They might not support Syriza but they sure love to shit on the EU in general and Germany in particular from what I've seen. Not saying that's true for all outlets, of course. It's also not really important. The fact is that the proposal is out in the open and reading it, I have no idea what made Tsipras flip his shit.
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Greece to hold referendum on austerity measures 5 July
- Thread starter Coriolanus
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Theonik
Member
Which Greek media. That really isn't the case for most major Greek media at all. You are forming your opinion of Greek public consensus based on cherry picked yellow rags from Greece, Greeks do the same for North Europeans. Or so I thought before reading those threads.
It should be noted that public opinion in Greece was largely positive wrt Europe before shit hit the fan and before major European political figures started pushing anti-greek political agendas.
Yes i did read it. Well the parts that were legible after all the imf red corrections inked over it. "you can't tax the rich, this is how you're gonna do it instead". Knowing that Tsipras got shat all over from home on the deal he DID offer, it seemed obvious that he didn't have the mandate to accept an ultimatum that was even worse.
But i'm sure that if the people of greece agrees with Merkel on the supposed generosity of the deal, they'll say yes in the referendum.
Ted Striker
Neo Member
Most greek media would love to see Tsipra ousted. They supported Pasok and ND for decades.
PdotMichael
Banned
Because no further reforms and a big hair cut were the two reasons he won the last election.
The referendum is just a costly way for him to leave the field because the majority in Greece will show next Sunday that they don't support his policy.
PdotMichael
Banned
A strange way of saying you didn't read the proposal.
Theonik
Member
Nobody said anything about no further reforms. His manifesto included pretty substancial reforms and an end to toxic cuts.
90TilInfinity
Member
From all I am reading it looks likely that Greece will vote 'yes' in the coming referendum.
I wonder what happens next. Strictly speaking, there is no finalized proposal on the table to vote on, and even if there was, the current program will have expired by then anyway. This leaves a lot of room for 'interpretation' for what the Greek government meant by 'signing the proposal'. Negotiations about what to do with Greece will have to start from the very beginning again. I worry that all this circus we had to witness over the last days, weeks, and months will just begin anew, with no hope for real progress.
The Eurozone will probably use all available short-term means to keep the Greek bank system running and settle the imminent repayments, so that negotiations can commence again. I don't see Tsipras resigning despite the fact the Greek people would have rejected his policy, and I don't see why the Greek government or the Eurozone should change their core positions. The tentative result will probably be a very weak compromise that will only carry us through the next months, until the crisis escalates once again.
I wonder what happens next. Strictly speaking, there is no finalized proposal on the table to vote on, and even if there was, the current program will have expired by then anyway. This leaves a lot of room for 'interpretation' for what the Greek government meant by 'signing the proposal'. Negotiations about what to do with Greece will have to start from the very beginning again. I worry that all this circus we had to witness over the last days, weeks, and months will just begin anew, with no hope for real progress.
The Eurozone will probably use all available short-term means to keep the Greek bank system running and settle the imminent repayments, so that negotiations can commence again. I don't see Tsipras resigning despite the fact the Greek people would have rejected his policy, and I don't see why the Greek government or the Eurozone should change their core positions. The tentative result will probably be a very weak compromise that will only carry us through the next months, until the crisis escalates once again.
Theonik
Member
Yes, I was going to say most Germans I know do actually realise it but that doesn't make it any less true, especially when they do nothing to correct it. In fact I think you could get similar results asking these questions in the US.
nature boy
Member
Yeah, I don't think the EU will ignore the result of the referendum. It's just the trust that's been damaged with the Syriza government. How do they plan on implementing what the troika requires after saying they want a 'NO' is beyond me.
I expect that this will change after the referendum. There are some funds available that can be used to support Greece and don't need to be cleared by the national parliaments. Once Greece has this money, the ECB might be willing again to allow the ELAs to continue for some more weeks.
Yeah, I don't see how this can work either. If the referendum fails (from Syriza's point of view) the right thing to do would be to have new elections in Greece.
Ted Striker
Neo Member
What for? Syriza would probably win them with an even bigger margin. Also, Syriza isn't against Euro , the referendum is to choose between austerity plans, Syriza's or Troika's.
http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/so...-bankenschliessungen-am-montag-a-1041057.html
Varoufakis considers closing the banks on Monday. Better get your Euros today, GreekGAF.
Varoufakis considers closing the banks on Monday. Better get your Euros today, GreekGAF.
kingkaiser
Member
Too bad that's exactly the same 30% of the population that does not vote anymore, because of "Politikverdrossenheit" (Political apathy).
