Fenderputty
Banned
Why do you think anyone who's suggesting investment wants to just "toss money at an issue"
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Greece Agreement Reached
- Thread starter Syriel
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Why do you think anyone who's suggesting investment wants to just "toss money at an issue"
CyclopsRock
Member
Homeless people are culturally incapable of enacting long-term reforms, tbf.
KillerMan91
Member
And that their debt is largely owned by Japanese themselves.
Jep, that's a key difference and the reason Japan is "getting away" with their debt.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
In fact, the US is probably actually in a situation right now where it should be running a surplus or a much smaller deficit. You're in the third year of positive growth that's expected to continue, with relatively low inflation. And lo and behold, that's exactly what is beginning to happen. It's sad when US economic practice is just so obviously better than the European equivalent.
Fenderputty
Banned
If Eurozone acted like an actual Union this point would be moot.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
That's more or less an open secret at this point.
It's a pretty weird mood right now. France celebrates Hollande but no one else seems to be happy. Greece seems to be willing to push the program through the parliament, Germany is blaming... Germany, UK is like "that's not my problem", Finland is like "hell nah" but isn't saying it out loud (yet).
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Watching Mark Carney trying to be diplomatic in his statement while also telling the truth and not avoiding the question is hilarious.
"Do you think that Greece can actually meet its debt obligations?"
"Well, I uh... I mean, the Greek state faces immense difficulties, but uh... perseverance is a known quality in approaching these problems, and eh... it could be the case that uh... mind you, I've not actually seen what the Eurofund has said, so um... next question, please."
"Do you think that Greece can actually meet its debt obligations?"
"Well, I uh... I mean, the Greek state faces immense difficulties, but uh... perseverance is a known quality in approaching these problems, and eh... it could be the case that uh... mind you, I've not actually seen what the Eurofund has said, so um... next question, please."
If the Eurozone was that integrated it would consist of maybe france+germany and benelux.
and even then, i doubt the germans and the french would be getting along that well.
Resident_UA
Member
This whole thing is ridiculous for multiple of reasons.
1. It seems all EU gives a shit about is getting their money back at this point, but they have no idea how to do it. So they just give more
2. Greece conducts one of stupidest referendums ever which does nothing but piss off EU even more.
3. Neither EU nor Greece know how to get out of this mess at this point. Which is makes Greece look particularly bad. They should at least pretend to be trying instead of letting EU decide everything.
1. It seems all EU gives a shit about is getting their money back at this point, but they have no idea how to do it. So they just give more
2. Greece conducts one of stupidest referendums ever which does nothing but piss off EU even more.
3. Neither EU nor Greece know how to get out of this mess at this point. Which is makes Greece look particularly bad. They should at least pretend to be trying instead of letting EU decide everything.
Kazimir is back.
https://twitter.com/KazimirPeter
Replacing Greek Spring with Syriza Spring makes it ok somehow.
Still sounds like political revenge to me.
https://twitter.com/KazimirPeter
Replacing Greek Spring with Syriza Spring makes it ok somehow.
Still sounds like political revenge to me.
M°°nblade;171837512 said:
I am not sure how you misunderstood my post to this degree.
I said, in the part you quoted, that forced privatization of state services is a colonial impulse, not austerity. Then I said, in response to you saying essentially "lots of countries do austerity," that austerity is poor governance and you shouldn't jump off a bridge just because everybody else does.
There's no way to get from there to thinking that I think Belgium is poorly governed because the harbor is privatized. Try again!
M°°nblade;171837512 said:
Krugman's solution for Greece is Grexit, he's said it repeatedly.
Theonik
Member
The railroad itself was pretty functional!
It's weird. National media tend to not in many cases not to very actively push this kind of narrative, unless they intend to directly critique it for it. This thread is a good example of this.
Shit's hit the figurative fan.
Fenderputty
Banned
Not really if you look at the newspapers' covers:
Libération (left): "Grèce - La défaite nationale" (Greece, the national defeat*)
Le Figaro (right): "L'Europe des créanciers" (Creditors' Europe)
Today being France's national day *(fête nationale, with fête and défaite sounding similarly), don't get fooled by titles like Le Parisien's "Jour de fête pour Hollande".
"France celebrates Hollande" is what German media is reporting at least.
Theonik
Member
Now this is more like what I'd have normally expected from French media.
IMF doesn't accept defaults. You can delay IMF payment as much as you like. They will haunt you for as long as it takes.
The Parti Socialiste and its allies are celebrating Hollande's efforts.
France is not.
petran79
Banned
Also they accept very few foreign immigrants or refugees compared to Greece
so all the profits go mostly to Japan, not to the country of the immigrants. Also Japan does not have Roma (Gypsies). Japan is a clean country, revisioning its WWII history.
Immigrants and Gypsies from the Balkans used to consider Greece a paradise for work, now they want to leave to other countries.
Also Greece and Italy have to take over the refugee crisis. There was a plan to share 40.000 immigrants from those countries across Europe, but countries like the UK objected and nothing happened. Hungary also withdrew from Dublin Agreement, despite having a fraction of the refugees of Greece and Italy. So yes, the lazy PIGS, the dregs of Europe have to accept the dregs of the Middle East. Only clean and educated immigrants are allowed to Northern Europe.
