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Gran Turismo 6 |OT| Moon Rover The Castle

Everything was going just fine in the standard career races until I tried to tackle the FR Challenge in National A with the Honda S2000 I won. My god, I don't know if I've just suddenly become really awful at this game or what, but I can't drive that car for shit. I've pumped 30,000 credits' worth of upgrades into the thing--brakes, sports tires, weight reduction, engine, suspension, etc.--and still, every turn I take (and even some straights), I feel like I have to baby the car and not turn in too much or I'll spin out. Every race has me on pins and needles trying not to crash the thing, and if I thought Silverstone with the GT-R was bad, this is a thousand times worse.

I honestly don't know what I'm doing wrong. I have TCS set to 5 but I think the skid reduction stuff and all that is off. I yearn for the safety and predictability of the Clio that I've won countless early races with by landslides. I honestly don't remember having this much trouble in previous Gran Turismos. Am I going crazy? Am I too old for this game? Are my reflexes shot? Was I just never any good in the first place? Help me, GAF, I'm having a nervous breakdown!
 

MaDKaT

Member
Sounds like many of you are taking the corners badly. Either that, or you all have some assists on that are slowing down your acceleration out of corners. Once you pass that other car, it should be a non issue. It will keep pace, but it shouldn't ever get close to making contact.

Yes, there's serious rubber-banding going on. But once you pass them, the AI cars will only catch you when you do something to put you seriously off pace.

Nope, easily catch up to, pass and out corner the AI by many car lengths(they brake early). It's just this one mission event where the ai GTR literally boosts to catch up to you. Quite ridiculous to watch in the replay.
 

Magitex

Member
Can anyone give me the low-down on wheel support for GT6?

I've been relegated to an old usb madcatz, paired with a set of logitech pedals (attached through a rather broken usb logitech wheel). So essentially I have two wheels, one has working steering, the other has working pedals.

It's not a problem for PC gaming but I have the feeling GT6 isn't so customizable with axis selection.
To answer my own question:

Madcatz MK2 USB
Logitech Formula USB

Neither of these work in GT6 in any capacity.

Annoying thing is, I can literally drive around the interface using wheel and pedals, but inputs are completely ignored when it comes to race time. Whyyy :(
 
Sorry you think it is silly/not relevant. I believe my theory applies to everything you've just described... I'll try again. You say TTO unloads weight from the rear, losing traction. I agree. But what I believe this is doing, on the microscopic level, is reducing the contact patch of the rear tyres, concentrating the traction down to a very tiny area of the rubber surface, which then goes through the temperature fluctuations I described which reduce grip. I believe the tiny part of the tyre surface that remains 'loaded' has exceeded the heat 'limit' if you want to call it that - that is what is resulting in the slide. I mean, if the rear tyre was completely unloaded, it would lift off the ground, and cause an instant spin. We're talking about the rear being partially unloaded in an oversteer situation to reduce grip, not remove grip entirely. So in that instant, part of the tyre is still 'loaded', and that part is going nuts (while the rest of the tyre is at normal temperature). I mean, how could it not be going nuts? It's the only part of tyre left touching the road after the rest has been unloaded, and it is in slip. It is being dragged across road. There is friction, so there is heat, at the microscopic level. The molecules of rubber in direct contact with the road in that instance are having a really bad day.


I think my understanding of the 'cliff' in the current F1 tyre differs from yours, because I don't think it's relevant to what I was describing (or indeed, what you just described about entering a corner on the limit and spinning). The 'cliff' is a consequence of tyre wear, which causes the overall performance of the tyre to fall away after an extended period. This is not the same as the temporary loss of grip I'm describing during a single instance of slip, caused by the rapid surface temperature fluctuation. Such fluctuations return to normal immediately after the slip, and the tyre returns to full performance. The tyre surface is constantly fluctuating in temperature as you take corners, and by 'looking after' them, allowing the surface to return to the normal operating window after each corner, you can reduce overall wear and postpone the inevitable 'cliff' which happens when there is not enough rubber left. I wasn't talking about that. To put it in the context of GT6, the colour describes surface fluctuation as the cause/effect of slip, and the bars in the centre (which presumably go down in endurance events) would show the 'cliff' if it was an F1 tyre, with the wear decreasing at a fairly constant rate and then suddenly dropping away.


