling game, but I can see why a relation to Double Fine may hold it back.

StealthEdit: LMAO Jintor. Damn.
 

daydream

Banned
Alex layin the damn law about wolf among us.

3 stars or 60/100 bro

I really liked the first episode. I should play more of that game. Will probably marathon it before the GOTYcasts, same way I did with TWD S01. Although I'm not expecting the same amount of discussion about TWD if resident Wolfman was not really feeling it.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Sure, I guess DF is just unlucky that they're one of the early (big) devs who are setting a precedent for this. Like you said, it's definitely something people need to get used to from now on. Being able to cancel a project is a right Early Access devs need to have.
Yup. As Patrick said, games get cancelled all the time, the difference is that we now get to see that first-hand because of Kickstarter (and to a lesser extent Early Access). The normal model is for devs to announce games when they're pretty far in development, and few of those games get cancelled at that point. We normally don't hear about the game that are cancelled, or at least we don't hear about it before after the fact. With Kickstarter people get in on the ground floor, so we'll see a lot more cancellations going forward for a variety of reasons. The fact that a lot of the people who contribute to Kickstarter feel an "ownership" of that project helps to make the reaction even worse when something happens.

If you're cancelling a project you need to at the very least be able to show that you didn't just take the money and run, and you need to be open and transparent about it.
I think the thing with other games being cancelled is that EA doesn't ask me to give them 60 bucks to make a Steven Spielberg game (LMNO) and then tell me "too bad, so sad" when they cancel it and move on to another project.

There's a Kickstarter I backed called Hero-U, from the makers of Quest For Glory. The game is late as hell, but they are still working on it.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1878147873/hero-u-rogue-to-redemption/posts/941777#comments
Well, at least we're telling the truth about it. :) As for consequences, they're severe - Lori and I have gone almost $100K into debt and are not taking a salary until we release the game. So yes, we believe in consequences and dealing with them. But we don't believe in rushing a game.

Now, I really don't know how I feel. On the one hand, I don't want people to lose their homes in order to make a game that I paid 20 bucks for. But on the other hand, 20 bucks is still 20 bucks, so I would appreciate if they gave me a finished product, so I am happy that they are still working on the game.

Ultimately, the risks should be placed up front - "If 10,000 people don't buy this game, then we will shut down development" - but the financial pain should be felt by the developer, not the consumer.
 
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