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[Arcteryx]

For those complaining that the event should've been accessible to everyone...

Considering it's a one-time event, don't you think Sunday afternoon (EST) was probably one of the best times they could have chosen? Of course, not everyone could be there, but that's to be expected.

It was probably just about the best time they could do it, short of having it run all day (one loot of the chest per ACCOUNT).

Personally, I think it would have made more sense to have ZERO precursors drop from that event, let everyone have random exotics and so be it. Makes more sense to me for them to drop in normal random play, instead of in a "one time event", where everyone is putting in equal effort(during a really boring long event).

Oh well, I made off like a bandit though; bought up a ton of cheap exotics, got sigils out of them/banked them, and picked up a few of the cheaper precursors. It was a nice "attempt" by ANet to even the precursor field, but I feel like it only resulted in saltiness and people with lots of gold picking up the precursors at cheap prices(gold begets more gold). Guess I can't complain in the end

 

[Mr. Luchador]

It will be interesting to see how they managed timezones with future events, if they insist on persisting with this 'one global server' style approach.

 

[Noisy Ninj4]

It was probably just about the best time they could do it, short of having it run all day (one loot of the chest per ACCOUNT).

I actually would've been ok with that. Maybe have the event last 24-48 hours with the chest only opening once per account and providing some fat loots. You could still play the event as much as you wanted (within the time limits) while eliminating the whining over loot. Even if I HADN'T gotten involved in the event, the drop in precursor prices and many exotics due to a flood of supply was enough to make me pleased on the loot end.

As for the event itself, I think it could been a bit shorter during the repetitive reinforcement parts (the big mobs were a bit too much of a damage-sponge, other mechanics could've spiced up the battlefield) and better though-out technically (culling and lag still an issue). Other than that it was pretty much everything I'd want. There weren't bullshit 1-shot bosses. The mobs spawned were actually difficult to kill and you had to stay on your toes to not quickly get overwhelmed.

 

[nicoga3000]

If I recall correctly, it has something to do with the huge number of players damaging the mob. It screws up their tagging system or something. I would guess that when you got the shell and pants later the crowd had thinned out a bit, yes?

The reward at the end of the event probably made up for it, but I know how it feels to be fighting along incurring repair costs with nothing to show for it.

Large scale event mob tagging is one of the things I think they need to address. For sure.

 

[Rawk Hawk]

For those complaining that the event should've been accessible to everyone...

Considering it's a one-time event, don't you think Sunday afternoon (EST) was probably one of the best times they could have chosen? Of course, not everyone could be there, but that's to be expected.

Yea, seems as though some people posting on the official forums only play the game to complain about the game. I got a chance to do the Saturday event chain, and wasn't able to log on at all Sunday unfortunately.

I would have loved that 20 slot bag though, fractals tend to fill me up before we get back to the hub.

 

[nicoga3000]

Please, tell me how they're breaking new ground with their approach.

GW2 = MMO. GW1 = instanced everything. That's a pretty huge jump in my eyes.

 

[Giard]

Large scale event mob tagging is one of the things I think they need to address. For sure.

Agreed. Mesmers are getting screwed of EXP and items because we don't have hard-hitting AOEs.

Question: What do people mean by "culling"?

 

[Hawkian]

Hawkian's Theory of MMO Community Discourse

So ironically, I was going to make this post before I saw these two adjacent comments that happened to help me out...

ludicrously valuable rewards

the rewards were shit

I apologize in advance for the length of this. Please bear with me if you find the dynamics of MMO communities at all interesting.

I must say- this event more than anything else so far has firmed up a theory I've been considering for a while now regarding MMO communities of sufficient scale.

Boiled down, it goes like this:

Once a player base of a certain size has been reached, any decision by the devs will be opposed by roughly the same number of players (with few exceptions).

While at face value this looks like the same group of gamers will complain no matter what occurs, that's not it at all. In fact, that scenario would be a far worse one (encouraging this is addressed as "Approach 1" below).

On the contrary, allow me to demonstrate what I mean with some examples. If you find yourself saying "nobody could really want that!" or "how many people could possibly object to that?" I want you to bear in mind that what you are experiencing isn't evidence against my theory, but actually the phenomenon I'm describing manifesting itself in you on an individual level.

So here goes:

• Some people feel that all the dungeons are too hard: that none of them are actually completable, or if so, wouldn't be at all fun.
  
• Some people believe all dungeons are too easy: simply not a challenge under any scenario for a good group.
  
• Some people hate any events designed so that "you have to be there": meaning if you miss a scheduled point in time, you miss out altogether.
  
• Some people hate "everyone's a winner" event content: as long as you have an account, the experience is the same for everybody.
  
• Some people hate the "cosmetic endgame": the idea that all you're doing past a certain point in playtime is playing dress-up with your avatar.
  
• Some people want even more focus on cosmetics: more skins and ways to get skins, physical appearance changes, and a rejection of any vertical progression, and want these things more than new gameplay content.
  
• As in my quoted examples above, some people want events to carry lesser rewards (in case you miss them), some people want guaranteed better rewards (because you put in the work, after all).
  
• There's the most exhausted example: roughly the same number of people will be happy vs unhappy when a class is nerfed, depending on whether or not it's theirs or that of their opponents

For every Markot on this board, quitting and (somewhat ludicrously) getting a refund out of a fear of the slippery slope into gear grind hell, there's Tokram on another board, quitting and asking for a refund three months from now because he's still using the exact same items he was back at Halloween.

While I've long understood the "you can't please everybody" concept, it wasn't until recently that it dawned on me that the number of displeased players, with some degree of deviation, will largely remain the same no matter what.

To throw together some fake, highly speculative numbers:

Let's say your playerbase is one million (1,000,000). We know for a fact this is way less, less than half in fact, of GW2's actual sales so far, but just for ease of computation.

Now let's say that roughly 5%, give or take 2%, will be unhappy with a given decision (say, the rewards for killing the Ancient Karka).

So 93-97% of the playerbase is content. The other 3-7%, which represents 30,000-70,000 gamers, are unhappy. Note: these unhappy thousands could be unhappy with regard to anything about the rewards- pissed they were so good and they missed them, pissed that they weren't better because of how hard they were to get, pissed that they were good but didn't get a precursor unlike others, pissed just that they were on a different scale than past rewards- for this example, all these people fall under the same 3-7%.

