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Gran Turismo 6 |OT| Moon Rover The Castle

FrankWza

Member
Yeah, that replay is pretty ridiculous. But I was actually talking about that specific mission (B-5). I'm not saying it wasn't a bit of a challenge to get gold (30mins or so), but the only times the AI ever touched me after I passed it was when I'd screwed up a corner. The reason that replay shows the person getting caught on the straight is because they took the prior corner badly and didn't come out of it with enough speed. So the AI caught them... popo style.

But your larger point remains, the AI is no doubt screwy. Massive (and inconsistent) rubber banding. Leads to all kinds of strange incongruities and accidents.


this is it 100%. the last session that i golded it i did a pretty good first lap and came in at silver in something under .1 seconds. so it was interesting playing the ghost and red to see where turns needed to be taken and how because i knew i just needed to beat ghost by any amount for gold. i ended up with a poor mans drift through that last twisty part even dropping to second gear very briefly and was able to overtake my ghost. thats a great spot to make up time or gain time. a few times id still lose to ghost but finally did it by finishing correctly and outdriving the ghost for gold. but it was my fault because in my later races there were points that i drove better than my ghost and points where ghost was much better. there are certain spots in that race that really punish you for being sloppy and really reward you for driving it perfect. but the other crazy part is the AI car acted/performed differently pretty much every race. no doubt its on rails almost but i think there are a few predetermined paths it can take in a few different times and you cant get in the way of any of them at certain spots or he will bump you somehow. also i was cursing at my ghost when it was obvious i couldnt beat him a few times.... so i was cursing at myself.
 
So i completed the international B race series which is the finale for that class... gold... but it did not unlock the international A series... is this a glitch? Anyone else had this issue. I had previously suspended the race, and started it up again today to finish it. Perhaps the suspend caused a glitch?
 
The topography of the PS3's track is noticeably better than PCars. You can see the dips and crests clearly, PCars looks flatter. It's especially obvious toward's the end of that lap.

I have the Project Cars beta (I have access to the junior builds) and you are absolutely bang on with the console sims like GT6 have superior topographical data to CARS. Even with GT's disgraceful engine notes, it's still a superior driving experience to CARS because they simulate a fucking bump and a dip.
 

Jibbed

Member
I have the Project Cars beta (I have access to the junior builds) and you are absolutely bang on with the console sims like GT6 have superior topographical data to CARS. Even with GT's disgraceful engine notes, it's still a superior driving experience to CARS because they simulate a fucking bump and a dip.

Still nothing on iRacing though, everything in that game is laser-scanned and accurate to a ridiculous degree,

From what I played of GT5 though, yeah the tracks were probably the most impressive aspect of the game.
 

gogogow

Member
Comparison between Gran Turismo 6 and Project CARS at Bathurst circuit with the Caterham 7:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXN6IBhbQmg

GT6 looks better imo.
Two things:
- The leaves on the ground in PCars are distracting and it just looks weird and out of place.
- The popup reflection in PCars is also distracting and with such a monster rig running the game, that shouldn't even have happened.

GT games since PS2 always had 60fps and nice looking reflection, kudos to PD for that.
 

Emwitus

Member
Still nothing on iRacing though, everything in that game is laser-scanned and accurate to a ridiculous degree,

From what I played of GT5 though, yeah the tracks were probably the most impressive aspect of the game.

That's because polyphony laser scans their tracks too.
 

MisterM

Member
Weird. I think there's something going on with the game because I have certainly encountered my share of cars that are undriveable so maybe there's some trigger that creates that condition.

There's a thread at GTplanet listing which cars seem to spin with extreme ease.

I'm not that far in but the first RWD car I bought was a MKII MR2 and it was horrible to drive..spinning it was insanely easy. I thought it was the shape of things to come for some reason but every other RWD has been much, much easier to control.
 

flashmouth

Neo Member
So i completed the international B race series which is the finale for that class... gold... but it did not unlock the international A series... is this a glitch? Anyone else had this issue. I had previously suspended the race, and started it up again today to finish it. Perhaps the suspend caused a glitch?

You need to do the license test for Int. A to enter the series.
 
Question:

I bought the digital copy and I by passed the teach you how to drive segment because I had to leave. Now I home to race, and can't even select arcade mode to play the game everything is rejected. It even keeps telling me my time settings are wrong but they are right. HELP.

EDIT: Figured it out, you have to purchase the vehicle first.
 
Just took the stock S2000 for a spin in Laguna Seca, Eiger and the 'ring.

