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Greece Agreement Reached

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Kind of disgusting how French mainstream media are selling the whole thing as a win for everyone, just so they can spin the narrative of how influential (and beneficial) Hollande was in this.

I can't shake the feeling that in the long run, everyone lost here.
 

Theonik

Member
Kind of disgusting how French mainstream media are selling the whole thing as a win for everyone, just so they can spin the narrative of how influential (and beneficial) Hollande was in this.

I can't shake the feeling that in the long run, everyone lost here.
Well they can't say that Hollande has basically been shat on the whole way and that France's European project has basically been hijacked and they aren't really calling the shots anymore.
 

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
They have to implement the reforms they had proposed that involved billions for cuts by the 20th.

Which reforms? Looking for exact numbers. Can you point to a part of the document that references another document/deal? I don't see any, at least not when it comes to budget surplus targets and specific VAT/pension reforms.

This pre-deal is super vague on these issues. I don't even know how the legal text that have to pass on Wednesday would look like without being maximally flexible in its interpretation.
 
A

A More Normal Bird

Unconfirmed Member
1Cr9a9U.jpg
It's like an inverse automatic stabiliser. Genius! Maybe I should pitch my plan for a brake system that automatically deactivates when it detects that the car is slowing down to European authorities.
 

Joni

Member
I never actually drove into Belgium, only taken the train so I wouldn't know.
I'm sorry.

Hahaha whenever i exit the Netherlands and end up on the Belgian side, i know whats up, most of their roads look like something that was done 45 years ago, not to mention the holes everywhere :p
At least there is no grass growing through the cracks unlike the part of the Netherlands I pass to go to Gamescom.
 

elostyle

Never forget! I'm Dumb!
Once you get to the point Greece got themselves into it is very difficult to get out. Austerity isn't the answer definitely because it makes the problem worse, you would at the very least need major debt restructuring to avoid a default. (25% drop in the GDP)
Applying austerity in a recession is probably the most insane notion from all this as you are essentially deepening the recession.
It not being the answer is good and fine but what I am missing is how not-austerity and pouring money into an overweight public sector that's been treating loans as income for decades is supposed to work without drastic measures from within. It seems doubtful to me that there is a basis to which growth measures could even be applied in a way that wouldn't just be more of the same that lead us here in the first place. I am not an economist.

I also find it doubtful how useful of a measure GDP is in the case of Greece where 40% of it is public sector and another 15% is tourism.
 

Theonik

Member
Which reforms? Looking for exact numbers. Can you point to a part of the document that references another document/deal? I don't see any, at least not when it comes to budget surplus targets and specific VAT/pension reforms.

This pre-deal is super vague on these issues. I don't even know how the legal text that have to pass on Wednesday would look like without being maximally flexible in its interpretation.
It's very vague. But it mentions tax reforms which I think will be pulled from the Greek/French proposal. Since this is a that+ sort of deal I would expect the 12bn worth of cuts on that to be the basis for this MoU.

I'm sorry.
Hey, it was the ICE. It wasn't that bad. Save for the really shitty WiFi.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
It not being the answer is good and fine but what I am missing is how not-austerity and pouring money into an overweight public sector that's been treating loans as income for decades is supposed to work without drastic measures from within. It seems doubtful to me that there is a basis to which growth measures could even be applied in a way that wouldn't just be more of the same that lead us here in the first place. I am not an economist.

I also find it doubtful how useful of a measure GDP is in the case of Greece where 40% of it is public sector.

When you pay someone's wages, you keep consumption up. If I get paid £20,000 by the government, I'll probably put £4000 of that in savings, and spend £16,000 on various different products. When you spend money on products, it then goes towards the various people involved - labourers involved in the construction of the product, the owners of the company, the supplier whose raw materials were bought. Each of them will also save some, and then spend, say £12,000. The cycle repeats. So, an income of £20,000 actually has a much bigger effect for the economy as a whole than £20,000. If you fire me, I lose £20,000, and then all of the products I would have bought don't get bought, so all of those people are worse off by £16,000, and all the people they would have bought from are worse off by £12,000, and so on. One man's expenditure is another man's income.

So, Greece is in the situation where by cutting public expenditure, it is devastating private economy. All of those public sector workers that went out to buy private sector goods don't buy them any more. That means that private sector firms suffer too, and reduce the wages they pay, and even make people unemployed - and the government then has to support those people with unemployment benefits, which means that by cutting public sector wages you don't actually reduce the budget deficit that much because you then have to support a lot more people on the dole.