Of those unhappy gamers, let's say that depending on the scope of the issue, 1% up to a maximum of 50%, give or take 2%, are the "vocal" subset of the community- people like us, who post on message boards, talk to the devs, follow subreddits, etc. That's ~300-35000 gamers who are upset, have the means and motivation to voice their discontent, and will do so. The vast majority of players- around 95%- are either content enough with the game or not involved enough with it to complain vocally about it. The majority of the gamers who are discontent are still not going to voice their complaints loudly on the internet. That leaves the other portion, which I'll call the "malcontent pool."

My contention is that the number of vocally discontent gamers comprising the malcontent pool will not appreciably change regardless of the decision. To use this weekend as an easy example: if the rewards had been better, more people would be upset for having missed out on the event, but fewer would be unhappy with what they got. If the rewards were made worse, more people would be upset with the rewards, but fewer would complain about their one-time (or one-day, as it turned out, because we're oh-so-clever) nature.

Different subsets of the vocal minority will speak up when any given decision is made, such that the pool of unhappy players never really shrinks or grows- it is simply composed of different people at any point in time.

My impression is that developers like ArenaNet know this to be true. What can you do about it? By and large, there are two approaches:

Approach 1) In order to keep the pool of unhappy players as stable as possible, settle into a pattern of "safe" content. That is, don't really ever do anything unexpected- make sure your playerbase knows what's coming, and make sure not to do anything that would dramatically upset anyone other than the people who are already upset. If you charge a subscription fee, I have to say that this strikes me as the simpler, more-logical approach.
Approach 2) Embrace the fact that the number cannot be appreciably lessened, and keep your playerbase on its toes, despite the fact that a different subset of your fans will be upset at essentially every step along the way. Change things at will and deal with the resulting issues as they come, even if it means a larger variety of complaints.​

By and large ArenaNet seems to be following method 2. There are going to be stumbles along the way, mistakes and glitches and ideas that went off the rails. There are also going to be extraordinary triumphs, moments that cause unbridled arcade-gamey joy in hundreds of thousands of people at once. If you take a step back and look at this game through of lens of "how is this all going to look in 3 years?" it is, in my opinion, difficult to not at least be impressed with what they're trying to do.

What does all this mean for us? So far as I can tell, three things.

1) Just posting about the game (as we're doing daily) won't have any impact on it. I mean it- whether you fall into the caricature of "entitled whiner" or "obnoxious fanboy" like me, all of this is inconsequential to what's going to happen with the game. It's only worthwhile if you actually enjoy or get something out of the argument itself. Hint: it happens to be fun for me, if you were wondering
2) The vocal minority is beneficial to the playerbase as a whole- ArenaNet should not listen to them solely, nor listen to them 100% of the time, nor listen to them on any particular subject. However, their clarion voices become exceedingly important when an issue arises that DOES impact a greater number than the malcontent pool, but wouldn't be made public loudly enough without them. A fantastic example is the scenario with people who got DCed or crashed during the event and didn't get rewards. Complaints were made, ArenaNet read them, and responded same-day that a solution would be offered to these players. This is one of the "few exceptions" I mentioned in the postulated theory. Getting ArenaNet to speak out on culling is another. No one defends these things and it's to the benefit of all that they get fixed- there aren't two sides. For all the vitriol, this is, in my opinion, an example of MMO community dynamics at their best.
3) They're going to keep doing stuff like this. Or, more accurately, they're going to keep doing lots of different things, and some of them will be like this. Others will be completely different.​

If you're the type that has been dramatically upset by anything that has happened so far, you're likely to experience that feeling a few more times before the life cycle of this game is over.

My approach (and I hope I have not come off as attempting to push this on anyone) is to constantly bear in mind that what is being attempted here is unprecedented, and take the good with the bad. Without charging a monthly fee, this game experiences an increasing return on investment with every hour of enjoyment that passes. Even if I had paid full price (which I didn't), and even if 100 hours of my playtime were worthless and grueling (they weren't) and cut from the equation, I'd have thus far paid 11 cents per hour of enjoyment since my purchase, and the amount of content and refinement of the experience has also increased over time. This is outstanding and something any game, regardless of scale, should strive to achieve.

Tragic as it might sound, upsetting hundreds of people every single day is par for the course in this genre. How the fallout is dealt with is what sets any given developer apart from the pack. From now on, I'm going to keep in mind that the raging of the malcontent pool has no tangible impact on my own enjoyment, and will benefit everyone in the long term.

 

[flyinpiranha]

The event did go on for too long, but I felt each part could have been awesome if it wasn't just so much of a zerg. When I look back on the missions themselves; setting up explosives, leading the ancient back and such ... it's a great idea!

I just felt you were stuck for too long. I spent almost 20 silver just repairing (and with only about 1.5g it hurt) ... but luckily, I got a drop that sold for almost 2g so now ... for the first time ever at level 75 ... I have over 2g (besides buying my trait book at 60).

It did suck having 5 or 6 of those champion things rolling around annihilating everybody, it was basically

1) First wave insta dies because many couldn't see it
2) Second wave of people slowly back up the ramp while killing them slowly
3) run down and res first wave
4) Second wave dies same way first did while first wave is healing up and such
5) repeat

I honestly don't understand people's arguments against the events and such, it's the price you pay for a constantly evolving world. It sucks that you missed it, but I missed a vast majority of Halloween stuff due to family trouble and I'm not blaming the game (didn't even get to go to the Mad King stuff).

I also don't understand the anger at the drops. Shit is random yo, THIS type of random drop I like, it's when it's behind a shitty paywall like Halloween that I don't like it. But being mad because some people received great drops and you didn't? That's what an MMO is!

EDIT:

@ Hawk

You bring up some valid points, especially about the vocal aspect of MMO playerbases. A vast majority of people never go to the forums nor complain. In fact even for me, "complaining about a game" to the "world" didn't happen until MMO's in general where the developer actually listens (some more than others) to their playerbase.

But at the same time, just because these few vocal people are complaining, doesn't mean that others aren't experiencing the same wants/regrets/issues of the vocal minority.

