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Graphical Fidelity I Expect This Gen

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
all of this exposes the incapability of proper texture streaming of their engine. last of us was similar, forspoken is similar on PC. either u have enough vram or game freaks out and loads n64 textures out of pressure. this is just insane. some of these engines have no scalability at all. they should evolve and fix this stuff. it even hurt ps5 at some point with this game. it is clear the engine is running into a vram limitation and acts like how 8 gb cards act on forspoken

look at something like avatar: even on a 6 gb gpu with ray tracing baseline, you don't get n64 textures anywhere. same with alan wake 2. it is possible to make game scales better when vram limited and many engines and developers proved it. the way these stupid engines handle it makes me question what the hell are they doing.

while advancing graphics, it is also possible to make engines more accesible and adaptable for all kinds of hardware. it is really stupid to target fixed vram budgets especially considering the budgets we currently have are more than enough to cycle stuff in and out in a dynamic way
Yeah, they clearly didnt do the work needed to support ever so slightly larger areas. Its like they forgot that rocks have increased geometry requirements than basic metallic walls objects they had littered through the first game. Same goes for foliage. Its a big hit on vram. They were like oh we have extra ram and gpu power on the PS5 so why bother upgrading our codebase?
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
This is a very unscientific comparison between Gotham knights, Suicide Squad and Batman Arkam Knight. AK obviously looks better than the rest, but Gotham knights looking better than Rocksteady's latest next gen only game is bizarre.

Lets hope people give Gotham knights another shot after this because it is not a bad looking game at all. Just fails the atmosphere test against AK. love the volumetric fog system.

 
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This is a very unscientific comparison between Gotham knights, Suicide Squad and Batman Arkam Knight. AK obviously looks better than the rest, but Gotham knights looking better than Rocksteady's latest next gen only game is bizarre.

Lets hope people give Gotham knights another shot after this because it is not a bad looking game at all. Just fails the atmosphere test against AK. love the volumetric fog system.



It doesn't look better and people can be very clever at stuff like this. Conkers Bay Fur Day looked better to me than some 360 Platform games and GT4 on the PS2 looked better than Forza 2 on the 360 to me LOL
 

analog_future

Resident Crybaby
This is a very unscientific comparison between Gotham knights, Suicide Squad and Batman Arkam Knight. AK obviously looks better than the rest, but Gotham knights looking better than Rocksteady's latest next gen only game is bizarre.

Lets hope people give Gotham knights another shot after this because it is not a bad looking game at all. Just fails the atmosphere test against AK. love the volumetric fog system.



Gotham Knight's greatest failing is it's animations, which are wooden, floaty, and don't appear to actually interact with the environment they're in.

Character models are pretty fantastic though. This is an in-game shot I grabbed last night:

53517101454_40097a33ac_o.png
 

rofif

Can’t Git Gud
This is a very unscientific comparison between Gotham knights, Suicide Squad and Batman Arkam Knight. AK obviously looks better than the rest, but Gotham knights looking better than Rocksteady's latest next gen only game is bizarre.

Lets hope people give Gotham knights another shot after this because it is not a bad looking game at all. Just fails the atmosphere test against AK. love the volumetric fog system.


Who the heck would want to play as robin. what the hell
 

Neilg

Member
I think ff7r2 is helping highlight the real difference between games built with native ps5 features like ff16. They didn't drop in any groundbreaking new features on that, but they were able to use the SSD to keep the fidelity high across every scene. Same with forspoken, bit of a mess of a game but the underlying tech (and combat imo) was strong and built for current gen.

It fucking sucks that ff7r2 isn't raising the bar visually. They had to stay in UE because of how they started back in 2014, the project is only viable with the scale of the open world if each title builds on the one before it, and UE5 doesn't live up to promises which meant they couldn't switch. I believe they absolutely intended to switch for the next-gen version but tried UE5 and found it unworkable, so their hands were tied. I think it's a pretty safe bet that the team making it were more pissed off about that than any of us.

Pivoting to the FF16 engine would have needed to happen long before it was ready, but maybe they can do that for part 3. I think we can safely blame epic for this one - the delay needed to move on from UE4 would have amounted to multiple years and made it unviable.
I'm still stoked for more ff7 remake though. some games look great and others you're just glad you get to play, this is getting logged as the latter for me and i'll avoid thinking about how the rocks look while I play.
 
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yamaci17

Member


now I understand console users' pain with this game lol



crazy that 1440p dlss ultra performance looks just a bit blurrier than 1440p fsr quality but has better image stability lol. insane tech

and here's how IGTI (some certain people here admire how spiderman and horizon's upscaling looks good and alan wake 2 should've done better.)
it still is worse than DLSS, by a large margin lol
yZvEvan.png




then people expect me to not bring DLSS into console vs PC value discussions. how can I not? you don't get same image quality even if you have the exact performing hardware. the comparison becomes unfair towards the PC in that case. IGTI is supposedly one of the best built in software based upscaler between sony 1st party games. i'm not saying it looks bad, it is a bit more stable than FSR but it can't hold a candle to DLSS

xess is okay too but you can kind of see it sacrifices image clarity for stability
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Rise Of Ronin new preview somehow manages to look even worse than FF7. Some of the shots look straight up PS3 quality and Im not exaggerating. The drab lighting, the asset quality and overall look of the game reminds me of PS3 era cross gen Ass Creed games.



