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GirlGAF |OT 2| Shall I Compare Thee to a Summer's Eve?

T

timetokill

Banned
I agree that parents can make their own decisions, etc. I agree that the trope isn't the greatest.

I think the "controversy" comes when somebody says outright the game "isn't family-friendly" and is "embarrassing." I think there's space to play Mario and also play a game where a girl is the hero, and to talk about it with your child. I guess I just view it more as an opportunity to teach a lesson than an embarrassment to society. God knows there's far, far worse that can damage girls out there than the simplistic story of a Mario game.

That said, I 100% believe shiba when she says what she thinks about the damsel trope. But I don't consider Mario to be a particularly strong or damaging type of that trope. Maybe I'm wrong, and I'm happy to discuss it. But I think there are stories that are... like, actual STORIES... where the discussion can be more fruitful. I'm not even sure Mario games qualify as having a story because there's no character change.

Tropes come about because humanity's stories are archetypal. It doesn't make sense to me to say we can't have stories where a boy rescues a girl anymore. Let's just make more where the girl rescues the boy sometimes too.
 
S

shiba5

Member
timetokill said:
I agree that parents can make their own decisions, etc. I agree that the trope isn't the greatest.

I think the "controversy" comes when somebody says outright the game "isn't family-friendly" and is "embarrassing." I think there's space to play Mario and also play a game where a girl is the hero, and to talk about it with your child. I guess I just view it more as an opportunity to teach a lesson than an embarrassment to society. God knows there's far, far worse that can damage girls out there than the simplistic story of a Mario game.

That said, I 100% believe shiba when she says what she thinks about the damsel trope. But I don't consider Mario to be a particularly strong or damaging type of that trope. Maybe I'm wrong, and I'm happy to discuss it. But I think there are stories that are... like, actual STORIES... where the discussion can be more fruitful. I'm not even sure Mario games qualify as having a story because there's no character change.

Tropes come about because humanity's stories are archetypal. It doesn't make sense to me to say we can't have stories where a boy rescues a girl anymore. Let's just make more where the girl rescues the boy sometimes too.
Click to expand...

I agree with you. Mario is not remotely the worst out there, but the problem is that it doesn't exist in a vacuum. I don't think that just because they have simple stories, they should get a pass. I feel that way because these were the games I grew up with and they hammered in that girls existed for boys to rescue. You don't really need much of a story to be damaging if what's there is a constant negative reinforcement. Boys do things. Girls just sit and wait for rescue. Unless you're Samus, in which case you make sure to take your clothes off at the end to titillate the guys.
(I always thought that at the end of Halo: CE, Chief should have taken off his armor and waltzed around in his underwear - keeping the helmet on of course. Can you just imagine the outrage?)
Mario is certainly not the hill I'd choose to die on though and yes, it would be better to use it as a teachable moment as opposed to banning your kid from playing it. If I didn't play games that had dumb tropes, I'd have very little to play.

Edit: I mean, I really like FF15 even though it has some awful female characters. The first time I saw Cindy I laughed my ass off and then ran to get my husband so he could laugh too - and she could be fixed easily just by changing her ridiculous clothing.
 
Y

YesNOnoNOYes

Member
its only a "controversy" because it offends some gamers' sensibilities that their beloved title is labelled such and such by some random parents on the net, you mean?

just because they called it "not family friendly" and "embarrassing" doesnt have to make it true for your* family and circumstances, right? (*general you)

there ARE far, far worse things out in the world that can damage a girl's sense of self esteem, yes. like, how girls are portrayed in almost anything ever. yeah. it's really hard to find anything in which girls are portrayed positively. the world's changing, for sure, and it's appreciated, but as far as mario is concerned, it is part of the problem and not part of the solution

in any case, discussions are always good, but hopefully these discussions are the types in which the women/girls' points of view are not shouted down or brushed aside.

and yes of course, boys can still rescue girls. and hopefully girls will rescue boys too without having the boys' sense of manhood destroyed or whatever. seriously, the things patriarchy does to its own gender boggles my mindddddd
 
M

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
shiba5 said:
I want to say something in that Super Mario Run gender thread on gaming side, but I don't want to get jumped on.
Like, how the damsel trope is really damaging. When I was little, I remember being sad that I was a girl because boys got to do all the cool stuff and had all the good toys. Girls were just something to be rescued or act as a prize.
Click to expand...
Hear hear. I fucking hated that and still pretended to be the hero regardless in my headcanon.

Also that thread is a fucking embarrassment. People are so butthurt over some silly, slightly exaggerated editorial. The sheer amount of ridiculous "this is why Trump won" posts is nothing short of mind-blowing, to be honest.
 
S

shiba5

Member
Morrigan Stark said:
Hear hear. I fucking hated that and still pretended to be the hero regardless in my headcanon.

Also that thread is a fucking embarrassment. People are so butthurt over some silly, slightly exaggerated editorial. The sheer amount of ridiculous "this is why Trump won" posts is nothing short of mind-blowing, to be honest.
Click to expand...

