This article prooves my point. It always depends on the law under which the bonds were issued. No "allowing" of any kind involved.
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Greece to hold referendum on austerity measures 5 July
- Thread starter Coriolanus
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This article prooves my point. It always depends on the law under which the bonds were issued. No "allowing" of any kind involved.
Coriolanus
Banned
Argentina initiated the restructuring process and chose which laws would apply. They could've gone with UK law instead, or whatever would lend the process credence, really. Don't be fucking dense.
You are wrong. It is ok. It happens. Now stop insisting on the fucking mistake.
If you start to wonder why they didn't, the answer is "falklands", fwiw.
Maedre
Banned
Less coruption, more potential, more industry. But you are right, italy is one of those critical countries. It should have never entered the Euro.
vinnygambini
Why are strippers at the U.N. bad when they're great at strip clubs???
What are the Greek people voting on exactly, it doesn't seem clear to me: is it as simple as stay in Euro, austerity, or out of Euro, hoping for the best?
Are the personal insults really necessary? :-/
I did not say that Argentina handled the Situation well. But that doesn´t change the fact, that in a case were bond holders do not agree to a restructuring, the law under which the bonds were issued comes into play.
I wanted to say this too. It's not a choice at that point.
At this point it's a Euro or Drachma vote.
Looks like most people will vote 'Yes'.
33 = No, 47 = Yes
(Source: To Vima, translated by Der Spiegel)
Let's see. It also looks like more people are actively campaigning and demonstrating for 'No', so in the end they might mobilize more people to actually go vote.
33 = No, 47 = Yes
(Source: To Vima, translated by Der Spiegel)
Let's see. It also looks like more people are actively campaigning and demonstrating for 'No', so in the end they might mobilize more people to actually go vote.
Not really.
Vote Yes - Tsipras will negociate.
Vote No* - Tsipras will negociate.
That's what I conclude.
*Tsipras: "Many are asking: what happens after the #referendum? With a clear "NO", we will have a much stronger negotiating position"
Source: his twitter.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
The closest analog might be a union rep getting a strike mandate. Doesn't mean they go on strike, just that they have a much better bargaining position and the ability to strike if they need to.
Nikodemos
Member
That's actually a pretty good comparison. Particularly since we're talking about a Socialist party here.
Ether_Snake
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And if they vote yes, let's see how the Troika will react. We will basically finally have a deal, proposed by the Troika as a take it or leave it, signed by Greece.
Let's see them find an excuse to say it's no longer valid, effectively kicking Greece out in front of everyone.
Let's see them find an excuse to say it's no longer valid, effectively kicking Greece out in front of everyone.
videogamer
Banned
American courts are possibly less corrupt than Argentinian ones.
No excuse necessary, as this deal will have to pass several national parlaments.
PdotMichael
Banned
Would have been more useful one month ago.
But I guess he didn't want to go into the negotiation with a "yes".
Goverment and voters
Especially if the general mind set is not to trust the state in such things.
But I guess he didn't want to go into the negotiation with a "yes".
Goverment and voters
Especially if the general mind set is not to trust the state in such things.
Ether_Snake
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So? They will still have to decide if they accept their own signed proposal or kick Greece out. It will be in their hands.
PdotMichael
Banned
How do you expect the Euro countries parlaments to vote on the proposal?
My words exactly!
Member
People in defence of "NO", currently outside the Greek Parliament.
I really cannot wait till Sunday. As i said before, this is it. It's crunchtime. Either we try to put an end to this madness or my fellow modern Greeks do the "ragias" again (be EU's lapdog for a few bucks) and bury my generation even further into the ground while taking future generations with them.
I don't even like Syriza (i am opposed to quite a few of its' views) but hell if that stops me from voting no this Sunday.
Ether_Snake
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Merkel: "We are still always open to negotiations."
They'll get the proposal they proposed signed. They can't wiggle out of this without being even more contradictory.
petran79
Banned
Not only that but their wages would be kept at minimum as well.
Though the best paid jobs for Greek immigrants in Germany is working in Greek restaurants, owned by Greeks. Even without mastering the language. They pay normal salary
Whether it is yes or now, they'll cook something new and make it irrelevant
do you even read the statements in here? This is not a decision that some people can answer with yes or no. The propose is only valid until 30.06. due to legal reasons.
