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Greece to hold referendum on austerity measures 5 July
- Thread starter Coriolanus
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Relaxed Muscle
Member
You mean that these past months they actually took him into consideration?
It was basically:"You are a fool and you have no idea, sign this and shut up" since he started his mandate...
Basically last negotiations failed when the FMI added more addendums (even more austerity) to the almost finished draw and Merkel went to Tsipras with "Sign this or nothing".
There is just that exactly amount of shit treatment a sovereign country and his goverment before they decide to act with the weapons they have.
ClosingADoor
Member
Merkel and Hollande are meeting to discuss the results tomorrow evening. Can't imagine that being a fun talk.
hobblygobbly
Member
CSU isn't like the tea party, it's not far-right either. It's conservative yes, but not far-right. CSU and CDU are centre-right.
Turin Turambar
Member
Same as before, I suppose. Nothing really changed. It was a lot of political posturing.
This stuff drives me nuts. Who do you think will be affected if all of the banks failed and no-one (businesses and people) couldn't access their money?
Of course they knew but unfortunately it is as you said. I wrote that part at first as well but removed it in the end, so it wouldn't be cynicial at all.
Still they're no finance ministers... And they can't give Greece some more loans on their own, right?
True Savior
Member
Congrats Greece. What a beautiful political day in Europe. So see such a signficant difference in votes after european central bank (againts its own regulations) promoted an active act of terror against a country , its goddamn beautiful to see a country to defend itself against the ones who spit in the face of human dignity.
You may not have the support of many governments (including the fascists that rule mine today...only until november!) but you have a huge support of millions of people across Europe.
Let's fight for a future.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Thanks for the info.
That kinda explains Merkel actions for all these past months.
Center-right. We don't really have any far right parties in Germany. But as other people wrote, the CSU is extremely conservative and extremely focused on Bavaria. Comparing them to the Tea Party is kinda ridiculous.
PdotMichael
Banned
They need to sell any possible deals to their parlements first anyway.
One of the reasons why the referendum was way too late.
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
One thing I can see in this quasi-comedy is if they reach agreement, especially if it involves a debt cut: Merkel will call for a referendum, and will campaign for a Yes vote and pronounce a No vote as Gerxit, lol.
ClosingADoor
Member
No, but they are the leaders of the biggest Euro countries, so hold a lot of power.
They can't decide on their own for the Eurogroup of course, but if they reach some agreement it holds a lot of value.
We don't really know what they are going to talk about of course.
Tallshortman
Member
This isn't some elitist or top down driven thing, most of the taxpayers in the debt holding countries want their money returned eventually. If you had a vote in Germany, spain, Italy, etc on what the troikas position should be in Greece you'd very most likely get very similar positions. The only way to change it is to change I individial citizens attitudes.
Also, from what I've seen many of the smaller countries especially in the east think Greece should "live within their means" as many of them have poorer citizens and have gone through auserity as well.
You overestimate the state of democracy here in Germany :/
People really seem to forget that people like Merkel don't have unlimited power, but instead have to answer to their constituents.
For instance, back in 2010 Merkel infamously said a few times that the bailouts for Greece are "without any alternative" if we want to save the Euro. As a response, some people founded a center-right party literally called "Alternative for Germany" that ever since argues against the Euro. And right from the start they had success in state elections and are now in many state parliaments.
That's what politicians all over the Eurozone are afraid of. They want to help, because they believe in the Euro and its political benefits, but are afraid of loosing elections if they give in to too many concessions. Why should they give two fucks about a popular vote in Greece?
Right. But after today I doubt there would be anything that they can sell to their parlements.
cm osi
Member
Congrats Greece. What a beautiful political day in Europe. So see such a signficant difference in votes after european central bank (againts its own regulations) promoted an active act of terror against a country , its goddamn beautiful to see a country to defend itself against the ones who spit in the face of human dignity.
You may not have the support of many governments (including the fascists that rule mine today...only until november!) but you have a huge support of millions of people across Europe.
Let's fight for a future.
wow, well let's go all they way and fuck banks let's go back to barter
Relaxed Muscle
Member
None of these countries has top economist saying that they won't ever paid their loans.
Greece has no chance of paying it EVER. Even the FMI agrees, Europe can't be that blind.
It's gonna be alot harder to convince the state parlements in europe, that's for sure.
ClosingADoor
Member
Indeed, countries like Latvia, Slovakia, Estonia are also in the Euro and a lot poorer then Greece. Can't really blame them if they don't want to have their citizens pay the debt of what is still a rich country compared to them.
Frankfurter
Member
There are only like 2 or 3 specific cases where federal referendums are legal in Germany, and this isn't one of them.
They are the most right wing party that isn't a nazi party. They rule over Bavaria.
Yep, and Greece always has the option of saying "we're not paying you a dime back of the debt we owe ever since we just declared it null and void".
It's not like Europe is going to invade them to get their money back.
petran79
Banned
The Greek Social Democrats and Conservatives, luckily for us, are the most worthless in Europe!
The people voting are. And that's why our politicians can't publicly admit that the money we lend Greece is gone, even though they know it. That's why the only solutions is some sort of iteratively increasing repayment delay without interests that in practice would mean the same as a debt relief.
