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[Trojita]

There's many things that we probably wanted to do as kids that our natural instincts didn't protect us from doing but our parents or other people helped prevent us from getting hurt. At the same time even at the age of 4 thinking about climbing over a fence, then purposely deciding you would jump down a fall of tremendous height (the concept of fall = hurts and large heights = bad should be a learned thing by that age and being afraid of heights itself is partially instinct gained from generations of humanity), and then thinking a huge hulking beat would be cool with you is a little special.....

 

[SummitAve]

All it takes is 5 seconds. 5 second slip up in 18 years and we are still blaming the parent?

It could take a fraction of a second and it would still be negligence, and when the parents are entirely responsible for their children at all times at the zoo then I'm not sure how there isn't responsibility or blame for them to bare. This wasn't just a tragic accident, it was totally preventable. The zoo could have made the enclosure impossible to get into, and the parent's could have kept an eye on their kid the whole time.

 

[Ray Wonder]

All it takes is 5 seconds. 5 second slip up in 18 years and we are still blaming the parent?

Yeah. Obviously. It's the parents slipping up for 5 (hypothetically 5 seconds) seconds. It's their fault.

The zoo could have made the enclosure impossible to get into,

This isn't reasonable, there are accidents even when the fences are twice as high. Also, there are standards that are followed. By following those standards, they're absolved of any wrongdoing here.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-ohio-gorilla-idUSKCN0YL1RC

The exhibit met standards set by the Association of Zoos and Aquariums (AZA) and U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA), which conduct regular inspections, Maynard said.

 

[lawnchair]

people on my facebook saying we're only blaming the parents because they're black

 

[CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls]

It was just a gorilla. Most people blaming the parents didn't know this gorilla or zoo existed before last week.

They'll be an uproar for a couple of weeks then no one will care. Standard news cycle.

 

[ElFly]

If it happened to me, it's my fault.

It doesn't matter what happened. No stranger came and threw the kid in, so it's the parents' fault. It's extremely simple, and I'm having a hard time understanding how people aren't grasping that. Parenting comes with responsibility.

Sure, take the responsibility if you want. It is a goddamn great gesture taking over this imaginary load over your shoulders.

Kids suffer random accidents all the time. They do stupid shit despite their parents trying to control them. In the end, sure, the parent has some responsibility, but in practice, I cannot blame a parent who took his eyes off his kid for a couple of seconds and then a gorilla died. As far as we know, the parent still did right. Could he have done more? sure.

Shit just happens and you cannot live life assigning blame to the closest adult.

Yeah. Obviously. It's the parents slipping up for 5 (hypothetically 5 seconds) seconds. It's their fault.

Some great parenting skills right there brah.

 

[mckmas8808]

If it happened to me, it's my fault.

It doesn't matter what happened. No stranger came and threw the kid in, so it's the parents' fault. It's extremely simple, and I'm having a hard time understanding how people aren't grasping that. Parenting comes with responsibility.

So what do you want to happen to this parent if it's all their fault?

 

[ElFly]

There's many things that we probably wanted to do as kids that our natural instincts didn't protect us from doing but our parents or other people helped prevent us from getting hurt. At the same time even at the age of 4 thinking about climbing over a fence, then purposely deciding you would jump down a fall of tremendous height (the concept of fall = hurts and large heights = bad should be a learned thing by that age and being afraid of heights itself is partially instinct gained from generations of humanity), and then thinking a huge hulking beat would be cool with you is a little special.....

There's a photo of the fence upthread. There are some plants beyond it and then a chasm with a gorilla below.

Kid prolly climbed thinking of going into the bushes.

 

[Ray Wonder]

Sure, take the responsibility if you want. It is a goddamn great gesture taking over this imaginary load over your shoulders.

Kids suffer random accidents all the time. They do stupid shit despite their parents trying to control them. In the end, sure, the parent has some responsibility, but in practice, I cannot blame a parent who took his eyes off his kid for a couple of seconds and then a gorilla died. As far as we know, the parent still did right. Could he have done more? sure.

Shit just happens and you cannot live life assigning blame to the closest adult.

Some great parenting skills right there brah.

You assign blame to who's at fault. Which are the parents. You can lighten it with "could he have done more, yeah sure" but right there proves my point already.

So what do you want to happen to this parent if it's all their fault?

I don't know. I don't really care, but it's their fault the gorilla died. That's what I'm arguing, not what happens afterwards.

 

[mckmas8808]

You assign blame to who's at fault. Which are the parents. You can lighten it with "could he have done more, yeah sure" but right there proves my point already.



