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[Mrmartel]

Similar but not quite the same topic. But the Greece economic situation and the clusterfuck of European "unity" presently and in future (non unity basically), proves that Russia may have a point when it comes to how divided Europe really is.

The Greece issue is a big one no doubt, but is small fries compare to possible future Russian aggression and incursions into NATO countries. Imo I use the Greek example of future European loyalties and any substantial hardships/war/economic decline will absolutely make any current/future alliances between European countries fall like a deck of cards when the time comes.

Russia is certainly licking their lips at the moment.

 

[Purkake4]

I think Varoufakis has had enough of front bench politics for quite some time.

Obviously he just needs his own little chair in front of the front bench.

 

[ElTorro]

Jacobin interview with Stathis Kouvelakis, of the leading members of the Left Platform inside Syriza explaining what happened inside the government in the last couple weeks.

They were also afraid about the dynamic from below that would be released by this initiative. On the other hand, the Left Platform’s leader and minister of energy and productive reconstruction, Panagiotis Lafazanis said that the referendum was the right decision, albeit one that came too late, but he also warned that this amounted to a declaration of war, that the other side would cut off the liquidity and we should expect within days to have the banks closed. Most of those present just laughed at this suggestion.

They really overestimated how much Europe is willing to go and bend its rules to keep Greece in the Euro. They overestimated the importance of Greece. Greece is important, but that doesn't mean you can pull off anything you want.

I can kind of respect a consistent "Fuck you" attitude, although I think that is the wrong approach. But when you start your relations with the Eurozone by letting your finance minister almost literally say "Fuck you, we don't work with the Troika anymore", and when you are very publicly gambling on blackmail-ish "We can do whatever we want, Europe won't dare to let us fall out of the Euro", you should be prepared to go all the way. Otherwise you'll just get fucked badly.

I also think that the political damage of the last months and weeks comes close to an actual fracturing of the Eurozone. I don't think that a Grexit would add much more to the damage that has already been done. Another thing that they, in my opinion, overlooked.

 

[Machspeed007]

Similar but not quite the same topic. But the Greece economic situation and the clusterfuck of European "unity" presently and in future (non unity basically), proves that Russia may have a point when it comes to how divided Europe really is.

The Greece issue is a big one no doubt, but is small fries compare to possible future Russian aggression and incursions into NATO countries. Imo I use the Greek example of future European loyalties and any substantial hardships/war/economic decline will absolutely make any current/future alliances between European countries fall like a deck of cards when the time comes.

Russia is certainly licking their lips at the moment.

I believe the opposite. An aggressive Russia would be a great unifying cause for Europe. I mean, how would the germans and french feel when polish and romanian soldiers would die trying to stop russians reaching Berlin?
I don't even feel comfortable talking about this fictitious scenario but whatever..

 

[oti]

The hashtag "it's Varoufaki's fault" is trending in Greece right now. As far as I can see it's used ironically. Like: "It's Varoufaki's fault that Tatiana can't get 1000€ out of the ATM for a shopping spree" and stuff like that.

 

[petran79]

This could very well be the stupidest commentary on the economy that I've read in 2 months, and that says a lot considering the number of uninformed uneducated people who chimed in with xenophobic stereotyping.
Immigrants draining "profits" away to their origin countries. Sigh.

this goes for Greece mostly where they hire immigrants illegaly to work on the fields and other jobs. Eg there were a lot of South Asian immigrants that worked in strawberry production, shut in houses like animals. When they're tried to protest because they werent paid, the farm owners shot them. Those poor souls work just barely enough to support their families at home, while giving the owners enormous and illegal profits.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Russia won't make gains through its military. Ukraine is an exception. For the other countries, it rellies on popular opposition to the EU, opposition to socially progressive politics, opposition to neoliberalism, and opposition to reduced or trade with Russia, and of course opposition to US/UK "interference".

Under the light, Russia has a lot of popularity in Europe, no matter how contradictory its sources may be (left and right).

 

[Gurgelhals]

The hashtag "it's Varoufaki's fault" is trending in Greece right now. As far as I can see it's used ironically. Like: "It's Varoufaki's fault that Tatiana can't get 1000€ out of the ATM for a shopping spree" and stuff like that.

So, at least the Greeks got something out of these negotiations: their own version of the "Thanks, Obama!" meme.