Remember when Ninja Gaiden was the best looking game on the OG Xbox? WTF has happened to these previously great japanese devs? How did Forspoken devs go from FF15 to Forspoken? How did the FF7 team go from FF7 to Rebirth? WTF is going on in Japan?

Say what you will about western devs but at least they are producing some great looking games. I would take wokeness with pretty graphics than whatever this is.
 
Yup. I was so happy to hear that one dude say "we're fucking Naughty Dog, it has to be best in class".

Neil saying it has to be the best looking, best playing, best controlling and most emotional game in the industry. No one else has that mindset.

Their next game will be a looker, but TLOU 3... good lord. Something truly special is cooking. No one else like them in the industry.

Just finished watching the ND documentary. Some thoughts as they relate to next gen graphics fidelity.

- They truly do care about pushing next gen tech. Through out the behind the scenes footage, pushing graphics and being better than everyone else was basically a given.
- Motion matching, volumetric fog, foliage density, bigger levels were all being referred to as next gen features. they wanted to push the PS4 hardware to its limits.
- They admitted to faking the E3 2018 demo but they thought they would be able to put all of that stuff into the final game. They got some of it in, but not all of it.
- The talent is still clearly there. I see the same faces i saw in the first TLOU doc. It's the same dudes and women leading the charge. I refuse to believe they have let their standards slide. I truly believe that TLOU part 1 was an aberration. And their next game will be a huge next gen leap.

It seems its taking this long because they were working from home until recently, and they seem to have stopped crunch. Also the studio is very poorly run with no managers or producers and that was basically the theme of the doc. I think they will eventually release a game, but whenever it comes out, it will look like nothing we've seen. im sure of it.

Lastly, they read forums. Forums, not twitter or reddit. Forums. Especially neogaf and era. So they are probably reading us bitch about them calling them has beens and hacks lol. It looks like they take this stuff personally so they will definitely try and silence their doubters. And im all for it.

I expect the reveal trailer of the next ND game to have the same visual impact of the GTAVI trailer. Rockstar and ND are simply on a level of their own.
 

CGNoire

Member
I think the shooting was fine, but alan's puzzle solving wasn't ever challenging or intriguing, it was just annoying and slowed the pace down. It's definitely a game that thinks it's really smart and lynchian, but if you have ever seen like twin peaks or lost highway, you can tell that it is just a cheap imitation. It's sad, but I still think the vast majority of games aren't really quite there yet in terms of story. I think it's because movies can show you anything they want, whereas games have to turn it into gameplay. The best thing they did in the game was the projected fmv's in the musical level, even if the music was kinda annoying/cringe/hair-metal. The story just wasn't original or interesting, and it really felt like budget twin peaks/return/x-files. Even a bit of NBC hannibal in there.
It was Sam Lake's Death Stranding Moment. Next time Remedy reign him in just a little.
 
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Except,that isn't the right way to go about things, naysayers act the way they do because they can and aren't skeptical of the things they are against.
Huh what do you mean? I’ve never seen a great person in any field that didn’t let the hate they receive motivate them. You don’t apologize, you don’t whine and retreat - you just get better.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
I think ff7r2 is helping highlight the real difference between games built with native ps5 features like ff16. They didn't drop in any groundbreaking new features on that, but they were able to use the SSD to keep the fidelity high across every scene. Same with forspoken, bit of a mess of a game but the underlying tech (and combat imo) was strong and built for current gen.

It fucking sucks that ff7r2 isn't raising the bar visually. They had to stay in UE because of how they started back in 2014, the project is only viable with the scale of the open world if each title builds on the one before it, and UE5 doesn't live up to promises which meant they couldn't switch. I believe they absolutely intended to switch for the next-gen version but tried UE5 and found it unworkable, so their hands were tied. I think it's a pretty safe bet that the team making it were more pissed off about that than any of us.

Pivoting to the FF16 engine would have needed to happen long before it was ready, but maybe they can do that for part 3. I think we can safely blame epic for this one - the delay needed to move on from UE4 would have amounted to multiple years and made it unviable.
I'm still stoked for more ff7 remake though. some games look great and others you're just glad you get to play, this is getting logged as the latter for me and i'll avoid thinking about how the rocks look while I play.
They didnt HAVE to switch the UE5 to get open worlds. There are plenty of UE4 open world games. Of course, they must have had to change whatever custom UE4 engine they had built up for FF7 to accommodate for it and thats where they failed.

I pointed out how Days Gone, Gears of War 5, Dead Island 2, Atomic Heart, Star Wars, Suicide Squad and Gotahm Knights are all UE4 open world games. Gears and Star Wars went from linear games like FF7 to larger open worlds in their sequels. Im sure they had to do work to get there, but they didnt make any excuses.