Again, you have separated what I believe is part of the same process. All unbalancing of the car you describe is just shifting the loads around the contact patches. You have repeated yourself so I'd better do the same - during TBO/TTO, the rear doesn't have enough grip as you say, because the tyres are unloaded to the point where the contact patch is tiny and going through concentrated temperature fluctuations on the surface. As for power oversteer, the weight transfer is to the rear, so the tyre is heavily loaded with a bigger contact patch, and a much more violent force (from the engine) needs to overcome the traction and cause all that surface heating, which happens much more rapidly, hence the snappiness.


Rain adds extra complication, and indeed traction is reduced overall by the liquid element. But where rubber meets road, it's the same deal. There are still parts of the rubber in direct contact with the road just the same as in the dry. The water is dispersed into the grooves, allowing small sections of rubber to touch the track. These sections, under slip, will again go through surface temperature fluctuations that change the grip level. I know it seems crazy to suggest that even in the rain, the rubber can overheat. But I think does, but I stress again, on a microscopic level, not the whole tyre. Look at the wet tyres in F1 - in wet starts/restarts, drivers on full wets weave side to side and do burnouts to get them up to operating temperature just like a dry tyre. If the rubber remained cool all the time in wet conditions, how could they heat tyres in this way?

TL;DR I believe any slip, from a massive drift to the subtlest TTO, causes significant temperature fluctuations on the tyre's surface at the microscopic level, which directly affects grip levels, moment to moment. It doesn't affect overall tyre performance unless the surface is overheated for an extended period of time (or if it is an extreme burnout that ruins the whole tyre in one shot). As long as the surface can return immediately to normal temperature after a slip, the overall performance will stay roughly the same until the tyre is completely worn.

Dude, you seem like a really nice guy, but you are talking absolute shit. Before I go on to the whole tire thing, the F1 tires this season have also had overheating problems which results in the same massive cliff of grip loss. So they are dual shitty and a main reason this last season sucked. It was all tire babying, no all out racing...also Vettel.

Anywho. Wow, ok, so I think you have the very basic principles of car handling and the physics involved with tires completely backwards. First off, heat isn't the same as friction, heat is "byproduct" of friction,not the cause of friction.

As a car tire begins to slide, it is moving from static friction to dynamic friction. Dynamic friction is where the majority of your tire heat is going to be generated (in racing scenarios), even though dynamic friction almost always has a smaller coefficient of friction than static friction. As you slide a car you are severely deforming and loading the tire rubber at the contact patch, the tire walls and the tread. This is where the heat is generated under cornering loads. As you corner you are affecting the contact patch you described, which on the rear tires of an instance like TTO narrows or reduces. You got that part right, but there is nothing microscopic about it. It can be inches of variation of how much rubber meets the road. However, the remaining rubber touching this road in the now unloaded tire, with a smaller contact patch, is going to have a smaller friction coefficient or "grip" than if the car's weight was pressing the rubber into the road with a nice fat contact patch. That is it. That is the extent of grip loss. You have reduced the amount of rubber touching the road and thus your total potential friction coefficient. A lower coefficient of friction is going to have less cornering grip and also generate less heat, not more. That is the concept of lubrication. You lower the coefficient of friction, less friction. Less friction less conversion to heat. You didn't make the tiny contact patch go microscopically "crazy" at a surface level, if anything you turned down the crazy as you snap oversteer, you won't even be generating much heat or tire deformation because the tire is unloading. You have far less potential to generate heat the more unloaded your tire is. Your rear tires are having a fucking vacation at the instance of TTO, not a heat orgy. You assume that the smaller contact patch that is resulting from less weight being pressed down is doing all of the same gripping "work" that it did when the tire was fully pressed into the ground with the larger contact patch. It can't and that is why its slip angle will increase. Not because it over heats.

