I'm only using it for seasonal races or online stuff where everyone else uses it. But if you want to use, it use it. Its your game your fun.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Gran Turismo 6 |OT| Moon Rover The Castle
- Thread starter Mobius 1
- Start date
I'm only using it for seasonal races or online stuff where everyone else uses it. But if you want to use, it use it. Its your game your fun.
phosphor112
Banned
It should make sense.
SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
Very true.
I find it more fun not to you any assists at all but you should try it and see if it's more fun for you.
Tell me, what happens if you fire a cannon ball upwards at, say, a 30 degree angle? Does it just keep on going out to space or does it come back down? When you are going up a hill you are constantly pushing against gravity. Same as when you accelerate in a real car at a constant rate, do you get pulled back into the seat once or are you constantly getting pulled back until you stop accelerating? If you go into a corner, do you only get pulled to the side at the initial turn in or does the G force continue until you start going straight again?
The difference in the angle of forward force in your diagrams shows exactly why going up a hill would increase effective weight (or downward force to be pedantic).
Graphics Horse
Member
Am I misunderstanding this?
Are you saying travelling at a consistent pace up an escalator will be heavier on your knees? Because that's not correct. Entering the escalator/hill is heavier on your knees, and leaving is lighter, but while you're half way up it you're not being pushed around by gravity any more than you would be standing on flat ground.
thesuperfunk
Member
Judging from the thread on GTPlanet it sounds as if the young Russian lad was responsible for modelling it himself.
chrominance
Member
I can't believe we're doing this, but:
Weight: the force with which a body is attracted toward the earth or a celestial body by gravitation and which is equal to the product of the mass and the local gravitational acceleration (Merriam-Webster (I know, Oxford costs money yo)).
Downforce is not a gravitational force, therefore it has no impact on weight. Going up a hill has no effect on weight either because the force acting on the body is the same (the gravitational force pulling an object towards the center of the Earth's mass). But because the surface it sits on is not perpendicular to the direction of the force when driving up a hill, the scalar component of the force acting to push the car towards the surface is reduced while the scalar component of the force acting to push the car along the surface is increased. MetalMurphy and phosphor112 are correct, as far as my understanding goes.
Weight: the force with which a body is attracted toward the earth or a celestial body by gravitation and which is equal to the product of the mass and the local gravitational acceleration (Merriam-Webster (I know, Oxford costs money yo)).
Downforce is not a gravitational force, therefore it has no impact on weight. Going up a hill has no effect on weight either because the force acting on the body is the same (the gravitational force pulling an object towards the center of the Earth's mass). But because the surface it sits on is not perpendicular to the direction of the force when driving up a hill, the scalar component of the force acting to push the car towards the surface is reduced while the scalar component of the force acting to push the car along the surface is increased. MetalMurphy and phosphor112 are correct, as far as my understanding goes.
See You Next Wednesday
Banned
They've upgraded Seattle, let us all hope that announcements of monthly track-DLCs were accurate.
Where are those pics from?
SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
Accelerating at a constant rate, not traveling at a constant rate
Traveling at a constant rate would leave effective weight at the same level, not decrease it.
Only if you started to decelerate on the hill would effective weight and thus grip be reduced but for it to be enough to cause wheel spin, it would have to be a large amount of deceleration or a decent crest in the road surface.
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
Accelerating at a constant rate, not traveling at a constant rate
Traveling at a constant rate would leave effective weight at the same level, not decrease it.
Only if you started to decelerate on the hill would effective weight and thus grip be reduced but for it to be enough to cause wheel spin, it would have to be a large amount of deceleration.
Dude I hate to be blunt but you're misunderstanding some fundamentals of physics (or are explaining your point poorly). What phosphor drew above explaining friction force is almost exactly what I was going to draw, but in my diagram my car was a cock and balls on wheels (so therefore better).
SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
If you are accelerating up an incline at a constant rate not traveling up an incline at a constant rate, the effective weight of the vehicle would increase similar to the way downforce works which would increase tyre traction. I don't know how much more simpler I can make it.