There are ways out of this. When an economy is growing very rapidly, you can maintain public sector wages at the same level, but because the economy is growing, people not in the public sector do earn more, so the government has more tax revenue but the same expenditure, so it trends towards a smaller deficit or even a surplus without having a dramatic effect on the economy. The trouble is that is relies on having an economy that is growing very rapidly. Greece doesn't have an economy that is growing rapidly, because there's no investment. There's no investment because nobody is buying things in Greece, because they don't have money. One of the reasons they don't have money is that public sector employees have been cut by almost a half and the wages of the remainder dropped massively, so there are no consumers with the spare money to buy products in the first place.

So, Greece is damned if it does, damned if it doesn't. Every time it implements a reform to help reduce government expenditure, it damages the economy further, which means there is less government tax revenue, which means it has to reduce government expenditure again, which damages the economy again.

The solution, to the extent there is one, is to ride out the economic downtimes, and then implement reforms. I.e., increase government spending - run deficts of 5%, 10% - until the economy begins to recover, then slowly start reducing government spending and implementing reforms at roughly the same pace that the economy recovers. Greece can't do this because other countries won't let it. Obviously, Greece needs to undergo reforms anyway, but you can't implement reforms when you're in the situation Greece is in. It's like trying to replace the wing of an airplane you're flying in.

Public sector spending is also an important a part of GDP as anything else, for the reasons at the top. GDP is just Gross Domestic Production, and really is a bit of a misnomer because really, in the modern era (it's an old term), people normally mean Gross Domestic Output - we don't exclude the services sector from GDP after all, and they don't 'produce' things.
 
.

Am now realizing that, if Tsipras pushes this deal through parliament, Syriza will obviously be perma-fractured, which, ok, whatever, expected.

If, however, the deal manages to pass parliament (which shouldn't be impossible due to support from ND and Pasok) and is then cockblocked at the bundestag/finnish/whomever?

Well shit, mate. You just destroyed your administration for absolutely fuck all.
---
Also i swear to god the dude is straight trolling by now

Wolfgang Schäuble appears to have agreed with George Osborne, that the EFSM fund should not be used to find a loan to Greece.
Rik Winkel @RikWinkel

#Schauble: risk for bridge financing should lie in Greece. If not: moral hazard → maybe EU-budget, but not EFSM.
8:32 AM - 14 Jul 2015 · Brussels, Belgium, België
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
Which reforms? Looking for exact numbers. Can you point to a part of the document that references another document/deal? I don't see any, at least not when it comes to budget surplus targets and specific VAT/pension reforms.

This pre-deal is super vague on these issues. I don't even know how the legal text that have to pass on Wednesday would look like without being maximally flexible in its interpretation.

The 3.5% surplus by 2018 was even in the Greek proposal from Thursday. Because it was in the Troika proposal from 2 weeks ago. And was always on the plate for the discussions this year. Wasn't even a topic in the negotiations on Sunday. They mostly focused on the 50 billion fund and what to do with the Greek banks on Sunday.
 
bullshit, the austerity reforms have been implemented as intended, the notion that austerity doesn't work because of culture reasons has been pegged everytime it happens. Every single time neoliberal policies doesn't work, it's because of cultural aspects or that they weren't done right, that the neoliberal principle is obviously not wrong, it can't be wrong!
Who is making the notion austerity didn't work because of 'cultural reasons'?
Austerity implemented as intended? You're selling a myth.

A number of structural reforms were seen as necessary: adjustment of the tax administration, reducing barriers to entry in professions, reforms of pensions, reforms of collective bargaining, reforms of the judicial system, etc.
Many of these reforms were either not implemented, or not implemented on a sufficient scale. Efforts to improve tax collection and the payment culture failed completely. Privatization and liberalization only met resistance.
Only 5 of 12 planned IMF reviews under the 2010 program were completed, and only one has been completed since mid-2013, because of the failure to implement reforms.
 
M°°nblade;171844946 said:
Who is making the notion austerity didn't work because of 'cultural reasons'?
Austerity implemented as intended? You're selling a myth.

A number of structural reforms were seen as necessary: adjustment of the tax administration, reducing barriers to entry in professions, reforms of pensions, reforms of collective bargaining, reforms of the judicial system, etc.
Many of these reforms were either not implemented, or not implemented on a sufficient scale. Efforts to improve tax collection and the payment culture failed completely. Privatization and liberalization only met resistance.
Only 5 of 12 planned IMF reviews under the 2010 program were completed, and only one has been completed since mid-2013, because of the failure to implement reforms.

