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[ICKE]

The only reason the deal is off the tables is because they pulled it off since Syriza called for a referendum. Syriza can then just say: hey, here, we accept that deal, put it back on the table so we can sign it. Of course, they'll refuse to put it back.

What do you expect. It's like trying to negotiate with a loon. The current Greek government is constantly flip flopping and engaging in these pointless shenanigans.

There is constant drama. Last week a proposal was sent to Germany and then it was apparently a wrong version or some such.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

It is true that most of the money from ESM went to other banks. You could draw a comparison such as : Your family member takes a huge house loan and is unable to make his mortgage payments. You then decide to step in and pay the original debtee/investor his money and then your relative continues his payments (below market interest) while you demand some budgetary adjustments.

It's more complicated than this, though. Greece isn't a person or an individual. It's a series of governments composed of very many different people and voted for by very many different people. In the family analogy, you're talking about a single family member, and you can trace a full and complete line of causal responsibility. You can't do this with Greece - why is Tsipras responsible for Samaras? Why are people who didn't vote for Samaras responsible for Samaras? These are big and important questions when you consider the consequences. We're talking about a drop in GDP of over a quarter; disproportionately falling on those from poorer backgrounds and those freshly coming out of education.

Why is that a bright young Greek kid who has worked hard, is pretty smart, and should have a lot of opportunities to look forward to in life is bearing the consequences of the decisions of a government elected in 2000 (PASOK) that barely even exists any more because of how much it was routed? Why do you have families who are forced to rely on food banks because a particular set of politicians did something wrong and hid it for as long as possible from the Greek people (see: Lehman Bros), and when found out were promptly forced out of office?

In that respect I do think it is pretty comparable to a predatory pay-day lender, because while governments take the loans, people pay for them. All it takes is one or two shitty administrations, that may not have been obviously shitty at the time of an election, and lenders can offer terrible terms that trap a country and drag it to its knees.

 

[Sephiroth503]

Isn't the deal off because they won't sign up to it in time?

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

There are homeless people in every city, or is the juxtaposition of a sleeping homeless man next to people taking money out of an ATM supposed to evoke specific emotions/thoughts?

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

What do you expect. It's like trying to negotiate with a loon. The current Greek government is constantly flip flopping and engages in these pointless shenanigans.

They've been quite clear since the day they won it what they want, but of course, accepting more lenient terms and letting them do their own economic programs will mean that austerity is a farce and will put several rightwing parties against the walls in the next elections, something the current EU leaders don't want to happen. EU thought they could keep shoveling their ideas and choke Greece and the current goverment, and that they wouldn't take a meassure like that. Well they were wrong.

If you can see the whole situation dosn't have a more than a considerable political paint instead of an economic one, I don't know what to say.

 

[Ether_Snake]

My guess: There won't be a referendum. Tsipras will lose the vote of no confidence, his successor will accept any demands, Greece stays in the EU and keeps the Euro and that will be it. I'm sure the opposition in Athen is already in talks with EU leaders. This is the true "plan B".

Tsipras knows that if they agreed to a proposal, the other side would push to make them not agree to it, unless it was unpopular. So the referendum will happen, and people will vote yes, and Tsipras will then say: look, they are disingenuous, even when we accept their proposals and ask them to put them back, they come back with either no proposal or an even worst one.

At some point, you'll have the population asking out, not asking for elections to get reamed by another party.

 

[Prime crotch]

In that respect I do think it is pretty comparable to a predatory pay-day lender, because while governments take the loans, people pay for them. All it takes is one or two shitty administrations, that may not have been obviously shitty at the time of an election, and lenders can offer terrible terms that trap a country and drag it to its knees.

The difference is that they are moved by a ideology and self righteousness, which makes them far more dangerous than the average loan shark

 

[ICKE]

It's more complicated than this, though. Greece isn't a person or an individual. It's a series of governments composed of very many different people and voted for by very many different people. In the family analogy, you're talking about a single family member, and you can trace a full and complete line of causal responsibility. You can't do this with Greece - why is Tsipras responsible for Samaras? Why are people who didn't vote for Samaras responsible for Samaras?.

That is a fair point of course.

