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Giant Bomb |OT32| I've been meaning to love a boat

J

JeremyEtcetera

Unconfirmed Member
When I watch Kingdom heartache, I keep asking myself "Where is this series failing in viewership and likes compared to Metal Gear Scanlon?" and I think I get why because there are a few reasons.

One of the first reasons is apathy. In general in media, is not entertaining to watch two people not giving a fuck and actively not wanting to participate in something. That makes the audience also go "well why should I care if they don't?" and that's not a good thing. I feel like Vinny should have stepped in and warned Ben about making the series this way. I won't say every episode suffers from this. Obviously the episodes with Brad, Jason, and Abby are good because you need at least one other person with general enthusiasm/energy over what is happening on screen. So the rotating guests are not an issue but rather if the new guest completely ignores the content or acts with disdain is the larger issue here. We already have Ben doing that so we don't need another person doing the same.

Reason number two has to do with Ben's attitude towards the game versus Drew's attitude towards MGS. Remember, both MGS 1 and KH 1 did not age well, and yet Metal Gear Scanlon 1 was way more entertaining than most of the Kingdom Heartache episodes. Why? Because no matter how frustrated Drew became, he had the guidance and help of an enthusiastic co-host(Dan) and also because in general he was curious. He was curious about the story, what new mechanics the game would throw at him next, about new gear he acquired and about getting better at the game. He kept giving it more of a chance no matter how bad it got or how many episodes he had to repeat the same sequences, because of his general interest. Ben, on the other hand has no co-host who'd assist him with the game(instead he wastes screen time googling a half decent walkthrough which I don't know how anyone can find these moments enthralling), occasionally ignores story bits, shows barely to no interest in the Disney aspect, shows no interest in what new things the game might throw at him, and shows no interest in actively trying to improve. It's like he is playing a monotonous clicker game while rarely looking at a menu every now and then, and ends up in the same situations due to his non interest.

The third and final reason is because it shows within the quality of the show itself. Camera is constantly blurred, mic quality varies, and even in the latest episode Abby had no sound, which is one of the best things about KH is the soundtrack and sound design. I keep waiting for someone to pull Ben aside and show him that this series is tanking views and even making people so upset that they won't sub or resub, which is literally the opposite effect of MG Scanlon, but I don't know if that will happen at this rate.

Like I said before, both KH 1 and MGS 1 don't hold up but you can see a clear difference in entertainment quality between the two features. This isn't an opinion of a fan of either game. This is an opinion of a person who recognizes bad quality entertainment when he sees it. I wouldn't want first time viewers of GB to see this series on their YouTube because they would lose potential future subs. This should also be a lesson to others who might get into streaming or entertainment of what not to do.
 

Phediuk

Member
I'm glad the discussion has shifted to Kingdom Hearts, because if we want to talk about "games that were always bad", there's an actual worthy contender.

I thought it was accepted for at least a few years after release that it was a pretty lousy game held up by the bizarre concept of Final Fantasy + Disney, but now a new generation seems to have grown up thinking it was legitimately some kind of masterpiece.
 

Harpuia

Member
Yeah the general air of aimlessness has pushed me away from keeping up with heartache.


Remember, both MGS 1 and KH 1 did not age well

Hold the phone partner.

I think MGS1 has held up remarkably well. there's something to be said about the simplicity of its controls.


Which is not something I'd say about MGS2. Despite how amazing the other parts of that game are.
 

patapuf

Member
I'm glad the discussion has shifted to Kingdom Hearts, because if we want to talk about "games that were always bad", there's an actual worthy contender.

I thought it was accepted for at least a few years after release that it was a pretty lousy game held up by the bizarre concept of Final Fantasy + Disney, but now a new generation seems to have grown up thinking it was legitimately some kind of masterpiece.

I had legit fun with KH. I was a kid, and the setting/story helped, but i'll take the KH series over quite a few other ARPG's.

It's not a masterpiece, but i don't think they are bad games either. At least they weren't back then. We have got a few really great ARPG's since then.
 
J

JeremyEtcetera

Unconfirmed Member
Um, did you just put MGS1 on the same level of KH? buddy...