The UE4 engine they are using is capable of way better graphics than FF16. We have seen this with Callisto and Star Wars. The asset quality and material quality issues have nothing to do with UE4 but actual incompetence on the part of the dev team.

Despite all the issues I have with star war's PC port, the asset quality is strong and the lighting feels a cut above last gen games. This game doesnt even look as good as early gen last gen games in terms of lighitng, materials, asset quality, trees, rocks, and omg the fucking fire at the end of the demo looked atrocious.
 

Represent.

Represent(ative) of bad opinions


Listen to this clip from the Colin Moriarty podcast. I clipped out an important segment.

If this doesnt confirm our whole LAZY ASS DEV accusations, nothing will.

The framerate warriors have made it so devs are happy literally just upping framerate and calling it "next gen".

With the combination of framerate warriors, and lazy devs, working together... Us getting any TRUE next gen ambition is nothing but a false hope. These guys wont add a new texture or additional foilage, but the're happy bringing the game up to 200fps and ticking a box.

Disgusting.
 
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Fbh

Member
I have a few theories:

1) They treated it as DLC. I have been calling out their decision to not change or update character models, but now it's making more and more sense. This is DLC in all but name only.
2) It's a last gen engine with no upgrades whatsoever to handle the larger areas or foliage etc. And it is simply not able to handle these areas without having to lower resolution from native 4k to 1440p evne in the 30 fps mode.
3) Open world and semi-open world UE4 games like Days Gone, Gears of War 5, Atomic Heart Dead Island 2, Star wars, Gotham Knihgts and even Suicide Squad dont look this bad. This is just poor engineering by C tier devs who either werent given enough time or just didnt care.
4) Lastly, this is an old build and the final game looks much better.

Honestly, i think the combat is really bad too. You cant see shit. Its pulled too far back, and its very hard to attack who you want to attack. The whole game feels unpolished as fuck. Its not just the graphics.

I really hope it's just number 4 and the final release is notoriously better.
Or they can improve it post launch, like Forbidden West which got a major upgrade to performance mode after release. (or at least Jedi Survivor)

Though sadly I think this demo is representative of what we'll get.

Rise Of Ronin new preview somehow manages to look even worse than FF7. Some of the shots look straight up PS3 quality and Im not exaggerating. The drab lighting, the asset quality and overall look of the game reminds me of PS3 era cross gen Ass Creed games.



Remember when Ninja Gaiden was the best looking game on the OG Xbox? WTF has happened to these previously great japanese devs? How did Forspoken devs go from FF15 to Forspoken? How did the FF7 team go from FF7 to Rebirth? WTF is going on in Japan?

Say what you will about western devs but at least they are producing some great looking games. I would take wokeness with pretty graphics than whatever this is.


As someone who doesn't care too much about graphics I just don't get why so many japanese games this gen have disappointing visuals AND poor performance.
Like it should be one or the other, give me awesome next gen graphics and I can accept a hit to performance and/or resolution, or give me dated graphics but give me 60fps with nice IQ.
Instead we get dated graphics with terrible IQ and/or performance.

Team Ninja are some of the worst offenders of this.
Have you played Stranger of Paradise? That one legit looks like a Ps3 game most of the time...and I wouldn't even care if it ran like you'd expect a Ps3 game to run on Ps5 (native 4K60, like Mass Effect Legnedary). But instead the performance mode is like 1080p and the frame rate is all over the place with frequent drops into the 40's.

If Rise of Ronin gives me those visuals at like native 1440p-1800p and locked 60fps I don't mind the dated look.
But with their track record it's probably going to look a gen behind Ghost of Tushima....while somehow running substantially worse.
 
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analog_future

Resident Crybaby
This is a very unscientific comparison between Gotham knights, Suicide Squad and Batman Arkam Knight. AK obviously looks better than the rest, but Gotham knights looking better than Rocksteady's latest next gen only game is bizarre.

Lets hope people give Gotham knights another shot after this because it is not a bad looking game at all. Just fails the atmosphere test against AK. love the volumetric fog system.



I also just want to state that while Arkham Knight has held up incredibly well for a 9 year old game, it does not look as good as either Gotham Knights or Suicide Squad. Some specific aspects? Sure. Art direction? Almost certainly. But as an overall package it's clearly a 9 year old UE3 game and that will always have it's limitations.

Here's some shots I grabbed earlier, maxed out @ 6k resolution on my PC:

53517749369_3aa1cb2cdf_o.png


53516544307_5291196e43_o.png


53517749309_913bfc87dd_o.png
 
I really hope it's just number 4 and the final release is notoriously better.
Or they can improve it post launch, like Forbidden West which got a major upgrade to performance mode after release. (or at least Jedi Survivor)

Though sadly I think this demo is representative of what we'll get.



As someone who doesn't care too much about graphics I just don't get why so many japanese games this gen have disappointing visuals AND poor performance.
Like it should be one or the other, give me awesome next gen graphics and I can accept a hit to performance and/or resolution, or give me dated graphics but give me 60fps with nice IQ.
Instead we get dated graphics with terrible IQ and/or performance.

