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[True Savior]

You assume Podemos is going to govern Spain.

Votes will naturally swing within time in Europe. It's a matter of time until this lunacy that has put Europe in the sewer stop. That in 2015 they want to follow the same thing , tells me everything i need to know about some of these people. These are war criminals pushing against europe populace in favor of something else.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Alco institute says 57 percent of Greeks would vote "Yes" in a referendum, 29 percent for "No".

And then it will be quite funny when the Troika rejects Greece's acceptance of the proposal. They will start saying clearly that they reject it because they don't trust the Greek government "anymore"' and looking for any excuse to reject the acceptance of the proposal. They are shoveling forward without realizing it. They are going to make complete fools of themselves publicly.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

They weren't clear at all. The first time they submitted a comprehensive proposal was just a few days ago.

And what do you mean by 'blocked'? Are you suggesting that a single country can impose their opinion on the rest of the Eurozone by just ignoring the demands of the 18 other states who lend the money, including those states who have weaker economies than Greece, or who have implemented similar programs successfully?

All 19 states in the Eurozone have democratic mandates, and just because a single country says that it made unilateral election promises and got their people's votes, that does not give them the right to assume that the other governments have to accept it without having any say in it.

Aren't they a sovereing country or did I miss something? Why they should hear the demands of the other 18 countries when those countries clearly don't care greece people are basically dying of poverty (25% of the country)?

They are basically stealing Greece sovereign in the face of not giving them money if the don't keep the farce of the austerity that is clearly not working and haven worked for years, actually made things much worse.

Theres just much shit you can throw to a country until says enough is enough.

 

[Osiris]

And then it will be quite funny when the Troika rejects Greece's acceptance of the proposal. They will start saying clearly that they reject it because they don't trust the Greek government "anymore"' looking for any excuse to reject the acceptance of the proposal. They are shoveling forward without realizing it.

As the referendum will be after the deal is already off the table due to having missed the June 30th deadline, there won't be anything to reject.

 

[GasProblem]

Theres nothing to vote for because theres no agreed package.

 

[ElTorro]

And Syriza not accepting their people resolution is fan fiction and this point, they are a democratic party and they said numerous times they will respect the decision.

Right, because Greek governments, including Syriza, have a good track record in keeping promises and getting things done. Syriza has done nothing in the past months. They have gotten nothing done. There is no reason to trust their competence.

For instance, it is completely baffling to me that Syriza hasn't done anything to replace parts of the pension system with a social security system that grants each Greek the minimum amount of money necessary to survive. Currently, pensions are used to sustain entire families since there is no other social security net to do the job. Any truly social-democratic/left-wing government would have made this its top priority. And no Eurozone government would have the support of its people to cut a minimum social security system. Yet, Syriza has done nothing but propose to keep the old, ineffective, and unfair pension system. There is just no detectable willingness to meaningfully reform the state.

 

[Tacitus_]

What absolute clowns in the greek government.

 

[elrechazado]

Aren't they a sovereing country or did I miss something? Why they should hear the demands of the other 18 countries when those countries clearly don't care greece people are basically dying of poverty (25% of the country)?

They are basically stealing Greece sovereign in the face of not giving them money if the don't keep the farce of the austerity that is clearly not working and haven worked for years, actually made things much worse.

Theres just much shit you can throw to a country until says enough is enough.

If Greece wants sovereignty on those terms then they can leave the eu and never take loans in the first place. You can't eat your cake and have it too.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Right, because Greek governments, including Syriza, have a good track record in keeping promises and getting things done. Syriza has done nothing in the past months. They have gotten nothing done. There is no reason to trust their competence.

For instance, it is completely baffling to me that Syriza hasn't done anything to replace parts of the pension system with a social security system that grants each Greek the minimum amount of money necessary to survive. Currently, pensions are used to sustain entire families since there is no other social security net to do the job. Any truly social-democratic/left-wing government would have made this its top priority. And no Eurozone government would have the support of its people to cut a minimum social security system. Yet, Syriza has done nothing but propose to keep the old, ineffective, and unfair pension system. There is just no detectable willingness to meaningfully reform the state.

