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Greece to hold referendum on austerity measures 5 July

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ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
uuaschbaer said:
I don't think it's the norm for ruling parties in democracies to get things entirely their way all the time. Besides, isn't it the civil servants' job to implement policy rather than the politicians'?
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We are not talking here about some day-by-day business where the people's opinion of course can differ from that of the govnerment from issue to issue. Syriza's entire mandate is based on how they will handle this crisis. This is what won them the election. If it turns out that the people want to go in another direction it would be nothing less than a vote against the current governments mandate. In this case, new elections are what democracies usually should do to reconfirm the will of the people.
 
A

Akyan

Member
oti xero said:
You can totally visit the islands and other tourist areas. Only thing that could remind you of the crisis are chatty taxi drivers.
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I ended up in Iceland just after they introduced capital controls in 2008, and to be honest the only real issue was that I couldn't get any krona before I arrived as nowhere was willing to exchange it in the UK.

It doubt it'll particularly affect tourists. It'll be far worse for locals if they go that route. :(
 
Theonik

Theonik

Member
Ether_Snake said:
False! That is only because their reputation is ruined and reducing their influence on politicians by association, so they are changing their image publicly. When behind close doors, it's the same IMF.

Judging by your comments, it worked.
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I should perhaps rephrase. They at least admit to it. Even though they have taken no corrective action.
 
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Ether_Snake

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They only admit to it so they can reduce the impact on their image and maintain influence on politicians. Any party in Spain that is cozy with the IMF will be unpopular. That's problematic to them.
 
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Arksy

Member
So the ECB is going to continue to release funds? What's going on?

Sigh. I have no clue as to what's going on any more.
 
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Xando

Member
Arksy said:
So the ECB is going to continue to release funds? What's going on?

Sigh. I have no clue as to what's going on any more.
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No the ECB is basically saying let's wait and see. Neither cuts or increase were announced, ELA cap will stay at fridays level (i believe around 90 billion).
 
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ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
Arksy said:
So the ECB is going to continue to release funds? What's going on?
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They are maintaining the credit cap that they had established already (89 billion) and that the Greek banks haven't fully depleted yet, but they won't increase it further. That means that they won't pull the plug immediately, but once the Greek banks run out of cash they won't grant new help either. I've heard people say that the current liquidity might last 1-2 weeks, depending on whether Greece will implement limits on how much money people can withdraw/transfer.
 
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ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
nature boy said:
EU Comission has released its list of proposals, which I guess is the closest thing to what the greeks will vote in a week: http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-15-5270_en.htm
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Compare the specificity of that document to the document that the Greece government had originally submitted last weekend: http://s.kathimerini.gr/resources/article-files/fiscal-policy-new1-1.pdf

That might give a hint to why the Eurozone has been so frustrated with the negotiations.
 
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Ether_Snake

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http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/06/2...-during-the-27th-june-2015-eurogroup-meeting/

Transcript of Varoufakis' intervention yesterday:

Colleagues, the referendum solution is optimal for all, given the constraints we face.

If our government were to accept the institutions’ offer today, promising to push it through Parliament tomorrow, we would be defeated in Parliament with the result of a new election being called within a very long month – then, the delay, the uncertainty and the prospects of a successful resolution would be much, much diminished.

But even if we managed to pass the institutions’ proposal through Parliament, we would be facing a major problem of ownership and implementation. Put simply, just as in the past the governments that pushed through policies dictated by the institutions could not carry the people with them, we too would fail to do so.
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Full transcript at the link.

Edit:
On the question that will be put to the Greek people, much has been said about what it should be. Many of you tell us, advise us, instruct us even, that we should make it a Yes or No question on the euro. Let me be clear on this. First, the question was formulated by the Cabinet and has just been passed through Parliament – and it is “Do you accept the institutions’ proposal as it was presented to us on 25th June in the Eurogroup?” This is the only pertinent question. If we had accepted that proposal two days ago, we would have had a deal. The Greek government is now asking the electorate to answer the question you put it to me Jeroen – especially when you said, and I quote, “you can consider this, if you wish, a take or leave it proposal”. Well, this is how we took it and we are now honouring the institutions and the Greek people by asking the latter to deliver a clear answer on the institutions’ proposal.