Just feather the throttle.

Don't mash the gas to the floor going in/during the turn as it'll easily oversteer, keep it below 75%. Once you're out of the turn or you've pointed the car to a straight line then feel free to put the pedal to the metal. It's a basic driving technique. :p
 

ruttyboy

Member
Just tried out the M4 seasonal and been challenged for pretty much the first time so far. With zero assists, that thing is a right mess! Not that I could ever afford one, but if the real thing handles like that I wouldn't touch it! :)
 
are you fucking kidding me with the Mercedes Concept car having a blacked out cockpit? all these videos in the game making a big fuss about it and its not even a premium model.
 
Just took the stock S2000 for a spin in Laguna Seca, Eiger and the 'ring.

Just feather the throttle.

Don't mash the gas to the floor going in/during the turn as it'll easily oversteer, keep it below 75%. Once you're out of the turn or you've pointed the car to a straight line then feel free to put the pedal to the metal. It's a basic driving technique. :p

That's basically what I've been doing with the car to keep it stable. I guess I'm used to going all-out in previous games, but I've read a few posts suggesting the new tire physics mean you really have to be careful not to overwhelm the car's grip. That said, I switched to an RX-7 Bathurst and cleared Silverstone with ease. So I guess the S2000 and I just don't agree with one another.

Later, for the Classic Car races I bought an El Camino, expecting to get trampled in an entertaining fashion. Holy geez, that thing is a BEAST. Only three gears but legs that go on for miles! Plus it's real neat passing tiny roadsters in your giant truck. Even Silverstone was mostly no problem for the thing.
 
Its crazy how PD managed to pull a more realistic look on hardware thats 8 years old. I need to know what GT on the PS4 will look like.

That realistic look is thanks to the perfectly tuned lighting. It really baffles me how sim race devs don't invest more time developing their lighting engine. If anyone is interested in the subject I strongly recommend watching this year's Kojima Productions GDC presentation on Fox Engine. They show how the engine handles light and it looks super realistic. GTAV too has amazing lighting.
 
are you fucking kidding me with the Mercedes Concept car having a blacked out cockpit? all these videos in the game making a big fuss about it and its not even a premium model.
It is a Premium model. 'Premium' doesn't just mean 'modelled cockpit'. It means the exterior detail is a massive improvement compared to the 'Standard' models. The Vision GT is modelled to Premium quality on the outside. There is no interior because there is no interior in the real car (it currently exists as a rolling model). There are sketches of an interior, so it may be updated later if Mercedes finalise the design.
 
While it would be nice to not call my interpretation 'silly' or 'absolute shit', I appreciate you taking the time to write these replies.

I think we both have the same understanding of unbalancing a car to transfer loads around the tyres. Where we differ is on what is happening precisely on the surface of the tyre at any given moment. You think my interpretation is completely opposing yours, when I really don't think they are that far apart.

You describe a clear separation between grip and slip - two phases, where heat is only generated in the second phase, and is a 'byproduct' of the slip. You also describe it as 'static friction' and 'dynamic friction', where only 'dynamic friction' causes heat. In my interpretation, there is no clear line where one ends and one begins, and that they are inextricably linked - there is just one continuously evolving phase.

For a start, I'm not sure you can call a rolling tyre (even in a fairly steady state) 'static friction'. The fact that is rolling is one of the main reasons why tyres are so hard to understand - there is variation in the loads on the contact patch at all times, and can't possibly exhibit identical behaviour to a traditional example of static friction (such as box on the ground). In a simplified model, they would be similar, but in the context of discussing tyre slip, I don't think such comparison is useful, as you have to consider what is happening on the surface at the microscopic level (I know I keep saying that but I really think it's important). While I have no doubt that a basic rolling tyre is in a more stable state than if it is in a detectable slip, I don't think it could ever be described as 'static'. The technicalities of friction types would make for a very long discussion, but I think a rolling tyre can be described as exhibiting 'dynamic friction' all the time, until the car stops moving.

So what I'm suggesting is that the transition to slip from 'grip' is a continuous process that involves all of the elements we've been describing from the moment a tyre starts rolling at a reasonable speed, even if there is no noticeable slip. What we perceive as a subtle slip from TBO/TTO is already well beyond the 'starting point' of slip, which was happening on the microscopic scale long before the driver can notice. This microscopic slip, at a fairly steady state, would be perceived by the driver as 100% grip. It just continues to ramp up to point where it is noticeable.

