Support NeoGAF

[petran79]

German authorities protect a high ranked Greek official who was involved in Siemens case. Were he to confess, Germany would have to pay millions in reparations to Greece and a lot of German and Greek politicians would go to prison.
Those kind of people are elected, supported and decide the fates of millions of people.

Of course, the above only applies if the Greek government is stupid enough to set the drachma 1:1 with the Euro, which they're almost certainly not. If Argentina and Nigeria can manage it, I'm sure Greece can.

Argentina,Nigeria, even Venezuela had oil and resources. Greece has just fruits and vegetables. Time for a healthy nutrition everyone!

 

[Theonik]

Argentina,Nigeria, even Venezuela had oil and resources. Greece has just fruits and vegetables. Time for a healthy nutrition everyone!

National Feta reserves.

 

[oti]

National Feta reserves.

Sell the branding rights of our Gods.

Apple Zeus.
Microsoft Poseidon.
Sony Athena.

 

[Syriel]

Argentina,Nigeria, even Venezuela had oil and resources. Greece has just fruits and vegetables. Time for a healthy nutrition everyone!

National Feta reserves.

Sell the branding rights of our Gods.

You guys are joking, but Greece could (if it went it alone) establish itself as an information haven.

Think of it as the Switzerland of information. A country where Wikileaks and Bitcoin are welcomed and embraced by the government. It would have the advantage of being seen as a Western country, but not tied to Europe or the US.

The idea is out there, but crazier things have been proposed. And something like that would attract money and investments.

 

[Theonik]

You guys are joking, but Greece could (if it went it alone) establish itself as an information haven.

Think of it as the Switzerland of information. A country where Wikileaks and Bitcoin are welcomed and embraced by the government. It would have the advantage of being seen as a Western country, but not tied to Europe or the US.

The idea is out there, but crazier things have been proposed. And something like that would attract money and investments.

That is certainly an idea I could get behind. Pushing for deep electoral reforms would also be a nice direction. Swiss electoral practice would work in Greece.

 

[oti]

You guys are joking, but Greece could (if it went it alone) establish itself as an information haven.

Think of it as the Switzerland of information. A country where Wikileaks and Bitcoin are welcomed and embraced by the government. It would have the advantage of being seen as a Western country, but not tied to Europe or the US.

The idea is out there, but crazier things have been proposed. And something like that would attract money and investments.

Just the idea of a total reset is intriguing to be honest. Digital only currency, total democracy not bound by the interest of the EU and just a really modern nation overall.

But we're talking humans here, not guinea pigs.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Argentina,Nigeria, even Venezuela had oil and resources. Greece has just fruits and vegetables. Time for a healthy nutrition everyone!

Why do we still have people in the 21st century thinking a currency needs to be pegged to some sort of natural resource? It's painful every time. You're going to tell all the Greeks to buy gold next.

EDIT: lol Bitcoins dafuq we doing in here

 

[SmoothBrain]

If austerity implemented on Germany was bad (currently you have 5% unemployment IIRC) then how awful do you think the austerity on bath salts that was implemented on Greece was? The hugely negative results speak for themselves.

Try to think it less with you identifying with the leadership of your country vs Greece. Since after all you seem disappointed with the same leader following much less harsh but similar policy in your country. Do you think Greeks shouldn't hate Merkel and friends? I don't think you personally deserve to be targeted but the German leadership has harmed the livelihoods of millions.

The 5% excludes employees who don't earn enough for a living and need support from the state and people who are currently in some course to be able to find work again.

I'm not disappointed, but I don't like the way we are being portraid as the big winner of this crisis. There is a reason why we introduced minimum wage. Otherwise my father would still have to work for only 7.30€ an hour on 12hour shifts (it's 8,50€ now lol). I also disagree that german leadership has harmed anyone outside of germany this time . EU isn't a dictatorship and Greece shows that just now. It's easy to point the finger at someone, but at the end of the day, Greece itself is responsible for the current situation.