Yeah the general air of aimlessness has pushed me away from keeping up with heartache.




Hold the phone partner.

I think MGS1 has held up remarkably well. there's something to be said about the simplicity of its controls.


Which is not something I'd say about MGS2. Despite how amazing the other parts of that game are.

Regardless of whether or not you personally think MGS1 has held up, both of you need to see the larger point here as to why MG Scanlon is a success and KHeartache is not.
 

oti

Banned
I'm glad the discussion has shifted to Kingdom Hearts, because if we want to talk about "games that were always bad", there's an actual worthy contender.

I thought it was accepted for at least a few years after release that it was a pretty lousy game held up by the bizarre concept of Final Fantasy + Disney, but now a new generation seems to have grown up thinking it was legitimately some kind of masterpiece.
Kingdom Hearts 2 and Birth By Sleep are better than all the Sonic games combined.

I don't think anyone, and I really do mean anyone, would say the beginning of Kingdom Hearts was good. Or that the games are amasterpieces. They're just solid action RPGs with a Disney bonus. Super high production values, Disney nostalgia, an amazing soundtrack that after all these years is still amazing and relevant.

Sonic is just tumblr meme garbage nowadays and now Sonic Mania.
 

PowerTaxi

Banned
That was an unfortunate slip of the tongue, but that word was a part of a lot of people's vocabulary growing up, especially Ryan and Jeff's age, so it's not a surprise it could slip out. I still occasionally use retarded as a pejorative and always feel bad afterwards.

There's never been a time in anyone's life that's currently alive where the N word was an acceptable word where you could use it in your regular life often enough that it could just slip out in a moment of anger.

Yeah, don't get me wrong. I've said words or things to people I regret instantly.

The comparison of the two situations( and Max's too) is just brain dead stupid to me.
 

BTA

Member
what if Kingdom Hearts and Sonic are both enjoyable properties that there's really nothing gained in dunking on
 
People need to realize that Kingdom Heartache is really West's version of Blue Bombin' -- a video chat session, but this time not even the person playing cares about the game.

Which is appropriate, as the game is Kingdom Hearts.

Comparing KH to MGS is laughable.

kingdom Heartache is a success, unless you care way too much (read: any amount) about Kingdom Hearts.

I don't remember all the tears and screams when the Shenmue endurance run happened. I loved Shenmue when it came out -- but it is a bad game, and that is OK.

We don't need thirty treatises an hour about how Kingdom Heartache would only be good if it took Kingdom Hearts seriously.

Nah dude, Kingdom Hearts sucks -- and that's OK. Enjoy Ben's Disneyland story and the explanation on what a Funny Animal is.
 

Phediuk

Member
Sonic is just tumblr meme garbage nowadays and now Sonic Mania.

gr6xJkl.png
 

Teddified

Member
I think it'd be a little better at least if Ben just consulted a guide every time, cause he doesn't really pay attention to the dialogue enough and being lost for 20 min is kinda boring.

Either that or pay more attention.....
lol will never happen.
 

oti

Banned
what if Kingdom Hearts and Sonic are both enjoyable properties that there's really nothing gained in dunking on

Ah come on now. It's Kingdom Hearts and Sonic. If there are two series to dunkel on, it's these two. We're talking about video games here. We're just having fun.

But DAMN at those Youtube views for today's episode of Kingdom Heartache. This feature is tanking really fast.
 

BTA

Member
Oh, there was one post mentioning Ryan but with no attribution.


Even reading the one post mentioning it, I still don't know who said what where.

If you go through the several post long chain of people quoting each other the context should be more or less clear. Admittedly no one directly linked to the thread or anything, but still.
 
I don't remember all the tears and screams when the Shenmue endurance run happened. I loved Shenmue when it came out -- but it is a bad game, and that is OK.

There was an entire gaming thread (not GB community) full of it. Pages upon pages of people freaking out about how they aren't playing it right, etc.

Tarzan is the worst world in KH1, bar none. Things should improve after they beat this world. Monstro can be confusing but still not as bad as Tarzan.
 

oti

Banned
Kingdom Hearts is stupid. They should totally just shit on it all the time if they feel like it. But this feature just isn't entertaining at all. And it's not like Blue Bombin. With Mega Man you can decide what you want to pay attention to. Alex playing or the rest of them talking. That's not really the case with Heartache.

