entremet
Member
No one with a brain would admit to being a bad parent on national tv or social media.
That's a siren call to child protective services.
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Gorilla killed after dragging child at Cincinnati Zoo
- Thread starter alfredofroylan
- Start date
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That's a siren call to child protective services.
Incorrect. There are interviews with the gorillas former handlers, who, incidentally, worked directly with him until he was moved to Cincinnati. Handlers absolutely work directly with the animals. I'm not sure why you think otherwise. No other handlers that have worked with gorillas have said anything of the sort. What the animal experts have said have been mixed. http://www.bustle.com/articles/1638...ncinnati-zoo-tragedy-their-opinions-are-mixed
As far as what he could do with unexpected movement, etc, he had 10 minutes to do all that and didn't really do anything. Again, all I'm saying is I firmly believe there could have been other ways to handle it. As someone else said, there are only losers here.
As for stun gunning him, if it can work on a 500# moose, it can work on a 400# gorilla.
http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=wildlifenews.view_article&articles_id=450
perineumlick
Member
Who really gives a fuck though? What would that change? Not a damn thing, so people should just let it go.
HawksWinStanley
Member
Well this was on Facebook and I'm sure her lawyer helped her choose her words carefully.
I'd say a lot of people give a fuck. I know I do. It's kind of like in traffic when some dickhead cuts you off. It's way easier to let it go when they acknowledge they fucked up with a wave or mouthing "sorry". People fuck up. But when they're so oblivious they don't even realize they made a mistake or, in this case, she thinks she's a great parent who does a great job watching her kids when there's clearly evidence to the contrary then it's kind of a thing. Especially when something had to die because of her neglect.
SynthFetish
Member
The outrage over this is so overblown and stupid. I don't care if it's the last animal of its species, if there's a chance it could hurt a child it should get put down. A human life is worth infinitely more then any animals.
Let's use a taser on a gorilla that is HOLDING a kid.
God made gorilla's hands perfect electric insulators for this very reason!
Even if only affected the Gorilla, there's the danger that you will enrage the Gorilla and he could attack the kid.
GloriousBagel
Banned
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
Yeah, this is what baffles me. My family is hypervigilant if my nephews are near our 8 foot pool or on the 8-foot deck, I can only imagine how on edge they'd be if they were on a 15-foot cliff looking down on gorillas with only a 3-foot wall and some bushes. Especially given this woman was supposedly taking a fucking selfie or something while the kid was getting into this trouble, I mean c'mon. There's this weird parental equivalent of how good cops will stand up for bad cops because "You don't know what it's like!", this paranoia that calling out big screwups is somehow a reflection on their eminently more minor screwups.
Edit: Also, I don't think they should've stunned the gorilla, but I don't see why there wasn't a contingency in place where they tried to lure it away with some sedative-laced food. There are tranqs that can knock a human out within seconds, don't really see why a gorilla couldn't have been similarly taken down peacefully. Seems like they probably just didn't have a plan because no fool had ever put them in a position to need one.
thetruth1983
Banned
Are you saying that people work directly in the cages with gorillas because everything I've seen says that handlers always interact with them through a barrier. Also, there may have been other things that could have been done but you also have to keep in mind that this was a life or death situation. There wasn't a lot of time for sitting around the campfire and brainstorming. Here is an interesting read from a former handler.
https://www.facebook.com/amanda.odonoughue/posts/1203379586363094
Regginator
Member
that's both hilarious, sad and infuriating at the same time. i guess the "joke" is on them now.
Uuhhhhhhh...... that's not how stun guns work. At all. The whole point of using a stun gun to stun the gorilla. If a Fucking 500# moose falls over from a stun, I'm pretty Fucking certain a 400# gorilla will fall over. Might he fall on the kid? Yes, but if someone is close enough to stun him they're going to be able to get in there and move him off the kid in time.
They did what they thought they had to do at the time. That doesn't mean hindsight and reflection can't help us in further events, should this shit happen again.