 

[Reuenthal]

The 5% excludes employees who don't earn enough for a living and need support from the state and people who are currently in some course to be able to find work again.

I'm not disappointed, but I don't like the way we are being portraid as the big winner of this crisis. There is a reason why we introduced minimum wage. Otherwise my father would still have to work for only 7.30€ an hour on 12hour shifts (it's 8,50€ now lol). I also disagree that german leadership has harmed anyone outside of germany this time . EU isn't a dictatorship and Greece shows that just now. It's easy to point the finger at someone, but at the end of the day, Greece itself is responsible for the current situation.

You can disagree, but you might need to support your disagreements with actual facts. Statistics, the economists, the IMF itself have said how the program has been a complete failure and has harmed the Greek people incredibly. You might not like that fact, due to misplaced pride, but a fact it is. You don't like reality because you are very prideful about your country (I would also describe this as nationalistic attitude), but you are not convincing anyone at all who cares about facts.

The huge and continually increasing austerity imposed on Greece had and has, and will continue to have so far it continues being implemented hugely detrimental effects on the country. Lets stop being extremely delusional and accept that.

EU isn't a dictatorship and Greece shows that just now. It's easy to point the finger at someone, but at the end of the day, Greece itself is responsible for the current situation.

Greeks want to stay in eurozone with a compromise that includes a debt haircut that makes it manageable. Economists, agree that the debt isn't manageable (I could bring you a list of Nobel winners for just one example). The troika and Germany leaders and other leaders of other European countries play dumb. Greeks want some limits to austerity in their economically devastatedd country, troika and Germany remain very cruel, regardless of the negative results to growth, the fact that it worsened Greece ability to repay its debt, nor did it help with the huge debt. Instead we have unbereable demands for increase in austerity that after implemented will be followed by even more increase in austerity and more devastating to the economy negotiations.

And really, because there is a huge outcry against the referendum and saying no will come along with a default which might well be a humanitarian catastrophe on at least the short term considering the complete lack of liquidity of the Greek banks. Great choice.

Greece itself is certainly partly responsible for the current situation. However, the EU, the IMF and Germany are also responsible for the consequences of their actions. Whether you like it or not. To add to that, even the voters of each country hold some smaller responsibility than their leadership, you included.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

So you at least agree with the assesment that Argentina helped hold up its new currency for ten years, something Greece might not be able to do. You haven't explained at all how you think Greece will make the switch and make sure the market doesn't devalue its currency.

Argentina was in a worse situation than Greece in effectively every way - they did not default in full, they ran a deficit in the immediate aftermath of the default, and they were restricted in the avenues they could pursue by United States courts. Argentina did not help hold up its new currency for ten years. It intervened more than normal using a tool that all countries use occasionally for about four years.

As for currencies, they don't have arbitrary values. Currencies are given value by the fact that they're usually the sole legal means of purchase in their respective to currency (and also because they're usually the sole legal means of paying taxes). You want drachmas so that you can buy Greek things and meet your obligations to the Greek government. Foreign markets will purchase drachmas either to buy Greek goods, pay Greek taxes, or to make Greek investments.

Foreign markets will buy Greek goods and make Greek investments when they are comparatively at least as well as off as if they'd done so when buying goods or making investments in other countries. Greece knows their own productivity rate. This is something that changes only very slowly over time. They therefore know roughly how many labour-hours it takes to produce a given good. They also know the European average productivity rate, and how many labour-hours it takes the average European to produce a given good. They therefore know how much cheaper their labour-hours have to be in comparison so that, to a foreign company, purchase of Greek goods is at least as good as other European goods.

This is literally economics 101.

 

[Theonik]

Why do we still have people in the 21st century thinking a currency needs to be pegged to some sort of natural resource? It's painful every time. You're going to tell all the Greeks to buy gold next.

EDIT: lol Bitcoins dafuq we doing in here

Well Fiat currency relies in the markets believing in the state. For a bankrupt nation, it might be less viable. So you want to transition from a commodity to fiat currency. That is if you are looking to trade.

