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[anonymous_abc]

Why would they attack Greece when it would be cheaper to buy up large parts of it

You realise I meant petran's statement as being ridiculous, not yours.
Sorry if it wasn't obvious.

 

[jorma]

Wait, people Believe Turkey will attack Greece if they lover the military budget?

Hah ah haha ha ah

hah a









ha

There are people who think Russia will attack Sweden unless we spend billions on increasing the defense budget and join NATO. Seriously. It's not that unfeasible to think like this, and while i do think everyone should cut military spending and do something more constructive with the money, it's not like the Greek are unique in that regard.

 

[anonymous_abc]

There are people who think Russia will attack Sweden unless we spend billions on defense and join NATO.

The two aren't really comparable.

Russia >>>> Turkey and Turkey & Greece are both in NATO.

 

[gutter_trash]

Greece will quit the Euro and join the Putin family

 

[Theonik]

You realise I meant petran's statement as being ridiculous, not yours.
Sorry if it wasn't obvious.

Ridiculous or not this is a very touchy and emotionally charged topic in Greece which is why every political power is scared to address it. Except for manipulating it for easy votes.

 

[jorma]

The two aren't really comparable.

Russia >>>> Turkey and Turkey & Greece are both in NATO.

The idea is equally ludicrous.

 

[oti]

No, seriously. Don't try to understand Greece-Turkey. Just don't. It doesn't make sense, it's purely emotional.

 

[Osiris]

No, seriously. Don't try to understand Greece-Turkey. Just don't. It doesn't make sense, it's purely emotional.

That kind of applies to Greece's whole handling of this affair IMO, emotional and lacking rationality.

 

[EloKa]

So if Turkey would invade as soon as greece might reduce their military spending ... does this imply that Germany isn't the bad guy for this scenario?

 

[PumpkinSpice]

No, seriously. Don't try to understand Greece-Turkey. Just don't. It doesn't make sense, it's purely emotional.

It's not hard to understand. They hate each other after hundreds of years of dominance by one and more recently border disputes.

 

[Coriolanus]

That kind of applies to Greece's whole handling of this affair IMO, emotional and lacking rationality.

All sides. You should never forget that the creditors are insisting on measures that have repeatedly failed.

 

[gutter_trash]

if only Greece chose to be Catholic instead of Orthodox, Turkey would never have invaded, they scared of the power of the Vatican back then,

The only part of Greece that was never taken over by Turkey were some Western islands that were lol Catholic

 

[Theonik]

The only part of Greece that was never taken over by Turkey were some Western islands that were lol Catholic

The parts of Greece that weren't taken by Turkey were taken by its catholic allies during the second crusade

 

[Cromat]

That would've been the best thing for Greece, yes. Would've destroyed the Euro at the time, however.

In hindsight, it wouldn't have, since the contagion that was so feared at the time happened anyway, and was only fixed when the ECB agreed to act as a lender of last resort.

It would have also been best for the creditors: they ended up pumping more money into Greece which they will likely never see again now anyway. Greeks have had to endure hell for 4 years just to end up most likely defaulting and leaving the Euro anyway. An exit would have been tough but devaluation would have put Greece on the road to recovery by now. The prolonged crisis also poisoned the relationship between the sides to the point of breakdown, and preoccupied the minds of European leaders at a time when they are facing other tough challenges such as Russia, Islamic extremism, immigration, possibility of a British exit, national separatist movements and so forth.

This is all hindsight admittedly. At the time, the thought that the Euro should forever be made irreversible made sense. But now it looks like that Greece will exit anyway, despite the high costs invested thus far.

 

[Glasshole]

No, seriously. Don't try to understand Greece-Turkey. Just don't. It doesn't make sense, it's purely emotional.

Yeah let's try to downplay the deaths of soldiers and fighter pilots in peace times.

Let's forget that they took northern cyprus in the most cowardly manner and slaughtered a lot of people.

I mean it's been over 40 years. That's ages man.