I don't know. I don't really care, but it's their fault the gorilla died. That's what I'm arguing, not what happens afterwards.

What if the zoo made it so that 4 year olds couldn't get into the gorilla area?

 

[Linkstrikesback]

It was just a gorilla. Most people blaming the parents didn't know this gorilla or zoo existed before last week.

I mean, yes, you're not wrong, but....

I'm pretty sure you can apply that exact same sentence to the child and parents too, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.

 

[ElFly]

You assign blame to who's at fault. Which are the parents. You can lighten it with "could he have done more, yeah sure" but right there proves my point already.

That's some tough guy parenting right there.

Let's see how you apply the same standard to the zoo.

This isn't reasonable, there are accidents even when the fences are twice as high. Also, there are standards that are followed. By following those standards, they're absolved of any wrongdoing here.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-ohio-gorilla-idUSKCN0YL1RC

What the fuck.

The parents take their eyes off the kids for a few seconds? Totally to blame.

Zoo just complies with bureaucracy? Totally innocent.

That's some double standards right there. The fact that there's a standard followed does not make the standard enough. The fact the fence could trivially have been climbed by a kid surely is not to blame here.

What if the zoo made it so that 4 year olds couldn't get into the gorilla area?

Nah brah. The Zoo followed the standards. That immediately absolves them. Who cares if the standard is completely insufficient? Bureaucracy was followed.

 

[charsace]

All this confirms to me is that kids of a certain age should not be in Zoos.

 

[taoofjord]

If it happened to me, it's my fault.

It doesn't matter what happened. No stranger came and threw the kid in, so it's the parents' fault. It's extremely simple, and I'm having a hard time understanding how people aren't grasping that. Parenting comes with responsibility.

Saying it's the parent's fault is one thing but saying they're neglectful or terrible parents or even suggesting jailtime or fines is something else entirely.

Shit like this happens to EVERY PARENT. Ask your own parents how many times you almost got yourself into trouble.

 

[poppabk]

If it happened to me, it's my fault.

It doesn't matter what happened. No stranger came and threw the kid in, so it's the parents' fault. It's extremely simple, and I'm having a hard time understanding how people aren't grasping that. Parenting comes with responsibility.

I don't think anyone is saying the parents don't bear some responsibility. I think the impasse is that some people focus on the outcome to judge the parents, others focus on the actions that lead up to the incident when judging the parents.
From the article posted above:
Viewpoint A) One set of parents actively encouraged their child to climb the fence of a dangerous animal exhibit. Another set of parents lost track of their kid for a few seconds in the vicinity of a dangerous animal exhibit.
Viewpoint B) One set of parents took their kids to the zoo, had a safe trip out and went home. Another set of parents took their kids to the zoo, one kid fell into an exhibit and was attacked by a gorilla which was shot and the kid was hospitalized.

 

[ElFly]

Why ask for the quote then?

Goalpost moving.

 

[Ray Wonder]

That's some tough guy parenting right there.

Let's see how you apply the same standard to the zoo.



What the fuck.

The parents take their eyes off the kids for a few seconds? Totally to blame.

Zoo just complies with bureaucracy? Totally innocent.

That's some double standards right there. The fact that there's a standard followed does not make the standard enough. The fact the fence could trivially have been climbed by a kid surely is not to blame here.



Nah brah. The Zoo followed the standards. That immediately absolves them. Who cares if the standard is completely insufficient? Bureaucracy was followed.

Lol you sound so confident in yourself.

It's not the Zoo's fault. They met standards. If there are problems with the standards. It's the fault of whoever makes the standards. Of course.

 

[mckmas8808]

Keep in mind this is the only thing stopping kids from doing this....

 

[ElFly]

It's not the Zoo's fault. They met standards. If there are problems with the standards. It's the fault of whoever makes the standards. Of course.

What in the actual fuck this crazy reasoning right here.

So the zoo can be absolved because they did their bare minimum.

Keep in mind this is the only thing stopping kids from doing this....

Standard compliant brah. It's perfect and cannot be criticized.

 

[Pandy]

Keep in mind this is the only thing stopping kids from doing this....

You are fucking kidding me, right?

Every person in here that has seen that fence and is blaming anyone but the zoo itself is a complete moron.

 

[Vagabundo]

I know this is totally weird, but my local zoo is pretty child friendly. You even don't need to be helicopter parents there, you can let kids be kids a little without yanking them back every second for fear of their life. All the enclosures are thick glass or high fences.