 

[Aureon]

Greece itself is responsible for the current situation.

Greece is responsible for it's own situation as 2008.

The fuckery that has gone down since then basically amounts to blackmail and light commissioning from the troika, and it backfired so hard it's hard to imagine how it could've been worse - and no one is even dreaming of saying "Eh, yes, we fucked up".

And one of these people is Merkel.

 

[Funky Papa]

Greece itself is responsible for the current situation

The fact that this lie is so commonly heard among Germans never ceases to disturb me.

NO IT ISN'T.

Greece has only itself to blame for having shit tax revenue and corrupt officials at all levels of the government, but Germany and other countries exploited this situation and promoted it through decades of highly damaging business deals that continued uring the bailout. A bailout that it's been recognized as malignant and counterproductive by pretty much all the parties involved in it.

As a matter of fact, the early years of the bailout were designed not to rescue Greece, but the German banks. The country saw a loss of sovereignty while pushing for reforms that would allow foreign companies to profit from the nation's misery. The fact that Europe continued to sell super expensive military hardware to Greece to the count of over €1000 million in the midst of the bailout tells us as much.

Meanwhile, Germany, now standing as the dignified guardian of fiscal responsibility, didn't lift a finger when their banks heavily invested in Greece's sham economy despite the fact that everybody and their mother knew that Greece's accounting was a purely fantastical affair. Because money was too good. And then, when it mobilised the entire EU to "save Greece", they did so not to rescue its citizens and fix the economy, but to save its own economy from the greed of its own banks. German banks.

The European Union (but not Germany, apparently) is only starting to come to terms with the undeniable fact that austerity has done fuck all to improve Greece's situation. Not because they are ruled by inept policians, but because each of those cuts are spreading the rot instead of steming it.

 

[nature boy]

I thought yes had a majority?

https://twitter.com/MacroPolis_gr/status/616128964780785668

Prorata poll for @efysn
bef cap controls:
YES 30%
NO 57%
undecided 13%
after:
Yes 37%
No 46%
undecided 17%
#Greece #Greferendum

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Well Fiat currency relies in the markets believing in the state. For a bankrupt nation, it might be less viable. So you want to transition from a commodity to fiat currency. That is if you are looking to trade.

Yes and no. The stock of a fiat currency is given value by the amount of goods and the rate at which people want to buy them. However, governments can change the size of the stock of the fiat currency. This doesn't change their cumulative value, but it reduces the value of each individual currency unit. Then markets don't want to buy because they don't trust that the units they buy will continue to hold the same value in the future, which is different to not wanting to buy because they think the units they buy don't hold the right value now - these are slightly different problems.

However, a state that just defaulted is one of the most trustworthy you can see with respect to changing the stock of money; because it doesn't need to. Typically, states change that stock of money to reduce the value of their debts - if you owe £10,000, it can be easier to just make £10,000 worth less than pay it at the current rate. If Greece defaulted... it would have no debt, so no need to inflate its way out of debt. This is why if you look at all of the examples of the countries posted after defaults, they see inflation return to a more normal rate immediately after default.

 

[Theonik]

I thought yes had a majority?

https://twitter.com/MacroPolis_gr/status/616128964780785668

You thought wrong.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Why do we still have people in the 21st century thinking a currency needs to be pegged to some sort of natural resource? It's painful every time. You're going to tell all the Greeks to buy gold next.

EDIT: lol Bitcoins dafuq we doing in here

I don't think he meant about pegging it or having some Watermelon-Standard or something - rather that natural resources allow you to recover quicker because it's always sold in USD.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I don't think he meant about pegging it or having some Watermelon-Standard or something - rather that natural resources allow you to recover quicker because it's always sold in USD.

Yeah, and what happens if the oil market happens to boom when you exit your Euro-peg and enter an oil-peg? The whole reason we're in this situation is because Greece pegged their currency to [or rather, took up the currency of] a market which was not reflective of their own. Why does it seem like a sensible idea to immediately do that again?

 

[nature boy]

You thought wrong.

