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[F1Fan]

How about you stop spreading bullshit (don't know if you are lying on purpose) and actually look at the facts?

The problem is that Greece did a lot of reforms, horrible reforms. Which is what was asked for. The problems of Greek governance are just pretexts to justify those horrible reforms instead of ever being the point of the previous, currently discussed or future programs. Now, one can criticize the problems in Greek governments fine and all, but not use that to justify the huge problems in the eurozone and its horrible austerity problems and deflect that responsibility. It's really an attempt to hide one's incompetence and corruption by pointing elsewhere.

However it isn't wrong to notice the problems with the Greek state if you don't do that to hide or downplay the problems of the austerity policy that Greece followed by lying about their extend or consequences.

What bullshit was I talking about. The fact they had 113% debt to GDP. The fact that both Ireland and Portugal managed to deal with troika and their program successfully and no longer need bailouts? The fact that Greece is unable to successfully collect tax?

Last Greece counter-proposal was to sustain itself by collecting additional tax and everyone in the EU just rolled their eyes....

Funny old world, other EU countries seems to be able to take the troika medicine expect Greece. I wonder who is to blame for that....

The sad thing is, all this debt they accumulated over the years and they have nothing to show for it. Looking at some of the pictures of Greece and their cities. Looks like a 3rd world country....Amazing.

 

[Reuenthal]

Just a little question. Is there something Greece did wrong in the past 15 years? Or was and is everything a result of foreign forces and whatever small elite?

Don't project your black and white kind of thinking to others.

Overspending in public sector, corruption, bad tax collection, among others.

What bullshit was I talking about. The fact they had 113% debt to GDP. The fact that both Ireland and Portugal managed to deal with troika and their program successfully and no longer need bailouts? The fact that Greece is unable to successfully collect tax?

Last Greece counter-proposal was to sustain itself by collecting additional tax and everyone in the EU just rolled their eyes....

Funny old world, other EU countries seems to be able to take the troika medicine expect Greece. I wonder who is to blame for that....

The sad thing is, all this debt they accumulated over the years and they have nothing to show for it. Looking at some of the pictures of Greece and their cities. Looks like a 3rd world country....Amazing.

When it comes to health, dosage transforms medicine to poison. Even more so when the effect is negative to begin with.

Instead of looking at the evidence provided that the medicine given was not at all equal you choose to talk about Greece looking like a third world country and to ignore entirely anything of relevance about the consequences of the policy imposed on Greece. Well, the point isn't to convince you but to call out the bullshit that become cliche, so continue along.

 

[Ted Striker]

Bonuses to goverment pensions for warming up the car engine (for those who drove with their cars to work), using on-site cafeteria, for washing your hands, for working on computer, for being employed over 10 months in one job, 13th and 14th salary for Christmas and Eastern, bonus to salary for each year of finished highschool, for arriving to work on time, for sendin faxes etc.

Their social system was also heavily exploited, like on Zakynthos, a tiny island that somehow had 700 people drawing benefits for blindess.

Are you Greek?

 

[Wiktor]

Are you Greek?

No, just lived there for a while.
Are you saying all those are wrong? Because if it is, then it would be pretty damn scary to see so many medias in so many countries spread untrue information.

 

[PdotMichael]

Don't project your black and white kind of thinking to others.

Overspending in public sector, corruption, bad tax collection, among others.

Would you say that all the points are just factors of the crisis or even the main reasons?

 

[anonymous_abc]

Hey that looks reasonably formatted.

Spoiler

There it is then.

 

[Reuenthal]

Would you say that all the points are just factors of the crisis or even the main reasons?

What crisis? They are big reasons for the crisis that happened in 2010. Though the imperfections of the euro currency also played a role and not only with Greece as the cheap lending exasperated the problem. And of course the international crisis starting in USA. But for the most part Greek state's faults played a very major role causing Greece to be in the situation it was in 2009-10.

However the policies followed after that by the EU and IMF and imposed on Greece were extremely disastrous and horrible policy that did little to nothing to solve most of the problems of the Greek economy but exasperated them and made things comparable to more of the situations you find after wars than normal economy. We are talking about an enormous crisis. So for the crisis that happened since then, I can't but put a very major role to the troika and the European countries that were backers of that policy.

But shouldn't there been some cuts to follow the 2010 crisis? Well, it is a matter of scope, it proceeded far beyond necessary or sound economic logic and it is constantly and continually increasing. That and huge debt, constant negotiations, threats of Grexit, that is not how you treat any economy.