At which point I'll remind you that the IMF has admitted that it failed to gauge the impact of austerity on greece. More than once.


Of course you're welcome to pretend that if they had applied austerity even harderer, shit would've worked.

At which point we remind you that we also have the IMF study on what would happen if austerity had gone swimmingly, which determined that Greece would still be heavily indebted and up Mt. Shit Creek by 2030.

tumblr_mxh4i2zyUn1qdsm1jo1_500.gif


Plus its not like we can't always look to the other success stories in ireland, spain and portugal and point out that they in a terrible position compared to their pre-crash numbers. Just aint as terrible as greece, is all.
 
The US can run eternal deficits because it's the US. Nobody is going to call the US out and demand we pay back our debts because we're the US, not only is the US "too big to fail" we um also have 10 aircraft carriers. Come at us bros.

Essentially, if you're a superpower, you can do what you want. Greece is not a superpower. RIP.
And this is why Uncle Sam keeps printing dollars like there's no tomorrow... no one is going to say "Americans have been living beyond their means for decades", even though it's probably true.

ps: Interest payments are easy when you control your own currency and especially when the USD is the de facto reserve currency. That may change in the future though (China/renminbi).

Better yet, let's admit Greece has a tax evasion problem. Let's observe that Greek revenues are dangerously dependent on taxes more-so than some other states.
Then let us solve this problem by removing parts of the remaining revenues in hopes of greater taxes.
And when someone has the guts to propose an electronic-only currency, people get batshit crazy about it. Greece could easily become a role model for the entire Western world, just before Denmark.

As long as cash exists, there will always be tax evasion. Deal with it. It's like complaining about used game sales. As long as retail games exist, there will always be a black market/used game sales.

Technological illiteracy is a piss poor excuse. I remember people saying that the elderly people would never be able to use the Euro. Greeks have proved that they know how to use both debit cards and e-banking (tax revenue is at an all-time high from what I'm hearing). Pls bring moar capital controls and don't increase the ELA!
 
Britain and the Czech Republic have already said they won't pay for this and they're in it through the EFSM, that's probably why.

Or, you know, "trolling".

Remind me again which of the two countries you mentioned currently use the euro as currency.
 
Arguments don't mean quoting from a document that I can read myself and I read it already twice. Arguments means to describe what do you think the impact of those measures will have. What measure will have what impact that would tackle which problem. How it will tackle it.

Sorry, but I feel like I'm talking to a wall, so I won't continue this conversation. I'm better off by printing the document and talking to it.

Edit: now that I'm thinking about it, are you working at European Parliament or European Commission, because this looks like the typical dialog one would have with an European bureaucrat?
no, I'm not.
You're moving the goalposts.
I gave 5 reasons why Greece continues to fall and why austerity worsened its economic situation.
You answered the new plan won't tackle any of those reasons.
I mentioned some immediate measures of the new plan with a clear deadline, that do tackle 3 out of the 5 reasons mentioned being corruption, the large private sector and excessive tax management.

And now you say that quotes don't count and I have to point out which measurement tackles what reason? I have to spell you how 'no political interference in the financial sector' and 'measures to tackle defaulters' will help to battle corruption and tax fraud?
 

Theonik

Member
Actually you do because I'm convinced you have no idea what you're talking about. I mean we don't even have any idea what those mean. Do you?
Because there are very sound arguments in this thread about how the application of austerity has damaged the Greek economy with actual reports from reputable institutions and backed with relevant data but you are somehow disagreeing without providing any evidence.
 

Why should I need to pretend? It goes without a saying that when you reduce your public servants, and at the same time fail [URL="https://welfens.wordpress.com/2015/02/09/new-greek-coalition-government-with-brinkmanship-and-lack-of-reforms/"]structural industrial reforms in order to boost your export and create new jobs
you're bound to just get more umemployed.
It's a clear example of the saying 'doing half work means double work'.

Actually you do because I'm convinced you have no idea what you're talking about. I mean we don't even have any idea what those mean. Do you?
Because there are very sound arguments in this thread about how the application of austerity has damaged the Greek economy with actual reports from reputable institutions and backed with relevant data but you are somehow disagreeing without providing any evidence.
Yet my arguments are the ones thatcome from actual reports from reputable institutions like the IMF.