They may realize the problem, but do not care for change or are even afraid of it, because this change could actually harm their social status they became so fund of.
Sunday?
I don't know what you're talking about? The EU proposal specifically suggests expanding luxury taxation, raising corporate taxes, fighting tax avoidance, removing tax exemptions for rich people and corporations and fighting corruption. This is the document: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9F6ub8wD7gqZW9OQUJtUWhKNm8/edit
ATMs. I took "closing the banks" as meaning they'll shut down ATMs as well tomorrow which would make sense if they want to fight the capital flight.
ClosingADoor
Member
I don't get this. If the Greek people vote 'yes' to the EU proposal, they are saying they don't agree with what Syriza wants (they advice a 'no' vote). So why vote for them again in the next election.
nature boy
Member
Pretty amazing interview from any perspective from Varoufakis on BBC Radio 4 now.
Prime crotch
Banned
If Europe can't even decide on feta's cheese PDO, I don't see how we can be a truly monetary state union. It was fun while it lasted.
Ted Striker
Neo Member
Because if greeks vote Yes (and that's a big IF), they'll only do it to stay in the Eurozone. It's Troika that makes the referendum a choice between Euro and Drachma. If greeks realise that staying in Eurozone means they'll live under austerity for years more or even decades to pay the debt, they will vote No.
ClosingADoor
Member
Maybe they should clear up the questions then, or put a few more on there, so the referendum is actually clear and the government and EU can do something with it.
I just listened, very defiant...and appears to not believe that the ECB will withdraw the emergency liquidity funding. He was also keep banging on about giving the Greek people a chance to vote on the referendum, which rings very hollow when they could have scheduled such a vote weeks before the 30th June.
Or maybe they figured out that voting for one or another party won't make a difference simply because the system was designed that way. So why bother. Why waste time when your vote doesn't even count?
The only way for some actual difference is lots and lots of people voting for one of the smaller parties. And that simply won't just happen.
Vote for a smaller party and your vote won't count at all because of the 5% hurdle.
Wait, those votes actually do count, but not for the party that actually got voted for, but will actually get split up for the larger parties. So those people are effectively voting for all of the larger parties instead. You check "party X" and instead it counts as "party A+B+C lol". Your vote is simply not acting as it should thanks to the design of the system.
This also means that smaller parties have almost no chance at all to get relevant. Almost every single one of them will stay irrelevant. Your party got 3 million votes? Doesn't matter lol, because it's not 5% or more.
This happened to 7 MILLION votes in 2013.
http://www.spiegel.de/international...le-in-germany-should-be-lowered-a-925817.html
All of those 7 million people voted and their vote gets effectively ignored / treated as if they didn't vote at all. Why bother then? It's effectively a waste of time for those 7 million people.
Or you vote for one of those larger parties and it won't really change a thing, because they are basically the same. Every one of those larger parties except for the left party for example fully support military in Afghanistan ("defending Germany lol"), vast majority of the population is against that. And has been for years. Do parties in power care about that? Of course not. SPD + green party introduced the inhumane Hartz IV system, afterwards CDU came into power. Did they change it at all? Nope.
So let's say you want Hartz IV system to get removed. Who do you vote for?
Imo the whole representative "democracy" (aka check here for the next 4 years and sign away everything) is crap and should get changed into an actual democracy a la Switzerland.
Prime crotch
Banned
link?
They were pretty much in agreement on the general budget goals (or rather, Syriza folded on that part if you read their proposal which is also public), but the IMF didn't accept how Syriza wanted to raise the money. Because - as we all know - the IMF end game is always privatisation, russia style. If it's just about taxation there's no money to be had selling off public assets.
They aren't exactly a benevolent entity.
Here (~9 minutes in): http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0606vv1
The programme is still live, so might not be available yet. The Guardian has quotes here:
So will there be capital controls?
But what about the prospect of the ECB pulling emergency funding today?
If it happens, it would mean that:
http://www.theguardian.com/business...m-bailout-live#block-558fe22ae4b024248ae9a4b7
ecb: ELA to Greek banks maintained at its current level http://t.co/DYLsGCUI2g
That makes capital controlls/Bank holiday almost certain. With the outflows of the last few weeks i doubt greek banks can afford it to open next week.
Embearded
Member
All major networks support EU. A week ago, camera caught a news reporter making the "cut him" gesture under the table when a Syriza politician was talking against EU.