These reasons include for example that Greece is NOT bankrupt and can sustain its own daily routine without that the public life would break down (which is something that propably might break down tomorrow).
People in defence of "NO", currently outside the Greek Parliament.
I really cannot wait till Sunday. As i said before, this is it. It's crunchtime. Either we try to put an end to this madness or my fellow modern Greeks do the "ragias" again (be EU's lapdog for a few bucks) and bury my generation even further into the ground while taking future generations with them.
I don't even like Syriza (i am opposed to quite a few of its' views) but hell if that stops me from voting no this Sunday.
As a German, I really hope you will vote for "no". I feel quite ashamed by my government's moves - now even proclaiming they offered a big investment iniative, which was just EU funds which Greee can get anyway due to its EU membership (and which requires state investment to even receive the money, which Greece could not do in past years). 5 years of absolutely failed strategies and the eurozone ministers only say "let's continue with this"?
She must have forgotten about those deadlines that were insurpassable mountains preventing any sort of deal to avoid a default.
They can't. It expires tomorrow.
All they can do is renegotiate a similar proposal that would have to be voted on by EU members. But would Greeks need to re-vote on it under your "democracy in action" approach?
And the issue is what happens between tomorrow and Sunday.
I don't really know too much about these things, so I'd like to ask:
What happens if Greece doesn't get bailed out and they default?
What happens to their economy?
Also, if they're so broke now, what can they possibly do to get out of this hole without debt forgiveness or deal?
What happens if Greece doesn't get bailed out and they default?
What happens to their economy?
Also, if they're so broke now, what can they possibly do to get out of this hole without debt forgiveness or deal?
If the troika were to change the terms in their ultimatum and pile on even more austerity - yes, probably.
But if the deal as it was presented stands, and the greeks vote yes, then no.
maniac-kun
Member
The state will have no money to pay its bills.
Ether_Snake
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Why vote again in Greece? Unless the Troika is stupid enough to change the proposal they made AGAIN after we finally have Greece agreeing to the Troika's "take it or leave it".
and Greece decided to leave it. There is no "take it" after 30.06.
Just talked to my sister again. People are lining up at the ATMs and she's heard they'll limit the daily amount to 40 come Wednesday.
She went to LIDL to fill up her fridge. According to her people are calm but anxious and nobody really knows what the referendum is really about. Most think it's Euro Yes/No.
Grandpa is fine. He got the money we sent him via Western Union and he'll get his pension. I feel like the situation would've been very different if the government didn't pay the elderly.
She went to LIDL to fill up her fridge. According to her people are calm but anxious and nobody really knows what the referendum is really about. Most think it's Euro Yes/No.
Grandpa is fine. He got the money we sent him via Western Union and he'll get his pension. I feel like the situation would've been very different if the government didn't pay the elderly.
Souldestroyer Reborn
Banned
Agreed. Hence why the Euro is a total utter farce and a failure.
It will never work in it's current iteration. Ever.
***
The only reason Germany and others were happy to help Greece out by givingthem money was because that money was coming straight back to them as part of the deal with interest on top, basically leaving Greece in a position where it was either staying the same or getting worse.
That's a fact.
No-one who has given Greece the money actually gives a shit about Greece.
I hope they vota no and leave the Euro, then hopefully the whole thing will fall on it's arse like it is destined to do anyway.
Theonik
Member
Scaremongering campaign has worked I guess.
After Tsipras gets the mandate from the people to accept that deal, if the troika did not reopen that deal then they would be crucified around the world. It's the opposite of good faith bargaining, and completely unfair to the Greeks. Remember who's in a state of crisis here. You have to cut them some slack.
If the Greeks vote for that deal, the EU then claiming 'you can't have it, it expired' would be mealy-mouthed bullshit and the idea of European unity would be shattered for good. Deadlines expire all the time in business. If you can still come to an agreement, you just put the terms back on the table. If the EU isn't willing to do that, they'll be seen as the ones casting Greece out of the eurozone, and it will be accepted that their shit proposals were intended to cause that all along. They can't do that.
Theonik
Member
Tsipras live on ERT1
http://webtv.ert.gr/ert1-live/
http://webtv.ert.gr/ert1-live/
Ether_Snake
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Krugman repeated today that the Troika's aim was solely to have Syriza lose support. It wasn't a conspiracy, it was obvious, and more now than ever with the Troika leaders telling the press that "Tsipras must be stopped!" just because the population will now vote on their proposal.
