I don't know. But I don't get the impression Tsipras and Varoufakis know either.
Yesterdays poll suggests that the referendum will end in favor of the Euro. Should that happen, Syriza achieved absolutely nothing here other than pissing people off.
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Greece to hold referendum on austerity measures 5 July
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Yesterdays poll suggests that the referendum will end in favor of the Euro. Should that happen, Syriza achieved absolutely nothing here other than pissing people off.
Nikodemos
Member
The German economy and government. If you're not German, it's basically the richest European country extracting jizya from the rest of the Union (some of the poorest among) for the sin of not being superior Teutons and the privilege of being graced by the auspices of the Bundesbank and BVerfG.
These threads are always so predictable.
Ah the good old big bad germany is wanting to create the 4th reich excuse. So predictable.
Maybe it's the best you guys leave the euro so germany can't extract your jizya anymore.
It's predictable because it's true; Germany has reaped the benefits of the Euro currency and has so far been miserly when it comes to redistributing those benefits across the union.
Whether this is selfishness or just pig-headed adherence on the part of Merkel to the failed economics of austerity... who knows.
wat
Weird way to write Germany.
I mean, the problem was excessive inter-currency trade imbalances.
Two people (Actually, pretty much everyone) broke the rule, and one got the long-term benefit of it.
And the fault is with the one that had the deficit, and not the surplus?
uuuuuuuuuuuuuh.
And how is Germany responsible again for a decade of overspending in Greece and refusing to cut down cost in a meaningful way?
Nikodemos
Member
When the discourse of that parochialist hick Schäuble (and others of his ilk) is centered around morals rather than, you know, economics, allow me to wipe my arse with whatever 'advice' might emanate out of the current Bundeskabinett.
If they dont then you know they really are retarded fuck heads, and are just interested in fucking shit up.
PdotMichael
Banned
Make you think how much support Greece would have if they just said at some point: yeah, we fucked up please help us, instead of burning EU and German flags. I think the Times wrote something in that direction.
It couldn't be worse than now, where all EU states aren't on Greece's side.
It couldn't be worse than now, where all EU states aren't on Greece's side.
nature boy
Member
What about the Greeks and "we invented democracy"?
Cheap rhetoric can be found everywhere.
Ted Striker
Neo Member
Well, Germany didn't have any problem with Greece overspending to buy a shitload of german tanks, submarines and other military equipment for decades.
I'd argue that the Greece government has had 5 months to make it happen.
Don't really see how that is relevant. But it still remains: Greece spend more money than they had coming in. An unsustainable situation.
I am pretty sure that the IMF isn't out on destroying Greece, if you believe that. Well good luck...
The issue I have with Greece is their refusal to discuss leaving the Euro. Their new government I feel wants to either leave or get cheaper cash from its lenders. If they were honest about this I would have no issue but instead they seem to be choosing a deal or default.
Sign the deal and hold a referendum on leaving the Euro. If they leave they renegotiate the deal, otherwise they follow the deal.
Ah right because germany being in the euro has caused the greek state to fail. It has nothing to do with 20 years of corruption, over spending and clientelism.
How can you say that. Germans should show endless solidarity for Greeks while they burn our flag, call us nazis and despict our politicians in nazi uniforms.
Look at the spanish, portugese and irish. They acknowledged they fucked up and you never hear the same dumb rhetoric that we get from greece.
hobblygobbly
Member
So tired of people blaming Germany. Has Germany benefited? Yes. Did Germany cause it? No. The Greek government did. The Greek government's own actions did the spending but don't extrapolate that as an action by Germany just because it benefited from the actions of the Greek government. That's shifting the cause of the issue to Germany which is unfair because last I checked the Greek government isn't the German government and removing attention from the Greek government who are at the center of the issue. Please stop pretending that it wasn't Greece's own actions that caused it as many of you are doing.
And stop with the fourth reich rhetoric.
And stop with the fourth reich rhetoric.
Nikodemos
Member
Remember how back in, what was it, 2010, 2011? Papandreou (I think he was the chef guy at the time) suggested they halt procurement of the Type 214s because fuckall cash, the Germans were all "no, no, that's not a negotiable issue".
They weren't. But they have mishandled the Eurozone post-banking crisis.
Greece has made the changes asked of it. It lost a huge fraction of its output, cut huge amounts of spending, and now takes more in taxes than it spends. Wasn't that what Germany wanted? Fiscal discipline?
I just don't see how forcing more cuts on a Greek economy that's already been hacked back so much... how pushing more austerity even when we know objectively that it is counter productive... how is that the right thing?
How does that benefit anyone, ideologues like Merkel included?
Ted Striker
Neo Member
The usual cheap arguments. You know no one forced german or french bankers or whoever else to buy greek bonds those 20 years.
Yes and then Greece elected Syriza and they backtracked a lot of cuts that were demanded by the EU/IMF.
Don't really see how overspending for a decade or so is a cheap argument.
Nikodemos
Member
And they were the bankers, that is, they had the better knowledge of Greek internals. Even with cooked books, there was enough peripheral evidence to say no. When a poor fucker with no money goes to get a loan, the onus falls on the bank, as the party with more info, to refuse it as an unsound investment.
But honey badger don't care, honey badger don't give a shit.
Ted Striker
Neo Member
Yeah billions of euros spent for guns didn't increase Greece's debt at all.
I didn't comment about IMF so...