M°°nblade;171838919 said:
Even prior to the election there was an issue as to how much control Tsipras, the Prime Minister, exerted over its party. Unfortunately very little. The old members were those giving orders and in the first months he was their puppet, swinging back and forth between Greece, Russia and Brussels. They didnt like the EU agreement, they sent him back to re-negotiate. Rinse and repeat. Without any plan. Very late did he realize he had to make drastic changes and even then it was clear he had very little control.
The current Portuguese government has submitted too much to european and troika demands (to the detriment of the country) to seriously consider leaving.
Also, if they did it, they'd have no political career prospects outside the country they've been mismanaging - most PSD and PS folk probably look at Durão Barroso's career as the kind of life goal they'd want for themselves.
Theonik
Member
That is not true. Even failed politicians can make a a lot of money giving talks outside their own countries that probably never want to see their face again.
Even Papandreou and other failed Greek administrators still make loads this way!
Ether_Snake
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Tsipras is still pretty popular though, there's a political void in Greece. So unless Varoufakis started a new party I expect Tsipras to stay in power.
Also, this saga is far from over, the agreement can't really work, and I'm curious to see how Germany will react if Tsipras stays in power. I think their offer was made under the belief he would be ousted. If he stays, I wouldn't be surprised to see the whole deal fall apart because it can't even work anyway and they'll keep bullying Greece's government, saying it's not doing what it said it would, finding excuses at every chance they get to attack Syriza.
Also, this saga is far from over, the agreement can't really work, and I'm curious to see how Germany will react if Tsipras stays in power. I think their offer was made under the belief he would be ousted. If he stays, I wouldn't be surprised to see the whole deal fall apart because it can't even work anyway and they'll keep bullying Greece's government, saying it's not doing what it said it would, finding excuses at every chance they get to attack Syriza.
do you happen to be a Golden Dawn voter?
You bring up one thesis after another and all are ... just wow
first "Tsipras is the greatest mastermind in greeks history and everything is planed"
then "Germany will become totally isolated"
to this "the new southern Greece alliance will force Germany to leave the EU"
then you had this "portugal, italy, spain will hate germany if greece doesn't get haircuts for all debts"
to "the deal will fail if Tsipras stays in power and germany will bully a party because they don't like one guy there"
are you constantly drunk or is this stuff ment to be serious?
This could very well be the stupidest commentary on the economy that I've read in 2 months, and that says a lot considering the number of uninformed uneducated people who chimed in with xenophobic stereotyping.
Immigrants draining "profits" away to their origin countries. Sigh.
Ether_Snake
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All of this is playing out, it just won't happen overnight.
If Germany continues to act in its self interest, it will only worsen the situation for the south, and in a democratic union you can't continuously act in your own self interest without either seeing the other members most impacted leave the union or try to force the beneficiaries out.
Since Germany won't change its position, and since democracy won't vanish, it's inevitable that more pain will come to the south in the near future, which will bring us ever closer to the above outcome.
And at the core, the union makes sense if you have the poorer countries working together, otherwise it becomes unbalanced in favor of the rich and since we live in a capitalist world those imbalances eventually lead to the survival of the strongest at the detriment of the weakest.
It's the same dynamic we have been seeing at large in the economy.
I don't think I agree with most of this (although I suspect that Portugal/Italy/Spain are actually pretty leery of the euro right now), but do you honestly think that the troika won't act disingenuously in the future if it means taking more Greek assets? Of course they'll never agree that Greek government is acting in good faith. It would remove their moral leverage.
What I don't understand is why this issue isn't on the table. (Source: http://ec.europa.eu/employment_soci.../Your social security rights in Greece_en.pdf)
The entire situation, including debates over how measures will impact the poor, would be much easier if such a program was in place. Nobody would dare to significantly attack a minimum social security system, as that wouldn't have a majority support in any creditor nation. At least I like to believe that.
If the great depression of the last century told us something, is that you need systems like that, not only because of basic humanist values, but also to insure social stability. It's a shame that the EU hasn't managed to implement a EU-wide standard for such systems, including shared funding if necessary.
I also don't understand why Syriza, of all parties, isn't emphasizing the need for such a system stronger. Why keep your shitty pension system as an inadequate bandaid for the lack of a real social security system.
The entire situation, including debates over how measures will impact the poor, would be much easier if such a program was in place. Nobody would dare to significantly attack a minimum social security system, as that wouldn't have a majority support in any creditor nation. At least I like to believe that.
If the great depression of the last century told us something, is that you need systems like that, not only because of basic humanist values, but also to insure social stability. It's a shame that the EU hasn't managed to implement a EU-wide standard for such systems, including shared funding if necessary.
I also don't understand why Syriza, of all parties, isn't emphasizing the need for such a system stronger. Why keep your shitty pension system as an inadequate bandaid for the lack of a real social security system.
