gun crazy USA.

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Those are all valid options. So it walking assertively. That's what I do. I'm a pretty intimidating looking dude when I want to be and generally thieves are desperate cowards and won't take on someone that looks like he can handle himself. Nevermind that I love Sailor Moon and Gummy Bears, they don't know that :)

But the choice for self defense is just that: A choice. In many places someone is free to choose if they want to learn karate, or carry a pen-knife or pepper spray. And many many people do utilize those options. However it's not for everyone.

I agree...it's a choice 100%. We just disagree that CC should be one of the available choices. Also, that's so kawaii.

Depends on the situation. If someone is approaching you with a weapon I'd argue you have a natural right to protect yourself. You don't stop the aggressor by disarming the victim.

I advocate other methods of arming yourself...a small knife is effective in close quarters, and is just as easy to whip out (some are, anyway). And pepper spray. Sure, martial arts is phenomenal (and adds to walking assertively with confidence), though I do acknowledge that from any distance martial arts is about as useful as the swords were in Raiders of the Lost Ark.

Agree about the race. But open carry? Last time I discussed that here the general consensus was that it made everyone that doesn't carry "uncomfortable".

In this case, I chose CC because it was just the subject at hand. I'll still choose OC over CC because I simply trust the devil I know more than the devil I don't. Personal choice.

And while on the topic of choice, let me be clear (because I don't think I was earlier). I'm not saying that anyone practicing CC is a small penised, over compensating, jock grabbing testosterone fueled douchenozzle. I think it's a bad choice, and it kind of freaks me out. I know lots of people that have made choices that I don't agree with, but still consider them people. We disagree, but that doesn't mean that I'm of the opinion that CCers are shitty. I'm just saying that the choice is bad. And it's my opinion, nothing more.

That's why the cops only bother to put a gun in their holster when they're actually responding to a crime in progress, right?

Seriously?
 
I know you may find this hard to believe but there are people that realize government is absolutely necessary but at the same time is ultimately self serving and not always to be trusted.

One needs only to read a history book to see examples of the US government doing horrible things to its own people. Does that really make someone that doesn't have a blind trust in government a paranoid whacko these days?

I understand not trusting the government, I really do. I just think that if the US Federal government decided to turn its military prowess against its citizens for some insane reason, the citizen's "right to bear arms" would do little to protect them.

blind trust

It's not that black & white either. You are talking at that point about an armed revolution military forces vs citizens, when it's pretty clear the government has failed in some very fundamental ways, and it's at the brink of collapse. A lot of shit would have to happen first to get to that point, and a lot of other, non-gun related democratic measures had already failed (from the most powerful country in the world not living under a totalitarian regime, for example, that seems like a huge stretch). Did people defend their decision not to bail the banks back in 2008 with their weapons? The government has been screwing you over and over for a while now, and I don't see anyone taking up arms to them.

I would argue that the US as a democracy is set up in a way that no one can have that much power (turn the military against its citizens). If you don't trust the government as an institution there are many steps before trying to stage a nation-wide armed revolution.
 
I agree there's going to be an increase in the chance of something like that when you have a gun in your home. That's a part of the risk one takes. Thankfully people are free to weigh the pros vs cons and decide for themselves.

But the overall risk is greater, which means that it eclipses the risk deferred of an intruder being the one to shoot a resident. Where is the net gain?

I think we're operating on very different definitions of the word "defense" if yours includes "actions more likely to cause harm to the parties being defended"
 
But you do! This is where it gets counterintuitive but they've looked at this (to the best of their ability without the government able to really research this stuff). If an armed person confronts you and you pull a weapon to defend yourself your chances of getting shot just went up

Listen, if pacifism is working for you great. Have at it. Congrats. But the problem is you think your methodology should work for everyone in all situations. That's not realistic.

There are too many examples of people using their firearms responsibly to defend themselves. Sometimes you just don't have time to wait for the cops. Sometimes there's no time to withdraw.

I know it may be hard to grasp but some people take that chance because depending on their situation. I won't fault them for that or think they'd be safer getting mugged, robbed, raped, beaten.

A persons right to self defense is their individual right. Just because you may be perfectly comfortable giving that up doesn't mean others will or should be.
 
So it seems an argument from what seems to be actually reflected people is about the ability to protect yourself. Let me show you my mindset, coming from a country where guns aren't common, and why I don't need a gun to protect myself.

