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[Arsenic Yellow]

Whatever you do, don't pick on them, that will only make them get larger and more painful. They will come and go on their own unless you mess with them.

 

[Zoe]

I've only ever had them "come", not "go".

In the end I wind up pinching off the really annoying ones... Had a stubborn one that came back a couple of times right where my sports bra lies.

 

[iirate]

Best thing Halo implemented was mute/audio team only and then XBox later had private chats. Sure was tiring being called a cunt, faggot, fat ugly whore. Didn't matter if I kicked their ass, it made them more vitriolic even.

This. I mostly play SP stuff, but a couple of months ago, I entered a Hearthstone tournament where TeamSpeak and a mic were required. I played one of the tournaments organizers early on and won. He went back to the lobby, and I guess not realizing I also returned, started talking about me:

opponent: I just lost to a ten year old.

someone else: I'm pretty sure <iirate's> a girl.

opponent: I JUST LOST TO A GIRL?

Cool, so losing to someone still in elementary school is apparently less insulting than losing to me, who has been playing cards games for over 15 years. Swell.

I guess I lucked out with my WoW raiding experience though, as there were always skilled women raiding alongside me. During TBC, the two best healers in the guild, one of our main mages, and one of our core tanks were all women. We were top 100 US, and second best on our server(behind a guild that was top 5 worldwide). We all had to turn down constant poaching attempts from rival guilds.

I've only ever had them "come", not "go".

In the end I wind up pinching off the really annoying ones... Had a stubborn one that came back a couple of times right where my sports bra lies.

I've only had one, but it's been with me since I was ten or so. It's right under my right pit too, so shaving is a pain and I've nicked it a couple of times. Really annoying.

 

[sploatee]

I think a lot of the problems with getting females to feel accepted in gaming have to do with the maturity level of the males who have a great deal of time to dedicate to playing games.

Twitch style online games are weighted toward the young, both in amount of free time and in speed of reflexes. It is simply harder for a grownup with kids or full time work to be online as much. So the prevailing age may be up through college ages.

It's normal for boys and girls to go through a "cooties" stage pre-puberty. Then puberty hits and the opposite gender is suddenly attractive (assuming the average person is straight due to percentages). But years of divisiveness mean that they haven't developed skills for interacting with the opposite gender. Also throw in some stats about girls in school are called on to give answers only maybe 40% of the time, and how all-girl schools have students with higher grades across the board - but especially in math and science. It shows a systemic suppression of interest in mixed gender groups. Perhaps females are more likely to adapt to receive positive feedback from peers?

Now throw in some teen angst about how nothing Mom likes could be "cool", and you get young males who truly resent grown women invading their sphere.

It all causes this bizarre mix of wanting girls to play too, but abusing the ones that show up until they give in and stop talking.

Personally, i have a male cousin who i grew up with, who is an utter douchebag. He had all the "girls have cooties" issues mixed with the "my system is better" console wars issues. Now, anytime i hear/read someone saying a phrase that he would say, i dismiss them as another douchebag. I don't know whether that's fair, but it's my emotional baggage. I do seem to find an endless stream of cousin clones online.

I can't speak to working in the industry.

I can say, over sexualization turns me off of specific games. Neither my sister nor i wanted to buy Dragon's Crown, for instance. It's not entirely about the art either, although i'm sick and tired of it. It's the vocal attitude of people who are only interested because of "booberess", as i've heard her called. I just don't want to attend that party.

Obviously, i don't speak for every female on that score.

I'm speaking from a position of relative ignorance, but the footage I have seen of the average age of CoD players completely puts me off. It may be my own pre-prejudice (is that a thing?) but I just wouldn't feel that comfortable (as a woman of early 30's vintage) playing with a bunch of pubescent boys.

I think you make some interesting points about socialisation. I'm not quite sure what the answer is, but I think there's still an historic assumption that the more physical 'skill' a task requires, the more suited to men it is. It's utter bobbins, of course, but I think this carries over to gaming. Twitchy, supposedly 'hardcore' games are supposedly 'male' while 'casual' games are supposedly 'female'. I find it really depressing actually and I worry about the effect it has on young girls who could be being raised in such an environment. Self-limiting because of gender is such a tragedy.

Oh, and on the sexualisation point, I'm kind of laid-back. Virulent objectification is unhealthy. But isn't the DC artwork in the context of hyper-sexualised, hyper-stylised mega-adolescent fantasy artwork? (I'm not an expert, I'm late to the DC controversy. I tried Muramasa and I just think it looks beautifully done but plays a bit shallow for me).