Ether_Snake
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Also, the constant drop of the euro's value, which will continue to fall as the crisis hits the rest of the south down the road unless the Troika magically changes its attitude, is not coincidental. The economy tends to self-regulate, and the dropping euro is a first but important step in the emergence of a new southern-european currency, if it doesn't end up being the euro itself.
And the lower it goes, the more Germany and co.'s stakes in preserving the status quo increases, making them even more likely to clash and act against the south's interest and increase the divisions.
And the lower it goes, the more Germany and co.'s stakes in preserving the status quo increases, making them even more likely to clash and act against the south's interest and increase the divisions.
Theonik
Member
You brought it up in these threads before. It's definitely a question that needs addressing but no-one is asking right now. It's a European issue but European unity is on the low side right now.What I don't understand is why this issue isn't on the table. (Source: http://ec.europa.eu/employment_soci.../Your social security rights in Greece_en.pdf)
The entire situation, including debates over how measures will impact the poor, would be much easier if such a program was in place. Nobody would dare to significantly attack a minimum social security system, as that wouldn't have a majority support in any creditor nation. At least I like to believe that.
If the great depression of the last century told us something, is that you need systems like that, not only because of basic humanist values, but also to insure social stability. It's a shame that the EU hasn't managed to implement a EU-wide standard for such systems, including shared funding if necessary.
I also don't understand why Syriza, of all parties, isn't emphasizing the need for such a system stronger. Why keep your shitty pension system as an inadequate bandaid for the lack of a real social security system.
It would be a good start towards a transfer union.
Frankfurter
Member
That would totally depend on how the union is setup, though. Just because there is a union (state) doesn't necessarily mean that member states can't default and/or face problems with their debt.
While looking to find Syriza's official policies I found this from 2013. At 13.1 they mention unemployment benefit. 13.3 is much more direct:
As to why they haven't I don't know, but I'm guessing the mountain of stuff that needs fixing is part of the reason.
Machspeed007
Member
Well, a southern alliance is an interesting idea. And since in a southern alliance Greece would be the wealthiest country, I hope Greece does lend money to other southern countries that are not so lucky when it comes to wages.
Of course this will mean that all the southerners will have the same salaries and pensions, at least at the same level as Greece has now. Everybody will be happy in the southern alliance with Greece providing the money for a good life in every country in its vicinity.
Coriolanus
Banned
Jacobin interview with Stathis Kouvelakis, of the leading members of the Left Platform inside Syriza explaining what happened inside the government in the last couple weeks.
tl;dr: Tsipras truly is a feckless, naive idiot. Also confirms bits of Varoufakis's latest interview, fwiw.
Also details at length how Dragasakis is a royal cunt. Grain of salt, but ye gods. Nice bit about the coalition falling apart is that we get all these juicy stories.
tl;dr: Tsipras truly is a feckless, naive idiot. Also confirms bits of Varoufakis's latest interview, fwiw.
Also details at length how Dragasakis is a royal cunt. Grain of salt, but ye gods. Nice bit about the coalition falling apart is that we get all these juicy stories.
If this is true, I don't see why someone should trust Tsipras anymore as leader (for the party, for the government, for anything).
Which countries would this alliance consist of?
Coriolanus
Banned
I'm reading most of this as the Left Platform starting to position itself as the alternative to whatever grotesquerie Syriza is about to/has become.
Interview was quite the infodump, tho. Still working through it.Getting the vibe that they'll try to launch Panagiotis Lafazanis as the new PM candidate.
Also, to put a smile on Ether+Snake's face:
Machspeed007
Member
Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia, Albania, Croatia to name a few. With Greece's money, these countries would attain a high standard of living. They will just spend more and more money until the economies get going. No austerity ever for these countries, just money they'll borrow from Greece to kickstart prosperity in the next decade.
I think this guy is trying to troll us here.
Coriolanus
Banned
Greece is weird.
MacroPolis @MacroPolis_gr
Kapa Research for To Vima
If there is change to coalition, who should be PM?
Tsipras 68.1%
Another, widely accepted figure 22.6%
Kapa Research poll for To Vima
Should Parliament approve the Brussels agreement?
Yes 70.1%
No 25.3%
Kapa Research poll for To Vima
Who is to blame for tough measures?
European leaders 48.7%
Greek gov't 44.4%
MacroPolis @MacroPolis_gr
Kapa Research for To Vima
If there is change to coalition, who should be PM?
Tsipras 68.1%
Another, widely accepted figure 22.6%
Kapa Research poll for To Vima
Should Parliament approve the Brussels agreement?
Yes 70.1%
No 25.3%
Kapa Research poll for To Vima
Who is to blame for tough measures?
European leaders 48.7%
Greek gov't 44.4%
jakonovski
Member
Stockholm Syndrome.
As long as the union doesn't have a unique currency that advantages just Greece, it might work.
In the end if Greece is so rich, it must invest in something to compensate for deflation and aging population.
no, I don't believe in this, but the analogy was way too poor not to play this game
Gurgelhals
Member
I think Varoufakis has had enough of front bench politics for quite some time.
Nikodemos
Member
I thank Jacobin and Stathis Kouvelakis for confirming and reinforcing my previously-stated position that Tsipras is a naive Europhile who got played like a penny whistle.
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