Ah, but now that your ass end can no longer handle the cornering load you tasked it with and you are still trying to get through this corner, you have unbalanced the ratio of slip angles between the front and rear of your car. The rear will be slipping more and the front less. As you continue to increase the slip angle you will now be sliding sideways more and forward less. As you start to spin out, your rear tire is nearly full on dynamic friction with an extreme slip angle, deforming the shit out of the tread, and tire wall etc.

One last time. Surface temperature fluctuations DO NOT cause slip. You have this 100% backwards. Slip and the resulting dynamic friction increases tire and tread deformation which generates the excess heat associated with "racing hard" or over driving your car through the corners. In the TTO scenario, your tires are heating up in the wake of your mistakes, not causing your mistakes. Assuming this isn't a "cliff" situation where some of your tires are shot to shit. F1 wet tires overheat as the track dries up because you have extreme tread deformation due to the immense cornering loads of a modern F1 car on the treaded wet tires. As soon as the water is not there to cool down the tires from the massive tread deformation, you are going to get excessive heating.
 
Was I just never any good in the first place? Help me, GAF, I'm having a nervous breakdown!

Don't worry, that's just how a real S2000 handles. It's total bananas unless you really know what you're doing... on the other hand, it's one of the reasons why S2k's are fantastic haha.

Anyway, I was Micro Center yesterday with a friend looking for some RAM sticks. I walked over to the PS3 section and lo and behold a Ferrari Red Legend wheel was sitting on the shelf for $35 bucks. Flipped a coin and I lost so I bought it, turns out, it wasn't a bad idea after all.

There's a lot downsides to it: ridiculously small steering wheel, no clutch, and it doesn't even turn a full 360, reeling in oversteer is practically impossible. The positives on the other hand are quite great: steering is obviously smoother now compared to the jerky DS3, and that experience of using a wheel instead of a DS3 turned the game from a grindfest to a fun experience. I seriously was getting bored doing all the races and challenges with a DS3 but the wheel pretty much turned that around. Now I just need to find a cheap cockpit for this lol.
 
WOAH! What a difference it makes using 670 degrees lock with racing cars compated to 900. Catching slides doesn't require monkey arms any more.

Also, is it just me or do the wet tires seem like absolute garbage? I threw on Super Softs in 100% wet and I feel like I was barely slower. They fucked it up with GT5 at lauch as well. The SS tires were way faster than the wets in the rain.
 

ruttyboy

Member
Amazing, I got my first ever Youtube comment for that video and it from someone accusing me of swerving infront of the AI!? Fucking fanboy morons. Also, someone has liked his comment and 'thumbs down'ed the video, so that's two morons in denial at least...

Especially ironic as the reason I made the thing was because I was getting sick of people accusing anyone who said the AI hit them for no reason of swerving infront of them...

EDIT: Got another thumbs down... People really are deluded, I recorded the same thing from the drivers view to show I was going perfectly straight here, I imagine people will still accuse me of tricking their precious game.
 
WOAH! What a difference it makes using 670 degrees lock with racing cars compated to 900. Catching slides doesn't require monkey arms any more.

Also, is it just me or do the wet tires seem like absolute garbage? I threw on Super Softs in 100% wet and I feel like I was barely slower. They fucked it up with GT5 at lauch as well. The SS tires were way faster than the wets in the rain.
Doing the Rainmasters races with full wets and it was hideous, absolute nightmare. Though I was using a Huayra at the time!
 

Melfice7

Member
It's a shame collision physics are still as bad as ever, im all for clean racing but accidents happen and when they do they look and feel ridiculous :(
 

EGOMON

Member
After playing GT6 for one week now i have to disagree with people screaming
"OMG GT6 CARS SOUND SUCKS"
I believe PD have improved the sound engine in GT6 at least for number of cars especially the premium ones they sound like real life counter-parts i feel like people hating on GT just because everyone do so without trying to even give it a chance or test it.
 
so I haven't lost a race yet...except for these fuckin go karts. what am I doing wrong, I either spin out cos I corner too fast or slow down a bit and have every other fucker overtake me. heaven forbid you knick a wall. .. might aswell restart the race. anyone got any tips for the karts? first lot were easy but the clubman 100 can die
 

dalin80

Banned
Everything was going just fine in the standard career races until I tried to tackle the FR Challenge in National A with the Honda S2000 I won. My god, I don't know if I've just suddenly become really awful at this game or what, but I can't drive that car for shit. I've pumped 30,000 credits' worth of upgrades into the thing--brakes, sports tires, weight reduction, engine, suspension, etc.--and still, every turn I take (and even some straights), I feel like I have to baby the car and not turn in too much or I'll spin out. !