I remember the last time the German Bundestag had to give it's OK it took a LOT of talking to get them in to the boat.
I feel it's near impossible now. At least in Germany.
This is likely imo. Can't see how they would spin a deal to their own people with majority of greeks rejecting it.
You realize that if those banks fail everyone loses their life savings right? I assume that Greece has some sort of FDIC equivalent but do you really want all your money converted into whatever the Greek government will be printing? Also if there's no banks how will businesses find ivestment, because it sure as hell won't be coming from outside Greece if they default. Greece would pretty much be sentenced to economic collapse if you just let your financial sector implode
Souldestroyer Reborn
Banned
I'm so proud of my fellow Greeks for standing up to this bullshit even when the media in Greece was all against the no vote for their own self interests.
The way Greece has been treated throughout the media is shocking. The ,money given was never going to help the people, it was for the financial institutions, and yet again, the people suffered at the hands of bankers. No-one actually gave a shit about the people who were struggling, were classed as 'lazy Greeks' when in actuality the only people benefitting was bankers. The money was given for the EU's own self-intrests. Not to help anyone. They don't and never did give a shit, that much is clear.
This is n't going to be easy, there are hard times ahead, i just hope that Greece leaves the EU and gets back on their own feet.
The way Greece has been treated throughout the media is shocking. The ,money given was never going to help the people, it was for the financial institutions, and yet again, the people suffered at the hands of bankers. No-one actually gave a shit about the people who were struggling, were classed as 'lazy Greeks' when in actuality the only people benefitting was bankers. The money was given for the EU's own self-intrests. Not to help anyone. They don't and never did give a shit, that much is clear.
This is n't going to be easy, there are hard times ahead, i just hope that Greece leaves the EU and gets back on their own feet.
PodcastFips
Member
Dude, that might be a funny joke within Germany, but Non-Germans will certainly understand that wrong.
Ether_Snake
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Yeah, they invented Democracy and will now invent something called the Default, someone might even have to create a wikipedia page for that word!
Relaxed Muscle
Member
That won't be enough, Greece needs money to repair it's fractured and damaged economy.
And taxpayers have been paying with their money all kind of shit they will never see a dim back. Just look at Spain and it's corruption.
EricTheCleric
Member
The only way for Greece to succeed is to stop the corruption and implement and enforce proper tax legislation.
If Greeks are not wiling to pay the taxes needed to support their own country it cannot exist as a functioning state.
No one with any financial sense would want to lend money to a state with such a poor system or will to support itself. EU and ECBs lending of the money was not financial but out of solidarity. Sadly it seems Greece did not take the opportunity to do anything else but ask for more money.
So congratulations Greece, I guess. You now have the possibility to reboot and implement a proper and working state structure. Though I doubt you will succeed. Oh, and your austerity have just started.
If Greeks are not wiling to pay the taxes needed to support their own country it cannot exist as a functioning state.
No one with any financial sense would want to lend money to a state with such a poor system or will to support itself. EU and ECBs lending of the money was not financial but out of solidarity. Sadly it seems Greece did not take the opportunity to do anything else but ask for more money.
So congratulations Greece, I guess. You now have the possibility to reboot and implement a proper and working state structure. Though I doubt you will succeed. Oh, and your austerity have just started.
But banks are evil and all the money going into banks is spent for hookers, and champaign, and penthouses in New York.
Our bank system has really serious issues and needs to be well regulated, and the profits some top bankers earn are disgusting, but this one-dimensional demonization of banks is just detached from reality.
Machspeed007
Member
That's zerohedge-style rhetoric, of course.
Negotiator
Member
Merkel has to decide which thing is more important: saving the Euro or saving her political career? It's a tough choice, but it has to be made.
People in here with no understanding of the german political landscape pretend the CSU is some kind of tea party equivalent. I would laugh if all of this wasn't so sad.
Caipirinha
Member
One of the first real victories against neoliberalism in modern Europe.
FUCK you Merkel
FUCK you Junckel
FUCK austerity
OXI
FUCK you Merkel
FUCK you Junckel
FUCK austerity
OXI
Haha wonderful.
Not only in Germany.
It will be interesting how countries will react.
People tend to forget how many countries will actually participate.
So you're saying, now that they won't get any european loans anymore they can start to reform? That could have been a lot easier for everyone then...
michaelius
Banned
Haha Tsiparas must be now shitting in the pants.
He put referendum purposfully on 5th of July when help programs were ending on 30th of June to force Troika into extending it without doing any compromise.
Then he probably hoped that people will vote yes so he can clean his hands and accept reform programs without sinking his chances in election.
Now whatever happens is on him
He put referendum purposfully on 5th of July when help programs were ending on 30th of June to force Troika into extending it without doing any compromise.
Then he probably hoped that people will vote yes so he can clean his hands and accept reform programs without sinking his chances in election.
Now whatever happens is on him
ClosingADoor
Member
Greece has a big tourism industry, so leaving the EU might not be the best considering open borders and all. They also get more money from the EU then they pay towards it. So I take it you mean leaving the Euro, not the European Union.
Resident_UA
Member
Greece always could have refused the loan. It's really confusing to me what EU owes Greece. Also I don't see difference between "yes" and "no" votes. Either way the country is going bankrupt. "No" vote is probably better for EU...
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