But back to real life, being a parent is a balancing act with keeping them safe and letting them be kids and letting them exploring their environment and learn about being safe, because you know that you're not able to watch them every god-damn second once they are mobile, its just not possible.

Sometimes you fuck up, but it's okay they have a minor accident, sometimes people fuck up and things go badly wrong okay, but thankfully that's pretty rare.

 

[blakep267]

people on my facebook saying we're only blaming the parents because they're black

Idk but I am saying that news outlets were quick to dig up the fathers past as a way to somehow make him out to be a criminal and it be his fault when he wasn't even there. He got Trayvon'd

 

[Ragnorok64]

Idk but I am saying that news outlets were quick to dig up the fathers past as a way to somehow make him out to be a criminal and it be his fault when he wasn't even there. He got Trayvon'd

Wait, I've been mostly ignoring this whole thing, but they seriously did that?! What the heck?!

 

[Azerth]

You are fucking kidding me, right?

Every person in here that has seen that fence and is blaming anyone but the zoo itself is a complete moron.

This is the first time that anyone has ever gotten in, thats 38 years.

 

[blakep267]

Wait, I've been mostly ignoring this whole thing, but they seriously did that?! What the heck?!

http://www.*****************/news/a...-emerges-father-lengthy-criminal-history.html

As if that was the cause for his son being curious about an animal


Edit: Sorry. Didn't know daily mail was banned

 

[Ray Wonder]

What in the actual fuck this crazy reasoning right here.

So the zoo can be absolved because they did their bare minimum.



Standard compliant brah. It's perfect and cannot be criticized.

I never said it's prefect. Obviously it's not, because a kid made it through. It meets standards though. If a restaurant meets health standards you don't fine them for health related problems. If something is wrong with those standards, you change them, not blame the companies which follow them.

 

[aliengmr]

Wait, I've been mostly ignoring this whole thing, but they seriously did that?! What the heck?!

Not surprising, this is what happens when the internet gets outraged.

All I have heard is they are looking into charges against the parents again.

 

[HStallion]

I think they should just have someone working there who stands behind the fence and punches people square in the face if they so much as lean over the fence. Problem solved.

 

[Ragnorok64]

Not surprising, this is what happens when the internet gets outraged.

All I have heard is they are looking into charges against the parents again.

Who is "they" in this case?

 

[statham]

Keep in mind this is the only thing stopping kids from doing this....

yea, that needs a 6ft high glass wall. My 3yr is a runner, if I didn't always hold his hand, I can see him going for it.

 

[Slacker]

Who is "they" in this case?

The Internet.

 

[see5harp]

I don't think anyone deserves to be scolded or go to jail, but I think it's pretty clear that the parents are responsible. It doesn't matter how quickly it happened or what kind of parents they are the rest of the time. It only takes a second for anyone to make a mistake. What kind of 4 year old would climb a fence and take a 15 foot drop? Honestly that's a dumb ass 4 year old.

 

[Vagabundo]

yea, that needs a 6ft high glass wall. My 3yr is a runner, if I didn't always hold his hand, I can see him going for it.

Just wait until he gets a little wiser they start doing this thing where they drop their weight and twist their hand at the same time and then leg it. My one started doing that around four. You have to have the reflexes of a cheetah.

 

[statham]

I don't think anyone deserves to be scolded or go to jail, but I think it's pretty clear that the parents are responsible. It doesn't matter how quickly it happened or what kind of parents they are the rest of the time. It only takes a second for anyone to make a mistake. What kind of 4 year old would climb a fence and take a 15 foot drop? Honestly that's a dumb ass 4 year old.

3 years old and most likely didn't see the drop if its right after the bushes.

 

[Slacker]

I don't think anyone deserves to be scolded or go to jail, but I think it's pretty clear that the parents are responsible. It doesn't matter how quickly it happened or what kind of parents they are the rest of the time. It only takes a second for anyone to make a mistake. What kind of 4 year old would climb a fence and take a 15 foot drop? Honestly that's a dumb ass 4 year old.

In my years of dealing with children as a parent and at church, I can safely say about 95% of children are dumb asses going by your standards.

 

[blakep267]

Who is "they" in this case?

Correction, I misread the post

 

[SpinningBirdKick]

Should've shot the child instead of the gorilla.

As far as I'm aware there's still plenty of children in the wild.

Spoiler

Just kidding

 

[jblank83]

yea, that needs a 6ft high glass wall. My 3yr is a runner, if I didn't always hold his hand, I can see him going for it.