 

[ElTorro]

Funny that they are officially referring to a version of the proposal as "as published on the website".

Tells you something about how ordered and professional these negotiations have been conducted.

 

[Funky Papa]

Bonuses to goverment pensions for warming up the car engine (for those who drove with their cars to work), using on-site cafeteria, for washing your hands, for working on computer, for being employed over 10 months in one job, 13th and 14th salary for Christmas and Eastern, bonus to salary for each year of finished highschool, for arriving to work on time, for sendin faxes etc.

Their social system was also heavily exploited, like on Zakynthos, a tiny island that somehow had 700 people drawing benefits for blindess.

In all fairness, I believe the largest part of the tax fuckery is done by corporations and the elites.

The Greek are notorious for cheating the system, but at this precise moment, earning below the table may be the only thing allowing some families to subsist.

 

[nature boy]

Apparently, Tsipras to address the nation soon.

 

[Ted Striker]

No, just lived there for a while.
Are you saying all those are wrong? Because if it is, then it would be pretty damn scary to see so many medias in so many countries spread untrue information.

The bonuses were a practise used by governments to increase wages in certain parts of the public sector without raising all the wages of the public sector. 13th,14th salary is christmas and eastern bonuses ( i believe other countries employ similar bonuses for christmas and great holidays?).

The much famed blinds of Zakynthos was an example of corruption , the bribes to Greek officials by German and other foreign companies was another. Greeks don't have a monopoly on corruption.

 

[Ted Striker]

Apparently, Tsipras to address the nation soon.

What is he gonna say ? "People of Greece , i done fucked up ?"

 

[Machspeed007]

The bonuses were a practise used by governments to increase wages in certain parts of the public sector without raising all the wages of the public sector. 13th,14th salary is christmas and eastern bonuses ( i believe other countries employ similar bonuses for christmas and great holidays?).

Yes, I can confirm that this was common-place during the communist era in my country, 25 years ago (although not for "Christmas" as religion was banned from public discussion). Not anymore.

 

[ElTorro]

Apparently, Tsipras to address the nation soon.

He'll probably announce a new referendum to decide whether they should still have the referendum on Friday. That will give him some time to hang up on the next phone conference and reject his amended, non-existant proposal as an ultimatum and affront to democracy and dignity. In the meantime, Varoufakis will play some Ace Attorney and pretend to sue the EU over all the jokes they made of him not wearing a tie.

 

[Machspeed007]

What is he gonna say ? "People of Greece , i done fucked up ?"

Probably announcing that he started printing drahmas. And "don't panic!".

 

[Joni]

What is he gonna say ? "People of Greece , i done fucked up ?"

The mean Germans don't want to help us before the referendum.

 

[My words exactly!]

The corruption spoken above is true but the thing is, those mainly applied to civil servants. There are several cliques that had some ridiculous perks compared to the rest of the greek people.
Anecdotal evidence: i know a couple of people who got their pensions at age 45 (one of them is my neighbour and possibly the worst person i ever met) and the irony is that those two fucks have the nerve to be pro austerity at the same time, so as to not lose their pensions. Then at the same time complain that their (basic uneducation) children work for 3€/hour tops. Audacious pieces of meat...

Anyway, the greatest cause for the Greek deficit is goverment corruption and lack of forward thinking. Greece has tremendous agricultural potential, had its own heavy industry till 30 years ago, was self sufficient in many things. It also has rich subsoil and oil deposits hat stand idle (until they are bought cheaply by foreign enterprises from our politicians that is) and while being less than 0.2% of global population, Greece occupies 3% of the world's top scientists. Germany in particular swears by our doctors as far as i know.

P.S. One of the main differences between troika's proposition and Tsipra's/varoufakis original proposal last Monday was the taxation of businesses with profits that exceeded 0.5 million €. Why would troika be opposed to that and only ask for taxation of the lowest common denominators?

Also, one of the largest tax evasion scandals is that of the greek media mongers, almost all of them owe the state HUNDREDS millions of €. A law passed by the current government obliges them to pay otherwise their frequencies would be shut down. Add to that the reopening ERT (national TV channel) and you can see why the FUD is spread so maliciously. Even in this thread, people are surprised that NO is ahead, cause they rely on those biased media feedback .