From what I have played at a friends it feels like with the new physics PD took the complaints of GT5 being too easy to drive and stable and over-compensated slightly. It is better then GT5's excessive understeer but does feel like it could do with nudging back very slightly. I have only played with a controller so far but would be interested if the more gradual input from a decent wheels and pedal set-up makes things easier.

You also have to be very careful with suspension set-up, in GT5 you could just slam every car all the way down and not be concerned about stability in the slightest, the settings are now much of a compromise with a delicate balance.
 

SaitoH

Member
Amazing, I got my first ever Youtube comment for that video and it from someone accusing me of swerving infront of the AI!? Fucking fanboy morons. Also, someone has liked his comment and 'thumbs down'ed the video, so that's two morons in denial at least...

Especially ironic as the reason I made the thing was because I was getting sick of people accusing anyone who said the AI hit them for no reason of swerving infront of them...

EDIT: Got another thumbs down... People really are deluded, I recorded the same thing from the drivers view to show I was going perfectly straight here, I imagine people will still accuse me of tricking their precious game.

I have the exact same issue with that mission. I've seen similar behaviour in other races, but nothing as egregious as that; It's like that mission is broken.
 
Amazing, I got my first ever Youtube comment for that video and it from someone accusing me of swerving infront of the AI!? Fucking fanboy morons. Also, someone has liked his comment and 'thumbs down'ed the video, so that's two morons in denial at least...

Especially ironic as the reason I made the thing was because I was getting sick of people accusing anyone who said the AI hit them for no reason of swerving infront of them...

EDIT: Got another thumbs down... People really are deluded, I recorded the same thing from the drivers view to show I was going perfectly straight here, I imagine people will still accuse me of tricking their precious game.

It's the internet. Don't read much into it.
 
I have the exact same issue with that mission. I've seen similar behaviour in other races, but nothing as egregious as that; It's like that mission is broken.

Calling that mission broken implies it's impossible to gold it, which some people including me were able to do. I am not downplaying the fact that the AI GT-R drives like a maniac, but if you treat that mission as a race against time like in the licence tests and not a race against the other GT-R you will find that by driving the perfect line, like you do in those licence tests, the AI will be a non factor after you passed him in third corner. That was for me the case at least. Yes, the AI will catch up in some places, but if you have to battle against it all the time it means you are not in the gold time range and you can restart the mission.
 

Dead Man

Member
Calling that mission broken implies it's impossible to gold it, which some people including me were able to do. I am not downplaying the fact that the AI GT-R drives like a maniac, but if you treat that mission as a race against time like in the licence tests and not a race against the other GT-R you will find that by driving the perfect line, like you do in those licence tests, the AI will be a non factor after you passed him in third corner. That was for me the case at least. Yes, the AI will catch up in some places, but if you have to battle against it all the time means you are not in the gold time range and you can restart the mission.

I think it could be broken but still passable. If the AI car is decoration to be ignored, I think that could be a sign of being broken. Keeping in mind I still don't have the game, so I'm speaking in generalities here :)
 
I think it could be broken but still passable. If the AI car is decoration to be ignored, I think that could be a sign of being broken. Keeping in mind I still don't have the game, so I'm speaking in generalities here :)

It's there to push you (not literally), but I'd recommend to ignore it, once you pass it. It could get close, make you nervous and then you might make mistakes or slow down more than you should.
 
It's there to push you (not literally), but I'd recommend to ignore it, once you pass it. It could get close, make you nervous and then you might make mistakes or slow down more than you should.

Yes, that is what I wanted to say. The only real opponent should be your ghost.
 
So apparently GT6 has some sort of streamline update feature.