I don't think anyone in the world is opposed to the idea that you should be allowed to defend yourself. The difference in opinion here comes not from the idea that you should be allowed to defend yourself, but what that defense should be. I would never entertain the idea of needing a gun to feel safe. To me the problem is two-fold. If I am in a situation where I need a gun to be able to safely defend myself, would have to be a situation where I'm not sure the other party has a gun. So I need a gun to defend myself from guns. In a situation like that, I'd never feel safe. Yes, I'd have a higher chance of getting out of it, maybe, but I'd stay away from situations like that with all my might, because I would simply not feel safe in a situation where I can't be sure if others have guns.

The other part is that when defense is about one-upping your opponent, things escalate extremely quickly. In my city, other people's fists would be what I'd have to look out for. If you need a knife to feel safe with that, then suddenly knives are the norm. So you need a gun, then guns are the norm. So you need assault rifles.

Where does the line of self-defense go, anyway? I don't expect to be able to defend my country if we're invaded. I'm not trained in the military, so I would only do harm, even if I had a gun and was a good shot. Is it a defense against individuals? 9/11 was done by individuals. The bombing in Oslo was done by an individual. I can't hope to defend myself against that. I don't want to be able to defend myself against that. I feel extremely safe. I never fear for bodily harm from other people when I'm out on a regular day. That comes from deterrence and punishment; education and culture.

If people around me live in a state where they feel they can harm me because the law won't catch them is a country where you need to be able to defend yourself. That's not how it should be. People should stay away from violent crimes due to punishment, rapid apprehension and low fall-off rate in cases. A punishment system that builds on rehabilitation might also be key. I don't REALLY think the police could defend me if I'm held at gunpoint, but there's something ingrained in my society that makes people not do these things. And this is my government's successful crack-down on crime.

I do trust my government to protect me, so I don't have to have what the police have to be able to feel safe. Then I don't need to one-up my potential aggressors, and this in turn holds the "chosen weapon" (fist / knife / gun) to a low level that in any rate helps me survive. In a way, choosing away a right to have a gun against anyone that threatens my well-being might not only increase my survival rate due to a less severe form of aggression, but it in turn also lowers the survival rate of those that are fought back against.

Guns for the citizens of a country is all in all detrimental to the society I wish to live in. Someone that gets access to those guns are going to do something stupid. So instead of punching a random guy in the face, he's shot. So the victim needs a gun to protect against that, and it spirals.

I don't think an armed militia is key to preserve a free state, either. If your government is out of line, there are very civilized ways to protest and demand change. In one of the most advanced countries in the world, the last thing that should be needed is the ability to shoot your government in the face if they do something wrong.


Even though these are my opinions, it doesn't mean it's easy to alter the culture of US, which is probably its prevailing factor in contributing to a high gun-related death rate. Taking the statistics of Switzerland should play to that fact, since they have a lot of guns, and few gun-related murders. So it's not that a country where guns are normal to have is the problem, but how we respect those guns and respect other people. The question is if you can change that part of a culture without restricting guns. Norway has already proven that a country where no one has guns, one moron can still take some and kill too many people. No matter how many or few guns are in circulation, those tragedies are not fixed by fewer or more guns. The first part about fewer guns is important to remember when discussing gun rights, the second about more guns is important to remember when talking about safety.

Safety should not come at the cost of freedom.

EDIT: It seems people hold the idea that history is indication to the government doing harm to its people. Yes it is. But we're not in the 1700s or 1500s anymore. If the US government started doing horrible things to its people, the rest of the world wouldn't leave it up to a poorly trained militia to handle it. We're part of a global community, and with that comes an intergovernmental defense. And a militia can do very little against an army. The training they go through will mean your good shot will still not work against their advanced flanking tactics. Even if it ever came to infantry vs militia. If you really want to nit-pick at the second amendment, you should fight for the right to own tanks and fighter-jets.
 
Listen, if pacifism is working for you great. Have at it. Congrats. But the problem is you think your methodology should work for everyone in all situations. That's not realistic.

There are too many examples of people using their firearms responsibly to defend themselves. Sometimes you just don't have time to wait for the cops. Sometimes there's no time to withdraw.

I know it may be hard to grasp but some people take that chance because depending on their situation. I won't fault them for that or think they'd be safer getting mugged, robbed, raped, beaten.

A persons right to self defense is their individual right. Just because you may be perfectly comfortable giving that up doesn't mean others will or should be.

You're talking about the individual reacting to a situation. That is irrelevant when it comes to statistics, as the argument the person you were quoting was using.
 
Listen, if pacifism is working for you great. Have at it. Congrats. But the problem is you think your methodology should work for everyone in all situations. That's not realistic.

There are too many examples of people using their firearms responsibly to defend themselves. Sometimes you just don't have time to wait for the cops. Sometimes there's no time to withdraw.