As for temperature fluctuations not causing slip, well that's a really difficult one to call based on how I'm describing it as one process. I think we agree that more temperature definitely causes more slip when already in a big slide, but whether it was there at the start is almost like a chicken/egg scenario. Just like the microscopic beginnings of slip are indetectable by the driver, the microscopic temperature fluctuations would also be there, indetectable even by sensors. What starts first? Well I guess you could say it was slip, as the surface temperature is not going to vary until the tyre starts rolling, but the temperature response would be instantaneous (at the microscopic scale), so I don't think it matters either way. By the time both are detectable, they are directly affecting each other, with more temperature making it more difficult to recover the slip (which I think was the original discussion).

And with regards to the F1 wet tyre warming - I wasn't talking about a drying track. The drivers warm the tyres by weaving in full wet conditions, and the only way I can explain that is because it must still be possible to generate surface temperature fluctuations with slip on the parts of tread making direct contact with the track, even with water everywhere: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeXKPm_MYvw

Sorry, the "talking shit" comment doesn't come off as light hearted in writing. It is an expression, I wasn't calling you shit.

You are so close to understanding how this works but you still have the most critical aspect backwards.

I want to say thank you for continuing this discussion too because I have learned a lot re-reading the basics and looking up new articles. Coincidentally my wife asked yesterday about why ABS is good and how it works so this has been a good primer. Hahaha

Ok, static friction does not generate heat and a free rolling tire with no turning, hard breaking or accelerating is definitely in a state of static friction. I triple checked this across numerous articles in tire physics just to make sure. If splitting hairs is necessary, then yes there probably is a very minute amount of dynamic friction but it is unsubstantial and not the source of heat in a free rolling static situation.

Tires heat up when rolling forward due to the deformation of the tire at the contact patch. The tire will always be a tiny bit flat at the contact patch. Under-inflated tires over heat even quicker due to the extra deformation at the contact patch. This heating from deformation is through the entire tire, not just the surface. The side wall, tread and carcass are all being compressed and uncompressed across the entire diameter of the tire at the contact patch every rotation of the tire. This is why tires get hot on highways even without turns and why the Veyron's tires need to be special, to handle the insane heat build up at those speeds. Heat in this instance of static friction is not happening because the rubber is rubbing against the road like in dynamic friction, but because rubber is rubbing against rubber as it stretched and compresses throughout the entire tire as it rotates.

Ok on to slip and dynamic friction scenarios. All tires have an optimal slip angle. Old narrow treaded 60's era F1 cars, this angle was pretty large. Hence the bad ass slides. Modern F1 cars, it is much smaller. You primarily control the slip angle with the wheel, obviously, but also with the brake and gas to shift weight forward and backward. Unless you are overheating your tires to an extreme level, any minute, especially "microscopic" temperature fluctuations are going to have a negligible if not undetectable effect on the cornering behavior of your car. Tires out of their ideal range are going to have less potential grip, but you can still further reduce or increase their available grip through weight transfer. The hundreds if not thousands of pounds of weight you can quickly shift around through steering and pedal inputs is going to be what likely unbalances your car. How could you even determine what "microscopic" surface temperature fluctuations would be good or bad? Depending on the situation, more heat could result in more grip so less sliding, or a bit of cooling could provide more grip. This is the major flaw in your thinking. You seem to think that the unbelievably minute fluctuations of the tire surface are what primarily changes your total available grip of the friction coefficient of the contact patch, and the overall behavior of the car. Yes, of course any tire is going to have an ideal operating temperature but these are given in ranges of degrees, sometimes hundred of degrees. The range is not measured in hundredths of degrees. Yes, theoretically you could build a perfect car that drives perfectly on a perfectly uniform surface to such an extent of consistency and control of variables that variations in the handling characteristics of the car might come down to "microscopic" temperature fluctuations. Maybe in this theoretical scenario, hundredths of degrees of tire temperature fluctuations may need to be accounted for in relation to car balance.

But, these are just race cars and road cars. Hundreds and thousand of pounds of weight is constantly being redistributed to all four tires. This is the primary way the contact patch is going to change size, and the change in the contact patch size is going to be the primary variable in the friction coefficient and therefore your total available grip. This is why suspension setups have such a huge effect on handling. It is changing how the weight transfers across your car and how the tire is coming in contact with the roar, or its contact patch. This is why we have active suspension for improved cornering, not active tire heating.