"If you’ve been playing GT6 since version 1.01 was launched on December 5th, you might have noticed something – changes to the software are being pushed out every few days in minor updates, released quietly without online service downtime or an official list of documented changes.

This streamlined update mechanism has already been used to fix minor bugs, and was most notably used to activate the BMW M4 Coupé in the game’s BMW dealership.

Earlier today, the latest update introduced a “News Ticker” to deliver real-time announcements to players in the game. The News Ticker’s first big announcement confirms the BMW M4 will be updated to include a full interior view, seen in all the game’s other “Premium” cars."
http://www.gtplanet.net/gt6-minor-updates/
 
Oh man, I think I busted up my thumb from using the default square and X button. Had to switch to L2 and R2 and feels odd using my middle fingers for braking and accelerating.

Regarding the AI in this game, I've a couple of times where they would speed up like crazy during the last few seconds to the end of final lap and or try to bump me off from winning. Sneaky lil AI they are.
 
So apparently GT6 has some sort of streamline update feature.

"If you’ve been playing GT6 since version 1.01 was launched on December 5th, you might have noticed something – changes to the software are being pushed out every few days in minor updates, released quietly without online service downtime or an official list of documented changes.

This streamlined update mechanism has already been used to fix minor bugs, and was most notably used to activate the BMW M4 Coupé in the game’s BMW dealership.

Earlier today, the latest update introduced a “News Ticker” to deliver real-time announcements to players in the game. The News Ticker’s first big announcement confirms the BMW M4 will be updated to include a full interior view, seen in all the game’s other “Premium” cars."
http://www.gtplanet.net/gt6-minor-updates/

Yes, it has. You boot up the game and every now and then you get an in-game notification that an update is available. It downloads and updates everything seamlessly. While it's great that it works better and faster than the PSN updates, you never know what changed, because they don't provide a change log for the smaller updates. They also don't change the version number, so I expect that those still come through PSN like usual.
 

Bunta

Fujiwara Tofu Shop
After playing GT6 for one week now i have to disagree with people screaming
"OMG GT6 CARS SOUND SUCKS"
I believe PD have improved the sound engine in GT6 at least for number of cars especially the premium ones they sound like real life counter-parts i feel like people hating on GT just because everyone do so without trying to even give it a chance or test it.

I find some cars sound better than others in terms of quality.
 

Neptune

Member
I am having the worst time trying to succeed in the GT World Championship. The cars you need to use are a lot more powerful than what I'm used to; I can't keep them under control and keep hitting the walls and sliding off track. Using the nose-cam view is also really difficult, because it's so shaky and bumpy now that it makes my head hurt.

Does anyone have any suggested tuning options for the Sauber C9, the Minolta or the 787B that I might try to hopefully make it a little easier? And are there any specific settings under Driving Options that should be changed or enabled?
 

Calabi

Member
They really need damage or some kind of penalty for racing in this. I can drive like a complete idiot, spinning out on corners, shortcutting corners, hit other cars, fly ten feet into the air and still win the race.

I like driving in this learning the cars, racing line and correct braking but it doesnt force me to play better.
 

IISANDERII

Member
Everything was going just fine in the standard career races until I tried to tackle the FR Challenge in National A with the Honda S2000 I won. My god, I don't know if I've just suddenly become really awful at this game or what, but I can't drive that car for shit. I've pumped 30,000 credits' worth of upgrades into the thing--brakes, sports tires, weight reduction, engine, suspension, etc.--and still, every turn I take (and even some straights), I feel like I have to baby the car and not turn in too much or I'll spin out. Every race has me on pins and needles trying not to crash the thing, and if I thought Silverstone with the GT-R was bad, this is a thousand times worse.

I honestly don't know what I'm doing wrong. I have TCS set to 5 but I think the skid reduction stuff and all that is off. I yearn for the safety and predictability of the Clio that I've won countless early races with by landslides. I honestly don't remember having this much trouble in previous Gran Turismos. Am I going crazy? Am I too old for this game? Are my reflexes shot? Was I just never any good in the first place? Help me, GAF, I'm having a nervous breakdown!
The Honda S2000 '06 is just like it was in GT5: Incredibly easy to drive, neutral handling. I have it bone stock and no assists[except ABS] and it presents no difficulties whatsoever.
I am certain that somewhere along the way, those upgrades you installed have everything to do with your hardship.
 