They haven't done nothing because they didn't let them or basically they didnt have time to do anything.

And the pension system is one of the basic pillars of the welfare system, are you implying they should break the welfare system and go for a neoliberal extreme approach? the fuck...

 

[ClosingADoor]

Aren't they a sovereing country or did I miss something? Why they should hear the demands of the other 18 countries when those countries clearly don't care greece people are basically dying of poverty (25% of the country)?

They are basically stealing Greece sovereign in the face of not giving them money if the don't keep the farce of the austerity that is clearly not working and haven worked for years, actually made things much worse.

Theres just much shit you can throw to a country until says enough is enough.

Because those 18 other countries are lending them money that they need? Those countries are taking on the risk of not being paid back. That is also money backed by the tax payers of those countries that do not like their money being thrown away.

 

[ElTorro]

Aren't they a sovereing country or did I miss something? Why they should hear the demands of the other 18 countries when those countries clearly don't care greece people are basically dying of poverty (25% of the country)?

They are basically stealing Greece sovereign in the face of not giving them money if the don't keep the farce of the austerity that is clearly not working and haven worked for years, actually made things much worse.

Theres just much shit you can throw to a country until says enough is enough.

They are a sovereign country. And that's why they are free to leave the Euro and not get any more money. Nobody ever forced Greece to take any money or let anyone interfere with their politics. That's their right. But then again, no other Eurozone state has to lend them any money that the markets aren't willing to give them since 2009. That's everybody's free choice, but it's also the shitty thing to do for all people involved.

 

[ICKE]

I wonder how much capital has been wasted after Syriza won the election. There was some (albeit slight) economic growth last year and the forecasts were somewhat optimistic.

Now we are looking at a possible bank run and a collapse of the local banking sector. Other Member States are also becoming increasingly disillusioned with Greece. Was it all worth it just to send a message to foreign bureaucrats? There have been no substantive reforms and the administration is still a mess.

The way I see it, this has been an exercise in futility.

 

[Savitar]

Too big to fail.

Seems everything has it's limits after all eh.

 

[Neo C.]

The referendum is to give voice to the people of your country.

That's fine and all, but the implementation is really dishonest. In Switzerland, a referendum doesn't just pop up, it takes lots of time for actually calling a referendum and it takes lots of time again for the actual vote. That amount of time is necessary for serious debates and going through the arguments.

If I were Greek, I seriously wouldn't know how to make an educated vote given by these circumstances. This is a joke of a democracy.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Because those 18 other countries are lending them money that they need? Those countries are taking on the risk of not being paid back. That is also money backed by the tax payers of those countries that do not like their money being thrown away.

EU is suposed, and have been doing all these years, to give lots of money to support the economic growth of the weaker economies, without expecting any in return...

I wonder how much capital has been wasted after Syriza won the election. There was some (albeit slight) economic growth last year and the forecasts were somewhat optimistic.

Now we are looking at a possible bank run and a collapse of the local banking sector. Other Member States are also becoming increasingly disillusioned with Greece. Was it all worth it just to send a message to foreign bureaucrats? There have been no substantive reforms and the administration is still a mess.

The way I see it, this has been an exercise in futility.

Basically side-effects of the EU growth, the actual Greek economy is broken beyond salvation if the auesterty keeps it's choke.

 

[Fxp]

They haven't done nothing because they didn't let them or basically they didnt have time to do anything.

And the pension system is one of the basic pillars of the welfare system, are you implying they should break the welfare system and go for a neoliberal extreme approach? the fuck...

They haven't done anything because they're cheap populist party. Nobody's talking about breaking social system but fixing bloated social expenses. Other EU countries spend what they earn, learn from that.

 

[True Savior]

I wonder how much capital has been wasted after Syriza won the election. There was some (albeit slight) economic growth last year and the forecasts were somewhat optimistic.

Now we are looking at a possible bank run and a collapse of the local banking sector. Other Member States are also becoming increasingly disillusioned with Greece. Was it all worth it just to send a message to foreign bureaucrats? There have been no substantive reforms and the administration is still a mess.

The way I see it, this has been an exercise in futility.

