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Graphical Fidelity I Expect This Gen

H

Hunnybun

Banned
SlimySnake said:
I love the game’s visuals but yes it can be an assault on the senses. They need to simplify the graphics a bit. It’s too cluttered and too bright.

Now those same attributes make it pop and look stunning but i can definitely understand the complaints. Cyberpunk is similar. It’s too much detail.

Rdr2 is a great example of simplicity in art design without sacrificing detail.
Click to expand...

This is the thing. The detail and vividness is its greatest strength but also a weakness. It's hard to actually parse the environment sometimes - I don't know how many times I've been looking desperately for that campfire that the map tells me is like 20m in front of me but is just lost against the background.

From what I can tell the DLC isn't as bad for this because there seems to be more depth to the image, either from what looks like a wider FOV or just better draw distance.
 
M

Musilla

Member
ezgif-3-31e872790d.gif
 
M1987

M1987

Member
Hunnybun said:
I'll check it out today, not heard that before. Do we know whether the base game has definitely been improved, or is it still just perceptual? Like, are the new clouds there, at least?
Click to expand...
I don't know,I just seen comments about the game looking better with the new patch
 
CamHostage

CamHostage

Member
ResetEraVetVIP said:
Click to expand...

Eh, I would not share a clip with the engine version number one above the one that's actually out.

(There are UE 5.2Beta versions on Git that can be compiled and eventually that will be 5.3, usually they're legitimately referring to that, but eh if the content is actually about the next milestone work?)

IMO, those content producers are not trying to show you anything of the state of the art as it is approaching useabiliy & availability; they're just mocking up some cool-looking shit they can hack out at whatever level of practicality (or using some basic existent features in ways that put them in the best light with maybe some beta feature turned on) and putting click-tasty headlines on: "this UE5 video is 1 better than the rest, trust me and click now."

It's a nicely lit MetaHuman, in any case.
 
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Kataploom

Kataploom

Gold Member
Polygonal_Sprite said:
I’ve played almost everything this gen so far as I’m lucky enough to own PS5 and Series X and started Plague Tale 2 last week. Just finished it and I have to say this has been the game for me that overall demonstrates “this just can’t be done on last gen”. The sheer fidelity of it in terms of character models, textures, materials and lighting (especially past the opening section that DF showed in their video so much) is just astounding at times especially coming from a studio outside of the usual graphical powerhouses with their almost unlimited budgets and development timeframes.

Yes it’s 30fps on console (it dropped too often from 40fps causing judder so I just played it at 30fps) but that shouldn’t discount the game because it really is something special and one of the only current gen only games with a more realistic art style to compare to last generations best. Plague Tale 2 is now the standard for me visually much like The Order was for a long time last gen after it released.

Outside of visuals the game was fantastic and the overall story, dialogue, voice acting and cut scenes are up there with the best imo. A real shame the game doesn’t get more attention or love online despite being set in a unique time and being something other than a shooter.
Click to expand...
The lighting on Requiem is just in another level compared to anything Horizon, it's so natural, so charming to look at... I've been thinking on what makes Horizon games look bad to me and maybe it's the lighting? Something on the lighting doesn't feel fully realistic, like everything is made of plastic or have some plastic feel
 
Johnny Concrete

Johnny Concrete

Member
SlimySnake said:
I love how one dev is able to achieve next gen graphics while entire 500 person studios are still phoning in last gen graphics.

This makes even HFW look last gen.

Click to expand...

It’s impressive how much detail there is, but all of his rendering budget is going into these graphics. There’s no gameplay and apart from the waterfall, river and some particle emitters for the falling leaves nothing is animated.

We also don’t know how much time and effort went into creating this relatively small area.

So apples and oranges I’m afraid.
 
SlimySnake

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Johnny Concrete said:
It’s impressive how much detail there is, but all of his rendering budget is going into these graphics. There’s no gameplay and apart from the waterfall, river and some particle emitters for the falling leaves nothing is animated.

We also don’t know how much time and effort went into creating this relatively small area.

So apples and oranges I’m afraid.
Click to expand...
Where else would the rendering budget go if not for graphics?

The cpu handles the gameplay elements. This is no different from vast stretches of nothingness in games like horizon and rdr2.
 
FIREKNIGHT2029

FIREKNIGHT2029

Member
SlimySnake said:
I love how one dev is able to achieve next gen graphics while entire 500 person studios are still phoning in last gen graphics.

This makes even HFW look last gen.

Click to expand...

Still a tech demo and not an actual game.

Nothing is going into AI, physics or NPCs on the map. It's also rendering one small area and not an entire open world like Horizon or CP2077 are doing.

I'll be more impressed when we can see this kind of fidelity in an actual game and not a limited tech demo.