But the thing is that we can't have long lasting prosperous relations if newly elected governments do not have to respect earlier agreements or are not held responsible for them. With Greece we are constantly witnessing seismic shifts, because their parliamentary system gives a simple majority to a party that receives ~35% of the vote. In these conditions populism will always thrive as opposition parties demand reforms and give promises.

Other Member States also have their own electorates and economic issues. It is frustrating to deal with Syriza, because they are unpredictable. Today Varoufakis might give sensible statements but tomorrow he is probably on RT with conspiracy esque talking points.

 

[Xando]

Isn't the deal off because they won't sign up to it in time?

Pretty much. Program runs out on tuesday, tsipras knew that since feb but suddenly decided he has to set up a referendum 5 days before the deadline.

 

[ElTorro]

Pretty much. Program runs out on tuesday, tsipras knew that since feb but suddenly decided he has to set up a referendum 5 days before the deadline.

Funny thing is that nobody even knows what the referendum will be about. We haven't even a finalized proposal on the table, only drafts that neither Greece nor the institutions have decisively agreed on.

 

[Tugatrix]

Why are the media selling these doomsday scenarios? look greece represente 2% of eurozone economy so the effect will be minimal, for the greece they will have some though months after changing to their own currency but like Argentina their economy will sort itself out, remember defaults are no new thing, it has happen countless times before

 

[Ether_Snake]

Pretty much. Program runs out on tuesday, tsipras knew that since feb but suddenly decided he has to set up a referendum 5 days before the deadline.

So? Why can't they extend it for a few days? People will vote on the damn thing and they said if the people vote yes they sign it. Heck, this is the closest we have been to a deal. No wonder the Troika pulls it back off the table once Greece reaches for it though. They want Greek people to be against their government, that's all they are thinking about. Now they are watching, hoping there will be some sort of political collapse. The Troika wants someone else in power, that's all these fake negotiations are for.

This is a chart the Troika will be paying close attention to: Podemos in purple, voter intentions

 

[Deleted member 231381]

That is a fair point of course.

But the thing is that we can't have prosperous relations if newly elected governments are not held responsible for earlier agreements. And this is the problem with Greece. We are constantly witnessing seismic shifts, because their parliamentary system gives a majority to a party that receives ~35% of the vote. In these conditions populism will always thrive.

So, I don't disagree with this completely; I think it's pretty obvious by now there are some deep structural problems with the Greek state. However, there are two even more obvious things. Firstly, while we talk about these things, people's lives are quite literally being destroyed. Homelessness has soared, children are pulled out of school because parents don't want to pay fuel costs for travel, suicide rates have nearly tripled, island communities are abandoned, there's mass emigration. It's all very well and done to have a neat discussion about what responsibilities governments are having, but while we're having those conversations from the comfort of our living rooms, Greece is in a state that most European countries haven't been in since the immediate aftermath of the second world war. From a purely moral perspective, they need our support.

Second, even supposing that this wasn't true, how on earth is the Greek state actually supposed to roll out reforms? Reforms cost money and take time. If the tax-collection system is corrupt, it's not a matter of sending out emails saying "plz stop being corrupt thx Tsipras". You have to essentially gut all of your existing personel and train new ones, taking on all of the new training costs and old severance packages, in an overhaul that could take at least half a decade. Greece doesn't have that money when it is forced to run a 3% primary surplus (something that, e.g., America has never run in the entire fiscal history of the United States), and when the tax intakes you need to pay for the tax reforms get lower year on year because the economy gets worse and worse because people are terrified of spending any penny they get. Yes, reforms need to happen. They cannot possibly happen now, or on the timescale demanded by the IMF.

If you are genuinely serious about making Greece a productive member of the European economy, then you should be committed to bailing them out right now. If you think it is not possible, you should be letting them go peacefully and with the support necessary to make sure they do not collapse completely. You should not be fucking around with demands that cannot (emphasis: cannot) be met.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Why are the media selling these doomsday scenarios? look greece represente 2% of eurozone economy so the effect will be minimal, for the greece they will have some though months after changing to their own currency but like Argentina they economy will sort itself out, remember defaults are no new thing, it has happen countless times before

The Euro will be very damaged, because markets won't trust the currency. And the Eurozone will be deeply hurt too for it.