Team Ninja are some of the worst offenders of this.
Have you played Stranger of Paradise? That one legit looks like a Ps3 game most of the time...and I wouldn't even care if it ran like you'd expect a Ps3 game to run on Ps5 (native 4K60, like Mass Effect Legnedary). But instead the performance mode is like 1080p and the frame rate is all over the place with frequent drops into the 40's.

If Rise of Ronin gives me those visuals at like native 1440p-1800p and locked 60fps I don't mind the dated look.
But with their track record it's probably going to look a gen behind Ghost of Tushima....while somehow running substantially worse.

It's so clear to me that Rise of the Ronin is going to suck graphically. Just watch the recent ganeplay trailers. Wayyyy behind GoT. That's really disappointing because RoR is a damn Ps5 only game!

I agree with a lot of what you said regarding Japanese devs. They are all (except for Kojima) a gen behind the west in tech ...is that an acceptable compromise though considering how much better Japanese games are than western these days? I dunno honestly. I've been playing almost exclusively Japanese made games lately.

I don't think FF7 R is the disaster it's being made out to be here. Are you guys playing performance mode? If so than yeah that makes sense but Fidelity isn't that bad. Whats disappointing is the lack of improvement over the previous game, FF7 remake, given that Rebirth is PS5 only.

I recently been playing Infinite Wealth and once again no improvement over previous Yakuzas and another disappointment is the upcoming Dragons Dogma 2 sounds like it's 30 fps only on console which is devastating news as I was so psyched to finally be able to play a DD at 60 fps on console ..you telling me those graphics require 30 fps?
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
I also just want to state that while Arkham Knight has held up incredibly well for a 9 year old game, it does not look as good as either Gotham Knights or Suicide Squad. Some specific aspects? Sure. Art direction? Almost certainly. But as an overall package it's clearly a 9 year old UE3 game and that will always have it's limitations.

Here's some shots I grabbed earlier, maxed out @ 6k resolution on my PC:

53517749369_3aa1cb2cdf_o.png


53516544307_5291196e43_o.png


53517749309_913bfc87dd_o.png
oh you dont have to tell me. i brought this up back when i was playing gotham knights on pc. the material quality and the volumetric lighting is way better. but AK just looks better thanks to the rain, art direction and cinematography.
 

yamaci17

Member
oh you dont have to tell me. i brought this up back when i was playing gotham knights on pc. the material quality and the volumetric lighting is way better. but AK just looks better thanks to the rain, art direction and cinematography.
arkham knight also does not run with TAA. it has shader aliasing as a result here and there and image quality is not perfect, but it is practically pixel sharp, even on a base PS4
whereas of course gotham knights is full on TAA. arkham knight at 1080p will appear sharper than gotham knights at 4K and this is not even a joke

DLDSR works wonders in arkham knight on PC by the way. practically disable the in game post processing aa (smaa or some shit), and push DLDSR. modern GPUs have grunt for it. actually game is still quite demanding. I barely got 4k 90 fps on my 3070 which is not what I expected (i expected at least a 120 lock lol)
 
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analog_future

Resident Crybaby
oh you dont have to tell me. i brought this up back when i was playing gotham knights on pc. the material quality and the volumetric lighting is way better. but AK just looks better thanks to the rain, art direction and cinematography.

I will also say though that it's ridiculous that a 9 year old game built on a 2 generation old engine puts up a fight against a modern 2024 AAA game from the same studio.
 

Lethal01

Member
Yeah, they clearly didnt do the work needed to support ever so slightly larger areas.

Nah, Compared to Rebirth the scale of Remake is al literal speck of composed of 90% 6 meter wide hallways
Rebirth is atleast 30x the size by the looks with much less restricted exploaration even in the extremely linear demo, much less the actual open world areas

Its lacking graphically but the size is undeniably a huge upgrade
EN_07_ff7rebirth_SS_0207_World.jpg
EN_01_ff7rebirth_SS_0207_World.jpg
EN_06_ff7rebirth_SS_0207_World.jpg
 
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SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
arkham knight also does not run with TAA. it has shader aliasing as a result here and there and image quality is not perfect, but it is practically pixel sharp, even on a base PS4
whereas of course gotham knights is full on TAA. arkham knight at 1080p will appear sharper than gotham knights at 4K and this is not even a joke

DLDSR works wonders in arkham knight on PC by the way. practically disable the in game post processing aa (smaa or some shit), and push DLDSR. modern GPUs have grunt for it. actually game is still quite demanding. I barely got 4k 90 fps on my 3070 which is not what I expected (i expected at least a 120 lock lol)
Game has a cap at 90 fps. Can’t push it higher than that. I just enabled all the nvidia physics and smoke effects because i had room left over.

And Batman ak is the worst looking game on base ps4s running on 4k TVs thanks to its lack of a good AA solution. It looks absolutely atrocious. Its probably fine on a 1080p screen.
 

yamaci17

Member
Game has a cap at 90 fps. Can’t push it higher than that. I just enabled all the nvidia physics and smoke effects because i had room left over.