I swear it was just like yesterday when I had to drive to Kephalonia to attend the funeral of my friend who was practically shot down in greek airspace by a a turkish jet. But again, that was 10 years ago. Ages!

 

[Coriolanus]

This is all hindsight admittedly. At the time, the thought that the Euro should forever be made irreversible made sense. But now it looks like that Greece will exit anyway, despite the high costs invested thus far.

I see. The other viewpoint i saw presented around was that the greek bailout was also the excuse the other countries found to sell the bank bailouts to their voter bases, which would've most likely gone rabid if they'd told them they were saving financial behemots that fucked up. Euro unity and allathat.

 

[Theonik]

See? Can of worms. Don't even go there.

 

[PeskyToaster]

We already lost Constantinople to the Turks and now they will finally complete their destruction of the Byzantines. Who will stop the Muslim hordes from descending upon Christendom!!!!! Francis is about to flex those Crusade calling powers.

 

[oti]

Yeah let's try to downplay the deaths of soldiers and fighter pilots in peace times.

Let's forget that they took northern cyprus in the most cowardly manner and slaughtered a lot of people.

I mean it's been over 40 years. That's ages man.

I swear it was just like yesterday when I had to drive to Kephalonia to attend the funeral of my friend who was practically shot down in greek airspace by a a turkish jet. But again, that was 10 years ago. Ages!

I'm sorry man, didn't mean it like that. All I'm saying is that from an outside perspective Greece's fear of being attacked by Turkey can sound ridiculous. I'm not saying Greece shouldn't be afraid of Turkey, not at all.

 

[Glasshole]

So based on your nonsesical logic the reason why the Greeks aren't paying taxes is because they don't know if the state would use that money to kill palestinians?

And indeed you can only talk in absolutes if not paying taxes and corruption damage a country like Greece in the way it did in the past decades.

Seldom have I met anyone as dense as you seem to be.

So either you have never heard about what an analogy is (seeing as you failed to recognize it, since the idea of greek tax money killing palestinians. Fyi, I used this analogy because I didn't want to play the third reich card), or you ran out of arguments and read something that I've never said, leading this discussion ad absurdum.

Either way, you seem not to understand the most basic of principles and you're wasting my time and energy. Off to the blacklist with you to the other morons.

 

[Osiris]

See? Can of worms. Don't even go there.

Better to open that can of worms and deal with it than to spend 400bln Euros on a military you can't afford.

At some point, Greece, both it's government and it's people need to realize you've been spending too much and you need to balance the books, properly (not cook them).

That's what the creditor proposals have been about, bringing some reality to a nation that, judging by it's own counter-proposals, is living in cloud cuckoo land.

 

[Frustrated_me]

lol @ Turkey invading Greece..

I think Turkey has enough problems with their borders in the south to start something (anything) with Greece. That would not only be extremely unlikely but also super dumb, even for Erdogan's standards.

 

[Glasshole]

I'm sorry man, didn't mean it like that. All I'm saying is that from an outside perspective Greece's fear of being attacked by Turkey can sound ridiculous. I'm not saying Greece shouldn't be afraid of Turkey, not at all.

Apology accepted.

I pity all those fools who think war is not possible in this day and age. Fools who think the movement of borders is outlandish and a strange thought altogether.

What is happening in Ukraine as the world is just watching and waiting what will happen? Why is the majority of northern cyprus inhabitants settlers from the mainland who even alienate the original cyprus turks?

Sorry to burst anyone's bubble, but anyone who believes history is incapable of repeating and we've learned our lessons from the past is an idiot. We didn't even learn our lesson from the banking crisis from a few years ago.

 

[jimi_dini]

All sides. You should never forget that the creditors are insisting on measures that have repeatedly failed.

And what do you call that behaviour?

Insanity.

Repeating the same stuff over and over again and expecting different results.

"Let's save money by lowering wages and firing people, that will surely be a great thing for the economy. Oh, it didn't. It made the situation worse. So let's save money by lowering wages and firing people, that will surely be a great thing for the economy. Oh, it didn't. It made the situation worse...." Rinse and repeat.