 

[Devolution]

As someone who's played FPSes since shit middle school? I can tell you that it's a pretty shitty atmosphere for a girl, no matter the game. It's getting a bit better though because harassment is taken more seriously than before. It's not the only solution but people who continually verbally insult others should undergo consequences.

 

[Pau]

What about the music industry? Look at all the freaking sexist videos - there are a shitload of women working in that industry despite all that and no one really considers it a big issue, yet the gaming industry all of a sudden is THE culprit while in fact it's an issue with society and how kids grow up in respecting other human beings for what they are.

Actually, it is a problem discussed in the music industry. The Dreamworlds documentaries go into it. I think a lot of gamers assume that video games somehow get the brunt of sexism discussions because they aren't involved in those discussions elsewhere, but it does happen quite a bit. If anything, video games have quite a lack of academic discussion when it comes to these issues.

I don't think anyone who criticizes how gender is handled within the industry and the content of video games thinks that the industry is the culprit, but rather that it's the medium the person is most passionate about and loves, so it's the one they want to see change the most.

 

[Inanna]

I can say, over sexualization turns me off of specific games. Neither my sister nor i wanted to buy Dragon's Crown, for instance. It's not entirely about the art either, although i'm sick and tired of it. It's the vocal attitude of people who are only interested because of "booberess", as i've heard her called. I just don't want to attend that party.

Obviously, i don't speak for every female on that score.

I feel the same way about MGS5. That quiet or whatever character design is just friggin awful, and one of the reasons why I won't be getting the game.

In other news, I have finally taken the plunge and bought PS4. getting delivered day after tomorrow. CAN'T WAIT!

 

[iirate]

I think you make some interesting points about socialisation. I'm not quite sure what the answer is, but I think there's still an historic assumption that the more physical 'skill' a task requires, the more suited to men it is. It's utter bobbins, of course, but I think this carries over to gaming. Twitchy, supposedly 'hardcore' games are supposedly 'male' while 'casual' games are supposedly 'female'. I find it really depressing actually and I worry about the effect it has on young girls who could be being raised in such an environment. Self-limiting because of gender is such a tragedy.

See, I genuinely think it's a broader issue of notions of superiority. I come from an extensive card and miniature game background, and those are arguably more egregious examples of boy's clubs than video games. There's nothing twitch oriented about tactical wargaming or turn-based card games, but women playing those games are met with equal disdain.

 

[Zoe]

Oh, and on the sexualisation point, I'm kind of laid-back. Virulent objectification is unhealthy. But isn't the DC artwork in the context of hyper-sexualised, hyper-stylised mega-adolescent fantasy artwork? (I'm not an expert, I'm late to the DC controversy. I tried Muramasa and I just think it looks beautifully done but plays a bit shallow for me).

Pretty much everything in Dragon's Crown is visually dialed to the max.

I haven't played online, but going off the trophy rarity, Sorceress is the least popular girl (matches what I've heard from others). Elf is the most popular out of all the characters, and she's the tamest design aside from Wizard.

 

[Devolution]

See, I genuinely think it's a broader issue of notions of superiority. I come from an extensive card and miniature game background, and those are arguably more egregious examples of boy's clubs than video games. There's nothing twitch oriented about tactical wargaming or turn-based card games, but women playing those games are met with equal disdain.

Because you're invading "their" space and some cheerleader made fun of them in highschool.

 

[weemadarthur]

..

 

[sploatee]

See, I genuinely think it's a broader issue of notions of superiority. I come from an extensive card and miniature game background, and those are arguably more egregious examples of boy's clubs than video games. There's nothing twitch oriented about tactical wargaming or turn-based card games, but women playing those games are met with equal disdain.

Yeah. I think you're probably right.

 

[TheHollowNight]

Woah, I'm glad I've created an interesting conversation amongst everyone

I don't think anyone who criticizes how gender is handled within the industry and the content of video games thinks that the industry is the culprit, but rather that it's the medium the person is most passionate about and loves, so it's the one they want to see change the most.

This 100%. My opinions surrounding the politics of the industry are born out of the desire to see it's strengths grow in abundance, because it's the career I chose, my passion, and trying not to make a sizeable impact on where I want things to end up at, is sort of a defeatist attitude in my head. I want the best for the culture & perceptions of the medium. I mean, I can be highly critical about certain aspects I see in the community, the fanbases, the working environment, it doesn't mean I hate it! I'm not whining for change, I'm acknowledging an obvious issue that needs to be dealt with through discussion, thought & real consideration.