Previous polls were in favour of a deal, but it was before capital controls and the announcement of the referendum.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-break-bail-out-referendum-polls-suggest.html

 

[Theonik]

Previous polls were in favour of a deal, but it was before capital controls and the announcement of the referendum.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-break-bail-out-referendum-polls-suggest.html

I am aware of those 'polls'

 

[Sequence Six]

Sell the branding rights of our Gods.

Apple Zeus.
Microsoft Poseidon.
Sony Athena.

Nike Nike

I thought yes had a majority?

https://twitter.com/MacroPolis_gr/status/616128964780785668

It's been pretty interesting trying to keep up with which sources actually have what information when.

 

[Theonik]

Sell the branding rights of our Gods.

Apple Zeus.
Microsoft Poseidon.
Sony Athena.

They could already sue a number of companies for this but I think they should first sue the Roman Empire for basically ripping off their pantheon and writing systems.
And of course claim their royalties for that democracy thing.

 

[Reuenthal]

Considering Tsipras is arguing to vote No for stronger negotiation and a good deal in the eurozone which means making the debt more manageable. If No does come, and the other side does not budge and claim that Greece should exit the eurozone or accept an even worse deal, I am not sure what happens next from the Greek goverment.

Will there be another referendum for a default, drachma vs bad austerity deal?
Or will Tsipras just reject the deal himself and lead the country to a Grexit and take this referendum as answering the question? Of course there is also the possibility that a No might mean not even a bad deal being offered.

The above isn't to say that I think Yes is a better option, I consider the choices to be lose-lose.

 

[Theonik]

Considering Tsipras is arguing to vote No for stronger negotiation and a good deal in the eurozone which means making the debt more manageable. If No does come, and the other side does not budge and claim that Greece should exit the eurozone or accept an even worse deal, I am not sure what happens next from the Greek goverment.

Will there be another referendum for a default, drachma vs bad austerity deal?
Or will Tsipras just reject the deal himself and lead the country to a Grexit and take this referendum as answering the question? Of course there is also the possibility that a No might mean not even a bad deal being offered.

As of yesterday I am unable to reliably answer this question.

 

[Negotiator]

They could already sue a number of companies for this but I think they should first sue the Roman Empire for basically ripping off their pantheon and writing systems.
And of course claim their royalties for that democracy thing.

Sue Sony for God of War series.

 

[Reuenthal]

Checking for news I am seeing this:

http://www.ft.com/intl/fastft/353421: Tsipras prepared to accept all bailout conditions

Title is from Financial Times.

My comment is that I wonder what he is willing to agree about the debt.

 

[nature boy]

Edit: Beaten

 

[oti]

Is this a stealth Metal Gear Solid thread or what?

 

[East Lake]

Considering Tsipras is arguing to vote No for stronger negotiation and a good deal in the eurozone which means making the debt more manageable. If No does come, and the other side does not budge and claim that Greece should exit the eurozone or accept an even worse deal, I am not sure what happens next from the Greek goverment.

Will there be another referendum for a default, drachma vs bad austerity deal?
Or will Tsipras just reject the deal himself and lead the country to a Grexit and take this referendum as answering the question? Of course there is also the possibility that a No might mean not even a bad deal being offered.

The above isn't to say that I think Yes is a better option, I consider the choices to be lose-lose.

Here's an article on what it potentially might be like. It's worth saying up front Mohamed El-Erian think it's already pretty much over.

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-06-29/mohamed-el-erian-what-now-for-greece-

No vote. Tsipras wins, the creditors fuck off and the banks dry up bringing in the new currency. Short term economic pain at least.

Yes vote. Economy blows up under some other government anyway after the bank runs and capital controls. Who knows what the creditors do at that point.

 

[Theonik]

Is this a stealth Metal Gear Solid thread or what?

I blame Kojima for all this.

 

[nature boy]

Checking for news I am seeing this:

http://www.ft.com/intl/fastft/353421: Tsipras prepared to accept all bailout conditions

Title is from Financial Times.