Better to open that can of worms and deal with it than to spend 400bln Euros on a military you can't afford.

At some point, Greece, both it's government and it's people need to realize you've been spending too much and you need to balance the books, properly (not cook them).

http://archive.defensenews.com/arti...e-Germany-Pressured-Greece-Avoid-Defense-Cuts

France and Germany put a priority on maintaining arms deals after the 2008 financial crisis, rather than see Greece cut spending that would hit their defense companies, European member of parliament Daniel Cohn-Bendit said March 5.

 

[Theonik]

Better to open that can of worms and deal with it than to spend 400bln Euros on a military you can't afford.

At some point, Greece, both it's government and it's people need to realize you've been spending too much and you need to balance the books, properly (not cook them).

That's what the creditor proposals have been about, bringing some reality to a nation that, judging by it's own counter-proposals, is living in cloud cuckoo land.

The creditors also want a stable government. If anything is going to work out. Adjustment in certain areas must be eased in or you risk going back to square one. If the creditors had realised this the previous government wouldn't have collapsed on itself and they wouldn't have had to deal with Syriza right now.

Spoiler

Samaras was an incompetent hack so perhaps this would have been inevitable

Unless of course the creditors would like to suggest that Greece is not a democracy.

 

[operon]

You realise I meant petran's statement as being ridiculous, not yours.
Sorry if it wasn't obvious.

No worries

 

[Nikodemos]

Unless of course the creditors would like to suggest that Greece is not a democracy.

I'm pretty certain the creditors would have prefered for Greece not to be a democracy.

 

[Osiris]

France and Germany put a priority on maintaining arms deals after the 2008 financial crisis, rather than see Greece cut spending that would hit their defense companies, European member of parliament Daniel Cohn-Bendit said March 5.

A claim denied by the Greek Defense Minister, Panos Beglitis in 2010.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Better to open that can of worms and deal with it than to spend 400bln Euros on a military you can't afford.

Aaah, so that's Greece's plan! They're going to invade the US!

 

[oti]

Aaah, so that's Greece's plan! They're going to invade the US!

US Gyros is an insult to all of us Greeks so yes that's the plan

 

[Coriolanus]

Better to open that can of worms and deal with it than to spend 400bln Euros on a military you can't afford.

At some point, Greece, both it's government and it's people need to realize you've been spending too much and you need to balance the books, properly (not cook them).

That's what the creditor proposals have been about, bringing some reality to a nation that, judging by it's own counter-proposals, is living in cloud cuckoo land.

If you're seriously implying that they haven't already done massive cuts, i am sorry to say that you're living in cuckoo land.

Which, coincidentally, you'd also have to be to think that that's the goal of the creditors.

Also, it's 400 millions, not billions. Is it a habit of the cuckoo land to add three zeroes to sums just for kicks?

 

[Griss]

I keep thinking the 'Strap yourself in, Europe - it's gonna get hot' thread is about this crisis, lol.

And yes, that Juncker speech shows that it's getting pretty hot.

 

[Theonik]

US Gyros is an insult to all of us Greeks so yes that's the plan

Strategic plans have been made to strike major US gyros processing facilities.

 

[Glasshole]

I keep thinking the 'Strap yourself in, Europe - it's gonna get hot' thread is about this crisis, lol.

And yes, that Juncker speech shows that it's getting pretty hot.

Juncker's speech about his tragic betrayal surely wasn't as hot as the people's who set themselves on fire to commit suicide in Athens.

I have very limited sympathy with Juncker.

 

[Joni]

With Turkey as neighbour this amounts to suicide

Turkey's military budget is the 10th largest in the world. They are not impressed by Greece's current military budget either.

 

[F1Fan]

Well I guess another default coming up tomorrow. That will make it 6 times they have now defaulted in the last 189 years. Here is an interesting piece from an online article:

The combined length of period under which Greece was in default during the modern era totaled 90 years, or approximately 50% of the total period that the country has been independent.