They were given two crumbs for lunch instead of one. They don't want crumbs. They want their dignity.

To call futility a fight for better conditions for citizens is incredible sad to me to read it.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

They haven't done anything because they're cheap populist party. Nobody's talking about breaking social system but fixing bloated social expenses. Other EU countries spend what they earn, learn from that.

After years of cuts and more cuts how the fuck can we keep blaming social expenses? They have been under FMI guidance for years and they are worst than ever....

 

[Lalalandia]

If you are never getting a decent proposal, do you forever keep trying, or eventually give the people a chance to vote on it? If you do the later, must you pretend you are in favor of it? You're not making sense, think about the actual situation; at some point they would have given the population a referendum on a proposal, should they have waited forever (when they can't), for a good proposal that never comes?

The people have in many ways already voted on austerity at the last election when they selected a party that explicitly rejected both it and the debt itself. If Syriza was serious about returning to the people to say 'We did our best and failed but do you want this?' then they would have prepared the ground long before now. As it is this looks like an attempt to get another month of time in the hope that love of the 'EU project' would result in a political deal that dumps the IMF and just pours in cash instead.

For me it all boils down to 'you can't make people lend you money' for all the pain the cuts in Ireland have caused we've chosen a government that has implemented it because we know we run a primary deficit budget. We had a choice between taking cuts while still overspending to soften the blow (ie the 'troika') or rejecting them and having to implement deeper, far more damaging cuts with no loans to soften the blow. Syriza has consistently pretended to their electorate that there is a third way that involves somehow lecturing everyone into going 'Oh OK then' and returning to pretending that it's 2007.

 

[wsippel]

And then it will be quite funny when the Troika rejects Greece's acceptance of the proposal. They will start saying clearly that they reject it because they don't trust the Greek government "anymore"' and looking for any excuse to reject the acceptance of the proposal. They are shoveling forward without realizing it. They are going to make complete fools of themselves publicly.

My guess: There won't be a referendum. Tsipras will lose the vote of no confidence, his successor will accept any demands, Greece stays in the EU and keeps the Euro and that will be it. I'm sure the opposition in Athen is already in talks with EU leaders. This is the true "plan B".

 

[ClosingADoor]

EU is suposed, and have been doing all these years, to give lots of money to support the economic growth of the weaker economies, without expecting any in return...

No, those are totally different programs. Based on your countries income and such, you give money to the EU and that is distributed to other countries to fund farmers, infrastructure, research and other things. That money is not there to just use however those countries see fit.

The expectation is that those investments will create a return later on, because they help built the economies of those countries. Some Eastern European states are good examples for this and how they have grown over the years.

That money is not meant to just fill your budget deficit.

 

[ElTorro]

EU is suposed, and have been doing all these years, to give lots of money to support the economic growth of the weaker economies, without expecting any in return...

The EU did give Greece unconditional money. It's important not to conflate the money lent by the Institutions in order to solve Greece's debt problem with the money given by the EU to support Greece's economy. These are two different things. The job of the Eurozone is not to transfer money to help weaker economies. That job is already taken by the European Commission and funded by their budget. And Greece has gotten more money than anyone else, not only since 2010.

Part of my anger with the Greek government is how effectively they are using rhetoric to put themselves in the position of the victim by actively playing with such impressions.

 

[PdotMichael]

EU is suposed, and have been doing all these years, to give lots of money to support the economic growth of the weaker economies, without expecting any in return...



Basically side-effects of the EU growth, the actual Greek economy is broken beyond salvation if the auesterty keeps it's choke.

Well, that's a way of handle something that would kill the own arguments.

It was a wrong growth! Better killing it and wait that all the planned reforms lead to a booming economy.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Well, that's a way of handle something that would kill the own arguments.

It was a wrong growth! Better killing it and wait that all the planned reforms lead to a booming economy.

It's not wrong growth, I'm saying that it not like is having any particular real effect on the Greek economy...

 

[Zeekaas]

The Greek had it coming, they should have swallowd those bitter pills and make big reforms. The ongoing corruption, tax evasion, over the top social system etc etc. Instead they wanted to keep their status quo. All other members in the Eurogroup did make (painfull) reforms (some more than others) and got there shit together.