 

[oti]

So, at least the Greeks got something out of these negotiations: their own version of the "Thanks, Obama!" meme.

Worth it.

Spoiler

 

[Coriolanus]

Yeah, this deal will work wonderfully.

From the jacobin interview:

He thought this was the right mix to approach the issue, and what happens is that when you consistently follow this line you are led to a position in which you are left only with bad choices.

can't say that it doesn't paint an accurate picture.
--

Lawd in heaven, the idiot actually tried to throw Varoufakis under the bus. Somewhat understandable, but should produce interesting developments.

 

[Theonik]

I believe the opposite. An aggressive Russia would be a great unifying cause for Europe. I mean, how would the germans and french feel when polish and romanian soldiers would die trying to stop russians reaching Berlin?
I don't even feel comfortable talking about this fictitious scenario but whatever..

Russia will not go that far, not in a nuclear era. It is mutually assured destruction. They'll use salami tactics. Slice by slice.

 

[ramparter]

The hashtag "it's Varoufaki's fault" is trending in Greece right now. As far as I can see it's used ironically. Like: "It's Varoufaki's fault that Tatiana can't get 1000€ out of the ATM for a shopping spree" and stuff like that.

Lol. There are still people who actually believe it's all varoufakis fault which is naive and stupid but expected considering most people would rather die than think.

 

[FStop7]

The hashtag "it's Varoufaki's fault" is trending in Greece right now. As far as I can see it's used ironically. Like: "It's Varoufaki's fault that Tatiana can't get 1000€ out of the ATM for a shopping spree" and stuff like that.

So the Greek equivalent of "Thanks, Obama"

 

[oti]

I like the Tsipras interview a lot. I would like for Merkel to do the same. Many people here question whether another programme makes any sense (rightfully so) and all they got so far from the chancellor was "the advantages outweigh the disadvantages".

 

[ElTorro]

I like the Tsipras interview a lot. I would like for Merkel to do the same. Many people here question whether another programme makes any sense (rightfully so) and all they got so far from the chancellor was "the advantages outweigh the disadvantages".

Problem is that politicians like Merkel never talk straight unless they absolutely have to. They always manage to say as little as possible as vaguely as possible. An interview with Merkel would be a waste of time. Merkel's philosophy is to fly under the radar as much as possible, not to inform her citizens as best as she can.

 

[KingSnake]

I like the Tsipras interview a lot. I would like for Merkel to do the same. Many people here question whether another programme makes any sense (rightfully so) and all they got so far from the chancellor was "the advantages outweigh the disadvantages".

You want to hear the similar statement? " We don't trust Tsipras' government and there is no chance of getting all the debt back, but we're giving them another 86 billions, I really believe that maybe we will get some of these and some cheap ports back. "

 

[Machspeed007]

Under the light, Russia has a lot of popularity in Europe, no matter how contradictory its sources may be (left and right).

Not in eastern Europe. Maybe in France and other far away countries that didn't experience russian socialism 1st hand.

 

[Nander]

Under the light, Russia has a lot of popularity in Europe, no matter how contradictory its sources may be (left and right).

Oh yeah, lots and lots of popularity...

 

[Xenex]

Oh yeah, lots and lots of popularity...

Needs more light!!

 

[funkypie]

Shameful what is happening to Greece. Being forced to sell national assets to private corporations... Is this how it works? Gets a country in debt they are forced to sell off parts of their country.

 

[jorma]

They really overestimated how much Europe is willing to go and bend its rules to keep Greece in the Euro. They overestimated the importance of Greece. Greece is important, but that doesn't mean you can pull off anything you want.

Alternatively, they underestimated the lengths the rest of EZ would go to in order to teach them a lesson.

Some of them weren't even trying to hide the vindictive malice. "that's for your greek spring, lol".

 

[ElTorro]

Shameful what is happening to Greece. Being forced to sell national assets to private corporations... Is this how it works? Gets a country in debt they are forced to sell off parts of their country.

The problem is not that Greece has to deal with the consequences of having too much debt. The problem is that by bailing out the too-big-to-fail banks we turned a Greece-vs-Banks problem into a Greece-vs-Europe problem. Instead of fighting with the banks we are now fighting among the people.