And Batman ak is the worst looking game on base ps4s running on 4k TVs thanks to its lack of a good AA solution. It looks absolutely atrocious. Its probably fine on a 1080p screen.
problem with physics is that they cause CPU bound slowdowns. maybe zen 3 can keep up at 90 fps but zen 2 was definitely dropping below 60 with heavy smoke effects. there was this place with lots of gas canisters and it murdered my frames to 50s. VRR saved the day and i didnt bother turning off the option
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Nah, Compared to Rebirth the scale of Remake is al literal speck of composed of 90% 6 meter wide hallways
Rebirth is atleast 30x the size by the looks with much less restricted exploaration even in the extremely linear demo, much less the actual open world areas

Its lacking graphically but the size is undeniably a huge upgrade
EN_07_ff7rebirth_SS_0207_World.jpg
EN_01_ff7rebirth_SS_0207_World.jpg
EN_06_ff7rebirth_SS_0207_World.jpg
I didn’t get my point across clearly. I meant to say that while the game now supports larger environments they weren’t able to keep the same asset quality as before. Most games in the ps3 to ps4 transition went open world while also upgrading their graphics fidelity. It seems SE just kinda downgraded the graphics to enable the larger areas despite having 5x more tflops.
 

shamoomoo

Member
Huh what do you mean? I’ve never seen a great person in any field that didn’t let the hate they receive motivate them. You don’t apologize, you don’t whine and retreat - you just get better.
No one should be motivated by people whose sole purpose is to be anti-you, objective criticisms or self-improvement should be the means of striving for greatness.
 

Lethal01

Member
I didn’t get my point across clearly. I meant to say that while the game now supports larger environments they weren’t able to keep the same asset quality as before. Most games in the ps3 to ps4 transition went open world while also upgrading their graphics fidelity. It seems SE just kinda downgraded the graphics to enable the larger areas despite having 5x more tflops.

Fair Enough, But Id say that the graphics are better than the original PS4 version and are mostly inline with the PS5 graphics.

The lighting is clearly the worst part, followed my the environmental assets, The character models are perfect but the in game lighting fucks em

image.png
image.png


I cant wait for the PC version

They perfected the combat system and that would already make up for far worse graphics for me.
The boosted speed is nice too
 
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now I understand console users' pain with this game lol



crazy that 1440p dlss ultra performance looks just a bit blurrier than 1440p fsr quality but has better image stability lol. insane tech

and here's how IGTI (some certain people here admire how spiderman and horizon's upscaling looks good and alan wake 2 should've done better.)
it still is worse than DLSS, by a large margin lol
yZvEvan.png




then people expect me to not bring DLSS into console vs PC value discussions. how can I not? you don't get same image quality even if you have the exact performing hardware. the comparison becomes unfair towards the PC in that case. IGTI is supposedly one of the best built in software based upscaler between sony 1st party games. i'm not saying it looks bad, it is a bit more stable than FSR but it can't hold a candle to DLSS

xess is okay too but you can kind of see it sacrifices image clarity for stability


You're right 100% only thing I'll say is for some reason Spiderman 2's image quality is worse than Miles Morales/SM Remastered. Don't know why but I was thinking the native res is lower than reported ...distant objects are a little aliased and has easily visible artifacts on building exteriors.

Alan Wake 2 is an abomination and ill be so pissed if when PS5 Pro comes out Remedy doesn't put out another patch aimed at increasing resolution or something. Whatever they need to do to get rid of that shimmery crap. It looks so bad, so often. I actually think it's a bit of a scandal to release a game like this but nobody in the games media ever calls them out. They do console dirty a lot, such as Control Ultimate never getting HDR patch whereas the PC does.

Another game I'm bummed about recently is Infinite Wealth on ps5. IQ is worse than Like a Dragon and Gaiden. How does that happen when the underlining graphics are so similar? Anyone else notice the aliasing and blurriness of Infinite Wealth? It's not nearly as bad as AW2 but we should be seeing improved graphics from one entry to the next. Not worse!
 
This is a very unscientific comparison between Gotham knights, Suicide Squad and Batman Arkam Knight. AK obviously looks better than the rest, but Gotham knights looking better than Rocksteady's latest next gen only game is bizarre.

Lets hope people give Gotham knights another shot after this because it is not a bad looking game at all. Just fails the atmosphere test against AK. love the volumetric fog system.



I always thought Gotham Knights looked good. Then I bought and played the game and the game itself bores me silly every time I try to get into it. I wanted to like it but the design and structure, the empty city, and combat that I found unsatisfying causes me to give up before I can even get into the story

Game kinda sucks
 

Audiophile

Member
Usually find these rando YouTube demos of UE a bit bland (not to mention not reflective of real-world workloads in games) but the foliage and lighting on this supposedly real-time UE5.2 clip is really impressive (especially when the camera is pointing up). If it weren't for some issues with the water drops/puddles I might very well confuse it for real life:




And a UE5.3 clip. The sheer scale, the density and the temporal stability of the foliage on those tree-covered cliffs is really striking.