 

[True Savior]

The Greek had it coming, they should have swallowd those bitter pills and make big reforms. The ongoing corruption, tax evasion, over the top social system etc etc. Instead they wanted to keep their status quo. All other members in the Eurogroup did make (painfull) reforms (some more than others) and got there shit together.

I'm from Portugal and its offensive that you say we got our shit together. Like its insane anyone would write anything like that. No idea regarding the major suffering that people have gone through with horrific results in terms of expenditure and debt. Austerity was so bad that the greatest impact decisions that helped us was our Constitutional law forbidding some of those austerity decisions.

 

[Fxp]

The Greek had it coming, they should have swallowd those bitter pills and make big reforms. The ongoing corruption, tax evasion, over the top social system etc etc. Instead they wanted to keep their status quo. All other members in the Eurogroup did make (painfull) reforms (some more than others) and got there shit together.

Exactly, we in Latvia was in deep shit and swallowed the bitter pill and overcome most of the problems. Time for Greeks to step up their game.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Exactly, we in Latvia was in deep shit and swallowed the bitter pill and overcome most of the problems. Time for Greeks to step up their game.

They have been swallowing pills for years and is not working.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

They have been swallowing pills for years and is not working.

They need to drink some water to help them go down.

 

[Rawket Lawnchair]

The French Finance Minister says that for France, Greece is always invited to restart the talks, before, at, or after June 30th.

Another problem EU and EZ now face: if they kick Greece out, then the EU immediately proves it is not a serious body, but a collection of cliques between countries collaborating for their own benefit. This lack of credibility will surely affect EU bonds.

 

[Fxp]

They have been swallowing pills for years and is not working.

So stop blaming anyone else and default, build your dream country from scratch with glorious leader Tsipras. Stop bullshitting other EU countries, especially Germany.

 

[MonorailCat]

They have been swallowing pills for years and is not working.

But not where it counts: tax evasion and overpaid government worker/pensions which were mostly assigned due to corruption and nepotism.
Instead they piled it on the already poor working class.

And blaming it all on EU and Germany is unfair. Both would have been thrilled about about (real!) plans tackling the tax evasion and fraud and corruption. But it just didn't happen.

 

[PdotMichael]

It's not wrong growth, I'm saying that it not like is having any particular real effect on the Greek economy...

You are repeating your earlier post. Why was the 2014 growth and policy not a good thing?

But at least we can say that Tsipras had a very real effect on the Greek economy.

 

[Fxp]

They have been swallowing pills for years and is not working.

If you don't earn enough to pay inflated salaries and pensions, cut them. Or go burn EU and Germany flags (that doesn't help, though). I can make such posters for my country as well after 2008 crisis

 

[jakonovski]

The French Finance Minister says that for France, Greece is always invited to restart the talks, before, at, or after June 30th.

Another problem EU and EZ now face: if they kick Greece out, then the EU immediately proves it is not a serious body, but a collection of cliques between countries collaborating for their own benefit. This lack of credibility will surely affect EU bonds.

Well, it's the truth. The EU sucks because nobody is willing to do anything for the common good. And that's why it will inevitably fail. Greece just hastened the process.

edit: ironically ,the GDP reduction from the austerity is pretty much equal to the debt. Just goes to show what a travesty all this is.

 

[PdotMichael]

If you don't earn enough to pay inflated salaries and pensions, cut them. Or go burn EU and Germany flags (that doesn't help, though).

It would if they would produce the flags and wouldn't import them from Turkey or China.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

So stop blaming anyone else and default, build your dream country from scratch with glorious leader Tsipras. Stop bullshitting other EU countries, especially Germany.

Maybe...and just maybe, austerity is not the solution and there are other solutions that could work and the EU should look to those solutions instead of making it a politic matter, which is what it is: trying to avoid that other countries to fall into left parties.

You are repeating your earlier post. Why was the 2014 growth and policy not a good thing?

But at least we can say that Tsipras had a very real effect on the Greek economy.

Look at the image posted above

 

[Man God]

The French Finance Minister says that for France, Greece is always invited to restart the talks, before, at, or after June 30th.