I really think the feature is just bad and they should scrap it.

Sonic fans think Sonic is great. Yay! Very helpful.

Brad playing Sonic is more relevant than those reviews. He didn't get Sonic back then and he still doesn't get it. Because Sonic Mania is the same, asks the same, does the same. The same messy gameplay formula. It's its own thing. Great. But come on.
 

- J - D -

Member
GB's freewheeling nature means Heartache will probably continue on unguided by the senior members of the site. It's Ben's rope and he'll do what he wants with it.
 

Phediuk

Member
Sonic fans think Sonic is great. Yay! Very helpful.

Ah yes, games journalists, well-known Sonic fanboys. Sonic games always get high scores!

or alternatively, Sonic Mania's just a damn good game, the reviewers recognize it as such, and Brad is simply terrible at it.
 
Kingdom Hearts is stupid. They should totally just shit on it all the time if they feel like it. But this feature just isn't entertaining at all. And it's not like Blue Bombin. With Mega Man you can decide what you want to pay attention to. Alex playing or the rest of them talking. That's not really the case with Heartache.

I really think the feature is just bad and they should scrap it.

Steal My Sunshine has a fun betting gimmick and the contestants are consistent. The rotating guests of KHeartache is a weak gimmick and just makes it a worse Let's Play. Brad and Jason, the anime experts, should both be on the couch with him throughout taking turns or something.
 
J

JeremyEtcetera

Unconfirmed Member
People need to realize that Kingdom Heartache is really West's version of Blue Bombin' -- a video chat session, but this time not even the person playing cares about the game.

Which is appropriate, as the game is Kingdom Hearts.

Comparing KH to MGS is laughable.

kingdom Heartache is a success, unless you care way too much (read: any amount) about Kingdom Hearts.

I don't remember all the tears and screams when the Shenmue endurance run happened. I loved Shenmue when it came out -- but it is a bad game, and that is OK.

We don't need thirty treatises an hour about how Kingdom Heartache would only be good if it took Kingdom Hearts seriously.

Nah dude, Kingdom Hearts sucks -- and that's OK. Enjoy Ben's Disneyland story and the explanation on what a Funny Animal is.

One of the things you have to realize when you are a fan of giant bomb is that not every piece of content they put out is good. You don't have to defend a bad series. Also once again, even though I stated twice that this isn't about how good or bad he is playing the game, I will state again that it is mainly about the rest of the reasons I presented above and how it isn't good entertainment in general. Apathy is the opposite of entertainment. You need to realize what makes blue bombing a good series and what makes this a bad one and why they contrast. Hint: it is not the gameplay. If you truly enjoy seeing general viewer disdain at a series full of apathetic people then there might be an issue.

This goes out to anyone who is genuinely a fan of this series and keeps wanting to defend it: you don't have to be a blind fan of content and accept everything that is thrown at you. You ha e to critique and point out bad features as well so that the staff can improve their content. If you want proof of how accepting everything is a terrible way of being a fan, look no further than the dragon Ball super OT thread and how accepting people are of the endless plotholes and powerups there have been.
 

oti

Banned
Steal My Sunshine has a fun betting gimmick and the contestants are consistent. The rotating guests of KHeartache is a weak gimmick and just makes it a worse Let's Play. Brad and Jason, the anime experts, should both be on the couch with him throughout taking turns or something.
Heartache needs a lot of work. Kingdom Hearts is not an easy game to make an entertaining format out of. As much as we dunk on Sunshine, the secret levels alone make Steal My Sunshine. Kingdom Hearts just doesn't have something like that.

And yet, this was the first feature Ben came up with? That's just a huge bummer. I'm not counting Dota. If they just want to play Dota, let them. They're not pretending it to be anything but Dota and that's fine. But if you want to make Kingdom Hearts entertaining, you need better ideas than this.
 

Zaph

Member
Regardless of whether or not you personally think MGS1 has held up, both of you need to see the larger point here as to why MG Scanlon is a success and KHeartache is not.