Stating the austerity was implemented according to keikaku is simply incorrect.
 
Austerity is a matter of religion so it can never be wrong. It doesn't spring from facts, it springs from the fertile coupling of neoliberalism and protestant morals.
 

EloKa

Member
Remind me again which of the two countries you mentioned currently use the euro as currency.

Maybe you should remind yourself what the EFSM is.
You could also remind us when the UK or Czech Republic left the European Union because I can't recall that.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
M°°nblade;171845714 said:
And now you say that quotes don't count and I have to point out which measurement tackles what reason? I have to spell you how 'no political interference in the financial sector' and 'measures to tackle defaulters' will help to battle corruption and tax fraud?

Those are useless words on a piece of paper, not measures. If I sign on a paper that I will bring peace to the world, can you lend me 100 billions?

But be happy that you keep throwing money in a pit based on fairy tales.

Because everybody knows that nothing is better in a tax evasion friendly environment than to increase taxes.

There is no political interference in the financial sector other than the Eurogroup stopping ECB from being a real central bank.

Measure to tackle defaulters would be to actual acknowledge the damn default and not hide more garbage under the rug.

And I'm done. I'm talking about actual figures and actual measures and possible impacts based on previous similar models, you're talking about fairy tales. Let's agree that we leave in two separate worlds (one is based on economy and one is based on ideology) and drop it.
 
M°°nblade;171845978 said:
Why should I need to pretend? It goes without a saying that when you reduce your public servants, and at the same time fail structural industrial reforms in order to boost your export and create new jobs you're bound to just get more umemployed.
It's a clear example of the saying 'doing half work means double work'.

You do know that you've linked to a paper pointing out that syriza, who, at the time that paper was published, had been in power for less than a month, failed to enact reforms, yeah?
 
You do know that you've linked to a paper pointing out that syriza, who, at the time that paper was published, had been in power for less than a month, failed to enact reforms, yeah?
Read the paper again:
the previous Greek government had adopted inadequate reforms for promoting exports and creating new companies, but it is as yet unclear whether or not the new coalition of the left-wing Syriza and the right-wing ANEL will implement a better reform program for export promotion.

It's time to stop the calimero act.
 
M°°nblade;171844946 said:
Who is making the notion austerity didn't work because of 'cultural reasons'?
Austerity implemented as intended? You're selling a myth.
Every single time fiscal austere policies perpetrated by the IMF or the World Bank don't work the blame is laid upon cultural inadequacies and not the process itself. Happened with Argentina, happening with Greece right now.
Also, the policies implementation were reviewed by the committee and they were fine enough with how they were being applied to unlock the bailout payments.
 

Joni

Member
Hey, it was the ICE. It wasn't that bad. Save for the really shitty WiFi.
That is the German railroads. The Belgian railroads are something special.

It is probably pointless to point that out because as Varoufakis has said: Lagarde has no problem admitting austerity doesn't work here, but that certainly doesn't mean she will accept anything else than austerity as the solution.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
Also, the policies implementation were reviewed by the committee and they were fine enough with how they were being applied to unlock the bailout payments.

Exactly. You can't blame in 2015 the previous government for not fulfilling the requirements when every IMF batch is released only if the agreed milestones are achieved. But not knowing how the actual world works, makes your ideal world better.
 
There is no political interference in the financial sector other than the Eurogroup stopping ECB from being a real central bank.
->
The European statistics agency, Eurostat, had at regular intervals ever since 2004, sent 10 delegations to Athens with a view to improving the reliability of statistical figures related to the Greek national account, but apparently to no avail. In January 2010, it issued a damning report which contained accusations of falsified data and political interference.
http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/docume...rt_greek/c8523cfa-d3c1-4954-8ea1-64bb11e59b3a


But I agree that we seem to be living in 2 different worlds! :p
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
M°°nblade;171846500 said:
->

The European statistics agency, Eurostat, had at regular intervals ever since 2004, sent 10 delegations to Athens with a view to improving the reliability of statistical figures related to the Greek national account, but apparently to no avail. In January 2010, it issued a damning report which contained accusations of falsified data and political interference.

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/docume...rt_greek/c8523cfa-d3c1-4954-8ea1-64bb11e59b3a


But I agree that we seem to be living in 2 different worlds! :p

My god! Statistics is not a financial sector.

Edit:

DEFINITION of 'Financial Sector'
A category of stocks containing firms that provide financial services to commercial and retail customers. This sector includes banks, investment funds, insurance companies and real estate.
 