Those Trump posters will be happy to know that women are going to be well and truly fucked:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...05044&tid=ss_fb-bottom&utm_term=.515762332026

Don't read the comments. Lots of "WHAT ABOUT THE MENZ?!"
 
P

Platy

Member
The only thing weird for me in that article is complaining that peach beating bowser does not make her receive a kiss or anything.

Beating the dude who kidnapped you is enough reward =P

Also I can make an entire article on my on about the "need to get a kiss after rescuing a person" idea.

But yeah that thread is a mess. The Vin Diesel one is slightly less messy but still not some fun posts there ...
 
P

Pau

Member
shiba5 said:
Even now, I rage a bit when some on this forum generalize about what games girls like - and then ignore all the women on the forum telling them otherwise.
Click to expand...
Seriously, the worst. I feel like I'm gonna start going into those threads and quoting all the posts by women every page to make sure they're seen. (But then again, I don't know which women are okay with that.)
 
P

Professor Beef

Banned
Pau said:
Seriously, the worst. I feel like I'm gonna start going into those threads and quoting all the posts by women every page to make sure they're seen. (But then again, I don't know which women are okay with that.)
Click to expand...

"hey c'mon now, you don't speak for all women here" - guy poster
 
J

Jobbs

Banned
I think the NYT article brings up some valid points about Mario. Just because it's simple and seems harmless doesn't mean that it totally is.

My 9 year old niece is a badass and she is adventurous and climbs trees and plays with dinosaurs and.. Why the fuck would she want to be rescued by anyone? That's not her fantasy.
 
M

Media

Member
Pau said:
Seriously, the worst. I feel like I'm gonna start going into those threads and quoting all the posts by women every page to make sure they're seen. (But then again, I don't know which women are okay with that.)
Click to expand...

Remember when that happened in a thread and we complained about it and people were like 'Well, girls on Gaf aren't real girls because they like video games and geeky shit, so you guys don't count.

Good times.
 
O

olympia

Member
Media said:
Remember when that happened in a thread and we complained about it and people were like 'Well, girls on Gaf aren't real girls because they like video games and geeky shit, so you guys don't count.

Good times.
Click to expand...

i really enjoyed playing skyrim but once i hit 200 hours my irl vagina disappeared and a penis grew there instead. bug or feature, bethesda?

on the real, i pretty much always pick a guy in video games when given the choice. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ i like what i like
 
S

shiba5

Member
olympia said:
i really enjoyed playing skyrim but once i hit 200 hours my irl vagina disappeared and a penis grew there instead. bug or feature, bethesda?

on the real, i pretty much always pick a guy in video games when given the choice. ¯_(ツ)_/¯ i like what i like
Click to expand...

I usually pick the female character because I know they gather internal data on those things. A lot of times, they have a better voice actor too.
 
M

Media

Member
olympia said:
i really enjoyed playing skyrim but once i hit 200 hours my irl vagina disappeared and a penis grew there instead. bug or feature, bethesda?

on the real, i pretty much always pick a guy in video games when given the choice. ¯_(ツ)_/¯ i like what i like
Click to expand...

I pick a woman if I have the choice, but interesting enough, I identify more with male characters in media than female. This of course might just be a symptom of poorly written female characters. Men tend to get the better storyline and have a more fully fleshed out background, especially when we were growing up, so that's likely why.
 
N

NipplesAndToes23

Member
Media said:
Remember when that happened in a thread and we complained about it and people were like 'Well, girls on Gaf aren't real girls because they like video games and geeky shit, so you guys don't count.

Good times.
Click to expand...

Please don't tell me someone actually said that dumb ass, stupid ass, sexist ass shit?
 
S

shiba5

Member
Media said:
I pick a woman if I have the choice, but interesting enough, I identify more with male characters in media than female. This of course might just be a symptom of poorly written female characters. Men tend to get the better storyline and have a more fully fleshed out background, especially when we were growing up, so that's likely why.
Click to expand...

I know what you mean. I never played the female Shepard until ME3 when she got a real character model that matched the male version. She was just a stock, low detail model from the character creator in the first two games. It sucked.
 
W

WaffleTaco

Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
shiba5 said:
I know what you mean. I never played the female Shepard until ME3 when she got a real character model that matched the male version. She was just a stock, low detail model from the character creator in the first two games. It sucked.
Click to expand...
Really? I didn't know this. That's some bullshit. That mario thread was so ridiculous though. I mean I kind of derailed it, but some people be so dense.
 
Z

Zaphrynn

Member
weemadarthur said:
I read the first two pages and gave up forever. The one poster who said he could see his 4 yo nephew developing attitudes against playing as girls was overlooked in favor of people saying they weren't affected growing up.
Click to expand...

And what's hilarious is that he himself brushed it off. "Oh I don't think he was asking because he thought it was weird." Well if it was normal then why the hell would he have asked?

There was a father too who got ignored who said he noticed his son taking on traits, and at least he was trying to do something about it.

Nudull said:
I see we've reached our annual round of people defending rapey Christmas songs.
Click to expand...

Oh dear.
 