..I see something like this and imagine a Death Stranding 3 on a PS6 Pro where you roll up on your boat-vehicle, going under the cover of the foliage, then have to proceed carefully, struggling up the side of the cliff with ropes, launching grapples around the many big tree branches growing out at ~45 degree angle -- still under shadow of the leaves/canopy -- and hooking into the cracks with camming devices. 🥴
 
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SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
I always thought Gotham Knights looked good. Then I bought and played the game and the game itself bores me silly every time I try to get into it. I wanted to like it but the design and structure, the empty city, and combat that I found unsatisfying causes me to give up before I can even get into the story

Game kinda sucks
The combat is actually the highlight of the game. I mostly played as red hood and his skill tree goes places. then i switched to batgirl after beating the game and she had her own completely different playstyle that was equally fun.

The problem is that they hold off A LOT of the cool stuff until around the 10 hour mark. if the game was a traditional 10-15 hour game like spiderman it wouldve been received much better, but because they dont give you the good stuff until later in the game, it feels vapid and hollow at the start when its anything but.
 


Listen to this clip from the Colin Moriarty podcast. I clipped out an important segment.

If this doesnt confirm our whole LAZY ASS DEV accusations, nothing will.

The framerate warriors have made it so devs are happy literally just upping framerate and calling it "next gen".

With the combination of framerate warriors, and lazy devs, working together... Us getting any TRUE next gen ambition is nothing but a false hope. These guys wont add a new texture or additional foilage, but the're happy bringing the game up to 200fps and ticking a box.

Disgusting.


Unless Sony massively upgrades the CPU in the PS5 Pro we won't see huge boosts to framerates. Barring some form of frame generation, of course.
 

SimTourist

Member
Rise Of Ronin new preview somehow manages to look even worse than FF7. Some of the shots look straight up PS3 quality and Im not exaggerating. The drab lighting, the asset quality and overall look of the game reminds me of PS3 era cross gen Ass Creed games.



Remember when Ninja Gaiden was the best looking game on the OG Xbox? WTF has happened to these previously great japanese devs? How did Forspoken devs go from FF15 to Forspoken? How did the FF7 team go from FF7 to Rebirth? WTF is going on in Japan?

Say what you will about western devs but at least they are producing some great looking games. I would take wokeness with pretty graphics than whatever this is.

Repeat after me, graphics don't sell games anymore. It's as simple as that, devs and publishers realized that spending more time on graphics will not increase sales. The best selling games on the market look just okay, GTA5 is made for 2005 hardware specs, why bother?
 

Whitecrow

Banned
Repeat after me, graphics don't sell games anymore. It's as simple as that, devs and publishers realized that spending more time on graphics will not increase sales. The best selling games on the market look just okay, GTA5 is made for 2005 hardware specs, why bother?
Look to me that you're only trying to convince yourself.

Marketing goes a long way, and guess what makes better marketing.
 

winjer

Gold Member
Repeat after me, graphics don't sell games anymore. It's as simple as that, devs and publishers realized that spending more time on graphics will not increase sales. The best selling games on the market look just okay, GTA5 is made for 2005 hardware specs, why bother?

Of course it sells.
But the biggest problem with Team Ninja's games isn't even the graphics. It's the lack of optimization.
The result is that their games look and run terrible.
 

Alex11

Member
Repeat after me, graphics don't sell games anymore. It's as simple as that, devs and publishers realized that spending more time on graphics will not increase sales. The best selling games on the market look just okay, GTA5 is made for 2005 hardware specs, why bother?
I mean, in a way you are right if we're to be guided by this Wiki page of the best selling games, assuming it's true:


But having said that, there are a few that sell by having great to superb graphics and not necessarily by being a tech powerhouse, but by having something unique, great art direction etc.
 

SimTourist

Member
Look to me that you're only trying to convince yourself.

Marketing goes a long way, and guess what makes better marketing.
The list of failed graphical showcases with plenty of marketing is pretty long. On the other hand you have Palworld made with pocketchange by people launching the UE4 editor for the first time in their life making bank. The graphics have simply reached the point of good enough for most people, going further is hitting diminishing returns on both the effort required to produce and the financial returns.
I just feel that people waiting for those graphical showcases to come will be waiting a while.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Repeat after me, graphics don't sell games anymore. It's as simple as that, devs and publishers realized that spending more time on graphics will not increase sales. The best selling games on the market look just okay, GTA5 is made for 2005 hardware specs, why bother?
And yet just today
CjpsKot.jpg


devs have and will always care about graphics. It’s it’s some devs who seem to have lost that drive.
 

SimTourist

Member
And yet just today
CjpsKot.jpg


devs have and will always care about graphics. It’s it’s some devs who seem to have lost that drive.
It looks a little better than the first one, now compare to the progress from MGS 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 to 5. I agree that Kojima and his team are oldschool in that sense and still have ambition to push the medium, but most others have given up entirely. A few outliers only highlight the situation. From the top of my head I can only name a couple studios that are pushing graphics technology in any way - Rockstar, CDPR, 4A games, Epic's engine team, Kojima. Can't think of much else. And again something crude and cheap like Palworld sold more in two weeks than any game from Kojima, the shareholders will look at the numbers and make the obvious choice next time.
 