 

[Machspeed007]

The corruption spoken above is true but the thing is, those mainly applied to civil servants. There are several cliques that had some ridiculous perks compared to the rest of the greek people.
Anecdotal evidence: i know a couple of people who got their pensions at age 45 (one of them is my neighbour and possibly the worst person i ever met) and the irony is that those two fucks have the nerve to be pro austerity at the same time, so as to not lose their pensions. Then at the same time complain that their (uneducated) children work for 3€/hour tops.

Anyway, the greatest cause for the Greek deficit is goverment corruption and lack of forward thinking. Greece has tremendous agricultural potential, had its own heavy industry till 30 years ago, was self sufficient in may things. It also has rich subsoil and oil deposits hat stand idle (until they are bought cheaply by foreign enterprises from our politicians that is)

P.S. One of the main differences between troika's proposition and Tsipra's/varoufakis original proposal last Monday was the taxation of businesses with profits that exceeded 0.5 million €. Why would troika be opposed to that and only ask for taxation of the lowest common denominators?

I agree with this post. The biggest problem Greece is facing is in fact not being able to sustain itself. This is entirely doable and not at all the fault of Germans.

 

[maquiladora]

What an absolute farce....

 

[Saya]

Let's say Greece defaults and starts using their new Drachma. What are the chances the culture of not paying taxes, lack of forward thinking, and government corruption suddenly will be in control? Would there be a good chance their current culture and ways of operating that set them on this path will just continue again but with with a new currency?

 

[Ted Striker]

I agree with this post. The biggest problem Greece is facing is in fact not being able to sustain itself. This is entirely doable and not at all the fault of Germans.

The huge debt ,Germans don't want to ease, plays a big part in this.

 

[SymbiantXenos]

So conceding the majority of what imf/ecb are asking for but at the same time still recommending a no vote on an old offer that isn't valid anymore?

VinceMcMahonrubbingear.gif

 

[Theonik]

Let's say Greece defaults and starts using their new Drachma. What are the chances the culture of not paying taxes, lack of forward thinking, and government corruption suddenly will be in control? Would there be a good chance their current culture and ways of operating that set them on this path will just continue again but with with a new currency?

Sure. But with their own currency it matters much less.

 

[Business]

In all fairnes, I believe the largest part of the tax fuckery is done by corporations and the elites.

The Greek are notorious for cheating the system, but at this precise moment, earning below the table may be the only thing allowing some families to subsist.

Tax fuckery is done at all levels in Greece. It doesn't matter what it is you do, you go to the dentist and you can be sure what you paid is not declared, you go to the hairdresser you pay 40 and they will make a receipt for 25 if you happen to ask for one. It happens constantly and it's widespread.

 

[nature boy]

Take with a huge grain of salt

https://twitter.com/Simon_Nixon/status/616199153006325760

Eurogroup source says believes Tsipras will cancel referendum today before EG meeting. Varoufakis raised possibility in call yesterday.

 

[Machspeed007]

The huge debt ,Germans don't want to ease, plays a big part in this.

There were already debt haircuts. This is already a bad message to those who also have debts to Germany.
Nevertheless, how can one guarantee that the Greeks don't borrow money again, even if the debt is eased? I mean, will they just keep asking and we'll borrow them without requiring any kind of reforms?

 

[Protome]

Take with a huge grain of salt

https://twitter.com/Simon_Nixon/status/616199153006325760

Isn't the whole point of the referendum political posturing for the party?
It'd be suicide to cancel it.

 

[SymbiantXenos]

Take with a huge grain of salt

https://twitter.com/Simon_Nixon/status/616199153006325760

Even if true, should never have gone ahead with it. Whatever tactic it was intended to be I think that the current Greek goverment is on borrowed time now.

 

[Theonik]

There were already debt haircuts. This is already a bad message to those who also have debts to Germany.
Nevertheless, how can one guarantee that the Greeks don't borrow money again, even if the debt is eased? I mean, will they just keep asking and we'll borrow them without requiring any kind of reforms?

ECB bonds

 

[Undead]

Isn't the whole point of the referendum political posturing for the party?
It'd be suicide to cancel it.

From what I've seen, it would be suicide to go ahead with it. Germany telling them a no vote means kicked out of EU and then he said if it's a yes vote then he will resign, he backed himself into a corner with the referendum and it showed.

 

[Negotiator]

Let's say Greece defaults and starts using their new Drachma. What are the chances the culture of not paying taxes, lack of forward thinking, and government corruption suddenly will be in control? Would there be a good chance their current culture and ways of operating that set them on this path will just continue again but with with a new currency?