I can say, over sexualization turns me off of specific games. Neither my sister nor i wanted to buy Dragon's Crown, for instance. It's not entirely about the art either, although i'm sick and tired of it. It's the vocal attitude of people who are only interested because of "booberess", as i've heard her called. I just don't want to attend that party.

In regards to the hyper-sexualized characters in games like MGS5 & DOA. It honestly makes me cringe. I get incredibly embarrassed when thinking about what sort of perception it gives out to people not accustomed to videogames culture, looking in. I'd imagine tacky & immature. The thing is for me, it's nothing to do with censoring the media. I'm all for having kickass, sexy characters, but y'know done tastefully? So much is just straight up power fantasies. People can be sexy just from their body language, personality traits, the sound of their voice etc etc. Instead it's just lol bouncy boobies

The argument that male characters receive the same treatment as female characters of objectification is so asinine it makes me laugh. Big chunky, ripped dudes waddling about..it's the feeling of being a powerful character, being tough, being all the things they normally can't obtain. Hardly any male gamers would sit down and legitimately say 'oh that dude is sexy, I'll play him!' Women are more subjective, and I'd imagine that on many occasions, the interpretation of a sexy male character are likely to be skewed quite differently. The majority of these characters male or female are created by guys, so the spectrum gets narrowed into this tiny funnel of what men think is appealing to both genders. You're missing on a lot of occasions 50% the human race to provide you input into your character designs there! Like, maybe even ask some girls what they think is attractive to them at a bare minimum?

As sploatee said below, a lot of it is down to context for these less than flattering designs. Which hardly none is ever provided. It's just merely gratuitous for the sake of being gratuitous.

Cool, so losing to someone still in elementary school is apparently less insulting than losing to me, who has been playing cards games for over 15 years. Swell.

Yeah it's completely ridiculous. If I play online, it has to be with friends I know well. my first & only experience of Xbox Live was..just, wow. Mindblowing. I can't imagine how shitty it feels when the insults rain down due to not having a penis. it's a weird territorial thing, I have no idea why dudes are like that so often, but it turns into this pissing contest, becuase 'oh noes a threat to my manliness'. It's also the easy way out of shifting the blame from themselves. Sigh.

 

[sploatee]

So i'm not the only one who feels this way?
What makes it uncomrtable though? Is it their behavior? Or something else, inside you?
Personally i get irritated at the apparent need to raise other peoples children (i'm 36).

It's not a very active issue for me due to me being an antisocial gamer. I nearly always play single player games. But on the few occasions i step online, i observe it happening.



Yes, i believe it is. i didn't read much of the background story on why the choices were made. But i never liked Boris Vallejo either, which was probably my first exposure to the genre as i read a lot of fantasy.

Does the art style get a free pass because it is deliberately chosen?

Is it excusable to have zero female characters in a game who have access to reasonable clothing? Is it better if there's only one female who dresses in 3 wisps of cloth? (E.g. Star Ocean 4). I don't know. But i have come to hate all the sexualization because i so seldom get a break from it. If it was all located it Leisure Suit Larry rather than in games i might otherwise play, i might not get so irritated by it.

Sorry I haven't broken up your post I'm on my mobile so it's a bit awkward.

I'm not sure what it is that makes me reluctant to play online in that kind of environment. Part of it is that I think I'd feel like poop if I let myself get riled up by trash talk from a school-age brat. I'm not sure I'd be able to deal with clients the next day!

Umm...on the art question...it's a good question. I don't think it's so much that it was deliberately chosen - you could deliberately choose to be offensive and it'd still be offensive - but more a question of context. From what I've seen, George K seems to be going for that campy, teenage vibe, and that would be something I'm comfortable with. I saw Conan the Barbarian once and not only did the female lead wear skimpy clothes but sexpest was pretty much wearing nothing but knickers through the whole thing. It felt pretty harmless because it was so kitschy. George K seems (or his team seem) to be pretty talented 2D artists tbh.

As a general rule, it is excusable? I don't know. I'm in two minds on it. On the one hand I think context is just so important. The frustrating thing is that it seems to be obligatory in so many bloody games that the whole of gaming can feel like the context.

 

[iirate]

I definitely don't mind DC too much, as while it is objectification, it really does so with a deliberate and campy feel(as sploatee mentioned) that makes it seen more like it's making fun of other portrayals than it is condoning them.