Euro is dead after this. Good job,Dijsselbloem!

 

[Yamauchi]

http://www.theguardian.com/business...ministers-live#block-558ee23ae4b0c9bda8d8a950

Helena Smith our correspondent writes:
Courtesy of Mega News we are now learning that Tsipras’ chat with both leaders was far from cordial. The Greek prime minister, responding to Merkel’s protestations that the referendum would ultimately boil down to a choice “between the euro and drachma” is reported to have said:

“No it isn’t.

This is the birthplace of democracy. We are a sovereign country and will not be told what question to pose in this referendum. The referendum will take place regardless of whatever the decision the Eurogroup takes.”

---

Boom, headshot.

 

[Prime crotch]

Why are the media selling these doomsday scenarios? look greece represente 2% of eurozone economy so the effect will be minimal, for the greece they will have some though months after changing to their own currency but like Argentina they economy will sort itself out, remember defaults are no new thing, it has happen countless times before

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1682&v=in5M65566iw

 

[Negotiator]

The Euro will be very damaged, because markets won't trust the currency. And the Eurozone will be deeply hurt too for it.

Euro is dead after this. Good job,Dijsselbloem!

So, the euro will become weaker than the dollar this Monday?

 

[PdotMichael]

Why are the media selling these doomsday scenarios? look greece represente 2% of eurozone economy so the effect will be minimal, for the greece they will have some though months after changing to their own currency but like Argentina they economy will sort itself out, remember defaults are no new thing, it has happen countless times before

Because it helps to sell the deals.

The Euro doesn't get less trustworthy because of the recent events. It's not that the actual results should surprise anyone in the "markets". In fact the Euro got even stronger in the last weeks.

 

[Coriolanus]

So, the euro will become weaker than the dollar this Monday?

Good news for Germany!

#conspiracytheory

If you are genuinely serious about making Greece a productive member of the European economy, then you should be committed to bailing them out right now. If you think it is not possible, you should be letting them go peacefully and with the support necessary to make sure they do not collapse completely. You should not be fucking around with demands that cannot (emphasis: cannot) be met.

It's a bit worse than that though, isn't it, Crab? You're fucking around with demands that you know cannot be met.

 

[ICKE]

Second, even supposing that this wasn't true, how on earth is the Greek state actually supposed to roll out reforms? Reforms cost money and take time. If the tax-collection system is corrupt, it's not a matter of sending out emails saying "plz stop being corrupt thx Tsipras". You have to essentially gut all of your existing personel and train new ones, taking on all of the new training costs and old severance packages, in an overhaul that could take at least half a decade. Greece doesn't have that money when it is forced to run a 3% primary surplus (something that, e.g., America has never run in the entire fiscal history of the United States), and when the tax intakes you need to pay for the tax reforms get lower year on year because the economy gets worse and worse because people are terrified of spending any penny they get. Yes, reforms need to happen. They cannot possibly happen now, or on the timescale demanded by the IMF..

It is not only an administrative issue either. Tax evasion is endemic in Greek culture (no one really likes to pay taxes) and perhaps one aspect of it dates back to Ottoman rule when people were not willing to pay money to a government they did not really recognize.

This situation is a combination of many things and blaming normal people is not really going to do anything. But same logic applies to ECB as it is the only thing keeping the local banking sector from collapsing. And other Member States are the reason why Greece has been able to pay below market interest rates (even if harsh austerity measures have been demanded).

 

[Irminsul]

So? Why can't they extend it for a few days? People will vote on the damn thing and they said if the people vote yes they sign it. Heck, this is the closest we have been to a deal. No wonder the Troika pulls it back off the table once Greece reaches for it though. They want Greek people to be against their government, that's all they are thinking about. Now they are watching, hoping there will be some sort of political collapse. The Troika wants someone else in power, that's all these fake negotiations are for.

Okay, please explain to me on what exactly the Greece populace is supposed to vote. Be specific.

Because there isn't any ready-to-sign document or something.

 

[Xando]

So? Why can't they extend it for a few days? People will vote on the damn thing and they said if the people vote yes they sign it. Heck, this is the closest we have been to a deal. No wonder the Troika pulls it back off the table once Greece reaches for it though. They want Greek people to be against their government, that's all they are thinking about. Now they are watching, hoping there will be some sort of political collapse. The Troika wants someone else in power, that's all these fake negotiations are for.