If the new drachma is digital-only, then there won't be that much tax evasion.

It would be an interesting "experiment"...

On the other hand, nothing will change if Greece stays in the euro, unless the euro becomes a digital-only currency in the entire Eurozone (not just in Greece).

This is the biggest and the most important reform that is needed. Too bad almost nobody asks for it. Don't say that I didn't warn you.

 

[Ted Striker]

There were already debt haircuts. This is already a bad message to those who also have debts to Germany.
Nevertheless, how can one guarantee that the Greeks don't borrow money again, even if the debt is eased? I mean, will they just keep asking and we'll borrow them without requiring any kind of reforms?

Ethical economics at its finest. Screw logic and common sense.

 

[Hammer24]

Handelsblatt rumors:
- Eurogroup was very positive about new proposals, until Varoufakis took stage, his behavior was quoted as "brazen" (German: "dreist")
- they now see the new proposals as a delaying tactic, so the ECB doesn´t outright cut the current ELA credits

 

[Kathian]

Varoufakis clearly gaming everything. Even if he were being legit people no longer trust him. Needs to step down.

 

[Theonik]

Varoufakis clearly gaming everything. Even if he were being legit people no longer trust him. Needs to step down.

Maybe that's part of the nth dimensional chess.

Spoiler

Maybe Varoufakis isn't a politician and doesn't understand those politician things.

 

[Zoon]

I just saw an ad on TV about voting yes.Fucking disgusting.

 

[Funky Papa]

Or maybe he's done with the Eurogroup and the ECB's shit and is out to get the best possible deal for Greece, even if that means coming out as a bit of a dick.

Let's not pretend that Greece has not been done dirty by everybody else on the regular for the past years and got fuck all in return. Getting outraged by Varoufakis' maneuvering is hypocritical at best.

 

[Ted Striker]

I just saw an ad on TV about voting yes.Fucking disgusting.

SKAI channel?

 

[mnz]

I just saw an ad on TV about voting yes.Fucking disgusting.

Don't know how it is in Greece, but don't campaigns like that get free airtime? Both sides, of course.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

ECB bonds

ECB bonds should happen anyway, regardless of what happens in Greece, or in ten, twenty years down the line we're going to have the same problem when the next furthest Eurozone country from the Eurozone productivity average gets fucked by an overvalued currency relative to their economy - probably Portugal.

 

[Zoon]

SKAI channel?

both SKAI and STAR channel.

 

[Zoon]

Don't know how it is in Greece, but don't campaigns like that get free airtime? Both sides, of course.

I've seen only about voting yes but I'm betting 10000 drachmas that there won't be any about voting no

 

[Osiris]

LMAO, Paddy Power just decided to pay out early to those who bet on a Yes vote on Sunday, not that early payouts like this haven't bit them in the ass before (Arsenal to win! - oops!)

“Despite some polls suggesting it’s neck and neck, over the last few days we’ve seen enough to be convinced,” Paddy Power, Ireland’s largest bookmaker, said in an e-mail in Dublin on Wednesday. ‘‘In a race with two potential outcomes we’ve seen over 85 percent of money go one way and that’s massive.’’

 

[rokkerkory]

Greece once land of the spartans and other noble and strong warriors are now land of the weak.

 

[Ted Striker]

Greece once land of the spartans and other noble and strong warriors are now land of the weak.

Must be the estrogens in frappe we drink all day.

 

[Theonik]

both SKAI and STAR channel.

Hardly surprising considering the backers of Greek media.

ECB bonds should happen anyway, regardless of what happens in Greece, or in ten, twenty years down the line we're going to have the same problem when the next furthest Eurozone country from the Eurozone productivity average gets fucked by an overvalued currency relative to their economy - probably Portugal.

Sure. We might be looking at that much sooner.

 

[Hammer24]

Greece once land of the spartans and other noble and strong warriors are now land of the weak.

Ancient Default
The first recorded default in Greek history occurred in the fourth century B.C., when 13 Greek city states borrowed funds from the Temple of Delos. Most of the borrowers never made good on the loans and the temple took an 80% loss on its principal.

;-P

 

[mnz]

Schäuble just said that Papandreou wanted to hold a referendum in 2011 and they had a deal about it. He was gone the next day.

 

[chadskin]

AP: BREAKING: Council of Europe: Conditions of Greek referendum fall short of international standards.

Oops.

 

[Arksy]

What's going on? Someone bring me up to speed? The PM gave into creditor demands? That sounds like fucking suicide.