You are alos assuming the gorilla doeznt freak out when he sees someone coming towards him.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
its ridiculous that people think a tranquilizer would be sufficient in this case. this isn't metal gear solid, a tranq that acts that fast would probably have the same effect of death.
andthebeatgoeson
Junior Member
Nor do you want a drunk gorilla dragging a child.
Are we really gonna get charges over a dead black gorilla but no charges over dead black people in Cincy? Anyone feel embarrassed about that? I feel completely embarrassed over that.
My mind assplodes over that fact. Cognitive dissonance, is it? The zoo is to blame. Ever think of falling into the venomous snake pit? That would seem really dumb. But because people want to be close, they change the enclosures. Then, the public turns this around on the mom and blames selfie culture.
Selfie culture probably has something to do with the vast change of enclosures. It's not enough to see them. You want to be close, take pictures, unobstructed. It's all about you.
fastford58
Member
I don't even know what to say. This is a thing.
entremet
Member
Statistically this happening again is very rare, which is why the Monday Morning Quaterbacking is a bit nuts.
There's also possible legal liability issues with your solution.
Mammoth Jones
Member
I completely agree. With that said the onus should be on the zoo far more than anyone visiting the zoo to ensure that ANY visitor of any size for any reason can't gain access to dangerous animals.
The animal _may_ drop (it hasn't been tested on an angry gorilla), but they can still trash around before they go unconscious. The article you link is veeeery light on details. You just did the math 500# > 400# and determined this is a perfect solution. Naive.
Most of the injuries the kid had were from the moment the gorilla grabbed him and tried to run. Now you want to tase the gorilla and cannot guarantee the gorilla will just drop peacefully instead of just smashing the kid in his last spasms. Gorillas are ridiculously strong and 3 y/o kids are ridiculously fragile.
Waaaay too risky.
thetruth1983
Banned
Unless they have Olympic power lifters working at the zoo, I doubt it would be possible for anything short of a forklift to move the gorilla off of the child.
Ragnorok64
Member
You're dealing with entirely different animals with different musculature and temperaments. Even in the article you linked the moose the moose went down but got up almost immediately. Now that moose ran off, but can you guarentee a male silverback gorilla would react the same way? Hitting it with a Taser is going to trigger fight or flight response,and if you set a silverback gorilla to Fight Mode, what do you think is going to happen?
The scenarios you're putting forward are not realistic or responsible ways to try to handle this situation while putting the child's safety first.
perineumlick
Member
What if the child died? Would you give a fuck then? Just because she didn't post on Facebook about her failings as a parent, to appease people like you, do you think she isn't beating herself up with guilt about it? News flash, bad things happen to the best parents. She doesn't owe you anything, she's grateful that her child is alive.
RPGCrazied
Member
Do petitions ever do anything? Cause yikes, that one has almost 500k signatures.
No they don't, and what petition?
RPGCrazied
Member
https://www.change.org/p/cincinnati-zoo-justice-for-harambe
I say its a tad much, a fine and a better fence would be enough.
You think a trainer is going to even approach an agitated gorilla, but also shoot it with a stun gun?
In life there are these rules. I'm fairly certain that approaching an angry gorilla with a gun is in the "Don't do if you want to continue living" category.
BladeoftheImmortal
Member
So human life isn't 100% always more important than an animals?
That's really all I wanted to establish. In my mind I think there should be more instances where a human life is less important. For exanple, you shouldn't be able to build an apartment complex in the last natural habitat for pandas even if it will give 20,000 people new homes.
Ragnorok64
Member
A fine for what exactly? To actually pursue legal action you'd have to prove criminal neglect.
RPGCrazied
Member
I just feel like a Zoo law was broken. An exotic animal, endangered at that, is dead. I'm not blaming the child, it doesn't know any better.
LOL, most online petitions are ridiculous, but this one may be the most ridiculous one yet.
TheBryanJZX90
Member
Lol "zoo law" thanks man that was good
RPGCrazied
Member
I just find it sad that nobody is taking blame here. Not the parent, not the Zoo.