LINK

Something is serious wrong with their culture and the government they vote to put in place. Time after time, they get into serious dept. And looking at the current amateurish government and how they dealt with the current issues just highlights their problems. Calling a referendum on something, which none even knows anything about, 5 days after the financial deadline is clearly a joke of some sort.

I guess the EU will now have to start handing out even more money, food etc, to stop them from starving. How did they manage to get them self in such a mess....unbelievable. It will make austerity look like a holiday paradise after they default.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Well I guess another default coming up tomorrow. That will make it 6 times they have now defaulted in the last 189 years. Here is an interesting piece from an online article:



LINK

Something is serious wrong with their culture and the government they vote to put in place. Time after time, they get into serious dept. And looking at the current amateurish government and how they dealt with the current issues just highlights their problems. Calling a referendum on something, which none even knows anything about, 5 days after the financial deadline is clearly a joke of some sort.

I guess the EU will now have to start handing out even more money, food etc, to stop them from starving. How did they manage to get them self in such a mess....unbelievable. It will make austerity look like a holiday paradise after they default.

Yeah being under a dictatorship didn't do it any good. Did you make an effort?

 

[darkwing]

is there a Youtube video that explains the current crisis?

 

[GeekyDad]

Please try to avoid the general fallacies pertaining to "lazy dirty smelly greeks, they didn't do nothing" and that sort of thing.

How about lazy, dirty, smelly American investment bankers who got Greece into this mess in the first place.

 

[Griss]

Juncker's speech about his tragic betrayal surely wasn't as hot as the people's who set themselves on fire to commit suicide in Athens.

I have very limited sympathy with Juncker.

It's nice for Juncker that you have limited sympathy with him. I have none.

I like how Krugman put it. The troika offered the 'reverse Corleone' - An offer you can't accept. Or perhaps it was the Michael Corleone - 'My offer, Senator, is nothing.'

If you try to force a government out of office with an unacceptable deal so that you can get a set of pliant yes-men you run the risk of exactly this kind of chaos happening. Unless they really, REALLY believe that these offers went far enough or that austerity has been working, in which case they are delusional and incompetent.

I remember studying the EU as part of EU Law studies for my law degree. The cracks in the edifice have always been so blatant - the democratic deficit at the heart of it, the issue of competing national interests in the areas of monetary and foreign policy, the lack of economic freedom for smaller nations when they run into trouble. All that has happened is that these cracks have been exposed. How can they now be ignored, now that we know where they can lead? How can one support the EU as currently constituted?

I'm someone who loves the idea of Europe and, in particular, loves the jurisprudence of European Law and its strong pro-human rights, pro-consumer stance. (Even if I think the result of the Van Gend en Loos decision should have been put to a vote in the first place.) I love the idea of the single market from a trade perspective, I love the free borders, I love the fact that the close union keeps war a distant memory. But the set-up as currently built is not functioning correctly, and no union that cuts another member adrift like this can be considered a true union.

 

[Glasshole]

It's nice for Juncker that you have limited sympathy with him. I have none.

I like how Krugman put it. The troika offered the 'reverse Corleone' - An offer you can't accept. Or perhaps it was the Michael Corleone - 'My offer, Senator, is nothing.'

If you try to force a government out of office with an unacceptable deal so that you can get a set of pliant yes-men you run the risk of exactly this kind of chaos happening. Unless they really, REALLY believe that these offers went far enough or that austerity has been working, in which case they are delusional and incompetent.

I remember studying the EU as part of EU Law studies for my law degree. The cracks in the edifice have always been so blatant - the democratic deficit at the heart of it, the issue of competing national interests in the areas of monetary and foreign policy, the lack of economic freedom for smaller nations when they run into trouble. All that has happened is that these cracks have been exposed. How can they now be ignored, now that we know where they can lead? How can one support the EU as currently constituted?