Someone should have. Then greece would have defaulted 2012 on US, Russian or Chinese debt.
So what you are saying is Germany forced greece to buy guns from them? Are you sure Greeks wouldn't just have bought guns somewhere else?
nature boy
Member
It's not just the measures. It's also some of the greek goverments' antics that build mistrust.
Overspending is overspending... whether you buy weapons from the Germans, make infrastructure improvements, pay pensions... it is still overspending. Not enough money comes in to cover the costs...
The Greece government chose to make that purchase.
Pretty much. The role the Greek media and populist politicians played in all of this is despicable. Sure, Bild wasn't exactly nice either, but if Greece provides them with nice pictures of protesters burning German flags, of course they're going to run with it.
German here. I'm really disgusted what our government and major media outlets currently do: The first one are only defending the interest of the banks while not having the balls to defy them. The second one is further deteriorating the solidarity with Greece by employing polemic and propaganda (fuck any tabloid in this matter). Of course Greece had her fair share in fucking the situation up with corruption and low taxes for the rich. But we, as EU, have let them into the EURO zone so it is ultimately our responsibility to burden. We allowed the policians and criminals from Goldman Sachs to deceive us, and now has the Greek population to bleed out for the mistakes of others? Give me a fucking break...
Theonik
Member
But the IMF aren't the ones supporting more Austerity. In fact they are one of the first to accept they dun goof'd. The EU on the other hand...
Ted Striker
Neo Member
I'm saying if "ethical" German governments cared about Greece's economy status they should maybe say :"Stop overspending to buy our crap!". I'm pointing out their hypocrisy.
From what I am reading in the Dutch media the IMF is pretty harsh in the cost cuts that neet to be made.
Nikodemos
Member
The German people are going to have a really shitty morning when they'll wake up one day and finally realise that their country has been slowly turning into a US-style corporatocracy. And it's been going on since the '90s.
They do have something to vote on. They got a final offer, an ulitmatum (that Merkel had the audacity to call "a very generous offer" even though she knew fully well that Syriza didn't have the political mandate to sign it), and that's what they'll vote on.
It seems obvious that the germans are shouting the loudest because they have the most to lose on a Grexit. I don't know that the greek goverment has a responsibility to keep propping up the dax at the cost of their own economy that has already shrunk a lot because of 'austerity measures'.
The argument that "you're in debt so you should shrink your economy so that we can keep expanding ours" might make sense to a moneylender, but it shouldn't be what the EU project is all about.
I'll almost certainly lose a shitload of money when the stockmarket opens tomorrow, but i don't think that Syriza had the repsonsibility to stop that from happening.
That's exactly what they are saying. Stop fucking overspending, reform your shit. All we got is a meme government with a comical tough guy finance minister and an incompetent prime minister.
And how is that Germany's responsibility again?
Greece is responsible for their budget.
And now we are at the point that it isn't sustainable: people don't want to lend money unless there are meaningful reforms.
You do realize each goverment is responsible for their own budget, right?
Yeah one day we'll wake up wanting to have the socialist paradise half of our country has had from 1945 to 1990.
Valkyria
Banned
If the northern european posting on this thread are a valid sample of the general opinion on those countries I gonna start really hard to root for the exit is Spain from the EU.
This is nothing than a façade, solidarity my ass. When those countries did not meet the requirements for entering the euro exceptions were made, now all the money must be collected. I rather lose power to buy abroad and start to actually make a real trade union with our natural marker Latin America.
What people is no seeing is that Greece is punished millions of people in Spain, Portugal, Italy... are gonna experiment a huge anti European thinking. In my country is already happening and the end of the union would have been thanks to certain central powers who wants one currency for all but does not want to lose the power of their central banks. Look at the USA and copy it if we want a real union otherwise I think is high time to end this charade.
This is nothing than a façade, solidarity my ass. When those countries did not meet the requirements for entering the euro exceptions were made, now all the money must be collected. I rather lose power to buy abroad and start to actually make a real trade union with our natural marker Latin America.
What people is no seeing is that Greece is punished millions of people in Spain, Portugal, Italy... are gonna experiment a huge anti European thinking. In my country is already happening and the end of the union would have been thanks to certain central powers who wants one currency for all but does not want to lose the power of their central banks. Look at the USA and copy it if we want a real union otherwise I think is high time to end this charade.
Ted Striker
Neo Member
Greece's debt wasn't sustainable 5 years ago, it still isn't , no matter how much you cut pensions and salaries or increase taxes.
PdotMichael
Banned
Pretty sure even in a USA style Europe the single states still have the responsibility of providing a sustainable budget.
It's a secondary theatre. Every system fails if one or more parties acting against the spirit of the system.
The IMF and EU disagree.
Ted Striker
Neo Member
So are investors, when their investments turn to shit. They don't have their governments to collect their money.
Ted Striker
Neo Member
And here we are.
Which they didn't. Part of the private debt was cut and the rest was payed with european money.
Did you actually read the proposal or do you just believe what Tsipras or Greek media said? Because the proposal is public and seems reasonable enough all things considered.
Embearded
Member
You are out of your mind if you think that Greek media support Syriza.
Ted Striker
Neo Member
They used european money to save private banks and investmnent groups from toxic greek debt.
Ted Striker
Neo Member
Nope, greek governments and elit of the time considered Euro as a major tool and stepping stone for Greece's growth. They cooked up the country's economics for years to enter eurozone.
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