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SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
The list of failed graphical showcases with plenty of marketing is pretty long. On the other hand you have Palworld made with pocketchange by people launching the UE4 editor for the first time in their life making bank. The graphics have simply reached the point of good enough for most people, going further is hitting diminishing returns on both the effort required to produce and the financial returns.
I just feel that people waiting for those graphical showcases to come will be waiting a while.
Pokemon has been selling millions before ue4 was a thing. Minimum effort Games like just dance and palworld sell because their audience doesn’t care.

But people who spend $500 every 7 years definitely want to see graphics improve.

Honestly, if you and I were having this conversation last year before AW2, Starfield and Avatar dropped, and GTA6 and DS2 were revealed, id be on your side. But I was wrong about the GTA6 leaks being an indicator the final graphics fidelity, and devs like Massive really do care about being the best of the best. When they won best graphics at DF, the director retweeted and said he can now retire because thats all hes ever wanted. The leaked slides at Insomniac show they want Wolverine to be the best looking game out there, on par with HB2. Kojima literally just said that he wants you to feel like you are playing a movie when you play his next gen game PHYSINT. He wouldve been making games for PS4 or he wouldve made his next game on pS5 if he didnt care. Nah, hes thinking next gen already because his goal is photorealism.

 

SimTourist

Member
Pokemon has been selling millions before ue4 was a thing. Minimum effort Games like just dance and palworld sell because their audience doesn’t care.

But people who spend $500 every 7 years definitely want to see graphics improve.

Honestly, if you and I were having this conversation last year before AW2, Starfield and Avatar dropped, and GTA6 and DS2 were revealed, id be on your side. But I was wrong about the GTA6 leaks being an indicator the final graphics fidelity, and devs like Massive really do care about being the best of the best. When they won best graphics at DF, the director retweeted and said he can now retire because thats all hes ever wanted. The leaked slides at Insomniac show they want Wolverine to be the best looking game out there, on par with HB2. Kojima literally just said that he wants you to feel like you are playing a movie when you play his next gen game PHYSINT. He wouldve been making games for PS4 or he wouldve made his next game on pS5 if he didnt care. Nah, hes thinking next gen already because his goal is photorealism.


The devs down in the trenches might want it, but ultimately it's the bean counters that call the shots. That's the reality of it. I'm not trying to be negative, but you can see for yourself that the number of the graphical showcases is going down. Back in the PS2/3 days the bar was being raised many times every year. Now you're waiting for a handful of games to make use of the hardware in your box.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
The devs down in the trenches might want it, but ultimately it's the bean counters that call the shots. That's the reality of it. I'm not trying to be negative, but you can see for yourself that the number of the graphical showcases is going down. Back in the PS2/3 days the bar was being raised many times every year. Now you're waiting for a handful of games to make use of the hardware in your box.
It looks a little better than the first one, now compare to the progress from MGS 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 to 5. I agree that Kojima and his team are oldschool in that sense and still have ambition to push the medium, but most others have given up entirely. A few outliers only highlight the situation. From the top of my head I can only name a couple studios that are pushing graphics technology in any way - Rockstar, CDPR, 4A games, Epic's engine team, Kojima. Can't think of much else. And again something crude and cheap like Palworld sold more in two weeks than any game from Kojima, the shareholders will look at the numbers and make the obvious choice next time.
This i can agree with. The number of devs who want to raise the bar has definitely decreased. Thats why I brought up Capcom, TeamNinja and Square Enix's FF7 team because they used to be great. I mean Deep Down was actually a real game from Capcom and 11 years later Dragon's Dogma looks like a PS3 game in comparison.

However, while Rocksteady might have dropped the ball, Bethesda did improve their graphics pipeline to not just hit last gen standard but set a new bar in asset quality with massive improvements to their lighting engine. Massive went from downgrading everything to creating two of the best looking games this gen back to back. Ubisoft said Star Wars Outlaws is releasing this year. And a next gen Ass Creed will soon follow. I could argue no one is more corporate than Ubisoft but these two games will set a new bar in graphics rendering this year. Especially in the absence of Sony first party.

My point is that while some have taken a step back, others have continued to push boundries. While the FF7 team might be phoning in their game, another team at Square Enix did try to do some insane things with the setpieces and they were a shitty MMO developer who set out to do those big GOW battles from the start.

i know the year is starting off with some of the worst looking games we've seen in years. Suicide Squad, FF7, Dragons Dogma and Rise of Ronin, but I suspect things will turn around when hellblade 2 launches in May followed soon by E3 showcases from ND, ID software, CD project, Sucker Punch, and even Bioware (last year's trailer featured some realtime graphics that looked really good, not photorealistic but very atmospheric). And then Ubisoft will end the year with a bang with Star wars and AC.
 

RaduN

Member
The devs down in the trenches might want it, but ultimately it's the bean counters that call the shots. That's the reality of it. I'm not trying to be negative, but you can see for yourself that the number of the graphical showcases is going down. Back in the PS2/3 days the bar was being raised many times every year. Now you're waiting for a handful of games to make use of the hardware in your box.