To those who say that, effectively, this is a referendum on the euro, my answer is: You may very well say this but I shall not comment. This is your judgement, your opinion, your interpretation. Not ours! There is a logic to your view but only if there is an implicit threat that a No from the Greek people to the institutions’ proposal will be followed up by moves to eject Greece, illegally, out of the euro. Such a threat would not be consistent with basic principles of European democratic governance and European Law.

To those who instruct us to phrase the referendum question as a euro-drachma dilemma, my answer is crystal clear: European Treaties make provisions for an exit from the EU. They do not make any provisions for an exit from the Eurozone. With good reason, of course, as the indivisibility of our Monetary Union is part of its raison d’ etre. To ask us to phrase the referendum question as a choice involving exit from the Eurozone is to ask us to violate EU Treaties and EU Law. I suggest to anyone who wants us, or anyone else, to hold a referendum on EMU membership to recommend a change in the Treaties.
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Our task, in today’s Eurogroup, ought to be to pave the ground for a smooth passage to the referendum of 5th July. This means one thing: that our loan agreement be extended by a few weeks so that the referendum takes place in conditions of tranquillity. Immediately after 5th July, if the people have voted Yes, the institutions’ proposal will be signed. Until then, during the next week, as the referendum approaches, any deviation from normality, especially in the banking sector, will be invariably interpreted as an attempt to coerce Greek voters. Greek society has paid a hefty price, through huge fiscal contraction, in order to be part of our monetary union. But a democratic monetary union that threatens a people about to deliver their verdict with capital controls and bank closures is a contradiction in terms. I would like to think that the Eurogroup will respect this principle. As for the ECB, the custodian on our monetary stability and of the Union itself, I have no doubt that, if the Eurogroup takes a responsible decision today to accept the request for an extension of our loan agreement that I am now tabling, it will do what it takes to give the Greek people a few more days to express their opinion.
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Also, an interesting note:

Following my intervention (see above) the Eurogroup President rejected our request for an extension, with the support of the rest of the members, and announced that the Eurogroup would be issuing a statement placing the burden of this impasse on Greece and suggesting that the 18 ministers (that is the 19 Eurozone finance ministers except the Greek minister) reconvene later to discuss ways and means of protecting themselves from the fallout.

At that point I asked for legal advice, from the secretariat, on whether a Eurogroup statement can be issued without the conventional unanimity and whether the President of the Eurogroup can convene a meeting without inviting the finance minister of a Eurozone member-state. I received the following extraordinary answer: “The Eurogroup is an informal group. Thus it is not bound by Treaties or written regulations. While unanimity is conventionally adhered to, the Eurogroup President is not bound to explicit rules.” I let the reader comment on this remarkable statement.
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LJ11

Member
Hilarious that they publish the offer made to Greece, but leave out their Debt Sustainability Analysis report.

"Trust us the debt is sustainable, we've done the study!"
 
O

Osiris

I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
Reuters: #Greek financial source says the Athens Stock Exchange will not open on Monday
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Ouch.
 
N

nature boy

Member
LJ11 said:
No, this one was specifically done by the EU creditor govts.

Here's a worthless Reuters story
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Oh, didn't know about this one.
I don't think the EU is closed to a new debt restructure, it's just that it has to come with additional measures.

chadskin said:
Banks will remain closed until July 6th. - http://en.protothema.gr/breaking-capital-controls-taken-banks-to-remain-closed-for-one-week/
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Damn, didn't expect that.

This can turn south pretty easily.
 
Embearded

Embearded

Member
Banks will be closed for tomorrow and its not sure yet if they will keep them closed until next week.
The sites you post belong to people well known for their support to certain parties... I wouldn't take em seriously if I were you.

