I'm well aware, seeing as i quoted a post that did just that. I just wanted to present a counter opinion to his claim.
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Greece to hold referendum on austerity measures 5 July
- Thread starter Coriolanus
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I'm well aware, seeing as i quoted a post that did just that. I just wanted to present a counter opinion to his claim.
Its not like they removed it on purpose - they have to, because the mandate for that program runs out tomorrow, which everybody involved (explicitly including the Greek delegation) knows for months.
They don't actually have to, you know since they own most of the debt. They could easily say "fine we'll wait for the fucking referendum". It's not like an extra week matters on the whole.
That's factually untrue. They really have to, because all the negotiations were about the EFSF program which loses its mandate on June 30th.
Any new program has to come from the ESM, which needs a new legal base, and acceptance of several countries parliaments.
spindoctor
Member
Why is the referendum a week after the deadline?
Shame they didn't ask the people of Greece if they wanted to spend all that EU money on white elephants and vanity projects in the first place, and they didn't ask the people already in the EU whether or not they wanted to foot the bill.
It's all about shoe-horning every country they possibly can into the European 'project'. None of the people who created this mess will ever answer for it.
Everyone in the working world practises austerity whether they see it or not - it's called 'spending what you have' and 'living within your means' or - basic logic.
The proposal by the institutions was the extension of the 2nd bailout program. The 2nd bailout program ends tomorrow, hence there will be nothing to vote on come Sunday.
The Greek government also asked for an additional 6bln of ELA from the ECB on Sunday which rightfully wasn't granted, prompting the capital controls and the bank closures.
Syriza is trying to get a better deal beyond the deadlines everyone is aware of while holding the Greek hostage in the process.
Since multiple national parlaments would have to agree to a extension it kinda matters.
Ted Striker
Neo Member
A liitle late for an answer but here goes ..
Yes, i'm wrong , obviously some morning during the 90s we Greeks woke up and decided to enter Eurozone , because why the fuck no. Thank you for teaching my own country's history.
The reasons common people want to stay in Euro today have nothing to do with the reasons politicical and economical elites wanted to enter in the first place.
Let's say greece votes "yes" to further austerity.
Greece now wants to sign the deal. Now the troika are all "yeah sure, but you're a week late, you should have signed this a week ago and now Greece will default so you don't have to pay anything at all and the euro will fail". Because of one week.
Does that really strike you as behaviour from a party that had a serious interest in clinching these negotiations, ever? Irrational.
Now the Syriza behaviour at least is understandable - they don't want the deal, they'd rather default than implement more austerity. So turning it down was easy for them, they were voted into office on an anti austerity mandate - they dont have the political capital to sign up for more austerity. But at the same time they know that a lot of greeks, maybe even a majority of greeks, would accept this deal rather than defaulting and potentially being thrown out of the eurozone. So they put it up for a vote saying "we don't want this shit deal, but if the people of greece does, we'll accept that and be done with it". Rational.
Becasue they got the ultimatum on saturday, and they didn't want to sign it. They'd rather default, which on the whole seems like the best option for Greece. They were obviously hoping for a deal that didn't make a default seem more attractive.
Ether_Snake
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Hilarious, so Greece was supposed to call for a referendum earlier? Why would ANY offer be made so close to the deadline if taking the proposal to hold a referendum means it's too late?
Because the Troika didn't want a referendum to be held on this proposal! How can any of you both blame Greece for holding a referendum on the last proposal unless of course you are saying the Greeks should not vote on it.
Two-faced attitude. The proposal was made, Greece took it to hold a referendum on it, now the Troika says it's too late! How much clearer can it be that the Troika used the deadline to force them to accept a bad deal? Were they supposed to sign it, or even hold a referendum in the following hours??
Try to answer that without saying the Greek government had to accept a deal without letting the population vote on it!
Because the Troika didn't want a referendum to be held on this proposal! How can any of you both blame Greece for holding a referendum on the last proposal unless of course you are saying the Greeks should not vote on it.