To go back one last time to why TTO happens, you snap off the throttle which creates a rapid transfer of weight forward, reducing the contact patch and potential static and dynamic friction at the rear tire, while simultaneously doing the opposite to the front. Temperature has nothing to do with why you spin. Your tires don't need to be hot, or they can be nearing over heating , it doesn't matter. The principles of TTO remains exactly the same.

Please excuse the typos, I am on a phone with a cracked screen. I'll edit later.
Edit: Fixed some typos, clarified some statements.
 
That realistic look is thanks to the perfectly tuned lighting. It really baffles me how sim race devs don't invest more time developing their lighting engine. If anyone is interested in the subject I strongly recommend watching this year's Kojima Productions GDC presentation on Fox Engine. They show how the engine handles light and it looks super realistic. GTAV too has amazing lighting.

Guys behind Assetto Corsa seem to finally have gotten it.

Video does GT a favour by cutting off the trees too.
That's funny because dithered trees are also a problem on pCARS. Just not on Bathurst.
 

Dead Man

Member
Interesting comparison. Imo the lighting looks better in GT6, and the track accuracy is slightly better too. Even the suspension feedback is marginally as well.Tree's have some weird dithering going on in the GT6 vid though.

Track surface looks much better in PCars (weird leaves as aside), other than that, yeah.
 
The Ferrari GTO '84 is a hell of a lot of fun to drive. It likes to get it's ass out.
I just finished the 500pp Touring Car Cup in International A with it. The Bathurst race was epic.
 

Megasoum

Banned
Welp....well... I now have 240 000 000$ in the bank plus all the cars I wanted (including all the Ferraris lol)... I think I can go back to racing now.
 

TTG

Member
Welp....well... I now have 240 000 000$ in the bank plus all the cars I wanted (including all the Ferraris lol)... I think I can go back to racing now.

Can't blame you there, I sold one AMG Vision car myself. Had the second to last panel(ia) unlocked, using the anniversary and gift cars where I could, and my stash of credits was still only 2.3 mil or something. Polyphony is stingy with the rewards in career mode and I don't really have the patience to wait for 500k+ seasonals to show up again... so it had to be done. Think about the bare minimum we would all want to try:

DeltaWing - 2 mil
FXX - 2 mil
F1 GTR - 1.75 mil

The list goes on and on. At some point we all want to pick up a Red Bull, that's another 6. There's probably 20 mil's worth of cars a good garage should have without a lot of overlap from GT5 and not aiming at the classics with stratospheric price tags.
 

Megasoum

Banned
Can't blame you there, I sold one AMG Vision car myself. Had the second to last panel(ia) unlocked, using the anniversary and gift cars where I could, and my stash of credits was still only 2.3 mil or something. Polyphony is stingy with the rewards in career mode and I don't really have the patience to wait for 500k+ seasonals to show up again... so it had to be done. Think about the bare minimum we would all want to try:

DeltaWing - 2 mil
FXX - 2 mil
F1 GTR - 1.75 mil

The list goes on and on. At some point we all want to pick up a Red Bull, that's another 6. There's probably 20 mil's worth of cars a good garage should have without a lot of overlap from GT5 and not aiming at the classics with stratospheric price tags.

Oh the Delta Wing...forgot about that one. I'll use my spare change to buy it lol.
 
I don't wanna do this money glitch, but I really want a Huayra and only have 350k Cr. :/

And that's not even close to the most expensive car in the game.
 

IISANDERII

Member
If anybody's looking for a good car for online in the 450-500pp range, try the Ferrari 365 GTB4 '71. It's not super fun to drive but it does corner well enough and is very fast. I just dominated a room with it and had never driven the car before the race and have only seen the track once before. And trust me, I'm not that good, it was the car.
I don't wanna do this money glitch, but I really want a Huayra and only have 350k Cr. :/

And that's even close to the most expensive car in the game.
Don't forget about upgrades, tires, racing kits etc. I've already spent 4million on tuning parts alone and I've only had the game since Tuesday.
 
Really?

That's surprising, I assumed it was a showcase for high end hardware.

PCARS has its issues. Most of them are forgivable however, given the nature of the development and the limited financial resources available. PD has absolutely no fucking excuse whatsoever for their garbage audio sampling and lack of mechanical damage. Thats just unforgivable in 2013. I wish PD would swallow their pride and outsource things, its not like they cant afford to have a small army work on sound processing and car modelling. Shit, call the outsourced car models "standard" models for all we care.
 
The moon missions were a lot of fun, especially the last one. Too bad there were only the three :\

I have newfound appreciation for this beast:

989676.jpg

Fun as hell to drive on Matterhorn, and probably has one of the better sounding engines in the game, even if it isn't close to the real thing.

