-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Greece to hold referendum on austerity measures 5 July
- Thread starter Coriolanus
- Start date
- Status
Theonik
Member
You only need look to Greece's modern history for the answer to that.
Coriolanus
Banned
The sad thing is that it doesn't stop there, though. The deeper you look, the more you see how even the establishment of the european union was filled with backroom deals. The whole thing is corrupt from top to bottom, and has been for a very long time. Especially when the bigger countries, like Italy, France and Germany are involved. Not that Greece's administration wasn't playing these games either, evidently. Karamanlis and Papandreou sure as heck don't deserve any benefit of doubt.
False. It would be against the constitution if it were proposed without going through parliament first, which it did.
This is the pertaining article of the Greek constitution:
This is not a referendum on bills of a fiscal nature passed by the parliament.
Frustrated_me
Member
I'm not sure I'm following, can you elaborate?
Caipirinha
Member
Friedman is pretty much the central architect of neo-liberalism and by extension much of the wealth inequality and economic injustice in the modern world so Wankstain General is a far too generous imo. I'm not sure I can even articulate the pure hatred I have for that disgusting piece of shit.
There is neither a wording for the referendum nor is there a still available proposal to vote for or against.
Invasion of Cyprus,Imia crysis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imia/Kardak
Are you serious right now?
I'll have a simple pint of lager, thanks. Preferably something German and wheaty.
But since you were nice, I'll let you in on the real reason the troika is acting so harshly with Greece:
The Germans and Europe in general are still mad about Greece winning and ruining Euro 2004.
Well, no, there are issues with the actual EU institutions that go beyond mere monetary matters. At the same time I suppose I'd say that the EMU issues are currently the biggest problem by far. Perhaps an end to the Euro is the answer, but that would not, in and of itself, satisfy me. A redrawing of the institutions themselves would be necessary. Until people feel like they have a democratic stake and say in Europe they will not identify with it. No one cares who their MEP is since they have so little power.
More democracy in the EU probably means a closer union and a sacrifice of further national sovereignty. I'd take that, if it was properly implemented. Problem is that such things would have to be voted on, and there's no way the people of Europe would vote for closer Union and less sovereignty, neither before, nor especially after, this Greek fiasco. So where does that leave us?
But this is kind of getting off-topic from the Greek issue at hand.
Say what you want about him but he certainly nailed it.
PdotMichael
Banned
Because of its cultural history is it impossible for Greece to etablish a working tax system. Sure.
What an racist idiot you are.
Here's the ballot. No is on top!
Looking at the program my hand cannot go to yes. Let's see what happens...
Could you please translate the full text?
Here's the ballot. No is on top!
Looking at the program my hand cannot go to yes. Let's see what happens...
Is there a translation available?
Frustrated_me
Member
Ahh I see, thanks. I wasn't sure if you mean the issues from the past decade or so or dating back to Istanbul/Constantinople.
Yes?
Thanks.
In all seriousness Turkey really is the last thing Greece should be concerned with at the moment. Turkey has their own issues to deal with in their southern border and I don't think any military action would be taken as a) it would be seen as an offensive action and b) both are NATO members.
Osiris
I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
Friedman hated currency pegs/fixed exchange systems. FREE MARKET!
Coriolanus
Banned
Both parts is a bit of a surprise.
While quite likely true, that appears far too much of a political hot potato to be thrown in with the others right now.
While quite likely true, that appears far too much of a political hot potato to be thrown in with the others right now.
I know dude, it's always someone else fault right? And I don't have to make any effort, the Greek and their government are doing it for me. The way Syriza has conducted this negotiation is worse than a bunch of 5 year olds.
Never seen a government being so stupid in my life. I wonder what the Greek people will be voting on the 5th. A vote on troika proposal that expire tomorrow? Does anyone know?
Nice to see that the Greek people will have sufficient time to debate on the yes and no answer to a question that no one has put forward. I mean they will have like 5 days to vote in a pointless referendum, that will cost the country millions for nothing. A perfect example to the world to show how the country has been run in the past. Burning millions for no reason
lmao, what the hell, that proposal is not on the table anymore. That was for the 2nd bailout program and that program expires tomorrow.
Oh I'm greek btw.
And once again, you failed to see the point. I have reached the point where I believe you are borderline retarded.
I mean this insult-free, as far as that's possible. Your argumentation is almost logic-free.
My point was, and I'll say it one last time:
There people didn't trust the government.
The people exploited an easily exploitable system.
Nothing was done by the parties to combat either problem.
THIS IS POLITICAL SCIENCES 101.
So Tsipras really breaks the constitution to let the people vote on a proposal that doesn´t even exist anymore.
Reminds me of this phrase.
Reminds me of this phrase.