My comment is that I wonder what he is willing to agree about the debt.

I wonder if he's even serious about accepting the offer and whether the more radical elements of the coalition will accept it.

 

[Ted Striker]

I blame Kojima for all this.

They'll resume negotiations ,strike a deal and after Yanis puts his signature, he'll put his hands on his face , pull a mask revealing he was Kojima all along and utter the words : "Did you rike it?"

 

[Osiris]

From the FT.com article:

Mr Tsipras' letter says Athens will accept all the reforms of his country's value-added tax system with one change: a special 30 per cent discount for Greek islands, many of which are in remote and difficult-to-supply regions, be maintained.

On the contentious issue of pension reform, Mr Tsipras requests that changes to move the retirement age to 67 by 2022 begin in October, rather than immediately. He also requests that a special "solidarity grant" awarded to poorer pensioners, which he agrees to phase out by December 2019, be phased out more slowly than creditors request.

"The Hellenic Republic is prepared to accept this staff-level agreement subject to the following amendments, additions or clarifications, as part of an extension of the expiring [bailout] program and the new [third] loan agreement for which a request was submitted today, Tuesday June 30th 2015," Mr Tsipras wrote.

 

[oti]

Cancelling the referendum would anger an entire generation of young unemployed Greeks.

 

[Funky Papa]

It would make reelection prospects... complicated.

 

[Hammer24]

Cancelling the referendum would anger an entire generation of young unemployed Greeks.

The latest poll (already quoted earlier in the thread) shows the same age split as before:
- strongest "no" camp with 57% are 18-34 year olds
- strongest "yes" camp with 40% are 55+ year olds

 

[F1Fan]

Greece is responsible for it's own situation as 2008.

The fuckery that has gone down since then basically amounts to blackmail and light commissioning from the troika, and it backfired so hard it's hard to imagine how it could've been worse - and no one is even dreaming of saying "Eh, yes, we fucked up".

And one of these people is Merkel.

Nope, Greece is pretty much responsible for it's own situation, even post 2008. You can't expect the troika to just give you money and then for Greece to change what they want themselves. Because that would never work. Greece proved that they can't run their own country to save their lives, their GPD debt in 2008 was astonishing, 113%, compare this to some other EU countries (UK 52%, Spain 40%, Portugal 71%, Germany 67%, France 68%.) Almost double the debt to many EU countries at the time.

Even post 2008 with austerity, Portugal, Ireland, were gven similar bailouts from the troika and they all managed to exit the bailout program last year, successfully managing to implement the program.

None is arguing that the austerity program was the best idea, but Greece utterly failed to implement anything. I mean it's been 7 years since 2008 and they are still having major problem collecting tax from normal people, something most countries have been doing successfully for decades and decades.

I mean just look at this past 5 months. Complete and utter shambles from Greece, they don't have any idea or plan on what they are going to do. They have been talking for 5 months and there is no plan anywhere. No plan A or B. Even if they exit the EU, what's the plan? Where is the 10 year plan, that shows the road ahead. What's happening now is, lets default and see what happens.

 

[oti]

The latest poll (already quoted earlier in the thread) shows the same age split as before:
- strongest "no" camp with 57% are 18-34 year olds
- strongest "yes" camp with 40% are 55+ year olds

The young want a future.
The old want their pension.

 

[Theonik]

The young want a future.
The old want their pension.

The old are deluding themselves that their pension isn't already gone.

 

[Osiris]

They have been talking for 5 months and there is no plan anywhere. No plan A or B.

I saw a great French tweet on this, it said basically "Greece have no Plan A, No Plan B, just a Systéme D".

Which pretty much aligns with their actions over the last two months, no action, just reaction.

Which is a stunningly bad method of running a country and an even more stunning method of dealing with the crisis.

 

[oti]

From what I have witnessed the people of Greece don't trust Tsipras anymore either. He started as this figure of hope but after months of swimming around not achieving anything he lost most of his support other than from the far left. It's not Tsipras vs. Eurozone, it's Greece vs. Eurozone. I mean that no one really cares about Tsipras anymore.