Yes PM will give a speech soon.
 
Nikodemos

Nikodemos

Member
Reading Varoufakis's blog makes it seems like the EuroGroup is trying their damndest to force Greece out of the Eurozone. Sort of their version of the old Looney Tunes adage: "Don't go away mad, just go away!"

Doesn't really surprise me, given that their President is a Netherlander.
 
Theonik

Theonik

Member
Nikodemos said:
Reading Varoufakis's blog makes it seem like the EuroGroup is trying their damndest to force Greece out of the Eurozone. Sort of their version of the old Looney Tunes adage: "Don't go away mad, just go away!"
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It's part of shifting the blame. I mean, making a statement excluding the Greek minister?
 
C

ClosingADoor

Member
That's pretty bad. I hope they don't have to close the banks for a whole week. Would create a lot of panic.

Nikodemos said:
Reading Varoufakis's blog makes it seems like the EuroGroup is trying their damndest to force Greece out of the Eurozone. Sort of their version of the old Looney Tunes adage: "Don't go away mad, just go away!"

Doesn't really surprise me, given that their President is a Netherlander.
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Those damn Netherlanders!

Xando said:
So german vice chancellor just confirmed this story. http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/griechenland-krise-diesmal-ist-berlin-richtig-zornig-1.2541694
Hollande and Merkel offered a 35 billion growth program but Tsipras said nope.
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Pretty scummy to withold info like that. Seems to me that if the Greek people vote for the EU deal, the current Greek government should resign and hold new elections. Even more delays then of course, which is also not very good...
 
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chadskin

Member
Financial Times:
Officials said the bank closure would last for several days and would be accompanied by limits yet to be announced on bank transfers abroad and withdrawals from cash machines.

The cashing of cheques would be halted and fixed term deposits would be locked down. The Athens stock exchange was also set to be closed.

The day’s events followed the surprise move by the Greek government to call a referendum on new bailout terms offered by the country’s international creditors, triggering a rupture with Athens’ eurozone partners and pushing the country closer to exiting the single currency.
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http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/49775bac-1d83-11e5-ab0f-6bb9974f25d0.html#axzz3eLOBbk2W
 
Nikodemos

Nikodemos

Member
ClosingADoor said:
Those damn Netherlanders!
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The Netherlands is Germany's Friends With Benefits. Unsurprising, given that Germany is their largest trade partner (~27% exports, ~14% imports).

Pretty much any inter-Union political position taken by a Netherlander politician mirrors that of Germany. In this case, the Germans probably didn't want to shine any (more) negative light upon themselves.

Xando said:
So german vice chancellor just confirmed this story. http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/griechenland-krise-diesmal-ist-berlin-richtig-zornig-1.2541694
Hollande and Merkel offered a 35 billion growth program but Tsipras said nope.
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I'll bet an old British shilling to a €20 Euro note that roadmap included a wide privatisation programme, which, coincidentally, would've vastly benefitted German and French companies.
 
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LJ11

Member
Xando said:
Furthermore they apparently offered debt restructuring and options for a 3rd program. I'll check if i find the gabriel interview in the ZDF library if i get home.
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Debt restructuring, bubububu their debt sustainability analysis report showed that it was unnecessary.

Amazing how this stuff gets leaked 48 hours after the referendum is announced. Playing us like fiddles.
 
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Xando

Member
StratosGK said:
I don't speak german, does it say how that program would work?
It's easy to say that and let others jump to wrong conclusions.
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From what the article says it would have been the offer the eu released today + investment programm, talks about restructuring and the option of a 3rd program.

Article also says that the offer was scraped together when tsipras told them about referendum.
 
Nikodemos

Nikodemos

Member
LJ11 said:
Debt restructuring, bubububu their debt sustainability analysis report showed that it was unnecessary.

Amazing how this stuff gets leaked 48 hours after the referendum is announced. Playing us like fiddles.
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Why would anyone propose a debt restructuring programme if the debt was considered sustainable?

/sarcasm
 
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