I know it may be hard to grasp but some people take that chance because depending on their situation. I won't fault them for that or think they'd be safer getting mugged, robbed, raped, beaten.

A persons right to self defense is their individual right. Just because you may be perfectly comfortable giving that up doesn't mean others will or should be.

You're missing my point. People are making the decision to carry based on faulty information.
 
One of the premises on which our country was started is that the individual always has the right to protect themselves and their property from the state as it derives its power from the individual. Not the other way around. Also, when the state can't protect you from criminals, you should have the means to do so yourself.

That said, I'm not for the lame crap the NRA pulls to appease its largest donors and corporate partners, which ultimately undermines the right to bear arms principle.
 
EDIT: It seems people hold the idea that history is indication to the government doing harm to its people. Yes it is. But we're not in the 1700s or 1500s anymore. If the US government started doing horrible things to its people, the rest of the world wouldn't leave it up to a poorly trained militia to handle it. We're part of a global community, and with that comes an intergovernmental defense. And a militia can do very little against an army. The training they go through will mean your good shot will still not work against their advanced flanking tactics. Even if it ever came to infantry vs militia. If you really want to nit-pick at the second amendment, you should fight for the right to own tanks and fighter-jets.

I agree with everything you've said, and specifically this. Your second amendment rights will do nothing but get you alienated and killed if your town militia goes against a trained army.
 
Forgive me if I don't necessarily trust a source called GunFacts.info

http://www.newscientist.com/article...ncreases-risk-of-getting-shot-and-killed.html

They did a study in the city of Philadelphia, and it showed that, "people who carry a gun," had an increased risk of getting shot.

Notice that they did not conduct their study to determine whether, "people who carry a gun legally," had the same increased risk. Their stats are based on anyone going out on the street with a pistol shoved down their pants, including those who intend to seek out and commit violence.

Nice "study."


And thats not even touching that even if you keep a gun in the home they're more likely to die from gun homicide:

http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/160/10/929.full


Includes suicide, which accounts for about 83% of "gun deaths in the home." (see here ) Guns are used for more suicides per year in the US than homicides. People use guns for suicide because they are effective in getting the job done. But without guns, people would still commit suicide. (see Japan) Would eliminating private gun ownership in the US affect the number of suicides? (i.e. does having a gun in the home make it more likely that a person will resort to suicide because an easy, effective method is available?) ... perhaps so. But it is still incorrect to say that keeping a gun in your home makes it more likely you'll die from "homicide" when 83% of the deaths used to construct that statistic are actually suicides.

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I agree with everything you've said, and specifically this. Your second amendment rights will do nothing but get you alienated and killed if your town militia goes against a trained army.

Yes, exactly. And this is not how a modern society works. It can't be considered relevant to "defend yourself against your government" in this regard. We aren't barbarians where the biggest club wins, where a government can mow down its own people. We protest and demand change if our government is out of line. And there are way more recounts in recent (and thus relevant) history arguing for this, in our own countries or countries similar to our own.

If anything, I'd argue that the republicans in your government are the ones already doing harm to the people. I don't have to pay out of my ass from being unlucky yesterday and dropping a big-ass knife on my foot (true story), and I could go to an emergency room and not worry about the cost. Most people in the US either can't or are at the mercy of a privately owned insurance company. When you're talking about the government being "self-serving" (which in itself makes no sense, since the government isn't a corporate institution, and is only self-serving when serving the people), you're forgetting that you're putting your own well-being at the mercy of someone that's truly self-serving, as capitalism dictates they be. Drive costs down, margins up, you don't make money from morality.
 
Could I ask anyone who lives in the USA and owns/purchases guns, is it primarily for hunting or protection? Do you find the allure around guns similar to that of cars (for car hobbyists)?

I only own a shotgun. I mainly use it for hunting and shooting trap, as does my family with theirs. Self-defense is not really a consideration for us.
 
Yes, exactly. And this is not how a modern society works. It can't be considered relevant to "defend yourself against your government" in this regard. We aren't barbarians where the biggest club wins, where a government can mow down its own people. We protest and demand change if our government is out of line. And there are way more recounts in recent (and thus relevant) history arguing for this, in our own countries or countries similar to our own.

If anything, I'd argue that the republicans in your government are the ones already doing harm to the people. I don't have to pay out of my ass from being unlucky yesterday and dropping a big-ass knife on my foot (true story), and I could go to an emergency room and not worry about the cost. Most people in the US either can't or are at the mercy of a privately owned insurance company. When you're talking about the government being "self-serving" (which in itself makes no sense, since the government isn't a corporate institution, and is only self-serving when serving the people), you're forgetting that you're putting your own well-being at the mercy of someone that's truly self-serving, as capitalism dictates they be. Drive costs down, margins up, you don't make money from morality.

