Coriolanus
Banned
They want a write off.
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Greece has no money to pay the IMF, default imminent
- Thread starter ICKE
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They want a write off.
Frustrated_me
Member
Of what amount? 200+ billion dollars? That's insane..
Coriolanus
Banned
So is thinking that the money isn't already lost.
Pretty sure that the debt is in euros, tho.
Empyrean Heaven
Member
And Zeus' revenge is complete.
Theonik
Member
Living abroad as a Greek will continue sucking for the foreseeable future.
Frustrated_me
Member
Right it's Euros, sorry. So where did all that aid money go to? The Greek economy is in terrible shape even with all that money injected into it.
Has this ever happened before?
So the current Greek government was just extending the talks up until the last minute and use the referendum as a bailout of sorts to get out of the talks? Then what?
I know. I know.
elrechazado
Banned
Why would Russia put ten percent of their hard currency st that kind of risk with zero reward? Russia isn't stupid
If the banking sector collapses and there is widespread turmoil across the country, it might be better for some of these politicians to bail out. People tend to be rather angry when they lose everything.
I actually believed Varoufakis was a sensible person but he has been an utter embarrassment during this whole fiasco. Other Member States need to prepare for unexpected events. It is not a joke if people can't withdraw money from their bank accounts and we also have a huge refugee crisis going on. Greece needs help in one form or another.
Rawket Lawnchair
Member
Not necessarily; what Greeks do best is fight one another, and the referendum is a prime reason for a fight. Already people are divided regarding Tsipras' rash decision for a referendum as if it was the final offer and whether it was the right move, and today you have previous PMs (who were responsible for the crisis to begin with, but are still influential in certain circles) taking jabs at him from every angle.
As for the common folk; they've already been bullied enough from European media and politicians that insult them, their personal and national sacrifices and their governments for 5 years without end in sight, and they are being sent like cattle to a slaughter (referendum) that no one knows if it will happen and what the question will be.
It's a bloody mess that could have been solved from the start if the EU and the EZ cared for its unity more than it cared for its banks. Instead what they care about is throwing Tsipras and Varoufakis out of their midst, so other more manageable pawns can take their place.
The Greek people are all about paying their debts without having to be driven to the ground, ridiculed and held at gunpoint every few weeks.
Fenderputty
Banned
yeah the reason Germany loves the euro is because it devalued their currently comparatively. now they enjoy the trade and manufacturing as a result.
Greece getting control of its own currency, injecting its economy and devaluing its currency would do wonders for it.
Ether_Snake
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http://www.theguardian.com/business...s-referendum-tsipras-eurogroup-ministers-live
You see right there how disingenuous they have been; he's saying that even if the Greek government accepts the proposal, "we don't trust them". It's not like Tsipras would reveal that he's really an alien in human disguise just because the proposal is suddenly accepted, let alone because people voted to accept it in a referendum.
So it's clear as clear water that the real aim here has been attempting to undermine Syriza. The very reason such bad proposals are made is to have Syriza act against the people, to lose face. Dijsselbloem is clearly underlining this truth with this comment. "Oh they accepted the proposal uh? Well, did they really??" They would drag this on to cause as much damage as possible, that's the real aim, to push Syriza out and/or make people lose faith in alternative governments that stand up to the negotiators.
That's the real fear for the Troika: that Syriza is setting up a precedent when it comes to negotiations.
You see right there how disingenuous they have been; he's saying that even if the Greek government accepts the proposal, "we don't trust them". It's not like Tsipras would reveal that he's really an alien in human disguise just because the proposal is suddenly accepted, let alone because people voted to accept it in a referendum.
So it's clear as clear water that the real aim here has been attempting to undermine Syriza. The very reason such bad proposals are made is to have Syriza act against the people, to lose face. Dijsselbloem is clearly underlining this truth with this comment. "Oh they accepted the proposal uh? Well, did they really??" They would drag this on to cause as much damage as possible, that's the real aim, to push Syriza out and/or make people lose faith in alternative governments that stand up to the negotiators.