M°°nblade;171846242 said:
Read the paper again:
It's time to stop the calimero act.

If you're gonna keep harping on about what they did or didn't do, you should just read the fifth review and be done with it.

Bonus points if you find the bit where they say that what Greece should do asap is make firing people easier.

Maybe you should remind yourself what the EFSM is.
You could also remind us when the UK or Czech Republic left the European Union because I can't recall that.

I can remind you of what Cameron told the EU to do in 2010 when they floated the idea of the UK's share of the EFSM being used to bailout EZ countries. And that they reached an agreement. Which you probably already know.

You are then welcome to continue pretending that you don't know how their situation is very much sui generis, and pushing them on this issue is not something one quite desires.
 

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
Leaked IMF report says no loans anymore without debt write off, debt might rise at 200% of GDP.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
^ Here's a link for the story:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/14/us-eurozone-greece-imf-report-idUSKCN0PO1CB20150714

Greece will need debt relief far beyond what euro zone partners have been prepared to consider due to the devastation of its economy and banks in the last two weeks, a confidential study by the International Monetary Fund seen by Reuters shows.

The updated debt sustainability analysis was sent to euro zone governments late on Monday, hours after Athens and its 18 partners agreed in principle to open negotiations on a third bailout program of up to 86 billion euros in return for tougher austerity measures and structural reforms.

"The dramatic deterioration in debt sustainability points to the need for debt relief on a scale that would need to go well beyond what has been under consideration to date - and what has been proposed by the ESM," the IMF said, referring to the European Stability Mechanism bailout fund.

European countries would have to give Greece a 30-year grace period on servicing all its European debt, including new loans, and a very dramatic maturity extension, or else make explicit annual fiscal transfers to the Greek budget or accept "deep upfront haircuts" on their loans to Athens, the report said.

55509315.jpg
 
That did leak at the best time to completely screw up Tsipras's push of the deal to the Greek parliament.

Interesting times ahead.
 

mnz

Unconfirmed Member
You are then welcome to continue pretending that you don't know how their situation is very much sui generis, and pushing them on this issue is not something one quite desires.
But that's exactly why Schäuble wants to avoid the EFSM for bridge financing, which you called trolling!?

Pretty good infographic on the timeline of Greek debt:
http://graphics.wsj.com/greece-debt-timeline/

I wonder if one goal is to get Greece over the "bump" in 2015, since the future looks more evened out.
 
But there is a middle way between austerity (as it is defined in Europe and spending spree. It's called fiscal responsibility and means trying to keep your budget close to 0 deficit in average. Ideally by having surplus in the good years and deficit in the bad ones. But targeting a surplus of 3.5% in a deep recession is quite criminal.

There is no reason to stop economic growth by generating a surplus if your output can meet demand.



The US can run eternal deficits because it's the US. Nobody is going to call the US out and demand we pay back our debts because we're the US, not only is the US "too big to fail" we um also have 10 aircraft carriers. Come at us bros.

Essentially, if you're a superpower, you can do what you want. Greece is not a superpower. RIP.

But Japan.

The difference between USA and Greece (or any other countries which are trying to run a massive deficit) is that the USA proved to be trustworthy and don't forget its interest payments.

Low risk investments for all the foreign creditors.

We almost defaulted due to politics. The U.S. csn pay its debts because we print out own money and control its supply. It's called sovereignty. What every economist is saying Greece needs.
 

tokkun

Member
It doesn't work that way. The US is actually paying their debts and is in fact constitutionally obliged not to default on its debts. The thing is, you outgrow your debts.
Running eternal deficits is one of the ways you do so. Sure your debt grows, but not in relation to your GDP fast enough for it to be a problem.

US debt has been growing relative to GDP. It is really only manageable today because it was reined in during fair-weather austerity in the late-90s and to a smaller extent foul-weather austerity a couple years ago.
 
There is no reason to stop economic growth by generating a surplus if your output can meet demand.





But Japan.



We almost defaulted due to politics. The U.S. csn pay its debts because we print out own money and control its supply. It's called sovereignty. What every economist is saying Greece needs.

That's nonsense. The USA gets loans and can run deficits because the Dollar is one of the most stable currencies in the world which make it interesting and safe for investments. Basically the Dollar is so successful because the USA isnt doing anything crazy with it.

Drachma was such an unstable mess that everyone got cold feet when it suddenly became an option.
 