What bothers me more are companies like Blizzard who would rather stick their head in the sand when confronted about their blatantly over-sexualized female characters. As a fan of their games, it's really disappointing.

 

[TheHollowNight]

What bothers me more are companies like Blizzard who would rather stick their head in the sand when confronted about their blatantly over-sexualized female characters. As a fan of their games, it's really disappointing.

I'm guessing you're referring to that RPS article? Funny how everyone gives the site shit & not the developer, for asking a pretty valid question.

 

[Devolution]

My problem is when a company appealing to the lowest common denominator wants to pretend different. Just cut the shit.

 

[TheHollowNight]

My problem are the companies who act like this isn't even up for debate. So lets shit on a gigantic potential audience instead. Makes no sense business wise. It is like they don't want to be admit to being wrong on such issues.

Yeah. it's sad that this rings true in most cases. If you can't take constructive criticism of your work or accept an alternate standpoint, possibly highlighting a huge-ass flaw with your game, it makes you look pretty dickish.

The two developers I remember that got called out on this sort of thing & actually acknowledged the issue raised were Derek Yu of Spelunky fame & Double Fine in regards to Massive Chalice. These aren't quite the extremities of Blizzard's wrongfooting, but they at least acted with maturity in response.

People highlighted in Spelunky that it adheres to the classic Damsel in Distress trope, but being that you play an Indian Jones esque character, I'd say it's within reasonable context & harmless. The thing is he didn't shut that criticism out, he addressed it, admitted it as an oversight & added the male damsel and the Pug.
Same with Double Fine, the audience asked why there wasn't the option for gay relationships/marriages in the world of Massive Chalice. It doesn't detract from the core experience of the game or change it in any sizeable way and gives people at least that option should they want it. They addressed it as a minor oversight and glad it was brought to their attention.

Would be lovely if all studios had that mindset :/

 

[iirate]

I'm guessing you're referring to that RPS article? Funny how everyone gives the site shit & not the developer, for asking a pretty valid question.

I get that it may not have been the right approach to asking it, but the response was still hugely frustrating.

 

[TheHollowNight]

I get that it may not have been the right approach to asking it, but the response was still hugely frustrating.

I know right? Rock Paper Shotgun are one of my safe havens when it comes to games journalism. Yeah, I know they sometimes dig themselves in a hole when pressing on some topics. But, at least they are calling out the BS, right? Because who else is? How many other sites actively put out a disclaimer saying they won't tolerate some of the attitudes that exist? It's really saddening as a gamer & developer myself, to see the community react in response to their values, that they are aiming for click-baits, white-knighting to stand out. It's like we shouldn't give a shit about if people are treated differently right? 'I don't want to hear about it in my games naa-naa-naaa'.

Yeah, no thanks.

Have no clue what Massive Chalice is and I used to be a huge Double Fine fan. They've pretty much lost me over the years.

Ta-da!

Massive Chalice

 

[Platy]

What bothers me is when design is inconsistent.

The perfect exemple is Dragon's Crown.
So the barbarian girl is almost naked ? PERFECT, because the other barbarians are almost naked too.
The female magic users has some of skin showing ? FUCK YOU male magic users are all covered.


Also about the girls in the industry ... there is a very interesting pattern here in brazil that I don't see on much places.
As there are lots of brazilian indie games focusing on PRETTY GRAPHICS (read : art direction), so it is REALLY EASY to see in game jams a huge group of artist girls and a male programer in the middle.
Lots of girls in the art department, very few girls in programing

 

[Zoe]

What bothers me is when design is inconsistent.

The perfect exemple is Dragon's Crown.
So the barbarian girl is almost naked ? PERFECT, because the other barbarians are almost naked too.
The female magic users has some of skin showing ? FUCK YOU male magic users are all covered.

I wouldn't say a sexy, revealing wizard is a common trope...

 

[Platy]

I wouldn't say a sexy, revealing wizard is a common trope...

Bikini armor is also a common trope

My problem is when dudes don't wear it ... or girls don't wear it BELOW (or above...) the armor =P

If so few amount of armor has such a powerfull defense, why don't explore this ?

MAKE AN ACTUAL ARMOR MADE OF BIKINI ARMORS !

 

[iirate]

I wouldn't say a sexy, revealing wizard is a common trope...

The closest thing I can think of is the sorcerer from third edition D&D, who had sort of a tight leather and straps fetishist thing going on.