Either way, I think this is the way to handle the events. I'm sure at times I'll miss out on some great events but that's par for the course in a PERSISTENT online game such as this (I think people need to realize that the game happens even when you're not logged in). But I really do enjoy this type of event with a 1% chance (made up stat) to get something cool then it being behind a paywall such as Halloween.

Either way, with the bad vibes of Halloween gone and the sweet (though zergy) taste of this world event settling in ... I can say that I'm in it for the long haul and I'm willing to see what Anet has to offer down the road.

Plus, I'm almost 80 and then you'll be seeing more of me. I just hated being so undergeared/traited for runs and such that I felt more of a hindrance than a boon.

 

[Rawk Hawk]

Question: What do people mean by "culling"?

Removing people from the guild to make space for active players.

 

[Hawkian]

Removing people from the guild to make space for active players.

Uh-oh! No- while we do use the term to mean that, the much more relevant definition refers to a graphical technique that helps rendering load by simply not showing things until they're needed- except in some cases it takes too long. Players and mobs might be invisible and get a chance to kill you before you can see them. Needs to be fixed on the engine side.

 

[Giard]

Uh-oh! No- while we do use the term to mean that, the much more relevant definition refers to a graphical technique that helps rendering load by simply not showing things until they're needed- except in some cases it takes too long. Players and mobs might be invisible and get a chance to kill you before you can see them. Needs to be fixed on the engine side.

Ahhh, thanks.
That would explain why I was killed when nothing happened during the event.

 

[Rawk Hawk]

Uh-oh! No- while we do use the term to mean that, the much more relevant definition refers to a graphical technique that helps rendering load by simply not showing things until they're needed- except in some cases it takes too long. Players and mobs might be invisible and get a chance to kill you before you can see them. Needs to be fixed on the engine side.

Hahaha oh, for some reason I thought the poster was reading back a few pages and "the people" he referred too was us on the forum, nice catch. Thanks.

 

[Hawkian]

Ahhh, thanks.
That would explain why I was killed when nothing happened during the event.

What's odd (and both a good sign and cause for concern at the same time) is that the second time I did the event (with the same toon, so no chest ), there was no culling at all- fewer people being the likely deciding factor. It was about 100% more enjoyable with that problem gone, too. A hard cap on overflow population (since they are dynamically generated shards anyway) might be the easiest way out.

Hahaha oh, for some reason I thought the poster was reading back a few pages and "the people" he referred too was us on the forum, nice catch. Thanks.

Between the two of us, nothing will escape our sight! #hawkvision

 

[Shanlei91]

Hey, to be fair, you pulled a precursor out of Kholer's Chest in a Ghost Eater run. There were Gods smiling on you with that one... they just happen to have been the Greek kind that give you an Awesome Bull, only to expect you to turn around and offer it as sacrifice. When you choose to ignore their subtle hints, is it any surprise your wife ends up getting plowed by said bull while wearing a ridiculous wooden cow costume? Anyways, that was an epic moment that will live in the history of our small little dungeon group and eventually the prices will bounce back... but probably not as high as before.

It was definitely a twisted cosmic joke - but getting it at all was amazing.

But I don't know what hurts more, the fact that I could have made 100 more gold if I hadn't gambled or that I paid 15g on the listing fee.

 

[Noisy Ninj4]

It was definitely a twisted cosmic joke - but getting it at all was amazing.

But I don't know what hurts more, the fact that I could have made 100 more gold if I hadn't gambled or that I paid 15g on the listing fee.

That's a pretty good point. I couldn't have sold any of the really expensive items even if it'd gotten one without selling my mystic forge conduit. I did end up selling it to get the energizer, though. That little conduit was probably my best investment in this game to date.

 

[nicoga3000]

Some very valid points Hawkian. Honestly, it's stuff that I figured people inherently knew about a game like this, but sometimes it needs to be stated.

And do people not remember the one-time event in WoW that yielded a mount that only ONE PERSON on each server could EVER get? I can't imagine what something like that would do to today's MMO players.

 

[Levyne]

I held onto my mad mood drop way too long at it lost a lot of value before I sold it. It will probably go up again eventually but I needed gold quick haha

 

[flyinpiranha]

Some very valid points Hawkian. Honestly, it's stuff that I figured people inherently knew about a game like this, but sometimes it needs to be stated.

And do people not remember the one-time event in WoW that yielded a mount that only ONE PERSON on each server could EVER get? I can't imagine what something like that would do to today's MMO players.

Ha, I remember we were rushing to spite this other guild, they had the thing to ring the gong and so did we. Two people, spamming as fast as they could! Unfortunately they got it but our dude still got the mount. As long as you completed the gong within 24 hours you still got the mount I'm pretty sure (WoW memory is hazy!)

 

[Zyrusticae]

I had a long post written up here, but all I'm going to say is:

They did NOT have to include precursors in the loot pool.

If they removed the precursors, a lot of drama could have been avoided.

As it is, you now have people pissed about missing out on the event, people pissed that the rewards were better than every event before it, AND people pissed about others randomly getting precursors worth 100+g on market. They should have struck that last one out entirely - there is literally no downside. No one's going to complain that a one-time event didn't drop a precursor. Tons of people are going to complain about not getting one when other people did.

Boneheaded move, frankly.

 

[Levyne]

But lots of people benefit from lower precursor TP prices even if they didn't get one as a drop (or even participated). I suppose you would have to be logged on within the window of lower prices. No idea where they sit now.

 

[Deitus]

Is that not because the majority of post from some posters are just all the positives and seemingly ignore all the flaws and issues within the game too? I have nothing against people enjoying the game (but there are posters - and Retro is one - where I take what they say with a pinch of salt), I'm enjoying the game, but at the same time I'm aware there are things I do not like (and believe could be improved).

I'm sorry, but you are being a bit ridiculous here. I feel like you have some kind of grudge against Retro, and I'm not really sure why.

Should you take things that Retro says with a grain of salt? Sure. Everyone has a different perspective on this game and his is, on the whole, decidedly positive. That's not a bad thing; it's okay to enjoy a game. But one person's perceptive, positive or negative, cannot account for the perspectives of every person reading the comments, and ultimately everything in this thread should be taken with a grain of salt.