 

[Reuenthal]

Nope, Greece is pretty much responsible for it's own situation, even post 2008. You can't expect the troika to just give you money and then for Greece to change what they want themselves. Because that would never work. Greece proved that they can't run their own country to save their lives, their GPD debt in 2008 was astonishing, 113%, compare this to some other EU countries (UK 52%, Spain 40%, Portugal 71%, Germany 67%, France 68%.) Almost double the debt to many EU countries at the time.

Even post 2008 with austerity, Portugal, Ireland, (Spain not 100% sure) were given similar bailouts from the troika and they all managed to exit the bailout program last year, successfully managing to implement the program.

None is arguing that the austerity program was the best idea, but Greece utterly failed to implement anything. I mean it's been 7 years since 2008 and they are still having major problem collecting tax from normal people, something most countries have been doing successfully for decades and decades.

I mean just look at this past 5 months. Complete and utter shambles from Greece, they don't have any idea or plan on what they are going to do. They have been talking for 5 months and there is no plan anywhere. No plan A or B. Even if they exit the EU, what's the plan? Where is the 10 year plan, that shows the road ahead. What's happening now is, lets default and see what happens.

How about you stop spreading bullshit (don't know if you are lying on purpose) and actually look at the facts?

https://rwer.wordpress.com/2015/02/...xemplary-record-but-the-wrong-track-3-graphs/

The problem is that Greece did a lot of reforms, horrible reforms. Which is what was asked for. The problems of Greek governance are just pretexts to justify those horrible reforms instead of ever being the point of the previous, currently discussed or future programs. Now, one can criticize the problems in Greek governments fine and all, but not use that to justify the huge problems in the eurozone and its horrible austerity problems and deflect that responsibility. It's really an attempt to hide one's incompetence and corruption by pointing elsewhere.

However it isn't wrong to notice the problems with the Greek state, so far you are truthful, if you don't do that to hide or downplay the problems of the austerity policy that Greece followed by lying about its extend or consequences. However that isn't what happens often enough in these discussions. Personally I have seen the same lies a million times.

 

[Kathian]

The fact Greece is still making proposals despite the referendum tells you all you need to know about Tsipras and his government. Waste of time and just pissed his counterparts across Europe off.

 

[Wiktor]

Greece has only itself to blame for having shit tax revenue and corrupt officials at all levels of the government,

And handing out ridicoulous privileges to it's citizens. Greeks turned exploiting the system into an art form.

 

[nature boy]

https://twitter.com/SpiegelPeter/status/616180786581139456

Getting sig pushback from creditors on new @atsipras letter. #Greece still holding out on items amounting to "hundreds of millions" at least

So nothing new.

 

[Ted Striker]

And handing out ridicoulous privileges to it's citizens. Greeks turned exploiting the system into an art form.

What are these ridiculous privileges you're speaking off?

From what I have witnessed the people of Greece don't trust Tsipras anymore either. He started as this figure of hope but after months of swimming around not achieving anything he lost most of his support other than from the far left. It's not Tsipras vs. Eurozone, it's Greece vs. Eurozone. I mean that no one really cares about Tsipras anymore.

Get your facts straight , the far left never supported Tsipras.

 

[Osiris]

 

[oti]

Cats are #TeamNo

 

[PdotMichael]

Just a little question. Is there something Greece did wrong in the past 15 years? Or was and is everything a result of foreign forces and whatever small elite?

 

[Wiktor]

What are these ridiculous privileges you're speaking off?
.

Bonuses to goverment pensions for warming up the car engine (for those who drove with their cars to work), using on-site cafeteria, for washing your hands, for working on computer, for being employed over 10 months in one job, 13th and 14th salary for Christmas and Eastern, bonus to salary for each year of finished highschool, for arriving to work on time, for sendin faxes etc.

Their social system was also heavily exploited, like on Zakynthos, a tiny island that somehow had 700 people drawing benefits for blindess.