This isn't even taking into account weight transfer which would shift way back again giving the rear more traction due to the higher relative center of gravity of the driven wheels.
oddly enough, one of the few things GT6 manages to simulate is downforce due to inclines and undulations because you can use dips in certain corners to carry a higher speed than would otherwise be possible on a flat corner. Then it also makes banks work in a really weird way where rear traction decreases and causes oversteer in some cars. i.e Dodge Viper GTS ACR (i think that's the one) on high speed ring manages to have more grip without aerodynamic downforce than it does with it.
See my post history in this thread, few pages back, Time Zone settings. And NEVER FORGET TO MANUALLY SAVE after being gifted with the Bonus percentage before Quitting to XMB.
I'm almost tempted to email my damn system dynamics professor and ask him how accelerating up a hill affects traction, considering he did suspension work for some NASCAR (and I believe ALMS) teams.
But anyway, I'm not seeing how weight would effectively "increase." It would simply shift. The gravity vector could simply be split into a horizontal and vertical component, where the horizontal would shift the force back a little depending on the incline.
But anyway, I'm not seeing how weight would effectively "increase." It would simply shift. The gravity vector could simply be split into a horizontal and vertical component, where the horizontal would shift the force back a little depending on the incline.
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
No, accelerating or maintaining a constant speed up an incline will not change anything. The maximum level of grip available to the tires will be decreased because the force of the weight of the vehicle is no longer acting perpendicular to the surface. This discussion really can't go any further if you don't grasp this and I encourage you to read up on normal and friction forces.
I also just tested lift-off oversteer in a BTR in GT6 on the flat corners on High Speed Ring. It is predictable and works as expected. I made sure to keep steering input constant and only vary throttle input.
Edit: I should note that yeah, more weight will be on the rear tires as slope increases but you're ultimately going to have less traction due to the surface being off horizontal.
SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
So you don't feel heavier when in an accelerating elevator.
Okay. You're right, this conversation is pointless.
A track where all but one the corners are banked to an extent.
Either way, i did more testing around silverstone and you're right, there are times where lifting off does cause oversteer. Not always, but it does happen. My apologies for not having tested it further. That said, trailing 25% throttle still gets oversteer most of the time and the Alfa Romeo Mito (the orignal "example") definitely does not get it. It gets a little washing out or understeer under power through corners but lifting off mid corner or even turning in with no power does not cause oversteer.
Neuromancer
Member
The Christmas music in the menus is kind of amazing.
Neuromancer
Member
Hmm says I can't use a power limiter or ballast. Well thanks anyway.
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
Yeah that would matter if we were talking about the ground accelerating into the car but I don't think that's the case. Really it has nothing to do with the situation we're discussing so that you brought it up as an analogy is telling.
I think you're thinking about driving a car into the beginning of an upward slope, which would increase available grip, but that's not what we're talking about.
Red Blaster
Member
gran turismo 6 + arguments over high school-level physics |ot|
Do I have to disconnect from the internet, to stop that friends license time driveline stuff? It's more of a distraction than if my own ghost car got infront of me, especially when the git is actually golding all the licenses while I'm doing my first run/focusing on trying to beat my own ghost. lol
SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
Stop and think about it.
Why does the beginning of an incline cause it? Your vertical travel speed is accelerating. Correct?
Now, if you were traveling up a constant incline at an increasing speed, your vertical speed would increase and not remain constant.
thesuperfunk
Member
The Acura NSX Concept video that surfaced at the very start of the year ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfRq4Cgt6jY
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
Do I have to disconnect from the internet, to stop that friends license time driveline stuff? It's more of a distraction than if my own ghost car got infront of me, especially when the git is actually golding all the licenses while I'm doing my first run/focusing on trying to beat my own ghost. lol
You can turn it off by hitting up on the D-pad to turn both off.
Or I believe the quick options menu (press start) may have the ability to select which you prefer, I don't remember 100% though.
phosphor112
Banned
In an elevator, yes acceleration increases the downforce upon you, because you are a stationary target with mass. Once you reach constant velocity, downforce is no longer positive, but instead, 9.8ms sq (G).