But that's not really what you are doing. You aren't saying "I'm skeptical that what Retro says is biased, and I'm not sure if it applies to me." You are taking every opportunity to announce to the entire thread "Don't listen to Retro, he is just using PR speak, I'll even come up with a witty way to incorporate PR into his name to prove it; don't listen to Ondore's lies!" It is frankly antagonistic, and childish. If you want to call him out on things he has said that are incorrect, by all means do. If you want to accuse him of bias and glossing over negatives, go ahead, but be prepared to back up your claims. But whatever you do, be a little more mature about it.


That being said, I think you may not notice if you haven't followed this thread the entire time (and I'm not implying that you should have to), but most of the "positive" posters in this thread, Retro included, are perfectly capable of discussing negative aspects of this game, even going as far as to say "this is bad game design, and ArenaNet needs to fix it right away." There may be someone in the thread who never does that, but I can't think of anyone. But the thing is, the major flaws that the game has are well known, and have been discussed to death, so at some point most of us just get bored complaining about the flaws and want to get back to enjoying the game.

 

[nicoga3000]

Ha, I remember we were rushing to spite this other guild, they had the thing to ring the gong and so did we. Two people, spamming as fast as they could! Unfortunately they got it but our dude still got the mount. As long as you completed the gong within 24 hours you still got the mount I'm pretty sure (WoW memory is hazy!)

Sorry, yeah - it was 10 hours after the event, you could bang the gong and get the Scarab Lord title and the Black Qiraji Resonating Crystal. The chain was so difficult though, that only a few people on every realm got it. I can't IMAGINE the salt today.

 

[Zyrusticae]

The WoW mount thing is completely different - it's a mount. Who really cares?

Btw, even after the precipitous precursor price drop (yay alliteration!), most players cannot afford such incredibly high prices. The players lucky enough to get one basically get catapulted into the upper echelon of player wealth for no reason other than a lucky dice roll (and developer negligence).

 

[Deitus]

The WoW mount thing is completely different - it's a mount. Who really cares?

Btw, even after the precipitous precursor price drop (yay alliteration!), most players cannot afford such incredibly high prices. The players lucky enough to get one basically get catapulted into the upper echelon of player wealth for no reason other than a lucky dice roll (and developer negligence).

They have said recently that they are working on coming up with new ways for players to earn Precursors so that the precursor economy is not so skewed. I would say that the inclusion of precursors in this event was an attempt to spike the supply, shaking up the market, and hoping it settles on lower prices. That was clearly not enough, but it was the first step.

 

[Brazil]

The WoW mount thing is completely different - it's a mount. Who really cares?

Millions of WoW players.

 

[Mr. Luchador]

I'm sorry, but you are being a bit ridiculous here. I feel like you have some kind of grudge against Retro, and I'm not really sure why.

Should you take things that Retro says with a grain of salt? Sure. Everyone has a different perspective on this game and his is, on the whole, decidedly positive. That's not a bad thing; it's okay to enjoy a game. But one person's perceptive, positive or negative, cannot account for the perspectives of every person reading the comments, and ultimately everything in this thread should be taken with a grain of salt.

But that's not really what you are doing. You aren't saying "I'm skeptical that what Retro says is biased, and I'm not sure if it applies to me." You are taking every opportunity to announce to the entire thread "Don't listen to Retro, he is just using PR speak, I'll even come up with a witty way to incorporate PR into his name to prove it; don't listen to Ondore's lies!" It is frankly antagonistic, and childish. If you want to call him out on things he has said that are incorrect, by all means do. If you want to accuse him of bias and glossing over negatives, go ahead, but be prepared to back up your claims. But whatever you do, be a little more mature about it.


That being said, I think you may not notice if you haven't followed this thread the entire time (and I'm not implying that you should have to), but most of the "positive" posters in this thread, Retro included, are perfectly capable of discussing negative aspects of this game, even going as far as to say "this is bad game design, and ArenaNet needs to fix it right away." There may be someone in the thread who never does that, but I can't think of anyone. But the thing is, the major flaws that the game has are well known, and have been discussed to death, so at some point most of us just get bored complaining about the flaws and want to get back to enjoying the game.

Probably mentioned it twice in the last week, which isn't bad considering I've read what he's been posting since before the OP. There's not truly personal about it, just a bit tiresome for grand claims to be made without any substance added to them. Such as the ranged weapons moment last week. I wouldn't have cared so much if it had been worded differently, and more details given originally, but the way it had been presented suggested that GW2 and turned the 'Guardian/Paladin' role on it's head and made them a viable ranged class - which they are not.

For what it's worth I am not judging all posters in this thread on Retro, what I am saying is that for the most part there are posters in here who cannot deal with people not enjoying the game, and seem keen to defend it to the hilt. When they talk about the game they only seem to talk about the positives, and don't give a constructive picture of the overall game and experience. This isn't unique to this thread, it's a general theme on most messageboards. As for trying to call me out to be Childish, fair enough, but I would like to see a child use the level of wit I mustered to develop a pun around PR and Retro like I did in a heartbeat. Alas, it would appear that this thread is going to turn into a slagging match because I've mentioned something that upsets people - the general precious feeling towards games that they like.

Sure I'm not invested in this as much as those who played GW1 and have waited years to play GW2, but that doesn't mean their opinions are any greater than anyone else when it comes to playing computer games, or indeed, GW2. I get it, you guys like each other, and are going to protect and defend each other if someone speaks out. If you are bored of replying to people's complaints, why reply at all? People seem happy to reply to put down the complaints and defend GW2.

 

[br0ken_shad0w]

You have to realize many people (me included) came to Guild Wars 2 to get away from WoW and its many clones. We wanted an MMO that’s not WoW-like and ANet sold us on that idea. While I do agree that this current discussion regarding loot drops is fucking stupid, the arguments regarding ascended gear, agony, etc. do have some merit to them and I hate to see it simply dismissed as being whiny.

 

[flyinpiranha]

The WoW mount thing is completely different - it's a mount. Who really cares?

Btw, even after the precipitous precursor price drop (yay alliteration!), most players cannot afford such incredibly high prices. The players lucky enough to get one basically get catapulted into the upper echelon of player wealth for no reason other than a lucky dice roll (and developer negligence).