M

Misha

Banned
Nudull said:
I see we've reached our annual round of people defending rapey Christmas songs.
Click to expand...
Immediately knew you were talking about "baby it's cold outside" haha
It's just a little suspect if a line in the song is about slipping something in her drink
 
T

timetokill

Banned
That song is interesting, because I think in context to the time it was written, it's actually a pretty progressive song. The woman is pointing out all the social barriers to why she "can't" stay despite wanting to. The guy doesn't have to think about it at all. A woman staying the night at that time would've been scandalous as all hell.

In today's context it obviously doesn't sound good at all, of course. It is bizarre that this conversation comes up every year as though it's a new thing, though.
 
Y

YesNOnoNOYes

Member
olympia said:
i really enjoyed playing skyrim but once i hit 200 hours my irl vagina disappeared and a penis grew there instead. bug or feature, bethesda?

on the real, i pretty much always pick a guy in video games when given the choice. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ i like what i like
Click to expand...

hahahah oly

im with you though. i pretty much also always pick a guy in video games when given the choice the usually the female ones are always so prettypretty whilst the guys can range from slight to rugged to superbuff to older man who still kicks butts to etc etc etc

but usually the female counterparts are prettyprettypretty ...like, do unattractive women have no rights to exist or what

:x

i think there are more choices now, and certainly some game devs are trying to be more progressive, so i appreciate that. but yeah, general thumb rule still holds, unfortunately.
 
P

Platy

Member
timetokill said:
That song is interesting, because I think in context to the time it was written, it's actually a pretty progressive song. The woman is pointing out all the social barriers to why she "can't" stay despite wanting to. The guy doesn't have to think about it at all. A woman staying the night at that time would've been scandalous as all hell.

In today's context it obviously doesn't sound good at all, of course. It is bizarre that this conversation comes up every year as though it's a new thing, though.
Click to expand...

The problem is, like Joss Whedon can explain to you, that being progressive once does not mean you will be progressive forever ... specially if you keep doing the same thing
 
J

Jobbs

Banned
YesNOnoNOYes said:
hahahah oly

im with you though. i pretty much also always pick a guy in video games when given the choice the usually the female ones are always so prettypretty whilst the guys can range from slight to rugged to superbuff to older man who still kicks butts to etc etc etc

but usually the female counterparts are prettyprettypretty ...like, do unattractive women have no rights to exist or what

:x

i think there are more choices now, and certainly some game devs are trying to be more progressive, so i appreciate that. but yeah, general thumb rule still holds, unfortunately.
Click to expand...

Yet one more reason Soulsborne are the best games ever.. I can be any type of person I want -- which does more to create a connection to the character than a hundred pages of terrible dialogue and exposition
 
T

timetokill

Banned
Platy said:
The problem is, like Joss Whedon can explain to you, that being progressive once does not mean you will be progressive forever ... specially if you keep doing the same thing
Click to expand...

Oh, sure, I mean the line keeps moving on... I'm just saying that context is important as well. I think saying it's a "song about rape" is going too far when (in my reading of the song) both are consenting adults.
 
E

Eye for an Eye

Member
We're trying to avoid my bf's family (mine is in other states). I'm thinking of going out to Yosemite for the day and enjoy the snow and park. Weather is supposed to be good. I've only had a few white Christmases, so it's about time for another one.
 
M

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
timetokill said:
I had to bail at the " well she's a part of videogame history now so you might as well like her"

Like... what?
Click to expand...

871319.jpg
 
P

Platy

Member
shiba5 said:
Is that first one the unholy lovechild of Pikachu, Wolverine and a banana?
Click to expand...

I think he is just Wolverine as a Banana

Also, as a bonus ... how could I forget the worst pokemon design ever :

Ub76kWa.jpg


Saddly could not find on a 10 second google search an eggsecute cosplay that was not a gijinka =P
 
S

shiba5

Member
Platy said:
I think he is just Wolverine as a Banana

Also, as a bonus ... how could I forget the worst pokemon design ever :

Ub76kWa.jpg


Saddly could not find on a 10 second google search an eggsecute cosplay that was not a gijinka =P
Click to expand...

But it must be a great design if it has cosplayers!

I got a PS4 Pro (which makes console #6) for Christmas.
But girls don't play video games so I'm just gonna throw it in the trash.




Yeah, right.
 
P

Platy

Member
shiba5 said:
But it must be a great design if it has cosplayers. So sayeth MaleGAF.
Click to expand...

The saddest part for me is that bottom guy on my original post was the best cosplay for Luso from FFTA2 that I found ... you know, the pizza cutter guy

BBVkKe4.png
Click to expand...

Dude deserves a more faithful cosplay but there are few cosplayers who can make it happen =P
 
S

shiba5

Member
Platy said:
The saddest part for me is that bottom guy on my original post was the best cosplay for Luso from FFTA2 that I found ... you know, the pizza cutter guy



Dude deserves a more faithful cosplay but there are few cosplayers who can make it happen =P
Click to expand...

He did a great job with one of the worst designs I've ever seen. I laugh every time I see it. Her boots would fill up with water when it rained. I think we can call this one objectively bad.

(Wait, is that a guy? I thought it was a female character - I was looking at the kitten heels.)
 
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