They are afraid he will return with a yes, because it will set a precedent in favor of anti-austerity parties, and the same will be true with a no, because now it's clear that all countries facing austerity demands from external entities need a party that will at least be on their side.
It's no surprise that the Troika is panicking more than ever now.
If he has a no, they know he won't say we leave the Euro, he will come back to tables telling them to negotiate a decent proposal, and the Troika is afraid of being pushed back to the table by outside pressure. They are losing face, not Greece.
They are afraid he will return with a yes, because it will set a precedent in favor of anti-austerity parties, and the same will be true with a no, because now it's clear that all countries facing austerity demands from external entities need a party that will at least be on their side.
It's no surprise that the Troika is panicking more than ever now.
If he has a no, they know he won't say we leave the Euro, he will come back to tables telling them to negotiate a decent proposal, and the Troika is afraid of being pushed back to the table by outside pressure. They are losing face, not Greece.
lets build a metaphor:
I offer you a credit of 100k to finish building your house that is already half way done.
Now you decide that you don't want any money and burn everything down that you built already. Do you really think anyone would still offer you a credit of 100k?
Ted Striker
Neo Member
Stupid metaphor.
petran79
Banned
One real life example that happened to one of my friend:
his father fell victim to a contractor who promised to build a house for a cheap sum. It turns out that the price was higher than expected. House is abandoned in the middle and the whole family are still paying monthly installments for the loans they took from the bank, for an uncompleted house.
PdotMichael
Banned
The additional damage this week would make a new deal necessary anyway.
ClosingADoor
Member
I still don't get this. Why would they have a better position. The deadline for payment on their loan has expired. They are broke and have to go into default. If anything, they have an even worse position because they are actually out of money and can't even pay their own services and public employees anymore. Do you think the public is going to support Syriza when they are not getting paid anymore and not getting their pensions?
I do agree that the Eurozone should just agree with the terms they put up instead of dragging it out even longer. Or if they don't want to just kick them out of the Euro and be done with it, not going for months of new negotiations that will end in the same result.
videogamer
Banned
Greece has already lost face with reckless spending, corrupt governments, tax evasion, and cooked books.
videogamer
Banned
So he runs away if the Greek population votes "yes"? Sounds like he wouldn't accept a mandate from his own population if they support austerity. What is this government.
diffusionx
Gold Member
At this stage I just don't know why Greece will keep on the Eurozone's plan. Has staying on the Euro and accepting their money/terms actually helped the country at all? Things seem just as miserable as 5 years ago with no end in sight. Greece needs growth. You don't grow through austerity. It doesn't work. Austerity is an ideology, not a prescription for growth in a recessed nation.
I know that leaving the Euro, telling the Troika to go screw, etc., is scary and will bring bad things, but Greece has gotten more than its fair share of bad things from working with them. Better the devil you know, maybe? I just feel like the Troika did this to take a hard line with Syriza in order to undermine them. It's a purely political/ideological play, not an economic one. Is this the group that Greece wants to be subservient to indefinitely?
I know that leaving the Euro, telling the Troika to go screw, etc., is scary and will bring bad things, but Greece has gotten more than its fair share of bad things from working with them. Better the devil you know, maybe? I just feel like the Troika did this to take a hard line with Syriza in order to undermine them. It's a purely political/ideological play, not an economic one. Is this the group that Greece wants to be subservient to indefinitely?
fizzelopeguss
Banned
http://www.politico.eu/article/juncker-accuses-tsipras-of-betrayal/
The king of lies and duplicity crying over a Greek betrayal.
This is what we're dealing with, It's all a matter of faith and ideology for these cunts, and they won't hesitate to ride roughshod over democracy and sovereignty to get what they want.
Osiris
I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
There it is, admission that this referendum was about cover for internal political reasons, and little to do with Greece as a whole.
So much for "Whatever the will of the people..."
Well, who would have seen that coming.
"We accept the peoples opinion but if you don't vote my way i'll leave"
videogamer
Banned
It doesn't help when you see things like this:
When they could be looking for jobs instead.
ClosingADoor
Member
That is a bit of a simplification. There is nothing wrong with citizens protesting and making their voice heard.
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