Two-faced attitude. The proposal was made, Greece took it to hold a referendum on it, now the Troika says it's too late! How much clearer can it be that the Troika used the deadline to force them to accept a bad deal? Were they supposed to sign it, or even hold a referendum in the following hours??
Try to answer that without saying the Greek government had to accept a deal without letting the population vote on it!
Germany recommended a referendum over one month ago but this suggestion got declined.
That´s not how it works. There would be completely new negotiations, where the funds would have to come from the ESM, which after a successfull conclusion several national parliaments of Eurozone countries would have to agree to.
Syriza asks the Greek explicitly to vote "no". If the populace would vote yes, thats like a successfull vote of no confidence, basically making new elections necessary. Which would put Greece in a Limbo for several weeks.
Rational? Not to me.
Ether_Snake
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Why hold it a month ago? There was still time to negotiate.
And answer if Greece was supposed to accept the last proposal without having the population vote on it, just because now we were closer to a deadline? You can see how clearly it was disingenuous of the Troika. You are saying Greeks should not vote on a proposal that is handed close to the Troika's own deadline, that they should just sign it.
Tsipras is right, it's an affront to democracy.
There should not even be a referendum ffs. The reason the Greek people voted in Syriza was so that they could represent the Greek people. What's the point of a government if every time a decision needs to be made, a referendum is created. Defeats the purpose of the government.
Not to mention a referendum that has an option that does not exist anymore. Its not even a referendum if you can only vote for 1 single option. The other option no longer exist from tomorrow.
Yeah, but, it's not like they're deciding the official colour of toilet paper here. It's a decision that will have direct consequences for multiple generations.
The Point is, that the Deadline was not set arbitrarily or randomly - but set on the date when the legal mandate for the funds runs out.
Pretending otherwise is disenginious.
Ether_Snake
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Great so at least you admit you don't want the Greek population to vote on the Troika's self-destructing magically-expiring proposal.
The closer we are to their deadline, the more pressing it becomes for Greek to just accept the deal? What a farce. Might as well make it the worst deal ever.
They shouldn't have waited until saturday to present their ultimatum then. Where the money comes from isn't what the greek are voting on, they are voting on measures they have to take to receive it. That part doesn't need renegotionation.
Real "sd" rating can´t come before July 8th.
So following your logic each european country should have had a referendum for each time they payed greece?
Uh .. I'm sorry but I can't follow your logic
Sephiroth503
Member
Can't remember if it was this forum or not but saw one analogy which I thought was fitting.
It's like if a group of children demanded increased pocket money from their parents and then when the parents refuse they are accused of not respecting the democratic process of the children.
It's like if a group of children demanded increased pocket money from their parents and then when the parents refuse they are accused of not respecting the democratic process of the children.
Which is also factually untrue, and the reason I was wondering on the exact wording of the Ballot. And the Ballot only refers to a proposal, which legally doesn´t exist anymore after tomorrow.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
Yeah cause let's all equate the suffering and lives of 11 million people with "children"
As far as i know, Syriza has already stated that they would obey the referendum, regardless of the outcome. No reelections necessary.
They are voting on specific measures the greek has to undertake in order to get a deal. There are no reasons to renegotiate those terms if they really want this deal to happen.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
That's an horrifying analogy.
The relationship between the EU and Greece is closer to that of a dope peddler and a fiend.
Apart from it only being astonishingly reductive and pathologically stupid its right on the button.
In the spirit of democracy, why not?
PumpkinSpice
Banned
Or a loan shark offering to break your legs in exchange for delaying payment.
nature boy
Member
It's the "ECB pays what they own us to the IMF. They sort it out between themselves" thing.
Sephiroth503
Member
The issue is that just because the Greek nation can "vote" on something (that won't exist), in this case more money for Greece, doesn't mean the EU and IMF just have to say "Well, since you voted for something we never offered, I guess we'll just have to give you that money since you followed your democratic process"
But they wouldn´t have a mandate. Greece would be in a full blown constitutional crisis.
Man, don´t you want to see the problem?