It's pretty obvious why - MGScanlon was born out of Dan wanting to show Drew his all-time favourite series of games. KH is this weird gawking because Ben kinda wanted to play it as a way of playing with everyone on staff?

A 5 minute search of any GB community would've told him people are sick of videos where West look like they don't want to be there and are just running down the clock. But I suppose Ben had to learn West's stubbornness sooner or later.
 
One of the things you have to realize when you are a fan of giant bomb is that not every piece of content they put out is good. You don't have to defend a bad series. Also once again, even though I stated twice that this isn't about how good or bad he is playing the game, I will state again that it is mainly about the rest of the reasons I presented above and how it isn't good entertainment in general. Apathy is the opposite of entertainment. You need to realize what makes blue bombing a good series and what makes this a bad one and why they contrast. Hint: it is not the gameplay. If you truly enjoy seeing general viewer disdain at a series full of apathetic people then there might be an issue.

Of course not all GB content is good. Look at anything related to DOTA.

Them earnestly playing Kingdom Hearts would be bad, and quite worse than Kingdom Heartache.

I enjoy Heartache as I can play a game and listen to Ben and someone else shoot the shit for an hour.

In general, I'm really sick of people here shitting on content they don't like -- such as UPF.


You don't have to watch every video they put out. If you don't like it, go watch something else and stop shitting up this thread on hot take #6254738 on why UPF/KH/etc is terrible.

Notice how the majority of people don't care for DOTA, but are considerate enough to leave their anti-DOTA-content comments to playful snark? Get the hint.
 
Steal My Sunshine has a fun betting gimmick and the contestants are consistent. The rotating guests of KHeartache is a weak gimmick and just makes it a worse Let's Play. Brad and Jason, the anime experts, should both be on the couch with him throughout taking turns or something.

The gimmick killed Heartache. The idea of someone roping people into a feature that they don't want to participate in is something GB does a lot actually, it's just it's usually Dan and he plays "the super enthusiastic in the face of all evidence to the contrary" role well. Ben feels miscasted in that role and would have worked better with a consistent partner without an ill-fitting gimmick that was never funny. The Brad/Dave/Abby episodes were better because they leaned less on this and it's not a coincidence that the Jeff episode was the absolute nadir.
 
J

JeremyEtcetera

Unconfirmed Member
Of course not all GB content is good. Look at anything related to DOTA.

Them earnestly playing Kingdom Hearts would be bad, and quite worse than Kingdom Heartache.

I enjoy Heartache as I can play a game and listen to Ben and someone else shoot the shit for an hour.

After looking at it long and hard, my solution for this feature isn't them earnestly playing the game, the solution is to stop the series. Even with them shooting the shit for an hour, half of that is Ben saying the same jokes from last episode while commenting on disney content. It's repeated commentary. They have dropped other series before and this one can go to.
 
KH is nothing like Blue Bombin'. That's seriously grasping at straws. Maybe it ended up as a random let's shoot the shit feature but that's not the impetus with starting a video series on a story-heavy series. Heartache doesn't have an identity beyond the rotating seat gimmick which if I had to guess I'd say was born out of necessity because no one could or wanted to be on it every week. Which makes you wonder why they did it at all but I've complained enough about the feature and I stopped watching it a few weeks ago.
 

ArjanN

Member
Regardless of whether or not you personally think MGS1 has held up, both of you need to see the larger point here as to why MG Scanlon is a success and KHeartache is not.

I just don't think you can ignore that a big part of the reason that the MGSCanlon worked better is that MGS always was and still is a much better game than any of the Kingdom Hearts games.

KH is nothing like Blue Bombin'. That's seriously grasping at straws. Maybe it ended up as a random let's shoot the shit feature but that's not the impetus with starting a video series on a story-heavy series. Heartache doesn't have an identity beyond the rotating seat gimmick which if I had to guess I'd say was born out of necessity because no one could or wanted to be on it every week. Which makes you wonder why they did it at all but I've complained enough about the feature and I stopped watching it a few weeks ago.

I think it's just because Ben was curious about them and probably hoping it might surprise him postiively. The gimmick is probably not that far off from reality in that none of the other guys at GB care about Kingdom Hearts.
 
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