Can't you get pre-cursors from world drops and boss kills also? I mean, from that context shouldn't EVERYBODY that has every gotten one fall under your scrutiny?

I see it as a world event with (probably better than expected or anticipated) percentage of getting a pre-cursor.

I mean, I thought I read somebody got one on ghost-eater run, is that 'developer negligence'. I don't see how having a world event with a chance to get a pre-cursor is any different than any other boss with the chance to drop one.

I think the reason we're seeing so many people get them is this was a WORLD EVENT, I could only imagine that that boss being killed was more than any other boss at once, and the most visible, and the most at one time. I wonder what the actual percentages were.

But I just don't see the difference from getting it from an event boss or a boss in a dungeon.

 

[nicoga3000]

Hawkian, check that PM I sent you.

Can't you get pre-cursors from world drops and boss kills also? I mean, from that context shouldn't EVERYBODY that has every gotten one fall under your scrutiny?

I see it as a world event with (probably better than expected or anticipated) percentage of getting a pre-cursor.

I mean, I thought I read somebody got one on ghost-eater run, is that 'developer negligence'. I don't see how having a world event with a chance to get a pre-cursor is any different than any other boss with the chance to drop one.

I think the reason we're seeing so many people get them is this was a WORLD EVENT, I could only imagine that that boss being killed was more than any other boss at once, and the most visible, and the most at one time. I wonder what the actual percentages were.

But I just don't see the difference from getting it from an event boss or a boss in a dungeon.

You are fighting an un-winnable war my friend. Seriously, it isn't even worth it at this point.

 

[Levyne]

Can't you get pre-cursors from world drops and boss kills also? I mean, from that context shouldn't EVERYBODY that has every gotten one fall under your scrutiny?

I see it as a world event with (probably better than expected or anticipated) percentage of getting a pre-cursor.

I mean, I thought I read somebody got one on ghost-eater run, is that 'developer negligence'. I don't see how having a world event with a chance to get a pre-cursor is any different than any other boss with the chance to drop one.

I think the reason we're seeing so many people get them is this was a WORLD EVENT, I could only imagine that that boss being killed was more than any other boss at once, and the most visible, and the most at one time. I wonder what the actual percentages were.

But I just don't see the difference from getting it from an event boss or a boss in a dungeon.

Well yeah it seems like IPoopStandingUp (....) got one out of a regular dungeon chest seeing a few posts up. I'm not sure that was possible before last thursday's patch that upped drop rates and precursor %.

 

[Hawkian]

Some very valid points Hawkian. Honestly, it's stuff that I figured people inherently knew about a game like this, but sometimes it needs to be stated.

And do people not remember the one-time event in WoW that yielded a mount that only ONE PERSON on each server could EVER get? I can't imagine what something like that would do to today's MMO players.

I probably would have had a better grasp if I'd ever played another MMO (I played the shit out of GW1 but that's it), but I just had to learn it over time. My first impression of the way things worked was definitely "oh there is a group of whiners that will always stay the same and make things worse for everyone," but I know it's a little more nuanced than that now.

I had a long post written up here, but all I'm going to say is:

They did NOT have to include precursors in the loot pool.

If they removed the precursors, a lot of drama could have been avoided.

As it is, you now have people pissed about missing out on the event, people pissed that the rewards were better than every event before it, AND people pissed about others randomly getting precursors worth 100+g on market. They should have struck that last one out entirely - there is literally no downside. No one's going to complain that a one-time event didn't drop a precursor. Tons of people are going to complain about not getting one when other people did.

Boneheaded move, frankly.

Whoosh?

Just kidding, but when you take a step back, there absolutely is no black and white here. The bolded- please, please rest assured that not only it is false that no one would complain, a roughly equivalent number of people would and have complained that one-time events did not drop precursors (including at Halloween), or event that dungeon chests don't drop precursors, or that you don't get a precursor for completing the story, or that precursors/legendaries are just too hard to get in the first place to be worth even trying for (think about how happy the % of that subset of players that happened to get precursors from this event must be!).

Zyrusticae, you aren't wrong- there is no wrong in any of your opinions regarding this event. But objectively, this time around you simply belong to the subset of the playerbase that is unhappy that precursors were included in the loot drops. You'll find plenty of people that agree with you, and at the same time you'll find plenty of people who disagree, who might be completely thrilled at this chance to obtain a precursor they thought they'd never get.

I know it's hard to conceptualize right now, but I believe very, very strongly that there was no outcome- no reward, no result- that would have pleased 100% of the players. No chance.

The WoW mount thing is completely different - it's a mount. Who really cares?

Btw, even after the precipitous precursor price drop (yay alliteration!), most players cannot afford such incredibly high prices. The players lucky enough to get one basically get catapulted into the upper echelon of player wealth for no reason other than a lucky dice roll (and developer negligence).

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeehhhh. Most players can't afford such prices? That sounds like a really, really good reason to include a chance to get those items from special one-time events. The players lucky enough to get one can sell them for a large profit? Clearly they didn't actually want the precursor then- and this event brought the price of precursors down for everyone wanting to buy one. It seems to me that your points about what happened as a result of this "mistake" are great evidence as to why it was actually a good idea!

There's also the fact that... the game isn't "about" precursors or even legendaries. As has been discussed many many times, the effects are almost solely cosmetic. The stat boost isn't broad enough to make an impact on gameplay (nor should it ever be). And all the gold in the world- thousands of gold- wouldn't enable you to use a stronger weapon or wear two sets of armor at the same time. Who cares about mounts? Well, in this case, a single mount would make a bigger difference than every precursor in the game combined

But again, I'm not trying to convince you of anything at all. You're not wrong. Just trying to provide some perspective.

Lunchtime!

 

[Vossler]

I thought the event, while VERY, VERY long, was worth it in the end. Yeah, I didn't get the best drops in the world, (exotics only sold for 2g total on tp), but the accessory and 20 slot box helped. Also, while kind of upset that I didn't get a precursor, not much I can do about it now. I think that they should have at least modified the loot tables to exempt those on a free trial account, even though that may make them more money in the end. Reinforcements were a drag, and I feel as thought the scaling process was off. Interesting experience for their first real big foray into one time events, glad i did it.