The Honda S2000 '06 is just like it was in GT5: Incredibly easy to drive, neutral handling. I have it bone stock and no assists[except ABS] and it presents no difficulties whatsoever.
I am certain that somewhere along the way, those upgrades you installed have everything to do with your hardship.

Even bone stock I find it easy to spin the car out, and also too slow for the FR challenge (turns out the PP limit is 580, and the car starts at ~425). With the upgrades it's actually slightly easier to drive fast, but it's still very touchy to me. I'm playing with a DFGT, if that makes any difference.

I haven't actually bought any other cars because I wanted to see how far I could get with just prize cars, but I might have to drop that plan anyways if I want to finish the other National B races so I guess I'll buy another FR and see if it's better for me.

P.S. I am fully willing to admit that I might just suck at GT despite playing all of them. I barely got bronze on that GT-R Mission B-5 as well, and other people in this thread are all "drive faster" and I'm like "I'M TRYING" so I think my skill level is well under the average here.
 
It really, really sucks that we can't properly share the GT replays, because it would really help in situations like this. You could watch other players replays and see where you could improve of give them tips, where they could improve. And obviously not everyone has a capture card.

I wish there was a better solution than sitting with your phone in front of the TV, recording it with in a terrible quality and then uploading it to YouTube.
 

Calabi

Member
Even bone stock I find it easy to spin the car out, and also too slow for the FR challenge (turns out the PP limit is 580, and the car starts at ~425). With the upgrades it's actually slightly easier to drive fast, but it's still very touchy to me. I'm playing with a DFGT, if that makes any difference.

I haven't actually bought any other cars because I wanted to see how far I could get with just prize cars, but I might have to drop that plan anyways if I want to finish the other National B races so I guess I'll buy another FR and see if it's better for me.

P.S. I am fully willing to admit that I might just suck at GT despite playing all of them. I barely got bronze on that GT-R Mission B-5 as well, and other people in this thread are all "drive faster" and I'm like "I'M TRYING" so I think my skill level is well under the average here.

I dont think its just you. I've been trying to win the night races with it. So many times, I've spun out. Car is really touchy when braking.
 
What I found really hard to drive was the new M4. I can't count the times I spun out during the seasonal and I know it took me hours to not only gold it, but beat the given time by an amount I was happy with (almost a second, 2:17.097 or something). It doesn't help that I absolutely suck with high-performance cars and sport hard tires. That seasonal was way harder and less fun than the B-5 mission for me. But with a bit patience (hours of it, actually) and some learning and adjusting, it's all possible. And I get that not everyone is in the mood for that.
 
So I discovered the purpose of the stockyard today...

I guess the garage can only hold 500 cars before you have to move cars to...a second garage with a different name.

The really stupid bit about this is that it happened to me while I was buying up a lot of cheap Mazdas, so I put them all in the stockyard, went back to the dealership and they were no longer listed as owned. I find this rather annoying and it seems like some sort of silly memory limitation in the game's backend.

I expect GT7 on PS4 to fix every one of these small issues or PD will really just come off as an inept studio coasting on its former successes.
 

Niks

Member
It really, really sucks that we can't properly share the GT replays, because it would really help in situations like this. You could watch other players replays and see where you could improve of give them tips, where they could improve. And obviously not everyone has a capture card.

I wish there was a better solution than sitting with your phone in front of the TV, recording it with in a terrible quality and then uploading it to YouTube.

PS4 to the rescue.
Seriously though, the sharing feature is going to be great for gt7, hopefully by then we will be able to export to youtube.
 

Dash Kappei

Not actually that important
I warmly suggest you try your best to avoid using the stockyard yet. It's super buggy atm and 95% of the issues with saves wiping out cars you own seems to be related with people using the stockyard
 
PS4 to the rescue.
Seriously though, the sharing feature is going to be great for gt7, hopefully by then we will be able to export to youtube.