I don't know why this isn't the main point of discussion. That barrier is ridiculous.

Maybe I'm just used to the zoos I've been to, but I've never seen a potentially dangerous animal enclosed with such a shoddy barrier. Usually they're glass.

 

[Sami+]

Cause some humans are worse than animals.

That's not your judgement to make.

 

[mrkgoo]

I was a little shit when I was a kid, I ran from my grandparents in a Wal-mart and an employee had to help them catch me. Shit happens, you may be the most ATTENTIVE parent in the world and your child can still fall into harm's way. And the minute a great parent lets their guard down, they're suddenly the scapegoat. If we knew for sure what the parent(s) were doing to allow their child to fall into the exhibit, then I could make a judgement. Just glad the kid is safe.

Pretty much.

I think, yes, the responsibility is ultimately the parents', but as any parent will tell you as much as you try you cannot be the perfect parent keeping an eye 100% of the time. Looking after kids is a constant mess of compromise, tossing up less bad judgements over others and so forth. I think it's just unfortunate that a minor bad judgement in this case turned out to have a major consequence.

In situations like this it's always easy to throw blame in all sorts of directions... In hindsight. There probably is a better way to assign that responsibility if you were closer to the series of events, but none of us here are so I don't pass judgement beyond a tragic accident.

 

[see5harp]

In my years of dealing with children as a parent and at church, I can safely say about 95% of children are dumb asses going by your standards.

The overwhelming majority of other kids who don't go into a gorilla enclosure at the zoo are definitely smarter than this little idiot.

 

[mckmas8808]

I don't think anyone deserves to be scolded or go to jail, but I think it's pretty clear that the parents are responsible. It doesn't matter how quickly it happened or what kind of parents they are the rest of the time. It only takes a second for anyone to make a mistake. What kind of 4 year old would climb a fence and take a 15 foot drop? Honestly that's a dumb ass 4 year old.

Did you know that she was also watching other kids, when the 4 year old got away?

 

[ElFly]

This is the first time that anyone has ever gotten in, thats 38 years.

When you design something, you balance the requirements and decide what are acceptable risks given what you want.

In this case, the question "is this design that kept gorillas safe for almost four decades good enough?" maybe has an affirmative answer. Is that a good security record? Maybe. Did the designer go "Is the risk of a 4 year old climbing this fence and going through the bushes low enough that I can count on it happening only once every 40 years"?

Honestly I find hard to believe that something that can be climbed so easily (and restricts the view so it makes you want to climb it) is a good design. Zoo accidents are rare enough that just evaluating them on statistics is hard. Surely there are other similar or worse fences around other animals with better security records.

 

[ISOM]

The overwhelming majority of other kids who don't go into a gorilla enclosure at the zoo are definitely smarter than this little idiot.

Damn calling kids idiots is ok? Jezus..

 

[see5harp]

Did you know that she was also watching other kids, when the 4 year old got away?

Why does that matter? If a school goes on a field trip, teachers and TA's regularly watch like 5-10 kids. If something happened, they would be responsible, regardless of the waivers they make your parents sign. Obviously she shouldn't do any hard time for it, but if you let a toddler do that shit on your watch then that's on you.

 

[LifEndz]

snip

that gif is incredibly offensive. I really wish people would stop posting it.

 

[Slacker]

The overwhelming majority of other kids who don't go into a gorilla enclosure at the zoo are definitely smarter than this little idiot.

lol, ok man you got me. I'll look forward to your contributions in the thread next time a kid dies in a hot car. Stupid ass kid couldn't even open the door!

 

[KoruptData]

The preservation of human life is a mindset that destroys more than it creates. All life is precious and should have been treated as such. Zoo personal, the hand that feeds, should have went in there and got the boy. If the hand that's feeds was too scared to go in there, that is not an animal that should have been in a zoo.

 

[mckmas8808]

Why does that matter? If a school goes on a field trip, teachers and TA's regularly watch like 5-10 kids. If something happened, they would be responsible, regardless of the waivers they make your parents sign. Obviously she shouldn't do any hard time for it, but if you let a toddler do that shit on your watch then that's on you.

It's an explanation on how it happened. It only took like 10 seconds while she was attending some other kids.

 

[see5harp]

It's an explanation on how it happened. It only took like 10 seconds while she was attending some other kids.

Yea, it's called an accident. It happens all of the time when people get in car crashes that kill people. It doesn't matter whether she is a negligent parent or a great parent. It could have been 2 seconds or a half of a second. She's the guardian and is responsible.