 

[flyinpiranha]

I thought the event, while VERY, VERY long, was worth it in the end. Yeah, I didn't get the best drops in the world, (exotics only sold for 2g total on tp), but the accessory and 20 slot box helped. Also, while kind of upset that I didn't get a precursor, not much I can do about it now. I think that they should have at least modified the loot tables to exempt those on a free trial account, even though that may make them more money in the end. Reinforcements were a drag, and I feel as thought the scaling process was off. Interesting experience for their first real big foray into one time events, glad i did it.

Hehe, that bolded part. I'm only 75 (now) so when I saw that the exotic I didn't need sold for 2g on the TP I danced a money jig! I have been scraping by because it seems things just don't sell for me but I think once I hit 80 and start doing things with more desired loot my funds will improve.

 

[fmpanda]

I thought the event, while VERY, VERY long, was worth it in the end. Yeah, I didn't get the best drops in the world, (exotics only sold for 2g total on tp), but the accessory and 20 slot box helped. Also, while kind of upset that I didn't get a precursor, not much I can do about it now. I think that they should have at least modified the loot tables to exempt those on a free trial account, even though that may make them more money in the end. Reinforcements were a drag, and I feel as thought the scaling process was off. Interesting experience for their first real big foray into one time events, glad i did it.

I only got to play for a bit on Friday, so I ended up missing out on the 20 slot box, blargh. That would've been really nice. The one thing I do really like about this game though is that there is a lot of event content throughout the year, so there's always more special stuff like The Lost Shores around the corner.

On another note, I'm going to need to get back into the guild shortly as I really need to clear out a lot of the story dungeons and PUGs can drive me insane, so look for a whisper from me peeps.

 

[Levyne]

I need to make more lvl 80 alts for future events. I probably won't though.

 

[Tess3ract]

From any capitol city, take the Asura Gate to Lion's Arch. You will immediately be in a large plaza with several similar gates leading to the other racial capitols.

I can get to the midget fish dude people from planescape or w/e but I couldn't figure how to get out so I gave up

 

[Moondrop]

It is clear to me that a side-goal of the event was a deliberate increase in the supply of precursors. That's the opposite of developer negligence, rather they're actively changing formulas with an eye on the greater economy.

The developers do this with the daily and monthly tasks as well. Without daily gathering rewards, the price of materials would rise greatly. Notice how the scavenging component of the monthly disappeared now that silk/mithril ore/leather from level 80 drops have flooded the market.

Concepts like "equality of opportunity" don't exist. The developers manipulate the market for their own reasons. Find insight into them and use that knowledge to your advantage.

P.S. Hawkian the Hawaiian.

 

[Shambles]

I thought the event, while VERY, VERY long, was worth it in the end. Yeah, I didn't get the best drops in the world, (exotics only sold for 2g total on tp), but the accessory and 20 slot box helped. Also, while kind of upset that I didn't get a precursor, not much I can do about it now. I think that they should have at least modified the loot tables to exempt those on a free trial account, even though that may make them more money in the end. Reinforcements were a drag, and I feel as thought the scaling process was off. Interesting experience for their first real big foray into one time events, glad i did it.

I don't think it's fair for the game to expect people to sit around for 3 hours to do an event. People have lives, people have families. It would be different if we had known ahead of time that it was going to be a hell of a lot longer than the vast majority of people thought it would be. After all, when we go into dungeons we know ahead of time that it's going to take a while and we have to plan our day around it. For people in Europe it probably wasn't as bad since a lot of parents probably were able to simply put their kids to bed and had everything done they needed to do but for North America or other parts of the world where it's the middle of the day you end up feeling chained to your computer unable to leave after two hours because you've already sunk that much time into it. Not knowing if it's going to be another 10 minutes or two hours. Just because there' a lot of anti-social personalities in MMOs doesn't mean the developer should be trying to push more people into those issues. Had they chopped off an entire hour of the 'kill the reinforcements' the event would have been 10X more enjoyable. It seems it dragged so long since it scaled the enemies health so high based on the number of people in the area but since there is a server population cap I don't understand how they could have been so far off. I'm all for epic scale global events but when you can only see allies/enemies that are within spitting distance of you it only gives you all the grinding of a global event without any of the atmosphere of actually being within a large group.

 

[Zyrusticae]

Whoosh?

Just kidding, but when you take a step back, there absolutely is no black and white here. The bolded- please, please rest assured that not only would no one complain, a roughly equivalent number of people would and have complained that one-time events did not drop precursors (including at Halloween), or event that dungeon chests don't drop precursors, or that you don't get a precursor for completing the story, or that precursors/legendaries are just too hard to get in the first place to be worth even trying for (think about how happy the % of that subset of players that happened to get precursors from this event must be!).

Zyrusticae, you aren't wrong- there is no wrong in any of your opinions regarding this event. But objectively, this time around you simply belong to the subset of the playerbase that is unhappy that precursors were included in the loot drops. You'll find plenty of people that agree with you, and at the same time you'll find plenty of people who disagree, who might be completely thrilled at this chance to obtain a precursor they thought they'd never get.

I know it's hard to conceptualize right now, but I believe very, very strongly that there was no outcome- no reward, no result- that would have pleased 100% of the players. No chance.

No, I know what you're talking about, and I completely, absolutely, 100% disagree on every level.

These things are measurable. There IS a middle ground. There is a large, wide swath (think of a venn diagram where the area met by the two circles is roughly 75%) where you can please both populations, and the ONLY people who complain are those out on the fringes.

An example that very clearly and very obviously bunks your argument is the EVE Online fiasco, whereby an enormous chunk of the player base outright rioted after a confluence of negative events ("Greed Is Good", captain's quarters, prices for Aurum goods, lack of attention towards Flying In Space) just drove people over the brink.

It wasn't a matter of 'oh, they just pissed off one side of the player base, but another side was happy!', it was a matter of 'they pissed off everybody!', and I assure you this is not an isolated case (though the severity probably was). Frankly, it outright proved that players who wanted 'walking in stations' content was a measurably small minority of the population (or at least, the current playing population), and that the decision to ignore 'FIS' content was a very, very poor one. Or it proved that the execution was absolutely terrible. Either way, they lost out.