This is a chart the Troika will be paying close attention to: Podemos in purple, voter intentions

So basically continue the endless program extension loop is what you are proposing?
Greece needs to get a debt cut (which they never will because that would be political suicide for every northern european politician) or they need to devalue their currency to get competitive again.

If Tsipras would be all about letting the Greek people decide he would have held a referendum in feb when the last program extension was.

 

[ElTorro]

Okay, please explain to me on what exactly the Greece populace is supposed to vote. Be specific.

Because there isn't any ready-to-sign document or something.

Even if one generally supports left parties, I fail to see how one can defend Syriza's amateurish behavior over the last months in general and the last days in particular. They have also shot themselves in the foot.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

It is not only an administrative issue either. Tax evasion is endemic in Greek culture and perhaps one aspect of it dates back to Ottoman rule when people were not willing to pay money to a government they did not really recognize.

Yes, but again, this is not something you can fix right now. If it's a cultural thing, then it'll take even longer than the half-decade required for most fiscal reforms. That sort of things requires education drives at a school level, name and shame programmes, complete retraining of the taxation branch of government to be able to deal with obstinate communities, and so on.

Do you really think the problem is that Tsipras is going "lelz, tax avoidance, idgaf"? No, of course not. He knows tax avoidance is a problem. He submitted a proposal to the Eurogroup which was going to be funded approximately 83% by raised tax revenues, which in itself is basically a requirement to tackle corruption. However, there was simply no chance that this could possibly be implemented on the kind of time scale that creditors like the IMF want. Hence, they rejected it and asked for more of the repayments to be met with spending cuts - the very spending cuts that damage the ability of the Greek government to cope with reforming the taxation system and cultural attitudes towards taxation to begin with.

 

[Coriolanus]

Okay, please explain to me on what exactly the Greece populace is supposed to vote. Be specific.

Because there isn't any ready-to-sign document or something.

On whatever is the thing that the Eurogroup put in front of Tsipras that made him go ballistic.

At least according to his speech today.

Mind, that's the same thing that Djesmbnlsj promptly said right after that could still be changed.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

It's a bit worse than that though, isn't it, Crab? You're fucking around with demands that you know cannot be met.

Precisely. It's little wonder Tsipras called a referendum; if I were in his place I'd have had it up to here with, particularly, the IMF too.

 

[Yamauchi]

Why are the media selling these doomsday scenarios? look greece represente 2% of eurozone economy so the effect will be minimal, for the greece they will have some though months after changing to their own currency but like Argentina their economy will sort itself out, remember defaults are no new thing, it has happen countless times before

The media is doing this because from the beginning there has been an intense propaganda campaign against Greece -- the whole damn thing has been a sham meant to overthrow the elected government of Greece and replace it with EU-approved 'technocrat.' The Troika mafia know that if they have to listen to the democratic will of the Greek people, Italy and Spain will be next, and they won't be able to demonize or bully either one of those quite so easily. Now that the Troika has lost, they're making sure Greece is punished severely.

 

[Prime crotch]

Greece's unsustainable debt was not caused by tax avoidance, that's a damn droplet on the ocean.

 

[petran79]

Why are the media selling these doomsday scenarios? look greece represente 2% of eurozone economy so the effect will be minimal, for the greece they will have some though months after changing to their own currency but like Argentina their economy will sort itself out, remember defaults are no new thing, it has happen countless times before

Greece's geopolitical location is much more important than their economic or humanitarian issues for some

 

[ClosingADoor]

So? Why can't they extend it for a few days? People will vote on the damn thing and they said if the people vote yes they sign it. Heck, this is the closest we have been to a deal. No wonder the Troika pulls it back off the table once Greece reaches for it though. They want Greek people to be against their government, that's all they are thinking about. Now they are watching, hoping there will be some sort of political collapse. The Troika wants someone else in power, that's all these fake negotiations are for.

Why can't they just extend it for a few days... This is not a damn high school project you can just turn in late at the teacher. These are actual life altering decisions that need to be made for millions of people and the representative of those people can't be bothered to make up his own mind and continues doing things last minute instead of following an actual plan.