MonorailCat
Member
Most Greeks won't even be able to understand these documents, especially in the limited time given. Are they even handing out translated versions of these proposals in advance? This is all ridiculous. What are they doing...
CyclopsRock
Member
Well, if hardly any one wants it, I think I know where that leaves us! And whilst it's off topic directly, the fate of the Eurozone, the EU and Greece are all entwined in this issue.
Coriolanus
Banned
The problem is precisely that they are the only ones being asked to live with the consequences, and have already lived with them for five years. To no avail.
PdotMichael
Banned
That the Greeks don't have a corruption and paying taxes genes somewhere is obviously.
But history is never an excuse for not fixing a broken system.
There is not much to discuss about that topic. But now I slowly understand why that system is still broken in Greece.
And who is responsible for this? Say it.
ClosingADoor
Member
I guess most will just see it as:
No - We reject the document and leave the Euro
Yes - We keep the Euro
After that we'll have to see if the Eurogroup and others even want to accept a deal with the current Greek government. Might be better if they just resign after a Yes vote. Although I hate to see even more delays and uncertainty from that.
How about voting in a government that does something about that corruption. Might be a start.
Osiris
I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
At no point has Tsipras wanted the greek people to understand what's happening, to do so would be to expose the fact that their election promises were ultimately undeliverable as they relied on making demands of 3rd parties with their own interests and political goals.
Everything the Greek contingent has done this week has been a panicked CYA to hide this fact and try and protect the government going forward.
And it's the Germans the Greeks are mad at, lol.
They've been living with harsh austerity for five years, with an economy shrunk by 25% and with 25% unemployment rate to show for it. They'll understand just fine, i'm sure.
Theonik
Member
I don't think it is necessarily a reasonable concern. The trouble is that for a lot of Greeks convincing them of this would be nigh impossible. It is a very very delicate matter. The 70s are very recent. Just look at how long and hard Britain and France fought to ensure that German unification could not and should not under any circumstance happen. They kept such matters under wraps but even with Germany in NATO and a peaceful ally of theirs they would not accept it on fears of the fourth Reich. It's easy to laugh before you start putting matters into perspective.
And this is before even considering that Greece and Turkey still have strained foreign relations, territorial disputes, territorial water/airspace disputes. (which Turkey has put forth as a casus belli). Things can be so strained that you have near weekly airspace disputes with Turkish military aircraft and mock dogfights. After 2009, there has been mounting escalation of such incidents.
Not only that, they are voting on a proposal in 6 days, that expires tomorrow....I mean wtf? And this is suppose to be a government of a country that has 11 million people. Total joke really. None will touch Greece with a barge pool with this government in power. Total lunatics running the show.
Yes: accept an offer that is not vaild anymore
No: send a deligation to re-negotiate (alone because the other side left the table already)
Coriolanus
Banned
Which is why they just ousted Pasok and went in a bold new direction. Attacking corruption and tax evaders was one of syriza's campaign promisses.
"but nothing was done!".
True. alas, they have had far bigger fish to fry in these turbulent times.
Coming up next: even more radical parties.
Napalm_Frank
Member
EU would be so much better off without euro. Sadly the disaster with latter will probably have catastrophic results on the former.
If Greece wants to keep the euro there are only two outcomes. Either their standard of living, worker rights ect will be decimated or the other EZ members have to pay the bills till the end of time. The latter of course would be pretty standard if EZ was ever to become a true "United States of Europe" with federal taxing ect. but I doubt anyone wants to have close ties with a broken state like Greece. If they had the Drackma all along they would not have seen such an insane economic "growth" but the shock would have been so much smaller.
What surprises me is that apparently vast majority of greeks wants to keep the euro. That is fine but do they know what that entails? Are the greeks ready for more austerity for who knows how many years and/or give the EZ complete control over their financial matters?
I also have to thank our local governments in Finland for putting huge amounts of money into this mess for no good reason. German banks laughing all the way, we so deserve all the shit coming our way. I'm so jealous of Sweden right now who had the brains to stay out of this madhouse.
I feel for the Greek population.
If Greece wants to keep the euro there are only two outcomes. Either their standard of living, worker rights ect will be decimated or the other EZ members have to pay the bills till the end of time. The latter of course would be pretty standard if EZ was ever to become a true "United States of Europe" with federal taxing ect. but I doubt anyone wants to have close ties with a broken state like Greece. If they had the Drackma all along they would not have seen such an insane economic "growth" but the shock would have been so much smaller.
What surprises me is that apparently vast majority of greeks wants to keep the euro. That is fine but do they know what that entails? Are the greeks ready for more austerity for who knows how many years and/or give the EZ complete control over their financial matters?