But that's exactly why Schäuble wants to avoid the EFSM for bridge financing, which you called trolling!?

I wonder if one goal is to get Greece over the "bump" in 2015, since the future looks more evened out.
Ah, i see. Yeah, i should've developed that point further. My bad. Was meant to be taken in conjunction with his suggestion of Greece issuing IOU's.

That's nonsense. The USA gets loans and can run deficits because the Dollar is one of the most stable currencies in the world which make it interesting and safe for investments. Basically the Dollar is so successful because the USA isnt doing anything crazy with it.
But japan.
 
Well they can't say that Hollande has basically been shat on the whole way and that France's European project has basically been hijacked and they aren't really calling the shots anymore.

Sure they can. They're the media, not the government. The French media does have a history of being weirdly deferential to their government, but it doesn't need to be that way.
 
That's nonsense. The USA gets loans and can run deficits because the Dollar is one of the most stable currencies in the world which make it interesting and safe for investments. Basically the Dollar is so successful because the USA isnt doing anything crazy with it.

Drachma was such an unstable mess that everyone got cold feet when it suddenly became an option.

It's not nonsense, and you saying it is doesn't make it so.

What about Japan? I brought them up in comment you quoted of me.
 
Japan is the Greece of Asia. Huge debt & aging population & not as competitive as it used to be.

They're just lucky enough to have their own currency...
 
Well, you can clearly see from their rampant inflation and terrible rating agency score the dreadful effects that high debt has enacted on their economy.

I think he should write them a nice letter informing them of the impending doom they'll face when the world no longer takes the yen seriously simply because it's not a dollar.
 



I guess everyone knows this, even Schäuble and Merkel. And they still have the relatively easy way out of just extending the debt repayment and interest rates to 30, 40 years in the future (just like I suggested a couple pages ago). It's essentially the same as a haircut, but it's far easier to sell to your electorate.

The major issue is not Greece's debt, it can be extended for 10, 20 or 200 years, it doesn't matter all that much in the grand scheme of things. The problem is that there is still no viable plan to get Greece back to growing. 3.5% primary surplus in 2 or 3 years sounds ridiculous right now. There's no way Greece will reach that, unless its GDP is crippled yet again. There would have to be some kind of European investment program (like the one from Juncker, but only for Greece), investing, say, 2% of the Greek GDP every year if Greece meets the required reforms.
 

PJV3

Member
I love that the powers that be in the EU keep ignoring the debt problem, they may as well demand 200 billion from the homeless bloke near my house.

The EZ way would be to break his kneecaps first of course.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
I guess everyone knows this, even Schäuble and Merkel. And they still have the relatively easy way out of just extending the debt repayment and interest rates to 30, 40 years in the future (just like I suggested a couple pages ago). It's essentially the same as a haircut, but it's far easier to sell to your electorate.

I'm looking forward to see how transparent will this be communicated to their electorate.
 
I guess everyone knows this, even Schäuble and Merkel. And they still have the relatively easy way out of just extending the debt repayment and interest rates to 30, 40 years in the future (just like I suggested a couple pages ago). It's essentially the same as a haircut, but it's far easier to sell to your electorate.

The sad thing is this.

Attempting to sound an emollient note, Mr Varoufakis told the Financial Times the government would no longer call for a headline write-off of Greece’s €315bn foreign debt. Rather it would request a “menu of debt swaps” to ease the burden, including two types of new bonds.

The first type, indexed to nominal economic growth, would replace European rescue loans, and the second, which he termed “perpetual bonds”, would replace European Central Bank-owned Greek bonds.

He said his proposal for a debt swap would be a form of “smart debt engineering” that would avoid the need to use a term such as a debt “haircut”, politically unacceptable in Germany and other creditor countries because it sounds to taxpayers like an outright loss.

To be fair, that was only in february.
 
I'm looking forward to see how transparent will this be communicated to their electorate.


Don't worry, they won't to that transparently ^^ That's exactly the point. Nobody wants to publicly say "Whoops, another haircut, your tax money is lost."

@Coriolanus I have to read into this a little more, because right now I'm not entirely sure what that is supposed to be.
 

LJ11

Member
Japan is the Greece of Asia. Huge debt & aging population & not as competitive as it used to be.

They're just lucky enough to have their own currency...

They have a massive savings base however, they gobble up Japanese bonds.

Italy's an interesting case. Have many of the problems listed above, South is a mess, and their economy has gone nowhere in a decade and half, but they as well have a good savings base to draw from.
 
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