What makes a game like HFW or CP2077 impressive for what they are doing is the entire open world maps that are rendered in high detail as well as the NPCs, characters and physics that all have to be calculated while doing all that rendering in real-time.
 
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A

alloush

Member
SlimySnake said:
I love how one dev is able to achieve next gen graphics while entire 500 person studios are still phoning in last gen graphics.

This makes even HFW look last gen.

Click to expand...

Genuine question: when are we gonna get this level of graphical fidelity? like, when are we gonna fire up a game and then be met with such gorgeous, realistic graphics? serious question.
 
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E

Edder1

Gold Member
SlimySnake said:
I love how one dev is able to achieve next gen graphics while entire 500 person studios are still phoning in last gen graphics.

This makes even HFW look last gen.

Click to expand...

You're not getting that unless 30fps is back on consoles. There's no way consoles doing that level of fidelity at 60fps this gen. No performance mode, no nothing, just pushing visuals to the max like the Matrix demo.
 
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SlimySnake

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Edder1 said:
You're not getting that unless 30fps is back on consoles. There's no way consoles doing that level of fidelity at 60fps this gen. No performance mode, no nothing, just pushing visuals to the max like the Matrix demo.
Click to expand...
I never said i wanted these visuals at 60 fps on consoles. Thats why i bought a PC that was 2x more powerful than the PS5. To play high fidelity console games at 60 fps.
 
Johnny Concrete

Johnny Concrete

Member
SlimySnake said:
Where else would the rendering budget go if not for graphics?

The cpu handles the gameplay elements. This is no different from vast stretches of nothingness in games like horizon and rdr2.
Click to expand...
I meant processing power.

It’s not as evenly divided as GPU = graphics and CPU = all gameplay.
CPU still has to give the GPU commands.
If you have ever worked with game engines you’d know that at some point the setpass calls will eat your budget to do scripting.

Elaborate AI, physics, sound, animations, particles and even UI can all nibble at your avg FPS.

You simply can’t compare a game with just controlling a camera in an environment.
 
mckmas8808

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
rofif said:
I find it ironic to see everyone praising this.
-motion blur
-ca
-grain/compression shader
-distotion
-dof

Things that every pc gamer turns off the moment they launch any game.
Without these, this would look like another normal game. Except the cool camera
Click to expand...

Good thing many of us are PC gamers then. lol
 
TronNerd82

TronNerd82

Member
I may be in the minority on this thread, but frankly, graphics don't make or break a game for me. Think about it. A lot of hardcore gamers love Minecraft, but its graphics are nowhere close to something like the Matrix Awakens. Gameplay is more important than visuals. Consider the newer CoD games for example. They look absolutely amazing, but their only redeeming quality (imo) is the multiplayer, which is also starting to go to shit. Compare that to Mario Kart Wii. MK Double Dash can pull off better graphics than it, despite coming out 5 years earlier, yet MK Wii has some of the best gameplay in any racing game I've played, and is simply FUN. I've ranted long enough tho.
 
AeonGaidenRaiden

AeonGaidenRaiden

Member
Tech demos are just tech demos, they dont represent even what something might be possible in one generation of consoles. I remember all the insane Voodoo GFX tech demos as a kid, nobody could make a full game using all that tech especially nowadays an open world game at that scale with those visuals.
 
N

Neilg

Member
alloush said:
Genuine question: when are we gonna get this level of graphical fidelity? like, when are we gonna fire up a game and then be met with such gorgeous, realistic graphics? serious question.
Click to expand...

18 months+

There are/will be games in development now that look that good. But a game is more than just a single environment.

Some are coming much sooner but they're on the knife edge of semantics where someone will go 'aha but look at this blade of grass it doesn't look as good as that demo'
I would argue there are already games out that look that good but I can't be fucked getting into it with people that already don't agree.
 
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A

alloush

Member
Neilg said:
18 months+

There are/will be games in development now that look that good. But a game is more than just a single environment.

Some are coming much sooner but they're on the knife edge of semantics where someone will go 'aha but look at this blade of grass it doesn't look as good as that demo'
I would argue there are already games out that look that good but I can't be fucked getting into it with people that already don't agree.
Click to expand...
You really think we will get games that look this good in 18 months? Man I hope you're right but I think that’s too ambitious, did you check the video out? The graphics are nothing we have seen in any game ever.
 
SlimySnake

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
alloush said:
You really think we will get games that look this good in 18 months? Man I hope you're right but I think that’s too ambitious, did you check the video out? The graphics are nothing we have seen in any game ever.
Click to expand...
Avatar should be out by then and should look fairly close to that.

Fable might get a reveal in the next 18 months and if Horizon 5 is any indication, Fable should look very close to this.

I think this Sony showcase in May or June (or whenever Sony decides we're worthy of their next gen showcase) should feature several games that look like this. Not sure if they will all be out in 18 months since these games typically come out 2 years after reveal, but at least we will have games that we can look forward to.
 