You already can, although not directly. Just enable archiving on Twitch then upload to youtube from Twitch.
 

DEO3

Member
What I found really hard to drive was the new M4. I can't count the times I spun out during the seasonal and I know it took me hours to not only gold it, but beat the given time by an amount I was happy with (almost a second, 2:17.097 or something). It doesn't help that I absolutely suck with high-performance cars and sport hard tires. That seasonal was way harder and less fun than the B-5 mission for me. But with a bit patience (hours of it, actually) and some learning and adjusting, it's all possible. And I get that not everyone is in the mood for that.

I hated the M4 in the seasonal, but get some sports softs on it and it becomes an amazing car to use in the campaign.
 

Radec

Member
-0.01 Seconds!
Win a race by a margin of 0.01 seconds or less. (1)

-Three Miraculous Laps
Record a lap time that's within 0.2 seconds of the best lap time for three consecutive laps.


Wtf. Thats hard. lol
 

conman

Member
Nope, easily catch up to, pass and out corner the AI by many car lengths(they brake early). It's just this one mission event where the ai GTR literally boosts to catch up to you. Quite ridiculous to watch in the replay.
Yeah, that replay is pretty ridiculous. But I was actually talking about that specific mission (B-5). I'm not saying it wasn't a bit of a challenge to get gold (30mins or so), but the only times the AI ever touched me after I passed it was when I'd screwed up a corner. The reason that replay shows the person getting caught on the straight is because they took the prior corner badly and didn't come out of it with enough speed. So the AI caught them... popo style.

But your larger point remains, the AI is no doubt screwy. Massive (and inconsistent) rubber banding. Leads to all kinds of strange incongruities and accidents.
 
Go slow, faster, then faster than that.

It's pretty hard to intentionally go 0,2 sec faster/slow. The best way to achieve that is on oval tracks with an easy car and just do the same thing for 3 laps.

Or just spend hours and hours learning a track until you can't improve your time anymore and all the laps will be the same.
 

ethomaz

Banned
It's pretty hard to intentionally go 0,2 sec faster/slow. The best way to achieve that is on oval tracks with an easy car and just do the same thing for 3 laps.

Or just spend hours and hours learning a track until you can't improve your time anymore and all the laps will be the same.
I did that on oval track and used manual crunch to hold the speed to not have trouble to make the turns equal in each lap.... the difference in the laps was always close to 0.2 sec... I just did that until the trophy popup.
 
Anywho. Wow, ok, so I think you have the very basic principles of car handling and the physics involved with tires completely backwards. First off, heat isn't the same as friction, heat is "byproduct" of friction,not the cause of friction.

As a car tire begins to slide, it is moving from static friction to dynamic friction. Dynamic friction is where the majority of your tire heat is going to be generated (in racing scenarios), even though dynamic friction almost always has a smaller coefficient of friction than static friction. As you slide a car you are severely deforming and loading the tire rubber at the contact patch, the tire walls and the tread. This is where the heat is generated under cornering loads. As you corner you are affecting the contact patch you described, which on the rear tires of an instance like TTO narrows or reduces. You got that part right, but there is nothing microscopic about it. It can be inches of variation of how much rubber meets the road. However, the remaining rubber touching this road in the now unloaded tire, with a smaller contact patch, is going to have a smaller friction coefficient or "grip" than if the car's weight was pressing the rubber into the road with a nice fat contact patch. That is it. That is the extent of grip loss. You have reduced the amount of rubber touching the road and thus your total potential friction coefficient. A lower coefficient of friction is going to have less cornering grip and also generate less heat, not more. That is the concept of lubrication. You lower the coefficient of friction, less friction. Less friction less conversion to heat. You didn't make the tiny contact patch go microscopically "crazy" at a surface level, if anything you turned down the crazy as you snap oversteer, you won't even be generating much heat or tire deformation because the tire is unloading. You have far less potential to generate heat the more unloaded your tire is. Your rear tires are having a fucking vacation at the instance of TTO, not a heat orgy. You assume that the smaller contact patch that is resulting from less weight being pressed down is doing all of the same gripping "work" that it did when the tire was fully pressed into the ground with the larger contact patch. It can't and that is why its slip angle will increase. Not because it over heats.