Frankly, I think the dada-ish idea that 'no decision is inherently bad' is pure insanity. You can't develop with that kind of mindset. You can't get a direction. If you just leave developers exclusively to develop within their own mindset, their own ideas, you get... well, you get the current state of structured PvP where peak player concurrency never breaks 1,000 players. Not good!

You CAN find a middle ground. It is difficult. It's hard to measure. It's hard to get there. It's hard to even find it in the first place. But it IS possible. It is, effectively, exactly what makes World of Warcraft so successful - they find the middle ground in just about everything, hence the reason they maintain millions of players at all times of the year. I know a lot of players HATE World of Warcraft, but that's the simple truth - they're really good at what they do, and what they do is please the 90% of folks in the middle, leaving people in the fringes in the cold. Same thing with League of Legends, for that matter (surprisingly enough, considering their e-sport bent).

Arenanet is going to have to follow a similar direction. They can do so while maintaining their own identity, I have no doubt of that. It's not a bad thing to please the majority. And it IS possible. It is not an impossible, unreachable task. They can do it. Right now, though, they certainly do not seem to display the ability to do so...

It is clear to me that a side-goal of the event was a deliberate increase in the supply of precursors. That's the opposite of developer negligence, rather they're actively changing formulas with an eye on the greater economy.

Okay, but really? THERE ARE MUCH BETTER WAYS TO DO THIS. Add the scavenger hunt. Increase the chance for precursors to be forged. Decrease the materials required. Any of these would be better than randomly giving it to random people for a single, one-time event.

 

[nicoga3000]

It is clear to me that a side-goal of the event was a deliberate increase in the supply of precursors. That's the opposite of developer negligence, rather they're actively changing formulas with an eye on the greater economy.

The developers do this with the daily and monthly tasks as well. Without daily gathering rewards, the price of lumber and cooking mats would rise greatly. Notice how the scavenging component of the monthly disappeared now that silk/mithril ore/leather from level 80 drops have flooded the market.

Concepts like "equality of opportunity" don't exist. The developers manipulate the market for their own reasons. Find insight into them and use that knowledge to your advantage.

I would bet money on the fact that the economist ANet employs added a slightly higher chance to precursors as a way of trying to bring more of these items into the ecosystem as a way of trying to bring the prices down for some period of time (be it a few hours, days, weeks, months, etc).

 

[Mr. Luchador]

What settings do people use when recording GW2. Not enjoying the prospect of taking 6 hours to upload a 5 minute clip to youtube. Granted my upload is pretty poor, but I'm sure there are things I can do optimise file size and quality.

 

[flyinpiranha]

I wonder what the purpose of bringing the price down is, since it seems like otherwise they're trying to find ways to keep the value of the gold fairly high. Perhaps it's to gently lower the price as the new (easier?) method of obtaining precursors is implemented down the road, to keep it from just falling through the floor on people?

At launch it seemed like they had no fucking idea what they were doing, but that's economics for you. You never know exactly how things will go until you throw a couple million people in the mix. It's impressive how money is still so useful in this game, the TP isn't perfect but it has been very interesting to follow so far. I'd love to hear some insight from their economist on the topic.

I think they realize the prices are too high. Except for a very few percentage of players (let's just say "the one percent" amirite?!) that type of money is unattainable but with many regular players using legendaries as the litmus for endgame content, they have to satiate them somewhat.

100g isn't bad considering how many other things you have to do ... 300 is pretty rough though.

 

[AFollowerNotALeader]

The TP is a game in itself.

My characters' pension schemes are in Candy Corn. It's at the lowest possible price right now (1c) so it can only go up, right? *sad face*

 

[nicoga3000]

I think they realize the prices are too high. Except for a very few percentage of players (let's just say "the one percent" amirite?!) that type of money is unattainable but with many regular players using legendaries as the litmus for endgame content, they have to satiate them somewhat.

100g isn't bad considering how many other things you have to do ... 300 is pretty rough though.

Yup, agreed. Prior to my precursor drop, I had like, 4g. After running dungeons with magic find and gold find food, and now the fractals, I was able to make ~7g in a few days. That's with vendoring everything and salvaging rares. If I were to salvage and sell runes/sigils, sell mats, etc, I can see myself having made closer to ~10-12g.

 

[Proven]

One thing to add on: If you make the event repeatable and last 24 hours, but then make the rewards account bound, then you lower incentives for future players. So, if the event has a majority of the population going at it at the beginning, and then tapering off as times goes on... by the last 6 or so hours there will eventually not be enough people to help get through the event, as everyone else will be thinking "I got mine, I'm not going back to that."

Account Bound type things work better for a scavenger hunt type quest, as those tend to be made such that a small number of people can do it. A dungeon run works well too. But something like this, with a mass of players and everything to make it feel epic? Can't be done the same without giving a reason for players to repeat it.

My major gripe for the event was for why all the mobs on Southsun had such a miserable drop rate. At first I thought the veteran Karkas just didn't have a drop table at all, but I did wind up getting a shell and some pants later so I guess their drop rate is just shitty.

If I have to kill hundreds of mobs for this event, it would have been nice to have them actually drop stuff.

The only thing I can say is "party up". When in a party, it seems like everyone has a lower threshold of damage-needed-to-tag, and everyone also gets a higher-chance-of-something-dropping percentage. Also, with upscaled people getting kicked off, it should be a lot better.

No, I know what you're talking about, and I completely, absolutely, 100% disagree on every level.

These things are measurable. There IS a middle ground. There is a large, wide swath (think of a venn diagram where the area met by the two circles is roughly 75%) where you can please both populations, and the ONLY people who complain are those out on the fringes.

An example that very clearly and very obviously bunks your argument is the EVE Online fiasco, whereby an enormous chunk of the player base outright rioted after a confluence of negative events ("Greed Is Good", captain's quarters, prices for Aurum goods, lack of attention towards Flying In Space) just drove people over the brink.

It wasn't a matter of 'oh, they just pissed off one side of the player base, but another side was happy!', it was a matter of 'they pissed off everybody!', and I assure you this is not an isolated case (though the severity probably was). Frankly, it outright proved that players who wanted 'walking in stations' content was a measurably small minority of the population (or at least, the current playing population), and that the decision to ignore 'FIS' content was a very, very poor one. Or it proved that the execution was absolutely terrible. Either way, they lost out.