National A has a fuckton of events @_@
 

SatansReverence

Hipster Princess
GT6 looks better imo.
Two things:
- The leaves on the ground in PCars are distracting and it just looks weird and out of place.
- The popup reflection in PCars is also distracting and with such a monster rig running the game, that shouldn't even have happened.

GT games since PS2 always had 60fps and nice looking reflection, kudos to PD for that.

Youtube videos are extremely flattering to GT6 and it's using over cast to hide the poor shadow work which on Bathurst can be down right terrible at times.
 
Man, the Supercar Festival on la Sarthe. I absolutely suck at that track and the AI was right up my ass the whole time. I got goosebumps on the last lap when the night sky lit up with fireworks. Moments like that are what keep me playing GT.
 
PCARS has its issues. Most of them are forgivable however, given the nature of the development and the limited financial resources available. PD has absolutely no fucking excuse whatsoever for their garbage audio sampling and lack of mechanical damage. Thats just unforgivable in 2013. I wish PD would swallow their pride and outsource things, its not like they cant afford to have a small army work on sound processing and car modelling. Shit, call the outsourced car models "standard" models for all we care.

It also has a fraction of the cars and will be 30fps on the same hardware.

Youtube videos are extremely flattering to GT6 and it's using over cast to hide the poor shadow work which on Bathurst can be down right terrible at times.
What poor shadow work? Please don't tell me you are talking about the gametrailers gif of the shadows glitching when zooming in on the replay.
 

SatansReverence

Hipster Princess
It also has a fraction of the cars and will be 30fps on the same hardware.

What poor shadow work? Please don't tell me you are talking about the gametrailers gif of the shadows glitching when zooming in on the replay.

More like shadows completely spazing out goind down through the esses at mid afternoon/dusk times.

The games blocky shadows in general.

As for replays, the shadows are literally PS2 quality if not even worse, at times.
 
I'm never one to complain about framerate or glitchiness but Bathurst in the windy section on the far side of the map is downright jumpy. I've ruined a lot of corners in that section because of the framerate judder. Of course it was in my heavily upgraded Ford GT chasing a Huayra... but still.

On that note, the AI is just stuuuupid. I've been spun out by a car sticking to it's line way too many times now. The rubber banding is ridiculous. I don't remember it being this bad in previous GT games. Was GT5 like this too? I own it but I didn't put any real time into it.
 

pushBAK

Member
Question for anyone that has played both Forza 5 and GT6;

Does GT6 use that same vibration scheme that Forza 5 does? In which the controller will vibrate when braking/accelerating excessively. I was really impressed how the controller vibration of Forza 5 worked.
 

SatansReverence

Hipster Princess
I'm never one to complain about framerate or glitchiness but Bathurst in the windy section on the far side of the map is downright jumpy. I've ruined a lot of corners in that section because of the framerate judder. Of course it was in my heavily upgraded Ford GT chasing a Huayra... but still.

On that note, the AI is just stuuuupid. I've been spun out by a car sticking to it's line way too many times now. The rubber banding is ridiculous. I don't remember it being this bad in previous GT games. Was GT5 like this too? I own it but I didn't put any real time into it.

Thus far, I have yet to see a single section where GT6 has held an acceptable frame rate for any period of time. It's constantly juddering. I would be better with a locked 30 than what ever it is at the moment. (Has digital foundry done a release version test on it yet?)

As for A.I, my main problem is the rubber banding. It is truly atrocious. That said, I have found it's intelligence to be much greater than that of GT5. Compareble to Forza 4 in that case but it has the same problem where the A.I sometimes doesn't "see" the player so to speak and just drives into them only realising the players presence when contact is made.

Question for anyone that has played both Forza 5 and GT6;

Does GT6 use that same vibration scheme that Forza 5 does? In which the controller will vibrate when braking/accelerating excessively. I was really impressed how the controller vibration of Forza 5 worked.

The DS3 hasn't got rumble in the triggers like the xbox one controller has. So, no.

The general vibration though, I can't say for sure as my DS3s vibration doesn't work.
 
Weird. I think there's something going on with the game because I have certainly encountered my share of cars that are undriveable so maybe there's some trigger that creates that condition.

There's a thread at GTplanet listing which cars seem to spin with extreme ease.
Yep. I drove the Audi R8 15th Anniversary GT car and at low speeds it spins out very easily when cornering. Even with Medium racing tyres. Only car I've had trouble with so far. Definately something up.
 
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