Ah, but now that your ass end can no longer handle the cornering load you tasked it with and you are still trying to get through this corner, you have unbalanced the ratio of slip angles between the front and rear of your car. The rear will be slipping more and the front less. As you continue to increase the slip angle you will now be sliding sideways more and forward less. As you start to spin out, your rear tire is nearly full on dynamic friction with an extreme slip angle, deforming the shit out of the tread, and tire wall etc.

One last time. Surface temperature fluctuations DO NOT cause slip. You have this 100% backwards. Slip and the resulting dynamic friction increases tire and tread deformation which generates the excess heat associated with "racing hard" or over driving your car through the corners. In the TTO scenario, your tires are heating up in the wake of your mistakes, not causing your mistakes. Assuming this isn't a "cliff" situation where some of your tires are shot to shit. F1 wet tires overheat as the track dries up because you have extreme tread deformation due to the immense cornering loads of a modern F1 car on the treaded wet tires. As soon as the water is not there to cool down the tires from the massive tread deformation, you are going to get excessive heating.
While it would be nice to not call my interpretation 'silly' or 'absolute shit', I appreciate you taking the time to write these replies.

I think we both have the same understanding of unbalancing a car to transfer loads around the tyres. Where we differ is on what is happening precisely on the surface of the tyre at any given moment. You think my interpretation is completely opposing yours, when I really don't think they are that far apart.

You describe a clear separation between grip and slip - two phases, where heat is only generated in the second phase, and is a 'byproduct' of the slip. You also describe it as 'static friction' and 'dynamic friction', where only 'dynamic friction' causes heat. In my interpretation, there is no clear line where one ends and one begins, and that they are inextricably linked - there is just one continuously evolving phase.

For a start, I'm not sure you can call a rolling tyre (even in a fairly steady state) 'static friction'. The fact that is rolling is one of the main reasons why tyres are so hard to understand - there is variation in the loads on the contact patch at all times, and can't possibly exhibit identical behaviour to a traditional example of static friction (such as box on the ground). In a simplified model, they would be similar, but in the context of discussing tyre slip, I don't think such comparison is useful, as you have to consider what is happening on the surface at the microscopic level (I know I keep saying that but I really think it's important). While I have no doubt that a basic rolling tyre is in a more stable state than if it is in a detectable slip, I don't think it could ever be described as 'static'. The technicalities of friction types would make for a very long discussion, but I think a rolling tyre can be described as exhibiting 'dynamic friction' all the time, until the car stops moving.

So what I'm suggesting is that the transition to slip from 'grip' is a continuous process that involves all of the elements we've been describing from the moment a tyre starts rolling at a reasonable speed, even if there is no noticeable slip. What we perceive as a subtle slip from TBO/TTO is already well beyond the 'starting point' of slip, which was happening on the microscopic scale long before the driver can notice. This microscopic slip, at a fairly steady state, would be perceived by the driver as 100% grip. It just continues to ramp up to point where it is noticeable.

As for temperature fluctuations not causing slip, well that's a really difficult one to call based on how I'm describing it as one process. I think we agree that more temperature definitely causes more slip when already in a big slide, but whether it was there at the start is almost like a chicken/egg scenario. Just like the microscopic beginnings of slip are indetectable by the driver, the microscopic temperature fluctuations would also be there, indetectable even by sensors. What starts first? Well I guess you could say it was slip, as the surface temperature is not going to vary until the tyre starts rolling, but the temperature response would be instantaneous (at the microscopic scale), so I don't think it matters either way. By the time both are detectable, they are directly affecting each other, with more temperature making it more difficult to recover the slip (which I think was the original discussion).

And with regards to the F1 wet tyre warming - I wasn't talking about a drying track. The drivers warm the tyres by weaving in full wet conditions, and the only way I can explain that is because it must still be possible to generate surface temperature fluctuations with slip on the parts of tread making direct contact with the track, even with water everywhere: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeXKPm_MYvw
 
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