Boom, headshot.

Headshot for what? A nice quote in the papers?

 

[ElTorro]

The media is doing this because from the beginning there has been an intense propaganda campaign against Greece -- the whole damn thing has been a sham meant to overthrow the elected government of Greece and replace it with EU-approved 'technocrat.' The Troika mafia know that if they have to listen to the democratic will of the Greek people, Italy and Spain will be next, and they won't be able to demonize or bully either one of those quite so easily. Now that the Troika has lost, they're making sure Greece is punished severely.

LOL, right, that's why the Eurozone has poured so much money into Greece, knowing that they would never get it back in full, and continued to offer to do so. The ECB stretching their own rules to limit to keep the Greek bank system alive with ELAs that begin to border on the illegal, that's all part of a propaganda campaign to 'punish' Greece.

Man, these conspiracy theories some people have... It's always nice to have a simple David-vs-Goliath narrative to explain the world.

 

[Irminsul]

On whatever is the thing that the Eurogroup put in front of Tsipras that made him go ballistic.

Which is neither known to the general populace nor a final, ready-to-sign document. So they're voting blindly on... something. Besides the fact that it's too fucking late for that when the referendum happens.

Brilliant idea, I must say.

Man, these conspiracy theories some people have... It's always nice to have a simple David-vs-Goliath narrative to explain the world.

Eh, just take a look at that avatar.

 

[elrechazado]

Why can't they just extend it for a few days... This is not a damn high school project you can just turn in late at the teacher. These are actual life altering decisions that need to be made for millions of people and the representative of those people can't be bothered to make up his own mind and continues doing things last minute instead of following an actual plan.


Headshot for what? A nice quote in the papers?

Headshot for Greece

 

[ICKE]

Do you really think the problem is that Tsipras is going "lelz, tax avoidance, idgaf"? No, of course not. He knows tax avoidance is a problem

Does he really? Giorgos Tsipras is now the secretary general of economic relations in the foreign ministry now. He happens to also be the cousin of PM Tsipras. Nikos Kountouras is now the political adviser in the ministry of tourism, sister of the previously mentioned. The newly elected justice minister has a wife who is now the chairman of one department in the public administration. Also other relatives and family members have received jobs from the government. This is nepotism as usual. Not that political affiliation is not a major factor in other Member States but politicians are at least extremely careful when family members are appointed to public office.

The new government might be willing to raise some taxes but I have no faith that they are going to provide transparent and good governance.

 

[Coriolanus]

Which is neither known to the general populace nor a final, ready-to-sign document. So they're voting blindly on... something. Besides the fact that it's too fucking late for that when the referendum happens.

Brilliant idea, I must say.

Yerp. Alas, still better than kicking the can down the road again.

Why can't they just extend it for a few days... This is not a damn high school project you can just turn in late at the teacher. These are actual life altering decisions that need to be made for millions of people and the representative of those people can't be bothered to make up his own mind and continues doing things last minute instead of following an actual plan.

True, it is not a high school project. Which is why one must wonder why (arguably) both parties are toying with the integrity of the Euro as a whole, instead of doing The Sensible Thing.

As previously mentioned by... someone... that is because it would be political suicide.

 

[Ether_Snake]

So basically continue the endless program extension loop is what you are proposing?
Greece needs to get a debt cut (which they never will because that would be political suicide for every northern european politician) or they need to devalue their currency to get competitive again.

If Tsipras would be all about letting the Greek people decide he would have held a referendum in feb when the last program extension was.

Why would he have done that in February? Greece tried to get a good deal since then, many times, they never got one, because the people at the other side of the table are not trying to do anything else than make sure Syriza becomes unpopular. At some point, you have to stop being taken for a fool, so he goes for a referendum knowing very well that people will likely vote Yes. How could the Troika then dick around and pull out more than ever just because he's asking people to vote on a proposal given by them to begin with?

It's clear that Greece has done what it could in this, and that the other side was really just playing political sabotage. It won't work, it will embolden all the political parties they have been trying to undermine through their antics.

 

[Xando]

Man, these conspiracy theories some people have... It's always nice to have a simple David-vs-Goliath narrative to explain the world.