 

[Frankfurter]

Greece is weird.

MacroPolis @MacroPolis_gr

Kapa Research for To Vima
If there is change to coalition, who should be PM?
Tsipras 68.1%
Another, widely accepted figure 22.6%


Kapa Research poll for To Vima
Should Parliament approve the Brussels agreement?
Yes 70.1%
No 25.3%

Kapa Research poll for To Vima
Who is to blame for tough measures?
European leaders 48.7%
Greek gov't 44.4%

That is... really weird.

 

[Theonik]

The problem is not that Greece has to deal with the consequences of having too much debt. The problem is that by bailing out the too-big-to-fail banks we turned a Greece-vs-Banks problem into a Greece-vs-Europe problem. Instead of fighting with the banks we are now fighting among the people.

I don't think that is strictly speaking a direct consequence of having too much debt. As you said if it was Greece vs the Banks it would never come to this. Actually the worst part of this approach is that these same bankers we allowed to go without paying the consequences of not doing their jobs are the same ones who are profiteering from this. While people are sitting here squabbling over petty shit and saying how much each side deserves whatever, the actual culprits of this situation are making more and more money. It's really sad.

That is... really weird.

Then you have the German polls showing people supporting a bailout but not trusting the Greek politicians. You tell me.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Oh yeah, lots and lots of popularity...

But look at France! Look at Italy! Look at Spain! The view of Russia has hit its trough. Popularity of Russia is increasing. Putin's approach is working.

Spoiler

#austeritylogic

 

[Frankfurter]

I don't think that is strictly speaking a direct consequence of having too much debt. As you said if it was Greece vs the Banks it would never come to this. Actually the worst part of this approach is that these same bankers we allowed to go without paying the consequences of not doing their jobs are the same ones who are profiteering from this. While people are sitting here squabbling over petty shit and saying how much each side deserves whatever, the actual culprits of this situation are making more and more money. It's really sad.


Then you have the German polls showing people supporting a bailout but not trusting the Greek politicians. You tell me.

Is that still the case? Afaik most recent polls showed a "Nope" in terms of more bailouts.

 

[Theonik]

Is that still the case? Afaik most recent polls showed a "Nope" in terms of more bailouts.

Posted yesterday. 52% in favour of new bailouts. 22% believe reforms will be implemented.
It's weird. Perhaps the European project still lives in its people, but definitely not in their leaders.

 

[pigeon]

That is... really weird.

Greeks don't want to leave the euro. They recognize that the EU is screwing them, but they'd rather be screwed then be on their own.

In general, they reject the bizarre narrative that Tsipras is responsible for the deal getting worse because he attempted to reject it, which is more or less the argument used by abusive spouses.

 

[Loona]

That is not true. Even failed politicians can make a a lot of money giving talks outside their own countries that probably never want to see their face again.
Even Papandreou and other failed Greek administrators still make loads this way!

That applies to countries the world at large actually gives a damn about - Portugal rarely seems to qualify, and is often forgotten as "next in line" in this whole mess compared to Spain, Italy or Ireland.

 

[petran79]

Shameful what is happening to Greece. Being forced to sell national assets to private corporations... Is this how it works? Gets a country in debt they are forced to sell off parts of their country.

A lot of Greek assets were already parts of foreign private corporations. Eg the main airport was build by a German company, main roads were build by the company of the owner of Real Madrid. No one complained back then.

Greeks also have invested a lot in the Balkans. Small companies, Greek Telephone Company (OTE), super markets, food companies, banks are also to be seen in Serbia, Bulgaria, FYROM, Romania etc

It is just that you leave the market regulate itself, not force the situation according to your whims.

 

[Uzzy]

The IMF are finally talking some sense.

Guardian are also reporting that the IMF is ready to walk away without debt relief.

 

[Hrothgar]

Will the IMF give Greece a reduction on the IMF debt?

 

[Coriolanus]

To clarify: if EU keeps pretending that this bullshit will work, IMF walks. Either put a massive debt relief on the table or no deal.

 

[2MF]

The IMF are finally talking some sense.



Guardian are also reporting that the IMF is ready to walk away without debt relief.

If the IMF did walk away, that could kill the whole deal or force the EU to pony up a bigger bailout. What a mess...