Going up a slope is sorta similar. On a flat ground you have a downforce of G, but when you start going up the hill, you get G + Fn (normal force). Once you hit a constant uphill angle, you are down back to G, because you are now moving at a constant vector.
mattiewheels
And then the LORD David Bowie saith to his Son, Jonny Depp: 'Go, and spread my image amongst the cosmos. For every living thing is in anguish and only the LIGHT shall give them reprieve.'
Any of you guys play iRacing alongside this? Just wonder how they stack up to each other, or if they're even comparable.
XGRaViSmOrSX
Member
wheel feedback is still leagues better on iRacing. not to mention the racing with others online is better due to the penalty system in place on iRacing.
GT6 is far better than GT5 in terms of suspension feedback and knowing when the car is on its limits but still not close to what I get with iRacing.
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
Allow me to simplify all of this uphill bullshit for everyone:
You walk on a flat wet road, your feet don't slip.
You walk up an incline, you can feel your shoes slipping because your balance has changed.
Losing traction up a hill is normal. In NY, my 350Z and 370Z would do this sometimes.
You walk on a flat wet road, your feet don't slip.
You walk up an incline, you can feel your shoes slipping because your balance has changed.
Losing traction up a hill is normal. In NY, my 350Z and 370Z would do this sometimes.
Anyone looking for an event that's sort of interesting to race and profitable: Nurburgring 24 minute Challenge. It's 3 laps around the 24 hour circuit, 613k in prize money with the bonus. It goes dark and on the third lap you get an awesome looking dawn, it will rain to spice things up. And the AI is such a bumbling idiot on that track in those conditions that you can use any car you choose. I just obliterated the BMW Mclaren F1 GTR by half a minute with the new M3 race car, stock.
Hitokiri03
Member
Ive been struggling to get gold at Andretti and M4 seasonal, after read your post I tried with SRF on, and got gold on both at first try :O
I didn't know that SRF would make such difference.
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
No it's because the road is forcing a massive change in direction in the car. Once the uphill direction is constant the road is no longer changing the direction of the car and the force of gravity is the only force remaining.
This is obtuse, to demonstrate what you're getting wrong let's look at a road that goes sharply from horizontal to completely vertical. A car going fast enough will stick to that road like glue until the change in slope of the road stops, at which point it will go straight up, have zero traction with the road, and then fall back down.
This whole argument is fucking insane. You're saying that a car can go up a vertical wall so long as it's accelerating. It's such nonsense I can't even argue against it in good faith.
gutterboy44
Member
Racing 101: (edit: when accelerating) corners that transition into uphill will induce oversteer due to the front suspension loading ahead of the rear thus increasing front end grip and changing the car balance to oversteer. Downhill turns, you get understeer. This is what makes the Ring and elevation in race tracks so awesome, it adds an additional component to consider when racing.
I can't speak to blocks traveling on perfect inclines because I am not a physics graduate, but race tracks tend to have corners across elevation changes not several on a constant gradient. Also, those blocks need independent suspension modeled that effects the tire contact patch due to compression or unloading and therefor changing the available grip either at the front or rear of the car, you know the thing that is going to cause the under or oversteer that this whole discussion seemed to stem from.
ITT: people who seem to know a decent amount of physics but not enough about the basics of car control and suspension dynamics. GT6 does have some TTO, it is just really poorly modeled and super forgiving. I think I need to secret Santa the book, "Going Faster" to some peeps in this thread. It will end these arguments much sooner. I should re-read that, it has been over 10 years since I last did!
I can't speak to blocks traveling on perfect inclines because I am not a physics graduate, but race tracks tend to have corners across elevation changes not several on a constant gradient. Also, those blocks need independent suspension modeled that effects the tire contact patch due to compression or unloading and therefor changing the available grip either at the front or rear of the car, you know the thing that is going to cause the under or oversteer that this whole discussion seemed to stem from.
ITT: people who seem to know a decent amount of physics but not enough about the basics of car control and suspension dynamics. GT6 does have some TTO, it is just really poorly modeled and super forgiving. I think I need to secret Santa the book, "Going Faster" to some peeps in this thread. It will end these arguments much sooner. I should re-read that, it has been over 10 years since I last did!
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
Suspensions are affected in lots of different ways due to elevation changes, but the examples of blocks on slopes was only brought into play to counter a dude's assertion that "you'll have more grip if you're driving uphill", which is nonsense.