That's the real fear for the Troika: that Syriza is setting up a precedent when it comes to negotiations.
Coriolanus
Banned
+-95% of the money went towards paying the creditors.
I ain't even joking.
The current government was trying to convince the EU to stop demanding cuts in exchange for more money, and acquiesced a bit on the creditor's requests while not completely giving in in others. Both sides decided to kick the can down the road a coupla months back. Spain called it bullshit at the same, saying what everybody knew, that they'd have to face these issues in a few months anyway.
Rawket Lawnchair
Member
What Dijsselbloem is also saying is that a different government, a tamer, more manageable one, would be welcome in the future.
The EU and the EZ at work, ladies and gentlemen.
MonorailCat
Member
I think he would be fine with a competent one. The rest is bonus.
nature boy
Member
So the current greek government spends 6 months negotiating a new deal and all of a sudden if the greek people say yes they will implement all the measures?
Get real.
Ether_Snake
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So what the heck are they supposed to do? Say no or say yes? Why even propose anything then? Why even negotiate?
See, the closer they would have been to a deal, the more it would have been about making sure Syriza looks like they lost. Any time Greece would have nudged in the proposal's direction, it would have been changed to make it even less appealing. That's all that this has been about; making sure Syriza isn't setting an example for others to follow.
Rawket Lawnchair
Member
Obviously; but competency is not a one-way street.
It is rather historic that Greece was not invited to the meeting. The Eurogroup is about to lose one member and the consequences will be catastrophic for all those Greek citizens who own apartments, have a private business and so on.
This is what happens when you give reactionary loons too much power. Tsipras and his friends have managed to alienate almost every possible ally.
This is what happens when you give reactionary loons too much power. Tsipras and his friends have managed to alienate almost every possible ally.
Coriolanus
Banned
Given their history of being perfectly happy working with the previous governments, i seriously fucking doubt it.
SymbiantXenos
Member
Thing is why not have a referendum months ago? Why wait until now?
Tsipras had a lot of allies in the EU when he was elected. That even Cyprus signed the EZ statement should tell you everything about how Tsipras and Varoufakis behaved the last months.
Osiris
I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
Simple, they reached the point where rejecting proposals was making them look bad, therefore they are now passing the buck onto the Greek people for political cover, gamesmanship and as a delaying tactic.
I think Varoufakis may get a harsh lesson in the consequences of playing games on the edge of a cliff, personally.
The Guardian said:
When you have even The Guardian telegraphing the end of the Games Theory economist political life over this, well, enough said
If there were any questions about the competency of the Greek government left:
"Brussels, yesterday night: Greek negotiators see tweets from Athens, leave room, don't come back again. Then TV speech of Tsipras."
"By all accounts, institutions and Greek negotiators were close to an agreement yesterday. Then TV speech of Tsipras."
"Brussels, yesterday night: Greek negotiators see tweets from Athens, leave room, don't come back again. Then TV speech of Tsipras."
"By all accounts, institutions and Greek negotiators were close to an agreement yesterday. Then TV speech of Tsipras."
Osiris
I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
Oh wow.
Poor EU/EZ representatives must have gotten really tired with having to accommodate the children at the party
Right. It's not helping the actual people. It's helping out banks from other European countries.
And Greece spends an insane amount on military.
They even want to reduce it, but they are getting pressured into not reducing it.
Finland is not going to join anything. The newly elected government is implementing some reforms to save money, something a vast majority of the public supports. The debt ratio is in control and the country only needs to address its ongoing deficit.
thehypocrite
Member
Which banks hold the titles and are there any other countries in hook for the debt?
I get that the money is lost, but where did the money went?
Also why did they needed that amount?
Why was it provided to them in 1st place?
SymbiantXenos
Member
Think it was a bluff. And at the moment it was called.