I'm someone who loves the idea of Europe and, in particular, loves the jurisprudence of European Law and its strong pro-human rights, pro-consumer stance. (Even if I think the result of the Van Gend en Loos decision should have been put to a vote in the first place.) I love the idea of the single market from a trade perspective, I love the free borders, I love the fact that the close union keeps war a distant memory. But the set-up as currently built is not functioning correctly, and no union that cuts another member adrift like this can be considered a true union.

Sir I would like to drink a beverage of your choosing with you.

 

[Caipirinha]

http://www.tovima.gr/en/article/?aid=717776

Nobel Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman has expressed his support for the Greek government’s decision to carry out a referendum next week in an article for the New York Times.

In his article Krugman begins by noting that “it has been obvious for some time that the creation of the euro was a terrible mistake” and that “Europe never had the preconditions for a successful single currency” before explaining how the creditor demands for harsh austerity have failed to yield the necessary result.

Mr. Krugman argued that despite carrying out budget cuts, raising taxes and reducing the public sector by 25%, which if all added up would be “more than enough to eliminate the original deficit and turn it into a large surplus”, the Greek economy collapsed “largely as a result of those very austerity measures, dragging revenues down with it”.

“The problem with Grexit has always been the risk of financial chaos, of a banking system disrupted by panicked withdrawals and of business hobbled both by banking troubles and by uncertainty over the legal status of debts. That’s why successive Greek governments have acceded to austerity demands, and why even Syriza, the ruling leftist coalition, was willing to accept the austerity that has already been imposed. All it asked for was, in effect, a standstill on further austerity” he added.

The economist then explained that the Greek people should vote “No” in Sunday’s referendum for three reasons: “First, we now know that ever-harsher austerity is a dead end: after five years Greece is in worse shape than ever. Second, much and perhaps most of the feared chaos from Grexit has already happened. With banks closed and capital controls imposed, there’s not that much more damage to be done. Finally, acceding to the troika’s ultimatum would represent the final abandonment of any pretense of Greek independence”.

 

[CyclopsRock]

I'm someone who loves the idea of Europe and, in particular, loves the jurisprudence of European Law and its strong pro-human rights, pro-consumer stance. (Even if I think the result of the Van Gend en Loos decision should have been put to a vote in the first place.) I love the idea of the single market from a trade perspective, I love the free borders, I love the fact that the close union keeps war a distant memory. But the set-up as currently built is not functioning correctly, and no union that cuts another member adrift like this can be considered a true union.

That sounds rather a lot like you like the EU but not the Eurozone, no? I mean, the UK has all the things you mentioned - free borders, free trade, no wars, pan-european jurisprudence etc. without being in lockstep with the rest of Europe's economies lest we either find ourselves priced out of the market or with tiny wages. I mean, we do find ourselves with tiny wages, but for different reasons...

 

[Arksy]

I can promise you that Turkey is literally the least of your worries.

 

[Skellig Gra]

What a mess this thing is. I really feel for the people in Greece, I just don't see any way out.

 

[CyclopsRock]

I like how Krugman is constantly referred to by his title, "Nobel Prize winning". Unlike, say, Hayek or Friedman, who more commonly get referred by their titles "Wankstain General". I mean, is it an important indicator of authority or not?

(I'll give you a hint: It's not.)

 

[Kathian]

Problem with the referendum is it was needed prior to now. Too late.

 

[Arksy]

I like how Krugman is constantly referred to by his title, "Nobel Prize winning". Unlike, say, Hayek or Friedman, who more commonly get referred by their titles "Wankstain General". I mean, is it an important indicator of authority or not?

(I'll give you a hint: It's not.)

I would love to see their analysis on this situation, though.

 

[Frustrated_me]

I can promise you that Turkey is literally the least of your worries.

Seriously. Like how is this even a thing?

 

[Hammer24]

Problem with the referendum is it was needed prior to now. Too late.

Problems with the referendum are:
a) its against the constitution
b) there is actually nothing to vote on. The EFSF money ends tomorrow, any new money for Greece would have to come from the ESM. That's actually why the Troika offer is off the table.

Are there any news yet on what the wording of the referendum will be?