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[Ether_Snake]

Merkel has to decide which thing is more important: saving the Euro or saving her political career? It's a tough choice, but it has to be made.

Yes and no. She isn't a dictator. Germany's population will eventually pronounce themselves on this, if not now then later. What Merkel thinks is only meaningful on the short term. This doesn't end with Greece, other countries will bring this issue again, and at some point either Germans will just say enough, or have a holy-spirit visit and change their minds, but I doubt it, Germans probably believe they can handle having complete control over their economy more than any other country in Europe.

 

[ElTorro]

Merkel has to decide which thing is more important: saving the Euro or saving her political career? It's a tough choice, but it has to be made.

We are not just talking about Merkel, but about politicians all over Europe. And some of these still think that the representatives of the people should respect the people's opinions on things like lending giving billions of tax-payer Euros to countries that won't ever pay it back.

My point is, I don't see why the Eurozone states should give a damn about todays popular vote in Greece. That's not what they are concerned about. The electorate in Greece has no democratic authority over them. Yet many people seem to believe that it is a huge deal.

 

[snap0212]

They are the most right wing party that isn't a nazi party. They rule over Bavaria.

Oh boy. I dislike them with a passion, but if you're explaining the party to a foreigner you should probably use other words. The Tea party comparison further up as well. Where's your perspective?!?

 

[EloKa]

Merkel has to decide which thing is more important: saving the Euro or saving her political career? It's a tough choice, but it has to be made.

saving the euro without greece might actually be easier than with greece.
You should now say save the euro, save her career or save greece (pick 2 of 3)

 

[PodcastFips]

Haha Tsiparas must be now shitting in the pants.

He put referendum purposfully on 5th of July when help programs were ending on 30th of June to force Troika into extending it without doing any compromise.

Then he probably hoped that people will vote yes so he can clean his hands and accept reform programs without sinking his chances in election.

Now whatever happens is on him

He will be gone before anything happens anyway.

 

[tokkun]

I am curious what the people who are saying "only the bankers benefited" think the consequences of a default are.

 

[Kathian]

Greece leaving the Euro then. If only its leaders had the guts to say they need to leave years ago.

 

[Hellraizah]

Yep, and Greece always has the option of saying "we're not paying you a dime back of the debt we owe ever since we just declared it null and void".

It's not like Europe is going to invade them to get their money back.

Maybe not. But Europe always can also say "You declared your debt null and void? Well, we won't trade with you until it is repaid."

Let's see how far they go.

Anyone can declare their debt null and void, but it's not only up to them...

 

[cyberheater]

i just hope that Greece leaves the EU and gets back on their own feet.

I think there is now a real possibility of this happening. The people of Greece has emphatically turned their backs on the Eurozone and the I think the political will to keep them in is draining.

 

[Negotiator]

You realize that if those banks fail everyone loses their life savings right? I assume that Greece has some sort of FDIC equivalent but do you really want all your money converted into whatever the Greek government will be printing? Also if there's no banks how will businesses find ivestment, because it sure as hell won't be coming from outside Greece if they default. Greece would pretty much be sentenced to economic collapse if you just let your financial sector implode

You do realize that the greek bank deposits have already been fucked up since 2009, don't you?

So, why should Greece be sacrificed?

Basically your logic is "those poor EU taxpayers and their savings". But what about greek savings? They are already half (120 billion €) compared to 2009 (240 billion €).

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Merkel has to decide which thing is more important: saving the Euro or saving her political career? It's a tough choice, but it has to be made.

Letting Greece exit the euro will save it. Why would Italy, Spain, and others accept another Greek bailout without austerity when those countries have been following it and recovering?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Greece always could have refused the loan. It's really confusing to me what EU owes Greece. Also I don't see difference between "yes" and "no" votes. Either way the country is going bankrupt. "No" vote is probably better for EU...

"No" is probably very slightly worse from an EU perspective, because in the long-run the Euro will rise slightly in value as result of losing Greece, which is especially bad from the point of view of Spain, Portugal, etc. which really need the Euro to be as low as it can be.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Haha Tsiparas must be now shitting in the pants.

He put referendum purposfully on 5th of July when help programs were ending on 30th of June to force Troika into extending it without doing any compromise.

Then he probably hoped that people will vote yes so he can clean his hands and accept reform programs without sinking his chances in election.

Now whatever happens is on him

Then why the fuck was he asking for a "No"? At least he shouldn't have campaigned for a "No" if that was the case...

The one that miscalculated was Merkel, that declined Tsipras offer a few days ago in the hope of the "Yes" to win and get Tsipras to sign whatever she wants.

Letting Greece exit the euro will save it. Why would Italy, Spain, and others accept another Greek bailout without austerity when those countries have been following it and recovering?