Ted Striker
Neo Member
I believe Syriza doesn't want this to be a Euro vs Drachma referendum, Syriza is a pro Euro party at least up until now. I think they resorted to this referendum to press Troika to accept their proposal and to relieve them for any responsibility taking austerity measures (if people vote Yes) or Greece exiting Eurozone (if people vote No).
Also multiple questions are prohibited.
nature boy
Member
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0606vv1
It's avaliable now. Around the 9 minute mark.
Yep, it's a given. Varoufakis saying they will decided late Sunday pretty much confirms it.
I have only 30 in my wallet right now, I don't want to wait in ATM queues for hours, its really sad to see all those people rushing to withdraw all their money. Personally I just wanted to have some cash for the following days. I don't care what happens, I know my government tried. Troika didn't. I don't want to be part of THAT eurozone.
petran79
Banned
The sad thing is that all previous Greek prime ministers that negotiated with the EU and the IMF should have been put to prison a long time ago for all the things they did in Greece. But such a thing is taboo here.
The first few seconds of this video, this is my life right now.
http://www.zdf.de/ZDFmediathek#/beitrag/video/2434956/Athen-vor-der-Pleite
http://www.zdf.de/ZDFmediathek#/beitrag/video/2434956/Athen-vor-der-Pleite
I don't get it why some people stickto their "good versus bad" vision. Both sides have some valid points from their very own view like goverments tax accountancy:
still running mostly on 386 and 486 PCs which recquires a staff of 100.000 people.
EU offerend to give modern PC Systems for free to reduce to required staff to a 5-digit number.
Greece declined because a lot of their accountants would lose their to reason to be employed and would have to go out of work.
Guess you simply can't bring the western performance orienated view together with the greece "jobs and equality for everyone" view
still running mostly on 386 and 486 PCs which recquires a staff of 100.000 people.
EU offerend to give modern PC Systems for free to reduce to required staff to a 5-digit number.
Greece declined because a lot of their accountants would lose their to reason to be employed and would have to go out of work.
Guess you simply can't bring the western performance orienated view together with the greece "jobs and equality for everyone" view
uuaschbaer
Banned
I don't think it's the norm for ruling parties in democracies to get things entirely their way all the time. Besides, isn't it the civil servants' job to implement policy rather than the politicians'?
The lack of a constructive stance is simply childish. We can help the south towards economic progress easily but we chose to bully and help corrupt officials instead.
Easy votes I guess. GG Merkel, GG Cameron, GG corrupt Conservatives and Social-Democrats in Southern-Europe.
That's a big problem too. It has to come from both sides indeed. Support should come in a package that'll also change Spain, Portugal, Greece etc to actual meritocracy's.
Easy votes I guess. GG Merkel, GG Cameron, GG corrupt Conservatives and Social-Democrats in Southern-Europe.
That's a big problem too. It has to come from both sides indeed. Support should come in a package that'll also change Spain, Portugal, Greece etc to actual meritocracy's.
Ted Striker
Neo Member
What an ignorant post.
VorTeX Raptor
Banned
Things are getting intense there
When I was yonger I wanted to visit Greece, but I think I wont going there too soon
Hope they come up with something
When I was yonger I wanted to visit Greece, but I think I wont going there too soon
Hope they come up with something
https://twitter.com/tommayereuropa/status/615146771879211008
"Greek finance minister Varoufakis asks for new offer from the institutions, government would be ready for negotiations."
What. A. Joke.
You can totally visit the islands and other tourist areas. Only thing that could remind you of the crisis are chatty taxi drivers.
Paul Krugman writes a scathing critique of the Troika's part in this crisis: http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/06/27/europes-moment-of-truth/?_r=0
They change their position on a day-by-day basis. Organizing a referendum on a proposal that wasn't even finalized, and at the same time asking for a new proposal? They either don't know what they are doing, or they are just bullshitting the public with populist hot air, knowing that they won't get a new proposal, after the Eurogroup gave them concession after concession over the last week.
If I were a Greek citizen I would be confused as hell as to what I am actually voting for or against next Friday.
It's just an example that there are different views on several topics. I can get the fact that the government can not modernice its infrastructure because of the huge unemployment rate that would follow. On the other hand I also understand that other countries go like "meh .. why should we pay for that?"
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
False! That is only because their reputation is ruined and reducing their influence on politicians by association, so they are changing their image publicly. When behind close doors, it's the same IMF.
Judging by your comments, it worked.
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