 

[Femmeworth]

At first I was rather bothered by Dragon's Crown aesthetic choices when it was first unveiled, but I came to begrudgingly accept it as a valid after reading the ensuing discussions.

 

[iirate]

Bikini armor needs to go. Any time I see bikini armor I roll my eyes. Yeah, like a female warrior is going to have her boobs on display and risk them getting stabbed or chopped off (ew).

Christ Lightfellow for life.

Yeah, that's pretty ideal.

Transmogrification is the best thing that ever happened to World of Warcraft, as I can ignore the reeeeaaaly stupid stuff(also, making your own sets of armor is really fun).

 

[Platy]

Meg design from Radiant Dawn is for me one of the most OMFG LOVE YOU designs in the gaming world

Everything is so perfect

 

[iirate]

Meg design from Radiant Dawn is for me one of the most OMFG LOVE YOU designs in the gaming world

Everything is so perfect

Pretty rad, but why does she have the face of a toddler?

Oh right, anime. -_-

 

[Anastasia]

I really like the designs in Radiant Historia, especially Eruca's:

 

[PK Gaming]

Meg design from Radiant Dawn is for me one of the most OMFG LOVE YOU designs in the gaming world

Everything is so perfect

Yeah, Radiant Dawn had some of the best armored female knight designs in gaming, imo.

 

[Mistel]

Monster hunter and dark souls also have some decent female armor's.

The elite knight female set.

Lagicrus female blade master armor in comparison to male set (which looks better just saying).

 

[Pau]

One of the reasons I like Fire Emblem so much is because there are so many female characters it's easy to have more variety in the visual design. Awakening kind of went back on that since everyone could now be a waifu.

But my point is, the solution to this problem is just having more female characters and making them diverse in both visual design and their narrative roles.

 

[suzu]

I've already talked about Dragon Crown to death on gaming side way back before it was released. I'll just say that I don't mind it and think of it like Bayonetta.

But my point is, the solution to this problem is just having more female characters and making them diverse in both visual design and their narrative roles.

I agree with this.

 

[Femmeworth]

Been playing Batman: Arkham City and this game is disgusting. :\ The outfits and designs of the key women and what NPCs say about them. Blegh.

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

Titania!!!!!

So OP.

 

[Arsenic Yellow]

Been playing Batman: Arkham City and this game is disgusting. : The outfits and designs of the key women and what NPCs say about them. Blegh.

Cat woman has always been one of my favorite characters in the batman series. They completely butchered her to be more in line with the new 52 series which is equally as terrible. Honestly, I couldn't finish the game. Not only are tier designs terrible, but the way they are written.... Ugh.

Edit: aside from bat woman, which I loved until DC fucked up again, are their any other good female protagonist series out in the 52s? batgirl or wonder woman?

 

[SaskBoy]

So what's the deal with furniture in women's washrooms? Like a couch or something. Is this a common thing? I've heard of it a few times.

A female friend of mine told me it's a remnant of when women wore corsets and would pass out often.

Men's washrooms don't have anything interesting in them generally. Although once I was at this bar that had a huge wall safe in the bathroom, but that's because the building was an old bank.

 

[Devolution]

Women like to sit and chat. Men don't.

No.

Historically women who wanted to breast feed and or smoke were expected to do it away from public eye.

This is how you get parlors before the bathroom in old buildings and furniture in the women's restroom.

 

[SaskBoy]

No.

Historically women who wanted to breast feed and or smoke were expected to do it away from public eye.

This is how you get parlors before the bathroom in old buildings and furniture in the women's restroom.

Makes sense. I figured it had to have some sort of historical context.

 

[Vermillion]

Monster hunter and dark souls also have some decent female armor's.

The elite knight female set.

Lagicrus female blade master armor in comparison to male set (which looks better just saying).

I recall Satch (whom I've still not played MonHun with yet) getting fed up with the female armors early on.

 

[Devolution]

Aren't women's restrooms with couches rare?

They seem to be getting rarer. I do remember my mother telling me she saw them more often than not in bathrooms meant for employees. She used the one in her store a couple times when she was pregnant with me.

 

[Femmeworth]

Women like to sit and chat. Men don't.

As for Batman AC, the dialogue guys say about Cat woman is disgusting but then they're thugs in a locked in prison so I don't see why it is a big deal when you're going to kick their ass anyways. My problem is that I've never liked Cat Woman and she's always used sexuality as a big part of her character - not that that's a bad thing. The only versions of Cat Woman I like are Batman TAS and Batman Returns. I think Talia is the superior Batman female villain. Cat Woman is so boring.