Because austerity has clearly not working and keeping it on Greece is condeming their people to the misery to the next 50 years.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Maybe not. But Europe always can also say "You declared your debut null and void? Well, we won't trade with you until it is repaid."

Let's see how far they go.

Let's see them do it then. What do you think it will tell the population in Italy for example? Do you have any idea how people actually perceive this? Today's vote should tell you clearly. If Europe starts to treat Greece like Iraq, the next country to find itself in such a situation will be scared of facing the same eventuality. The ruling party will plead the population and try to scare them into submitting, but as always in a democracy a strong-armed party will gain support to protect the population and stand up for them. People will equate the old parties with failure, the new emerging ones with people-power and national interest, and they'll vote for them.

So yes, let's see Europe impose sanctions on Greece to crush them economically and see the impact this will have on Europe itself.

 

[ClosingADoor]

You do realize that the greek bank deposits have already been fucked up since 2009, don't you?

So, why should Greece be sacrificed?

Basically your logic is "those poor EU taxpayers and their savings". But what about greek savings? They are already half (120 billion &#8364 compared to 2009 (240 billion &#8364.

I don't think that money was taken from the Greek people. They got it out of the bank themselves. Of course savings are going way down during an economic crisis, since people are losing their jobs and such.

The money wasn't lost, it was used and spent by the people themselves. Or taken out of the country.

 

[PdotMichael]

You do realize that the greek bank deposits have already been fucked up since 2009, don't you?

So, why should Greece be sacrificed?

Basically your logic is "those poor EU taxpayers and their savings". But what about greek savings? They are already half (120 billion €) compared to 2009 (240 billion €).

The savings are save in Switzerland and other EU states.

 

[oti]

The #1 trending hashtag worldwide is #Greferendum.
The #1 trending hashtag in Germany is #Tatort, a TV show.

 

[hidys]

Haha Tsiparas must be now shitting in the pants.

He put referendum purposfully on 5th of July when help programs were ending on 30th of June to force Troika into extending it without doing any compromise.

Then he probably hoped that people will vote yes so he can clean his hands and accept reform programs without sinking his chances in election.

Now whatever happens is on him

Yeah. I guess that's why he was emphatically campaigning for a no vote.

 

[pigeon]

saving the euro without greece might actually be easier than with greece.
You should now say save the euro, save her career or save greece (pick 2 of 3)

No way.

If they let Greece go and it prospers, then Spain and Italy are gone immediately.

If they let Greece go and deliberately make Greece suffer, then people might stay for a while out of fear. But fear is not a sustainable motivation for a political union. When the opportunity arises for people to abandon the EU safely, they'll obviously take it.

The only way to preserve the ever closer union is for Germany and the EU to actually provide the fiscal help that Greece needs but is unable to provide for itself because of the monetary union. Otherwise the EU is just another failed experiment in European relations.

 

[PodcastFips]

Another shocking fact: Only 60% participated in steering their nation's future and probably their own lives.

 

[Coriolanus]

You realize that if those banks fail everyone loses their life savings right? I assume that Greece has some sort of FDIC equivalent but do you really want all your money converted into whatever the Greek government will be printing? Also if there's no banks how will businesses find ivestment, because it sure as hell won't be coming from outside Greece if they default. Greece would pretty much be sentenced to economic collapse if you just let your financial sector implode

Those are not the only alternatives, as you are well aware. Saving the banks is fine, provided that there are consequences for those at the banks that played and got burned. Saving the banks via a lie and using another country as a sacrificial goat, however, is fucking bullshit and does nothing to curb future errors.

We're basically living in a system where banks want to play by hayek's rules until they fuck up, at which point suddenly they want the state to help them. Fuck that.

Another shocking fact: Only 60% participated in steering their nation's future and probably their own lives.

Not that odd when you can only vote at the place where you are registered.

 

[alexandros]

We are not just talking about Merkel, but about politicians all over Europe. And some of these still think that the representatives of the people should respect the people's opinions on things like lending giving billions of tax-payer Euros to countries that won't ever pay it back.

A good question to ask is why give that money in the first place. Taxpayers were burdened with private sector debt without anyone asking them if they wanted to.

 

[snap0212]

You do realize that the greek bank deposits have already been fucked up since 2009, don't you?

So, why should Greece be sacrificed?

Basically your logic is "those poor EU taxpayers and their savings". But what about greek savings? They are already half (120 billion €) compared to 2009 (240 billion €).

What do those graphs say? You could basically say that people have put their money into offshore accounts and use that graph as proof for that, no?

 

[Setsu00]

The #1 trending hashtag worldwide is #Grefenderum.
The #1 trending hashtag in Germany is #Tatort, a TV show.

The #1 trending hashtag for me is #Greferendum and I am in Germany. I am also 100% sure that my twitter is set to display the German trends.