Frankly, I think the dada-ish idea that 'no decision is inherently bad' is pure insanity. You can't develop with that kind of mindset. You can't get a direction. If you just leave developers exclusively to develop within their own mindset, their own ideas, you get... well, you get the current state of structured PvP where peak player concurrency never breaks 1,000 players. Not good!

You CAN find a middle ground. It is difficult. It's hard to measure. It's hard to get there. It's hard to even find it in the first place. But it IS possible. It is, effectively, exactly what makes World of Warcraft so successful - they find the middle ground in just about everything, hence the reason they maintain millions of players at all times of the year. I know a lot of players HATE World of Warcraft, but that's the simple truth - they're really good at what they do, and what they do is please the 90% of folks in the middle, leaving people in the fringes in the cold. Same thing with League of Legends, for that matter (surprisingly enough, considering their e-sport bent).

Arenanet is going to have to follow a similar direction. They can do so while maintaining their own identity, I have no doubt of that. It's not a bad thing to please the majority. And it IS possible. It is not an impossible, unreachable task. They can do it. Right now, though, they certainly do not seem to display the ability to do so...

How do you know that they didn't find a middle ground time period, especially considering they had to have devs monitoring the situation as well? They have the data, we just have... people shouting.

 

[Divvy]

They're legendaries, they're supposed to be extremely rare. If anything this event helps lower the price of the one ingredient that's acquisition is entirely luck based. Before this, the average precursor was about 1/4-1/3 the cost needed to make a legendary. It's a good thing that that percentage has gone down.

 

[Deitus]

Probably mentioned it twice in the last week, which isn't bad considering I've read what he's been posting since before the OP. There's not truly personal about it, just a bit tiresome for grand claims to be made without any substance added to them. Such as the ranged weapons moment last week. I wouldn't have cared so much if it had been worded differently, and more details given originally, but the way it had been presented suggested that GW2 and turned the 'Guardian/Paladin' role on it's head and made them a viable ranged class - which they are not.

Likewise, I wouldn't have cared much about your posts if you had worded it differently. For instance, as someone who hasn't played a Guardian since the beta (back when they truly had no ranged option), I don't know what the state of their ranged game is, so I'm pretty interested in discussions on the subject. Sadly, for me at least, the antagonistic tone of your post seemed to overshadow the points you were making.

I think its fairly obvious that Guardians are not going to outperform Rangers in ranged damage, and they are probably not supposed to. But based on your post, they are probably not quite where ArenaNet wants them to be as far as being a viable option at range. On the other hand, having been on the receiving end of a few Guardian scepter attacks, I think you sell their ranged ability a bit short. It may not be impressive, or powerful, and the high visibility makes it easy to avoid, but especially in WvW it can still do decent damage to people at range, and will still be able to hit someone when people are grouped up.

For what it's worth I am not judging all posters in this thread on Retro, what I am saying is that for the most part there are posters in here who cannot deal with people not enjoying the game, and seem keen to defend it to the hilt. When they talk about the game they only seem to talk about the positives, and don't give a constructive picture of the overall game and experience. This isn't unique to this thread, it's a general theme on most messageboards. As for trying to call me out to be Childish, fair enough, but I would like to see a child use the level of wit I mustered to develop a pun around PR and Retro like I did in a heartbeat. Alas, it would appear that this thread is going to turn into a slagging match because I've mentioned something that upsets people - the general precious feeling towards games that they like.

I don't disagree that there has been a certain degree of defensiveness in this thread. There is also a lot of negativity from other posters, who are bitter that the game isn't exactly what they want. Calling you childish was childish on my part, so I'm sorry for that. I hope this thread doesn't turn into a slagging match, and I hope I haven't given you the impression that you can't say anything negative about this game.

Sure I'm not invested in this as much as those who played GW1 and have waited years to play GW2, but that doesn't mean their opinions are any greater than anyone else when it comes to playing computer games, or indeed, GW2. I get it, you guys like each other, and are going to protect and defend each other if someone speaks out. If you are bored of replying to people's complaints, why reply at all? People seem happy to reply to put down the complaints and defend GW2.

To be clear, I didn't say people were sick of replying to complaints. I think for the most part, people have been good about responding to complaints without being dismissive, except when the complaints are way over the top. My comment was that aspects of the game that are broken, culling, guesting not being implemented yet, WvW imbalances, and rewards being insufficient for certain activities, are all things that have been discussed at length in this thread, even by "positive" posters. If they haven't showed up much in the discussion lately, it's only because there is nothing new to say about them. If someone brings them up, I would expect people in the thread to not outright dismiss the claim, and I haven't seen that happen all that much.

I don't think that anyone's opinions are more valuable than anyone else's. My concern has always been that the tone of the discussion remains civil. People should feel free to criticize the game without being called an entitled whiner. People should also be free to speak positively about the game without being called a PR Shill. Ultimately mudslinging prevents real discussion, and generally shits up the thread.

And for that, I'll cop that I got a bit too confrontational here. I got a bit flustered by what I saw as a personal attack, and I perhaps sounded too antagonistic in my response. So let's end this now, rather than escalating anything. I think criticisms of this game will be better received if they are discussed civilly. But I agree some people in this thread, myself included, could be better at responding to criticisms, even if those criticisms are brought up in a negative manner.

 

[Mr. Luchador]

It's the internet, I'm a relaxed guy, no harm done. I appreciate where everyone is coming from, and perhaps I could try and be less blunt.

 

[Zyrusticae]

How do you know that they didn't find a middle ground time period, especially considering they had to have devs monitoring the situation as well? They have the data, we just have... people shouting.

Um.

They have created a situation where you have 'haves' and 'have-nots'.

By definition, it is impossible for this to be a middle ground. They have CREATED a divide where there was none before.

I'm still a little flabbergasted that people don't see this. They made a situation where some people benefited and others did not. They did it on three different levels, even (participated, got loot, but no precursor vs. participated, got precursor OR TWO vs. could not participate). This could have been avoided.

Edit: Oh, come to think of it, this is particularly jarring considering how hard they've worked to create an environment where everyone cooperates and nobody feels left out (removed kill stealing, added individual loot drops and gathering nodes). Why work against that?