The deal the Referendum is about is about Money from the EFSF. The last payment, which has been preapproved many months ago. It could have been agreed upon by elected officials without the Need to ask national parliaments of several Eurozone countries.
This program ends on June 30th.
Any new Agreement after that date would have to be fianced by the ESM. Even if it would look exactly the same as the current deal, now it is necessary for said parliaments to agree again.
And judging by the press of those countries, it ight be a very hard sell.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
I don't know why people are getting so stuck on this point; if the troika wants to unilaterally take back their last "final offer" after it being put to a vote, they can just renegotiate.
The ballot might as well say:
Stay in the Euro and continue austerity:
- Yes
- No
Osiris
I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
Kinda fitting.
I mean I can't count the number of junkies I've met who swear the problem is just that damned dealer who won't stop supplying them, personal responsibility? - Out of the window.
ClosingADoor
Member
If Greece wanted a referendum, they should have gone to the other parties and said: "Look, we need our population to vote on this, so let's make a proposal in time and have them vote before the deadline is passed." I don't know why that is difficult to understand.
Voting on it is not wrong, although you can argue that by voting for the government, the Greek people have already given them the right to make a deal or not.
What you can't do is just come in the last day and say you are putting it up to a vote after the deadline.
And yes, closing in on a deadline is increasing pressure. That is how deals work. If Greece wanted to prevent that, they should have worked out a solution long before the deadline, which was already known to them for a very long time, ran out.
The problem here is Syriza does not want the deal to happen. So if they are forced to by the people, how can they be trusted to work out the details in the best way if they are against it. If Greece votes to agree with the proposal (if that is even being accepted by the other parties involved...) Syriza has to step down. It means that between the election and the referendum, the Greek people changed their mind on implemented austerity.
Ether_Snake
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One more nobel prize winner agreeing.
Joseph Stiglitz:
Full article: http://www.theguardian.com/business...litz-how-i-would-vote-in-the-greek-referendum
He says vote No.
Joseph Stiglitz:
Full article: http://www.theguardian.com/business...litz-how-i-would-vote-in-the-greek-referendum
He says vote No.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
When the game is rigged, the only thing you can do to win is cheat.
ClosingADoor
Member
If everyone can see you're cheating, the other party will have to look the other way. If they will remains the big question now.
Nikodemos
Member
Funny how people such as Stiglitz, Krugman, heck even Friedman <ptooi!> tend to agree on such issues, but somehow these escape the 'luminaries' heading the EuroGroup, the IMF and the Comission. It's almost as if they don't actually give a fuck about real recovery for Greece, but merely want to blooden SYRIZA for the gall of having stood up to them, unlike Karamanlis, Papandreou, Samaras et. al.
So the Greek people consciously and willingly voted a variety of parties that would ignore the problem and put that on their slogans for the last 40 years of democracy.
Yes.
The rest of Europe should probably get a referendum on if we extend the loan. Shall we hold it in two weeks and ask if the public agree to authorise an extension from two weeks ago to one week ago?
No?
From an economist standpoint the Euro is insane. INSANE.
spindoctor
Member
Some would say that holding a referendum to vote on a proposal that expired 5 days before the referendum itself is also something of a farce.
Ninja Of Chaos
Member
The previous deals Greece got weren't really sweetheart deals either though. The problem here is that the rest of Europe sees Greece as "them" and not a part of "us". That is not a union. Unless they figure out that the full recovery of Greece is what's most important (even if Greece has to receive constant money from other countries), this entire experiment has failed. You can't have Germans complaining about their "tax money" going to "them".
ClosingADoor
Member
Well, something is clearly wrong if you have a country running with corrupt governments for so long. The individual Greek is not to blame, but if a whole country just goes along with the situation, you can't be surprised when things go terribly wrong from time to time.
Is there and easy solution for this, of course not. I also don't have one ready or am in a position to say to Greece what they should do. But you must understand how bad it looks from an outside perspective.
Not just the other Euro countries are to blame in that, or you must have missed the times the Germans were called Nazi's time and time again. Of course those things will be received badly by the party you are negotiating with to help you get out trouble.
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