MGS2 came out in 01, and in terms of special effects, framerate, fillrate, etc was not surpassed for the entire PS2 gen.
DMC4, Re5, Killzone2 and MGS4 came out in 08(?) and they had the most amazing character models and realtime cutscenes (unlike games like Tlou, Uncharted or Yakuza) and did all sorts of graphical wizardies that remained top tier for all Ps3s lifetime.

The bar was not raised many times per year, nope. It was just the select few that pushed forward from the get go.
 

SimTourist

Member
This i can agree with. The number of devs who want to raise the bar has definitely decreased. Thats why I brought up Capcom, TeamNinja and Square Enix's FF7 team because they used to be great. I mean Deep Down was actually a real game from Capcom and 11 years later Dragon's Dogma looks like a PS3 game in comparison.

However, while Rocksteady might have dropped the ball, Bethesda did improve their graphics pipeline to not just hit last gen standard but set a new bar in asset quality with massive improvements to their lighting engine. Massive went from downgrading everything to creating two of the best looking games this gen back to back. Ubisoft said Star Wars Outlaws is releasing this year. And a next gen Ass Creed will soon follow. I could argue no one is more corporate than Ubisoft but these two games will set a new bar in graphics rendering this year. Especially in the absence of Sony first party.

My point is that while some have taken a step back, others have continued to push boundries. While the FF7 team might be phoning in their game, another team at Square Enix did try to do some insane things with the setpieces and they were a shitty MMO developer who set out to do those big GOW battles from the start.

i know the year is starting off with some of the worst looking games we've seen in years. Suicide Squad, FF7, Dragons Dogma and Rise of Ronin, but I suspect things will turn around when hellblade 2 launches in May followed soon by E3 showcases from ND, ID software, CD project, Sucker Punch, and even Bioware (last year's trailer featured some realtime graphics that looked really good, not photorealistic but very atmospheric). And then Ubisoft will end the year with a bang with Star wars and AC.
I wish I had your optimism, my man.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
MGS2 came out in 01, and in terms of special effects, framerate, fillrate, etc was not surpassed for the entire PS2 gen.
DMC4, Re5, Killzone2 and MGS4 came out in 08(?) and they had the most amazing character models and realtime cutscenes (unlike games like Tlou, Uncharted or Yakuza) and did all sorts of graphical wizardies that remained top tier for all Ps3s lifetime.

The bar was not raised many times per year, nope. It was just the select few that pushed forward from the get go.
RE5 and KZ2 came out in early 2009. Feb and march. But the rest i agree.

Kojima ended up dropping 60 fps to realize his vision for a bigger foliage rich Snake Eater. Ueda did the same with SoTC. Ico looked way better to me in comparison. TLOU featured way bigger areas than the uncharted games, and textures and overall fidelity really suffered. But ultimately it allowed devs to realize their vision for a much grander game in terms of scope.

it's always a balancing act. Of course, what ND did with TLOU2 coming off of Uncharted 4, and GG did with Horizon FW compared to HZD is nothing short of extraordinary.

That said, i truly believe that games released in 2025-2027 will look way better than games released in 2020-2022 simply because we had so many cross gen games release during that period.
 

SimTourist

Member
MGS2 came out in 01, and in terms of special effects, framerate, fillrate, etc was not surpassed for the entire PS2 gen.
DMC4, Re5, Killzone2 and MGS4 came out in 08(?) and they had the most amazing character models and realtime cutscenes (unlike games like Tlou, Uncharted or Yakuza) and did all sorts of graphical wizardies that remained top tier for all Ps3s lifetime.

The bar was not raised many times per year, nope. It was just the select few that pushed forward from the get go.
It's kinda tough to judge looking back, but there was no shortage of new rendering tricks being invented all the time and implemented every year pushing the bar, even if it was in different directions because devs didn't communicate that much back then and there was no established middleware or a commonly used licensed engine. DMC4, RE5 and MGS4 looked good, but were quickly surpassed simply because SSAO started to appear just a year later and enhanced the image substancially, Uncharted 2 was a major step forward beginning to implement approximated subsurface scattering making character look better, Killzone 2 pushed deferred rendering allowing many light in a scene, God of War 3 appeared in 2010 pushing crazy setpieces, Heavy Rain pushed character models that some games don't even approach today, etc. There was always some new trick invented that made a visible impact and devs were coming up with new techniques all the time.
 

benzy

Member
Ronin looks better than VII Rebirth to me lol, plus seems it has dynamic lighting / time of day and weather, so some combinations aren't going to look as visually appealing as others. Rebirth lighting is all pre-baked which has almost zero run-time cost, which makes it all the more baffling to see low poly assets on top of low res textures, bad lighting bakes, and stiff vegetation. Tecmo & Team Ninja looked to have stopped chasing the highest-end graphics when they saw the rising cost of HD era, it's basically just SE and Capcom in Japan competing with the West. Maybe Cygames too when they finish Project Awakening.

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