Film Crit Hulk did a series of articles about the game and counters your point far better than I could. http://filmcrithulk.wordpress.com/2...m-city-is-lots-of-fun-but-super-duper-sexist/ http://filmcrithulk.wordpress.com/2011/10/21/hulk-vs-arkham-city-round-2-bitches-be-trippin/

 

[ChaChaChaChia]

I was at a casino on New Years and every time I went to the bathroom the same lady was sleeping on the couch in there. So I guess its for that, too.

 

[Devolution]

I was at a casino on New Years and every time I went to the bathroom the same lady was sleeping on the couch in there. So I guess its for that, too.

Nap break between slots.

 

[Mistel]

I recall Satch (whom I've still not played MonHun with yet) getting fed up with the female armors early on.

Most of the early armor shows just as much on males in tri, I can't remember about the others though. My only gripe is that I can't have the male helmets for female armor:

I mean the rathian set is cute but the male helmet is so much better looking.

Great swords > that all else, just saying.

 

[Devolution]

Devo your avatar is absolutely adorable.

Thanks =D.

 

[Princess Viola]

every time i see devo's avatar, i think the cat is part of her face

i may need to start wearing my glasses again

 

[Wowfunhappy]

Oh definitely, and I think that if you look at a lot of girls that don't identify as gamers you'll find many of them still play casually in some form. There's just this idea that there are some games that "don't count", or that playing games with your partner doesn't count. Whenever one of those "girl gamer" threads pops up, people bring in those stats about women making up 48% of gaming or something to counter the lack-of-interest argument. In the end though they usually end up dismissed because "the sims/ farmville/ mobile games lol". That sims stereotype has been ridiculously pervasive honestly. Fuck it. Seriously.

Guy here, I was reading through this thread and just want to refute this point a little bit. I've seen it brought up a lot and it's the kind of argument let's-be-inclusive argument that I'd usually agree with.

Here's the thing: “Gamer” is a very odd term and I wish it would go away; there’s no word to describe a “movie watchers” or a “book reader”. I guess that as it's defined now, people playing Candy Crush and Angry Birds on their phones are fit the definition of a "gamer". But calling these people gamers is like calling a comic book fan who’s never touched an actual novel in his life an avid book reader. He's just not.

And that isn't to say that a comic book is necessarily inferior to a novel (Persepolis, anyone?). They're just different, and they should be treated somewhat differently. Just like Farmville is different from Portal 2.

I would love to see some gender stats that don't account for mobile and Facebook games, because I do think that the gender breakdowns we have right now are misleading, or at the very least incomplete. Who knows, maybe our preconceptions really are wrong—maybe the gender ratio really is mostly equal, even when you do discount social and mobile titles. That would be really cool to see, and either way it would do a much better job of informing these sorts of discussions.

 

[weemadarthur]

.

 

[shanshan310]

Guy here, I was reading through this thread and just want to refute this point a little bit. I've seen it brought up a lot and it's the kind of argument let's-be-inclusive argument that I'd usually agree with.

Here's the thing: “Gamer” is a very odd term and I wish it would go away; there’s no word to describe a “movie watchers” or a “book reader”. I guess that as it's defined now, people playing Candy Crush and Angry Birds on their phones are fit the definition of a "gamer". But calling these people gamers is like calling a comic book fan who’s never touched an actual novel in his life an avid book reader. He's just not.

And that isn't to say that a comic book is necessarily inferior to a novel (Persepolis, anyone?). They're just different, and they should be treated somewhat differently. Just like Farmville is different from Portal 2.

I would love to see some gender stats that don't account for mobile and Facebook games, because I do think that the gender breakdowns we have right now are misleading, or at the very least incomplete. Who knows, maybe our preconceptions really are wrong—maybe the gender ratio really is mostly equal, even when you do discount social and mobile titles. That would be really cool to see, and either way it would do a much better job of informing these sorts of discussions.

I agree that the term gamer is kind of wishy-washy and should probably go away, and that stats on non-fb games would probably be more helpful (especially in arguments about whether girls actually like games). What bothers me more than casual games not being counted as real games is the assumption that the statistics must be wrong because girls only play those casual games.

Case in point:
Going to buy a gaming PC and being told by staff that I should just buy the most basic PC model because "it'll probably play the sims".
Telling people having a discussion about games that I was interested too, and being questioned about whether they were FB games, and then questioned every step of the way afterwards as if I'd never heard of anything.