Banks don't hold a thing anymore, haircuts were given and the banks in each respective country were recapitalized. Mind you, they were recapped for making bad loans across the board, not just to Greece. ECB/EU loans covered the banks behind.
MonorailCat
Member
The Eurogroup statement ...
Hahaha. That ain't gonna do shit. Our elderly(that will require hospital care) will increase by a buttload in the next 10-20 years. We don't even have the budgets to provide satisfactory care right now. We will be lacking both money and personal for that. Furthermore, the housing market is already showing signs of bursting and that's about the only major source of investment for individual Finnish people.
There's probably more that i forgot right now, but these issues are not even talked about on the governmental level. Our healthcare professors are already shitting themselves over what will follow after SOTE. As for the bolded, that ain't true at all. They are cutting from all the wrong places and increasing bureaucracy. That's not something even the average Joe wants. Furthermore, there's still nothing being done to industry going to other countries.
Ether_Snake
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To help banks outside of Greece.
Spain is the next big show. People know they need a party that will stand up for them otherwise they'll end up in a hard place. You'll see Podemos be elected just as Syriza was, and the Troika will freak out because they know they can't pull off the blame game on everyone, they'll have to give in eventually and accept that they are really not in a bargaining position.
I really hope there's a federal prosecutor war room some where with a giant wall of connected strings building a RICO case to take down the entire banking cartel, including basically every major fiduciary institution that deals in US dollars (all of them). Between supporting the illegal drug trade, human trafficking, insider trader, bribery, and just straight up fraud, it should really be nothing but a matter of will to burn it all down.
The alternative was for Greece to default on their obligations and for their banking system to collapse. The government of the day could have chosen to not take the bailout, but they didn't.
It's perverse to me anyone to bash the Eurozone countries for offering, and then providing, assistance only to be made out to be some kind of monstrous overlord after the fact.
There are plenty of other countries within the group that had to take unpalatable actions (Ireland for one) who will rightly be aggrieved that they've contributed funds to Greece only to have it thrown back in their faces.
thehypocrite
Member
That's disgusting.
So even after doing that they went full austerity on the greece people on top of the fact that they needed to pay that amount?
They placed them in an impossible scenario.
Some politicians think they are playing games of thrones simulations.
Coriolanus
Banned
Now now, be fair. The risk of the whole eurozone collapsing if Greece didn't take that deal at the time was huge, which is why we nowadays see the "euro is safe from collapse if grexit happens" rethoric so often. Pretending that greece taking the deal beneffited only greece is downright obtuse.
I didn't say there wasn't an advantage to the rest of the Eurozone group, but that doesn't negate the fact that Greece willingly took the money.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Years of economic depression until the inevitable fall or take the fall now and emerge free of economic extorsions in a few years?
I'll take the second one if I were Greece.
ClosingADoor
Member
Yes, please hope for the economic apocalypse and 500 million people to suffer and have their futures destroyed. That will surely not be a terrible thing...
The Greek government has already spoken out against making the deal. They still have the power to vote on it, no matter how the referendum goes. At this moment, you can't really blame anyone for distrusting the other party (that goes for both Greece trusting the EU and the EU trusting Greece).
Coriolanus
Banned
And doesnt change the fact that it was in the Eurozone's best interest that Greece take the bloody money, at which point holding that fact against Greece is meaningless.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Greece (politicians) took the money by lying and EU (banks) gave them the money knowing they were lying but they were happy doing so.
It was a deal that benefitted both parties.
Ether_Snake
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What's great is that at least, the threats will be exposed as propaganda. Greece will be fine, the Greek people will be better off, once all of this disingenuous negotiation that is all driven by a desire to preserve influence on the economic programs of the "lower" countries is over.
This has been nothing but a cartel trying to control how some countries in weakened positions spend their money in the favor of the cartel. It will come back to screw them.
This has been nothing but a cartel trying to control how some countries in weakened positions spend their money in the favor of the cartel. It will come back to screw them.
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