 

[KHlover]

The #1 trending hashtag worldwide is #Grefenderum.
The #1 trending hashtag in Germany is #Tatort, a TV show.

Tbh nothing will change in those 90min. Let us watch Tatort now

EDIT:

 

[erale]

You do realize that the greek bank deposits have already been fucked up since 2009, don't you?

Basically your logic is "those poor EU taxpayers and their savings". But what about greek savings? They are already half (120 billion €) compared to 2009 (240 billion €).

They are that low because everyone (mostly the rich people) transferred their money into other countries because they were afraid of losing some of their money if it stays in Greece.

After all they more than once discussed about special taxes for higher savings and stuff.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Letting Greece exit the euro will save it. Why would Italy, Spain, and others accept another Greek bailout without austerity when those countries have been following it and recovering?

This is again very short-sighted. First of all, by pushing Greece out, it would reaffirm the pro-austerity position to everyone's face, meaning that when Italy, Spain, or others find themselves in a difficult position, they won't have a better treatment than Greece had, in fact the proposals would be worst and used as a threat. So you can be certain that it would not take long before either those countries would ask for favorable deals (and watch out if more than one make such demands at the same time), or seek protection against the austerity demands.

Once Greece is out, every southern European country other than France will basically have a gun to their heads. They won't react favorably to this.

"No" is probably very slightly worse from an EU perspective, because in the long-run the Euro will rise slightly in value as result of losing Greece, which is especially bad from the point of view of Spain, Portugal, etc. which really need the Euro to be as low as it can be.

Unlikely to rise, because the validity of the currency will be thought of as being uncertain on the long run. Greece exit means maybe others will eventually follow, especially if they are forced out, which wouldn't help the currency. It might not tank it, but I doubt there would be much upswing.

 

[Hrothgar]

What do those graphs say? You could basically say that people have put their money into offshore accounts and use that graph as proof for that, no?

Or under their mattress.

 

[nature boy]

Can someone explain to a non-greek the importance of pride and dignity?

Is it a cultural thing or more related to the austerity the last 5 years?

 

[oti]

The #1 trending hashtag for me is #Greferendum and I am in Germany. I am also 100% sure that my twitter is set to display the German trends.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

This is again very short-sighted. First of all, by pushing Greece out, it would reaffirm the pro-austerity position to everyone's face, meaning that when Italy, Spain, or others find themselves in a difficult position, they won't have a better treatment than Greece had, in fact the proposals would be worst and used as a threat. So you can be certain that it would not take long before either those countries would ask for favorable deals (and watch out if more than one make such demands at the same time), or seek protection against the austerity demands.

Once Greece is out, every southern European country other than France will basically have a gun to their heads. They won't react favorably to this.

Not even to say that it will send a clear signal to the markets, "EU as institution cannot be trusted and their currency neither", kicking out Greece is killing the euro and in the midterm a fatal irreversible blow on the EU.

 

[wsippel]

No way.

If they let Greece go and it prospers, then Spain and Italy are gone immediately.

If they let Greece go and deliberately make Greece suffer, then people might stay for a while out of fear. But fear is not a sustainable motivation for a political union. When the opportunity arises for people to abandon the EU safely, they'll obviously take it.

The only way to preserve the ever closer union is for Germany and the EU to actually provide the fiscal help that Greece needs but is unable to provide for itself because of the monetary union. Otherwise the EU is just another failed experiment in European relations.

But how is Greece supposed to prosper if it leaves? It's still not exporting anything, the government is still bloated and corrupt and people won't suddenly start paying taxes. The EU doesn't have to make Greece suffer, Greece will be quite capable of doing that on its own.

 

[Negotiator]

You're delusional if you think that the average Greek sent his money to Switzerland or anywhere else.

We're not talking about the Greek elite here... you can confiscate Greek elite's deposits for all I care.

Regular people withdraw money from their deposits to pay the ever increasing taxes, while their wages/pensions are getting slashed. This is NOT sustainable.

 

[Keio]

Considering Greek economy is the size of a few percent of the eurozone in total - about the size of growth forecasted for this year - I hope EU leaders now come to their senses and not cut off their own <insert bodypart> to spite it. Sure, there was a boatload of financial mismanagement in the 2000s but saving Greece costs much, much less than us plunging to another shitty recession in the EU.

 

[pulsemyne]

Letting Greece exit the euro will save it. Why would Italy, Spain, and others accept another Greek bailout without austerity when those countries have been following it and recovering?