If you told me a few years ago that the IMF would be making more sense than the EU, I'd have laughed, but here we are!

 

[ElTorro]

Will the IMF give Greece a reduction on the IMF debt?

Of course not.

 

[Condom]

If the IMF did walk away, that could kill the whole deal or force the EU to pony up a bigger bailout. What a mess...

If you told me a few years ago that the IMF would be making more sense than the EU, I'd have laughed, but here we are!

It's a funny situation inside a humanitarian crisis

Anyway, I'm going out to protest against the troika in Amsterdam tomorrow, gonna be fun

 

[Theonik]

To clarify: if EU keeps pretending that this bullshit will work, IMF walks. Either put a massive debt relief on the table or no deal.

Perhaps this is the plan. The IMF will not play ball with the EU's silliness and the EU won't support the ESM bailout without the IMF. So it would mean that the EU gets a way out of this deal without making their hands dirty.

 

[Fenderputty]

To clarify: if EU keeps pretending that this bullshit will work, IMF walks. Either put a massive debt relief on the table or no deal.

HAHA wow. Fucking politicians.

 

[Coriolanus]

Perhaps this is the plan. The IMF will not play ball with the EU's silliness and the EU won't support the ESM bailout without the IMF. So it would mean that the EU gets a way out of this deal without making their hands dirty.

Would be inclined to agree, but the IMF's imposition is aimed at the creditors, and the insistence on the FMI being part of the deal is also the creditors, in which case, if the deal fails due to this, the blame will rest with... the creditors.

Plus, y'know, IMF is pretty much saying that everybody should've listened to the bald guy wot got axed, cuz he was the only one not denying the obvious.

Greece would be forced into an exit anyway so win win, really. Here's hoping that syriza splits on this report. Parliament vote will happen 0700am on wednesday iirc

 

[jakonovski]

Maybe this charade is finally collapsing under its own weight.

 

[Coriolanus]

Direct link to IMF's latest report.

Which, it bears reminding, the EU was already aware of before the current deal was closed.

 

[Uzzy]

Here's the full IMF analysis. Not pretty reading for Syriza, with the IMF saying that if agreed upon policies had been implemented in the past year, there wouldn't be a need for a new bailout. But moving foward, they're saying that debt will peak at 200% of GDP, the Eurogroup's proposals are unrealistic and that Greece needs proper debt relief.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Of course not.

They'd be quite right not to, as well. The IMF isn't culpable for the situation and has to be as fair as it was to all of the other indebted countries they've aided. This is a European problem.

 

[ElTorro]

Direct link to IMF's latest report.

Which, it bears reminding, the EU was already aware of before the current deal was closed.

Seems like all involved parties are dancing around the issue, trying to force the other party into their direction with silly political tricks. Tsipras tried it with the referendum and was surprised when the creditors doubled down. The creditors tried it with a hard deal and were surprised when Tsipras accepted it in the end.

 

[Negotiator]

LOL:

https://youtu.be/MqUWTJXGdbY?t=12

 

[LJ11]

IMF, this would have been nice a few months ago, but you kept shut for far too long. Complete 180 in the span of a couple of weeks, probably a bit too late but at least you're on record!

 

[Theonik]

IMF, this would have been nice a few months ago, but you kept shut for far too long. Complete 180 in the span of a couple of weeks, probably a bit too late but at least you're on record!

Actually if Varoufakis is to be believed the IMF has been convinced through the negotiations. As for why they might have not published reports for it. Well think of how much effort was put by EU leaders to redact these ones.

 

[Fenderputty]

well ... that's and interesting take lol

 

[LJ11]

As YV pointed out IMF were duplicitous throughout, saying one thing and doing another. Regardless, this would have been helpful a few months ago, they would have been caught in the middle, but I'm not sure how coming out now helps matters. Its a face saving move.

 

[Coriolanus]

As YV pointed out IMF were duplicitous throughout, saying one thing and doing another. Regardless, this would have been helpful a few months ago, they would have been caught in the middle, but I'm not sure how coming out now helps matters. Its a face saving move.

Coming out now, while later than desired, can prevent Greece and the EU from closing the deal. As for why the IMF would release this now... i dunno, guess they see that if they let this thing go on ahead, then their prospects of getting their moolah back are considerably worsened.

On top of that saving face deal, obv.