If there is no law, there needs to be one that protects endangered animals in some way, even for accidents.
thetruth1983
Banned
I pray that you never become a judge.
uncredited male
Member
lol
I wonder what kind of ripple effect this will have on zoos now. I'm sure it had climbing hazard signs already, but that now won't be enough. Chain linked fences will be costly but probably necessary in order to avoid any lawsuits. Remember this would be put up in not only the gorilla area, but anywhere with a low fence. I can't help but think it's gonna deter people from wanting to go to the zoo if they can't get a clear view or clear selfies.
Take McDonald's for example. You'd think it's common sense for coffee to be scorching hot, but you wouldn't expect McDonald's to have a child safety zone around the coffee pot area. Or do we now? Where is the line where we expect establishments to build all sorts of safety nets for us vs having people take responsibility for their own actions?
Take McDonald's for example. You'd think it's common sense for coffee to be scorching hot, but you wouldn't expect McDonald's to have a child safety zone around the coffee pot area. Or do we now? Where is the line where we expect establishments to build all sorts of safety nets for us vs having people take responsibility for their own actions?
LilWayneSuckz
Member
This came to mind immediately after I read the news saying the Cincinnati Police were going to investigate the parents....ugh.
CornBurrito
Member
CornBurrito
Member
If you're going to allude to that famous coffee case you might want to actually research it because that woman ABSOLUTELY had a legitimate case.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald's_Restaurants
The woman was hospitalized for eight days and had to get skin grafts. She initially just wanted them to cover medical expenses, especially since the coffee was kept at hotter than safer temperatures. Hotter than it needed to ever be.
Just another reminder where some people sit on the empathy scale
It's actually not common sense for coffee to be "scorching" hot, but that's another matter.
Regarding the ripple effect, I would think it would depend on the zoo. I don't think it'll have an effect on the few zoos I've been to recently, as the animals are already well separated from the guests. I've never seen an enclosure where you could fall in with so little effort.
cpp_is_king
Member
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
Is there anybody saying that kids never get lost? As has been pointed out by several parents in this thread, what is questionable is that it was in this specific, obviously caution-demanding environment that the parents lost track of the kid, and seemingly to take a picture with a cell phone, of all things, and weren't even aware the kid was gone until after the kid had fallen over the edge. It's not realistic to expect 100% perfection from parents, but that's a far cry from saying that there are certain situations where a lapse is not okay, and an open-air enclosure for 400-pound gorillas is one of them. If nobody else had any trouble with it in 38 years, the chances are the error is on the user.
alfredofroylan
Member
Both scenarios are different. A kid getting lost in a close and much safer environment like a museum is not the same as getting lost, jump a fence and get into a enclosure with a 400 pound gorilla.
How do you judge relative safeness of zoo compared to museum? Are you aware that kids falling into gorilla enclosures is quite rare? And the museum isn't just safer, it's "much safer?" I'm curious as to how to quantify that. Only 10 deaths per year in museums vs a couple hundred in zoos maybe?
Messofanego
Banned
No. There first thought is how to keep the animal from escaping/safety of the handlers. Second (now day, not a concern in the past) is design an environment to suppose the mental and physical health of the animal. Third is how the visitors can view the animal safely. Many enclosure depend on the intelligence of visitor not to violate the post rules in order to give clear views to the animals.
There is only so much safety you can add before visitors complain they can't see the animals. The compromise is zoo lower fences and the public promises not to jump over them.
You worried about kids getting into the exhibits? Most of the time they end up in the closures because of dumb ass parents like this:
Can't find it now, but there was a case where the exhibit had an 6f+ chain link fence and the parent over the top so their kids could see better. Of course the kid fell in and they blamed the zoo.
How do you stop idiots like this? Age restrictions for kids? Intelligence test (for the parents). Electrified fences to keep the humans back? A guard at every pit writing tickets to violators?
Oh my lord.
Well there was the fall in 1986 with Jambo the gorilla at Jersey Zoo and 1996 Binti Jua at Brookfield zoo with small children into gorilla enclosures both times like this one where a kid is able to go over the top and fall in.
The difference with this occasion is that there was no water to drop into with the other zoos and the gorillas didn't die afterwards.
So to have it happen again after the last two times, but the gorilla died this time you'd hope changes are made. Not to constrict gorillas more, but to just keep the crazy humans out.
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