Exactly. The others accepted things and made extremely painful changes, now things have begun to turn around for them and hopefully will continue. Greece meanwhile seems to have dithered and dodged and will now pay an awful price.
If the Greek people think this vote will make everything right then they are in for a very, very rude awakening. They thought times were tough before? It's nothing compared to what is to come if they leave the EU.
However it may work out for them in the long term (say 15 years or so). Having your own currency can work in such drastic circumstances. The real problem lies in who the hell is going to want to buy Greek debt when they don't pay it back? The russians don't have money to throw around to help them out.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

But how is Greece supposed to prosper if it leaves? It's still not exporting anything, the government is still bloated and corrupt and people won't suddenly start paying taxes.

Are we still playing this card?

 

[Mrmartel]

What kind of effect will this have on the Euro? I'm Canadian, so the Euro is currently trading at 1.38 cdn for every Euro. Could this drop substantially ?

 

[erale]

But how is Greece supposed to prosper if it leaves? It's still not exporting anything, the government is still bloated and corrupt and people won't suddenly start paying taxes.

Don't say that. It's all europes fault you know. The Greece economy was totally healthy before europe forced them to take their loans.

 

[Coriolanus]

Exactly. The others accepted things and made extremely painful changes, now things have begun to turn around for them and hopefully will continue. Greece meanwhile seems to have dithered and dodged and will now pay an awful price.

You are delusional and continuing to perpetrate "lazy greeks, they didn't do nothing" rethoric.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Unlikely to rise, because the validity of the currency will be thought of as being uncertain on the long run. Greece exit means maybe others will eventually follow, especially if they are forced out, which wouldn't help the currency. It might not tank it, but I doubt there would be much upswing.

True, but that's also a bad outcome for the Euro because then people will want to make less risky investments. Regardless of the future stability of the Eurozone, Greece leaving represents a harm.

 

[PodcastFips]

What kind of effect will this have on the Euro? I'm Canadian, so the Euro is currently trading at 1.38 cdn for every Euro. Could this drop substantially ?

No effect in the near future, and not a substantial one in the long term.

 

[Souldestroyer Reborn]

So you're saying, now that they won't get any european loans anymore they can start to reform? That could have been a lot easier for everyone then...

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Everyone all over the world was fed the bullshit about how good austerity is for getting back on your feet and it was lies. The IMF even said they fucked up themselves in regards to austerity.

Greece has a big tourism industry, so leaving the EU might not be the best considering open borders and all. They also get more money from the EU then they pay towards it. So I take it you mean leaving the Euro, not the European Union.

It's not going to be easy if they do leave. It would be best in the long term for Greece to default AND fully remove themselves from the EU imo. The tourisim industry will survive.

Greece always could have refused the loan. It's really confusing to me what EU owes Greece. Also I don't see difference between "yes" and "no" votes. Either way the country is going bankrupt. "No" vote is probably better for EU...

Hindsight like i said is a great thing. No-one believed that austerity wouldn't work because that's what we were told would work. Then when they were proven wrong, that austerity didn't work, what did they offer?

More Austerity.

Fuck them.

I think there is now a real possibility of this happening. The people of Greece has emphatically turned their backs on the Eurozone and the I think the political will to keep them in is draining.

I don't blame them. The people of Greece are being painted as lazy fucking villans by those people when that isn't the case.

It's about time they told the Merkel et al to go fuck themselves.

 

[erale]

What kind of effect will this have on the Euro? I'm Canadian, so the Euro is currently trading at 1.38 cdn for every Euro. Could this drop substantially ?

I guess it's up to whats next. I guess the Euro could go down a bit more over the next few weeks before it will go up again.

 

[Tugatrix]

Letting Greece exit the euro will save it. Why would Italy, Spain, and others accept another Greek bailout without austerity when those countries have been following it and recovering?

Portugal recovery happen because our constitutional court blocked austerity and that relieved the economy enough, but it's all appearances the debt keep rising every damn year

 

[alexandros]

Can someone explain to a non-greek the importance of pride and dignity?

Is it a cultural thing or more related to the austerity the last 5 years?

It is definitely cultural. Greek history and mythology is filled with stories of people resisting and triumphing against overwhelming odds or sacrificing themselves heroically.

 

[Suikoguy]

Don't say that. It's all europes fault you know. The Greece economy was totally healthy before europe forced them to take their loans.

True, but it's considerably Edit: easy easier to correct an economy when you have your own currency.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

No effect in the near future, and not a substantial one in the long term.

Already losing 1,15% points in the asian markets...

 

[wsippel]

Are we still playing this card?

Well, it's still true so I don't see why we shouldn't...

 

[protonion]

 

[itsgreen]

What kind of effect will this have on the Euro? I'm Canadian, so the Euro is currently trading at 1.38 cdn for every Euro. Could this drop substantially ?

It could, the exchange rate will improve for the Canadian Dollar...

But markets have seen this thing coming and speculating on it for some time, so the market already advanced on a possible Greek exit.

There will be consequences, but for a part they already have started...