A

alloush

Member
SlimySnake said:
Avatar should be out by then and should look fairly close to that.

Fable might get a reveal in the next 18 months and if Horizon 5 is any indication, Fable should look very close to this.

I think this Sony showcase in May or June (or whenever Sony decides we're worthy of their next gen showcase) should feature several games that look like this. Not sure if they will all be out in 18 months since these games typically come out 2 years after reveal, but at least we will have games that we can look forward to.
Click to expand...
Avatar is a game I am keeping a very close eye out on. The only thing that is kind of tempering my expectations regarding that game is that it's made by Ubisoft. Also it feels like forever since Sony held a proper showcase, recently they all have been meh.

If in the next couple years we get games looking like that video you shared then we are in for a treat but excuse me if I have my doubts lol.
 
SlimySnake

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
alloush said:
Avatar is a game I am keeping a very close eye out on. The only thing that is kind of tempering my expectations regarding that game is that it's made by Ubisoft. Also it feels like forever since Sony held a proper showcase, recently they all have been meh.

If in the next couple years we get games looking like that video you shared then we are in for a treat but excuse me if I have my doubts lol.
Click to expand...
Well, the motto of this thread is doubt. After 3 years of disappointments, there is nothing left but doubt.

giphy.gif


meryl-streep-doubt.gif
 
N

Neilg

Member
alloush said:
You really think we will get games that look this good in 18 months? Man I hope you're right but I think that’s too ambitious, did you check the video out? The graphics are nothing we have seen in any game ever.
Click to expand...

We've seen assets that quality, we've seen lighting that quality, just not in the same game at the same time. Fortnite has all the technical features used running on consoles already.
i'm sure in 18 months there will be assets that miss the mark for people to pore over. But I also believe within 6 months we'll see some games that are 12 months away from release that look very, very good.

One of the challenges with scaling that level of environment detail up is that it doesn't compare to the size of a normal game. One guy, very talented, working on a little village for 8 months can have that location use up 30gb of disk space or more and totally max out available GPU memory.
I noticed he said the water simulations are done in houdini - I dont know his exact process but if you're working on your own machine with an m.2 drive, you can just let those be 20-30gb+ and call it a day, streaming from disk. that aint going to cut it in a shipping title. He's thrown around megascans assets with no consideration to re-use or density.
Stuff like that just isnt practical, it'll get optimized into oblivion. If you're looking for compromises you'll always find them.

However, I personally believe most of what's carrying his look is simply nanite/lumen and super detailed megascans assets. That is absolutley coming in 18 months.
Plus a high contrast LUT and a good eye for details, but that's not a technical thing. A hand held style camera always helps too.
If you optimized that scene to fit into a sub 10gb executable and gave people full control to run around at top speed, filled it with npc's, some of the look would wear off. Not even getting into his color grading - it's so high contrast, the game version would never make it out of QA as people would miss NPC's in the shadows.

edit:
lol an example of 'throwing geometry at it' - look at his roof tiles
https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/asset...shi-cliffwoodvillagepicture-57.jpg?1680332516
They're rocks. scaled down to 10% height and copied over each other thousands of times.
 
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A

alloush

Member
Neilg said:
We've seen assets that quality, we've seen lighting that quality, just not in the same game at the same time. Fortnite has all the technical features used running on consoles already.
i'm sure in 18 months there will be assets that miss the mark for people to pore over. But I also believe within 6 months we'll see some games that are 12 months away from release that look very, very good.

One of the challenges with scaling that level of environment detail up is that it doesn't compare to the size of a normal game. One guy, very talented, working on a little village for 8 months can have that location use up 30gb of disk space or more and totally max out available GPU memory.
I noticed he said the water simulations are done in houdini - I dont know his exact process but if you're working on your own machine with an m.2 drive, you can just let those be 20-30gb+ and call it a day, streaming from disk. that aint going to cut it in a shipping title. He's thrown around megascans assets with no consideration to re-use or density.
Stuff like that just isnt practical, it'll get optimized into oblivion. If you're looking for compromises you'll always find them.

However, I personally believe most of what's carrying his look is simply nanite/lumen and super detailed megascans assets. That is absolutley coming in 18 months.
Plus a high contrast LUT and a good eye for details, but that's not a technical thing. A hand held style camera always helps too.
If you optimized that scene to fit into a sub 10gb executable and gave people full control to run around at top speed, filled it with npc's, some of the look would wear off. Not even getting into his color grading - it's so high contrast, the game version would never make it out of QA as people would miss NPC's in the shadows.

edit:
lol an example of 'throwing geometry at it' - look at his roof tiles
https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/asset...shi-cliffwoodvillagepicture-57.jpg?1680332516
They're rocks. scaled down to 10% height and copied over each other thousands of times.
Click to expand...
That's a very good assessment. But it's that bolded part that had me doubt if we will ever see graphics this good this gen. It just seems impossible to replicate in a full blown game, you will end up with a game well north of 500GBs of space. But then again, there are tons of techniques, secret sauces, tools etc that would help with simulating realistic looking graphics without ending up with a one terabyte game.