What do you expect from the same poster that defends Putins Ukraine adventure.

Which is neither known to the general populace nor a final, ready-to-sign document. So they're voting blindly on... something. Besides the fact that it's too fucking late for that when the referendum happens.

Brilliant idea, I must say.

That's the most baffling thing to me. Posters hailing Tsipras to let the people vote without explaining what exactly the offer is.

Why would he have done that in February? Greece tried to get a good deal since then, many times, they never got one, because the people at the other side of the table are not trying to do anything else than make sure Syriza becomes unpopular. At some point, you have to stop being taken for a fool, so he goes for a referendum knowing very well that people will likely vote Yes. How could the Troika then dick around and pull out more than ever just because he's asking people to vote on a proposal given by them to begin with?

It's clear that Greece has done what it could in this, and that the other side was really just playing political sabotage. It won't work, it will embolden all the political parties they have been trying to undermine through their antics.

Again you are talking about a proposal that was neither agreed on or presented to the greek public.
If Tsipras wants a referendum he should have announced a Grexit or not referendum 2 weeks ago but then again neither one would have helped him keeping his power. Scrapping together a referendum to somehow save himself another month isn't helping anyone except himself and syriza.


Anyway, is there a stream to the greek parlament debate with english translation?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Does he really? Giorgos Tsipras is now the secretary general of economic relations in the foreign ministry now. He happens to also be the cousin of PM Tsipras. Nikos Kountouras is now the political adviser in the ministry of tourism, sister of the previously mentioned. The newly elected justice minister has a wife who is now the chairman of one department in the public administration. Also other relatives and family members have received jobs from the government. This is nepotism as usual.

Yes, and the United Kingdom clearly has serious problems given the fact the former energy minister, Ed Miliband, was brother of the former foreign minister, David Miliband, and the former secretary to the treasury Ed Balls was husband of Yvette Cooper, the former home secretary. People from the same family have similar interests, shock, surprise. People who met each other in similar career paths get married, shock, surprise. Rather than engaging with vague tattle, why not try make an actual sustained argument?

 

[Wafflecakes]

So you're okay with things like predatory pay-day lenders, presumably?

False equivalency.

 

[Tugatrix]

The Euro will be very damaged, because markets won't trust the currency. And the Eurozone will be deeply hurt too for it.

Euro is dead after this. Good job,Dijsselbloem!

Look when you are paid to invest Money, lend, etc you have to be inteligent and analytical, where does paniking enter on this picture? you guess it right it wont they know Euro will get minimal damage for this, unless those speculators what to profit some and use the panic card to get more Money

"look i'm on panic throw me more Money"

 

[wsippel]

On whatever is the thing that the Eurogroup put in front of Tsipras that made him go ballistic.

At least according to his speech today.

Mind, that's the same thing that Djesmbnlsj promptly said right after that could still be changed.

This is the current EU proposal: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9F6ub8wD7gqZW9OQUJtUWhKNm8/edit

I just skimmed it, but what I've seen seemed pretty reasonable to me. Raise VAT, corporate and luxury taxes, remove tax exemptions, fix tax avoidance, reduce military spending, privatize ports, airports and utilities, auction off 4G and 5G frequencies and so on.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

False equivalency.

You can't just say "false equivalency"; the equivalency isn't necessarily false until you explain why the two don't match up. Given you've not done that, you may as well have just posted a picture of a unicorn farting rainbows for all the useful content it added to the argument.

 

[Souldestroyer Reborn]

They've been quite clear since the day they won it what they want, but of course, accepting more lenient terms and letting them do their own economic programs will mean that austerity is a farce and will put several rightwing parties against the walls in the next elections, something the current EU leaders don't want to happen. EU thought they could keep shoveling their ideas and choke Greece and the current goverment, and that they wouldn't take a meassure like that. Well they were wrong.

If you can see the whole situation dosn't have a more than a considerable political paint instead of an economic one, I don't know what to say.

Agreed.

The reason the EU is being so hardline is to save their own face more than anything else. The EU put all their eggs in one basket in regards to Austerity, the IMF too, only to be found out that in actual fact Austerity does not work.