Another problem EU and EZ now face: if they kick Greece out, then the EU immediately proves it is not a serious body, but a collection of cliques between countries collaborating for their own benefit. This lack of credibility will surely affect EU bonds.

It'll also give the UK a decent excuse to get out of it.

 

[Coriolanus]

If you don't earn enough to pay inflated salaries and pensions, cut them. Or go burn EU and Germany flags (that doesn't help, though).

Greece already has one of the lowest wages in Europe.

And as the other graphic showed, they also already cut pensions.

It didn't help.

Keep moving the goalposts, tho.

Also you shouldn't be proud of latvia. Your situation is shit compared to where you were pre-crisis, despite all the horrors your country went through. Still better than greece, tho.

 

[Prime crotch]

So stop blaming anyone else and default, build your dream country from scratch with glorious leader Tsipras. Stop bullshitting other EU countries, especially Germany.

How quickly people forget of their own transgressions. Not to mention how most countries actually got over their own economical crisis.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

If you don't earn enough to pay inflated salaries and pensions, cut them. Or go burn EU and Germany flags (that doesn't help, though). I can make such posters for my country as well after 2008 crisis

38% salary and 45% pension reduction -> calls it inflated.

 

[Lalalandia]

The French Finance Minister says that for France, Greece is always invited to restart the talks, before, at, or after June 30th.

Another problem EU and EZ now face: if they kick Greece out, then the EU immediately proves it is not a serious body, but a collection of cliques between countries collaborating for their own benefit. This lack of credibility will surely affect EU bonds.

For the bond markets 'EU Bonds = German Bonds' they cared not a fiddlers who else was in the Euro part of the bond. Part of the reason everyone got into this mess is the absurdly low interest rates all euro denominated debt attracted and how it encouraged bad governments, like we had in Ireland, to issue the stuff like it was going out of fashion. The market presumed it had de facto German backing and now that the German government and people are saying 'nope' we are all dealing with the pricing whiplash.

Euro bonds (as in a debt issued by the EU itself) were always regarded as a pipe dream and now that Germany has seen what even the implicitly backed euro denominated debt has done and cost them they'll never go for it.

 

[Prime crotch]

You know what also not helps an already existing pension problem? The contraction of the fuckin economy due to austerity measures.

 

[Wafflecakes]

You know what also not helps an already existing pension problem? The contraction of the fuckin economy due to austerity measures.

When you base your entire economy on borrowed money, you then cannot act shocked that without borrowing more money it contracts.

 

[Fxp]

Greece already has one of the lowest wages in Europe.

And as the other graphic showed, they also already cut pensions.

It didn't help.

Keep moving the goalposts, tho.

Also you shouldn't be proud of latvia. Your situation is shit compared to where you were pre-crisis, despite all the horrors your country went through. Still better than greece, tho.

Not many years have passed and we're on right track. And our GDP is the same we had in 2008.

 

[MonorailCat]

You know what also not helps an already existing pension problem? The contraction of the fuckin economy due to austerity measures.

Investing more money in a state that has a spending problem and can't even collect taxes properly. Yep, sounds like the route to success.

 

[Coriolanus]

When you base your entire economy on borrowed money, you then cannot act shocked that without borrowing more money it contracts.

Might as well rephrase to "when you give up monetary sovereignty, shit can bite you in the ass hard".

Not many years have passed and we're on right track. And our GDP is the same we had in 2008.

With higher unemployment, higher debt to gdp and lower YoY growth. Yay austerity!

 

[PdotMichael]

Greece already has one of the lowest wages in Europe.

Your link doesn't support your claim.

Look at the image posted above

And how is that related to the positive GDP growth data in 2014?

 

[Condom]

Yes, of course. 'They', 'people', 'you'. Must be nice to be far removed from reality to think an economic collapse will not touch you. It's disgusting to wish for the destruction of so many lives.

It will touch me, I'm not delusional. I don't see myself having a future already with the way things are going in Europe.

I simply don't care for a band-aid fix if people remain the way they are.

 

[LJ11]

Thread was alright for a while, now it's turning into a shit show.