Sony's next showcase should give us a very good idea of where we at with graphics on next gen games 3 years into the lifecycle of these consoles.

Lastly, the screenshot you shared, are you implying that he used the same roof tiles over and over, like a copy-paste kinda thing? If that's the case then that's brilliant as it looks very real yet unnoticeable lol.
 
N

Neilg

Member
alloush said:
Lastly, the screenshot you shared, are you implying that he used the same roof tiles over and over, like a copy-paste kinda thing? If that's the case then that's brilliant as it looks very real yet unnoticeable lol.
Click to expand...

He didnt use roof tiles. Those are rocks. he's squashed them flat, and then copy-pasted them around. It looks good in this but in a real studio, your supervisor would be furious!
Using UE5 and megascans assets like people do really complex environments in planet coaster.

The optimization isnt as big of a road block as you might fear - it just adds a shitload of time and pre-planning. Skipping it allowed him to get a lot more work done as a single person.
In even the best looking games you'll find a bucket in an alleyway that was over-optimized and you can count the polygons on, but there will always be things like that in videogames. Always some corner that got less attention than the big moments. Best to not go looking for them if you value your sanity, it's not a fair representation of the work done elsewhere.
 
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A

alloush

Member
Neilg said:
He didnt use roof tiles. Those are rocks. he's squashed them flat, and then copy-pasted them around. It looks good in this but in a real studio, your supervisor would be furious!
Using UE5 and megascans assets like people do really complex environments in planet coaster.

The optimization isnt as big of a road block as you might fear - it just adds a shitload of time and pre-planning. Skipping it allowed him to get a lot more work done as a single person.
In even the best looking games you'll find a bucket in an alleyway that was over-optimized and you can count the polygons on, but there will always be things like that in videogames. Always some corner that got less attention than the big moments. Best to not go looking for them if you value your sanity, it's not a fair representation of the work done elsewhere.
Click to expand...
This makes sense. Appreciate you explaining this to me. Now that I look at those rocks I can see what you are talking about but as you mentioned if you are looking for something to be mad at you will find plenty better to just appreciate those graphics and not notice an ant in a jungle not having millions of polygons on it.
 
B

Balducci30

Member
Neilg said:
18 months+

There are/will be games in development now that look that good. But a game is more than just a single environment.

Some are coming much sooner but they're on the knife edge of semantics where someone will go 'aha but look at this blade of grass it doesn't look as good as that demo'
I would argue there are already games out that look that good but I can't be fucked getting into it with people that already don't agree.
Click to expand...
What looks even close to that - that’s currently out? Just so I know how ur gauging this
 
N

Neilg

Member
I know everyone raves about horizon forbidden west, and others bang about how shit they think it looks, but I haven't seen anyone specifically point out the anti aliasing technique used. It's pretty fucking good, no?
It's temporal but is rock solid with no trails/smearing, and even as you spin the camera around, bloom and light glows don't flicker.
There may be some aesthetic decisions people don't like about it but it's got one of the most stable images going, if not the most.

Edit: lol I just googled this and was surprised to read at launch the AA in this game was absolute dogshit and got fixed in a patch. Probably playing in variable refresh rate helps this kind of thing too. Either way I've never seen a cleaner image, including on PC with a 4090.
https://www.eurogamer.net/digitalfo...formance-mode-delivers-a-dramatic-improvement
 
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A

alloush

Member
Neilg said:
I know everyone raves about horizon forbidden west, and others bang about how shit they think it looks, but I haven't seen anyone specifically point out the anti aliasing technique used. It's pretty fucking good, no?
It's temporal but is rock solid with no trails/smearing, and even as you spin the camera around, bloom and light glows don't flicker.
There may be some aesthetic decisions people don't like about it but it's got one of the most stable images going, if not the most.

Edit: lol I just googled this and was surprised to read at launch the AA in this game was absolute dogshit and got fixed in a patch. Probably playing in variable refresh rate helps this kind of thing too. Either way I've never seen a cleaner image, including on PC with a 4090.
https://www.eurogamer.net/digitalfo...formance-mode-delivers-a-dramatic-improvement
Click to expand...
Honestly, I have never seen a more polarizing game on these boards than Horizon. The way people are split up on this game is borderline crazy. Some call it the best looking game this gen and others absolutely shit on it, and I am not just talking graphically. The game does have its fair share of haters on GAF which I found out lately, and it came as a bit of surprise to me, cuz the game is widely loved by the PS community worldwide and it is considered one of Sony’s main IPs.
 
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