The IMF carried out a report recently and admitted as much.

This whole situation has been a joke since day one and shows that the EU itself is a failed experiment, a total joke. The whole point of the EU was to bring a group of countries with similar views closer together to increase trade, culture and movement between regions.

Think of it like this, the USA is the EU. The US states are the countries, except with much more power.

The problem with such a system, from day 1, is that even if a group of countries with similar views come together, they all have their own agenda, they actually want different things to make their own countries better.

Ultimately you have a group of countries falling under the one banner, economically linked together, while tearing each other apart from the inside.

It does not work. It will never work.

Not unless there becomes a central government in the EU which over rules everyone else, where the EU basically becomes the US and the countries literally become nothing more than states.

Anyway, this leads us onto the problem with Greece. The EU as it was designed to do, should have prepped Greece up when the shit hit the fan. However, the EU countries looked at it as an opportunity to make things better from themselves, by making more money off of the situation. Again, like i stated above, each country in the EU has their own agenda, they are in it for themselves. No-One else.

In an ideal world, if the EU worked properly, it would have done the first part as above, and then it would have helped Greece get back on its feet, stabilised and ate up any financial losses. It would then have looked at fixing the issues which lead to that situation in the first place.

However self interest and greed get in the way.

 

[PdotMichael]

Look when you are paid to invest Money, lend, etc you have to be inteligent and analytical, where does paniking enter on this picture? you guess it right it wont they know Euro will get minimal damage for this, unless those speculators what to profit some and use the panic card to get more Money

"look i'm on panic throw me more Money"

People don't understand that the market isn't a headless entity that gets out of control by the first best political event.

The markets will still invest in the Euro because some of the strongest economical powerhouses in the world are part of it.

 

[alstein]

If the lenders suggested the measures and checked on their implementation and then also kept lending, how is it not also their fault?

You lend money to anyone, you're liable to lose it. Either way, one must drop the pretense that they're actually helping the borrower.



They kinda did run exactly on that note, among other things.

It's going to be interesting to see what happens in the US if Kansas starts defaulting- they're in pretty bad trouble themselves due to bad policy and a populace that hates paying taxes.

I do think the EU to survive has to become more like the US in regards to central authority- it's going to have to work for the common good of all states in fiscal matters.

A central taxation and collection policy for the purpose of collective improvement (and reducing inequality within Europe) would do wonders, but it won't happen. No way the richer states sign on for this though- it took ages for it to happen in the US, over 100 years.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Meanwhile, pro-Syriza protests in Spain:

http://www.theguardian.com/business...s-referendum-tsipras-eurogroup-ministers-live

A protest in support of the Greek government has taken place in Madrid tonight, attended by (among others) the leader of Podemos, Spain’s anti-austerity party.

 

[jakonovski]

privatize ports, airports and utilities, auction off 4G and 5G frequencies and so on.

This is the damaging stuff in the long run, it will give a little money up front but will hamstring future growth as foreign interests own everything in the country. Grexit would be better.

 

[Xando]

@YanniKouts
€1bn withdrawn from #Greece's ATMs today. Almost 1% of the whole Greek deposit base!

https://twitter.com/YanniKouts/status/614881956690575360

 

[Coriolanus]

This is the current EU proposal: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9F6ub8wD7gqZW9OQUJtUWhKNm8/edit

I just skimmed it, but what I've seen seemed pretty reasonable to me. Raise VAT, corporate and luxury taxes, remove tax exemptions, fix tax avoidance, reduce military spending, privatize ports, airports and utilities, auction off 4G and 5G frequencies and so on.

raising VAT and privatizing ports and airports is reasonable?

You having a giggle, m8?

I mean, at best, that whole proposal focuses mostly on reducing short-term debt, pretending that it won't fuck the country beyond belief even harder in the medium and long term.

 

[ClosingADoor]

This is the damaging stuff in the long run, it will give a little money up front but will hamstring future growth as foreign interests own everything in the country. Grexit would be better.

In lots of countries those things are in the hands of corporations and that's just fine.

Auctioning 4G and 5G networks is the norm, since you need telephone companies to use them and that way you get the best price.

Harbors and airports are largely not run by the government, although the government might be a (majority) shareholder in some.