Mid-Ohio has some really tricky corners due to elevation changes, and one "fuck yeah my brakes are invincible" corner, so I know what you're talking about.
Mid-Ohio has some really tricky corners due to elevation changes, and one "fuck yeah my brakes are invincible" corner, so I know what you're talking about.
gutterboy44
Member
Neuromancer
Member
I had no idea how much more fun races are with nitrous. If any of you guys/girls haven't tried it, buy it for your favorite car and give it a shot. I thought it would be a one time deal but really you have a whole tank to use as you see fit throughout the race.
Yep, Assetto Corsa and iRacing player. I gotta say that going into GT6 I wasnt expecting much after GT5's FFB but after turning steering wheel settings to simulation I was actually really impressed with GT6 FFB and suspension model. Really great stuff! Good enough to put off setting up the sim PC for 2 weeks with no intention to do so in the near future. NSX on the ring is godlike. (T500RS)
Evidence? I told you, just take a look at patch notes for any PC 'sim'.
LIke the last iRacing update for eample:
http://www.bsimracing.com/iracing-release-notes-for-2013-season-4/
Too many car specific physics hacks to mention, and they include many more they wont talk about other than to say 'other physics refinements'. I would love to see what their physics model would make of the average car without all the hacks. Yet people pick on games like GT because they find something wrong with a few of the cars in the thousand...
It does. Just try it, and not with stupidly sticky tires either. It does not oversteer wildly, its a sedate road car, it would be unrealistic if it did, but it does a little. And did you know many modern 'hot hatches' produce zero lift off oversteer? Its manufacturer safety rubbish.
Before you go spouting your wild theories, first drive the car in game then confirm its real world characteristics. So far it seems you do neither.
And I was going to reply to the rest of your dribble but others have tried to explain basic physics to you and failed. I will not bother. Enjoy your bizarro universe where the gravitational effect on mass changes with wind and angle.
iRacing... iRacing is a good solid racing simulator. You get a more realistic feeling of racing with penalties, flags and such. As a driving sim its not great, never has been. They have always had problems with their tyre model (there is a good reason it is now up to patch 5.0) and now with GT6 and Assetto Corsa their suspension model is aging visibly. This translates into cars that just spin uncontrollably sometimes and realistic drifting is just not possible at all. Of course some cars are better than others.
Assetto Corsa is MUCH better than iRacing and similar in feel to GT6. Take GT6, very slightly gimp the suspension model, reduce the lateral grip of the tyres a little and throw in a much, much better drivetrain model. That is AC. Oh and of course much better sound.
But then AC has almost zero content in comparison to GT6. AS will be great... In a few years. Right now it needs a few hundred more cars, an online mode and 20 more tracks.
brotkasten
Member
Are you playing with a wheel or pad?
Maastricht
Member
I left SRF off but TCS on at default I think, got a silver on second try and haven't tried again afterwards. May go back to it when I have time.
Pad..
Maas, yeah that's what I'm dOing now trYing to re gold. Never tried srf till today. Makes my mind feel weird. I'm used to the physics. So driving srf just throws me.. bit magical, but it seems they are favoring it for golds... I almost toSsed the controller trying to get gold with 1 tcs... lol. No game dOes this for me. I was so frustrAted with myself lol.
lightchris
Member
Yep, I remember needing quite a few tries for gold on that challenge (though I didn't really know the track well). I play with pad and all driving aids off except ABS on 1, so it's definitely doable though.
The M4 challenge was the hardest to gold for me, took me hours. Then I wanted to try with srf to get better leaderboards time and quit on first try. The M4 drives so bad.
Shortt Sirket
Member
I would almost agree with this, but only if you'd included Midfield, Tahiti Road, original Rome and Rome Night as well
I know I am late to this, but Rome Night is STILL my absolute favorite track of any racing game ever. It was just such a great track to race on. Man, I would kill to have an updated version in GT.
I'm using pad too (can't be bothered to dust the old wheel off!). I haven't touched srf and nor will I in the near future. But I seem to have got used to the behaviours with a controller now. I have a 2:15.852 at the moment.