I also have to thank our local governments in Finland for putting huge amounts of money into this mess for no good reason. German banks laughing all the way, we so deserve all the shit coming our way. I'm so jealous of Sweden right now who had the brains to stay out of this madhouse.
I feel for the Greek population.
ClosingADoor
Member
While they had tons of other stuff to work in, it isn't like you can only focus on one task at a time as a government. You have a whole taxation department that can be instructed to crack down on those things. As far as I know, that didn't happen, or at least not yet or too little.
And that does not excuse the decades before where they didn't vote for such parties because times were better.
Theonik
Member
Greece had been politically stagnant for several decades at that point. It's hardly surprising either, that phenomenon can be seen in a large majority of western developed nations. In the first place voters are risk averse when times are good, and the status quo firmly rooted.
The crisis and the complete clusterfuck that ensued was a necessary wake-up call to the Greek voter to wake up and smell the ashes so to speak.
petran79
Banned
Relations between Greece and Turkey are actually much better than between Japan, China and both Koreas
But one never knows when tensions may rise. We dont have the Swiss and Canadians as neighbours unfortunately
My words exactly!
Member
I am silently following this thread and the previous one, rolling my eyes countless times at the neoliberal posts that really do not know what they are talking about... Even citing Benizelos or Samara's false arguments like they are true...
What is more i see the Greek - Turkish tension matter being laughed at, and this, coming from people who believed that Saddam from the other end of the world was a threat to US... oh how ironic...
Anyway about the Turkey "threat", sorry to burst your bubble but yes it could be real.
- When the chief of the Turkish Military openly disputes the dominionship of 70 greek islands, saying they belong to mother Turkey
- When Ergogan and Davoutoglu openly promote muslims in the Balcans (Albania, Bulgaria, Skopje) and reminisce the Ottoman Empire
- When Turkey's slavers are behind most of the refugee waves that are unleashed in the Mediterranean sea, equipping them and selling them boats
- Imia and Cyprus are only the tip of the iceberg...
- When Western Thracia is beeing manipulated in such a way to arise a minority issue with the greek or muslim community there, present them as Turks.
- When bridgehead machines were bought in droves by the Turkish Army a few years ago, guess where they can only be used... (Evros river in West Thracia)
- When Turkey's military budget and research is gigantic and aims for complete autonomy by 2023
Aside all the above, the elephant in the room: Ethnic disputes aside, there is a LOT of money to be made on oil located in the Aegean region.
P.S. Make no mistake i am not saying that we should got to war or sth ridiculous, just that casually dismissing the threat is really stupid. It all has to do with the people in charge and not Turkish people, who we have nothing to part with
What is more i see the Greek - Turkish tension matter being laughed at, and this, coming from people who believed that Saddam from the other end of the world was a threat to US... oh how ironic...
Anyway about the Turkey "threat", sorry to burst your bubble but yes it could be real.
- When the chief of the Turkish Military openly disputes the dominionship of 70 greek islands, saying they belong to mother Turkey
- When Ergogan and Davoutoglu openly promote muslims in the Balcans (Albania, Bulgaria, Skopje) and reminisce the Ottoman Empire
- When Turkey's slavers are behind most of the refugee waves that are unleashed in the Mediterranean sea, equipping them and selling them boats
- Imia and Cyprus are only the tip of the iceberg...
- When Western Thracia is beeing manipulated in such a way to arise a minority issue with the greek or muslim community there, present them as Turks.
- When bridgehead machines were bought in droves by the Turkish Army a few years ago, guess where they can only be used... (Evros river in West Thracia)
- When Turkey's military budget and research is gigantic and aims for complete autonomy by 2023
Aside all the above, the elephant in the room: Ethnic disputes aside, there is a LOT of money to be made on oil located in the Aegean region.
P.S. Make no mistake i am not saying that we should got to war or sth ridiculous, just that casually dismissing the threat is really stupid. It all has to do with the people in charge and not Turkish people, who we have nothing to part with
I've been following this pretty closely the last few weeks, and if anyone comes across as incompetent it's the troika. Syriza tried, but it's obvious that the troika is trying to force them out of office, and if they pull the offer off the table now it just shows how insincere they were from the beginning. I think Krugman is spot on in his analysis of this clusterfuck.
"Fuck democracy, money rules" is the message we're being given here.
NonexistentK
Member
as a Turkish/American I send my deepest sympathies to my fellow Greek brothers & sisters. They have showed their solidarity with us when we were hit the '99 earthquake (which led to "earthquake diplomacy") and now it's our time.
Frustrated_me
Member
ClosingADoor
Member
I think it can easily be interpreted both ways. We just don't know what everyones motivations are. If you support Syriza, you can see it like they tried their best and the Troika never wanted to help. If you are more in line with the Troika, it is easy to see Syriza as incompetent or even sabotaging the negotiations.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
- Locked