Oh, we agree re: the current Republican party. And I was a Republican for 3 or 4 years. I'd respond with a good gif of clinking beer mugs, but I didn't see anything aside from a bunch of hobbits on my GIS.
 
They did a study in the city of Philadelphia, and it showed that, "people who carry a gun," had an increased risk of getting shot.

Notice that they did not conduct their study to determine whether, "people who carry a gun legally," had the same increased risk. Their stats are based on anyone going out on the street with a pistol shoved down their pants, including those who intend to seek out and commit violence.

Nice "study."
You're right about this particular study. Its a shame that this is the only study about the issue of carrying a gun out and about that I can find casually at all. I can't even find one that says the opposite, that statistically it makes you safer. Wouldn't it be nice if we had more information? If there wasn't a powerful interest in this country vested in keeping people as ignorant about gun statistics as possible?
Includes suicide, which accounts for about 83% of "gun deaths in the home." (see here ) Guns are used for more suicides per year in the US than homicides. People use guns for suicide because they are effective in getting the job done. But without guns, people would still commit suicide. (see Japan) Would eliminating private gun ownership in the US affect the number of suicides? (i.e. does having a gun in the home make it more likely that a person will resort to suicide because an easy, effective method is available?) ... perhaps so. But it is still incorrect to say that keeping a gun in your home makes it more likely you'll die from "homicide" when 83% of the deaths used to construct that statistic are actually suicides.

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Erm...it states very specifically that both homicide and suicide rates go up.
 
I know that when my house is on fire I call people with guns so that they can shoot the fire away.

++!

Now I wish I had a gif. Also, when I dropped a knife on my foot yesterday, I yelled "where's my gun" to my girlfriend. I was furious when she said I didn't have one.
 
I just find it incredible that you can buy guns at your local supermarket. This is a total anathema to us living in the UK. I have never seen a gun (besides the security police at aiports), let alone touch one. I have been to the States on 5 occasions and loved every visit, the people are so friendly (bar the impatient motorists in San Fran!) it just doesn't seem it should be a gun owning culture.

Owning a gun doesn't suddenly make you a terrible person. I own guns and I'm quite friendly. >_<

The reason it doesn't seem like that by the way is because the vast majority of gun owners are safe and responsible. The goal for most people is to reduce accidents and preventable gun-related deaths without revoking a basic right we've had for hundreds of years. It's really hard for people to understand that who come from a country where gun ownership was basically banned outright and guns were not a major part of the history and culture in the first place.
 
You're missing my point. People are making the decision to carry based on faulty information.

As an individual who has used a gun defensively to prevent my own assault I understand that an easy to use deadly weapon increases the risk of accident or injury which is why I am trained and am willing to help educate and train anyone who asks.
 
Man, when things start going downhill (not like they aren't already) you'll wish you had a gun to protect yourself. Everyday I am astounded at the blatant stupidity and ignorance you people have towards guns. BTW read 1984. That's not gonna happen in more conservative areas. Also inb4 Ron Paul meme etc.

I know that when my house is on fire I call people with guns so that they can shoot the fire away.

I have found that this is the general attitude liberals have towards things that they don't fully understand. I know I am coming off hostile, but its the truth.
 
Erm...it states very specifically that both homicide and suicide rates go up.

Increased risk of dying by gun homicide in the home 1.9%.

Increased risk of dying by gun suicide in the home 31.1%. (vs. other methods of suicide)

Increased risk (for males) of committing suicide in the home 10.1%.

I'm not sure how informative the suicide numbers really are. Considering that they only measure suicides 'in the home,' if you own a gun and want to use it to kill yourself, you'll probably do so at home. If you don't own a gun and want to kill yourself, you're probably more likely to seek a method outside the home (jump in front of a bus or jump off a building).

Anyway, while their statistics support an increase for both, it is only marginal for an increased risk of dying by gun homicide when a gun is kept in the home. Considering that they probably count a meth house as a, "home," I'm not particularly persuaded.
 
You don't have a fire extinguisher handy? Then again I guess people with fire extinguishers are just paranoid.

I guess so, given that fire extinguishers can miss their target and kill an innocent bystander. Additionally, drive by fire extinguishing deaths have risen DRAMATICALLY in Chicago over the last few years, and then there are the poor souls killed by random chemicals coming down from the sky as irresponsible fire extinguisher owners shoot them into the air during New Years and 4th of July celebrations.
 
I don't own a gun and frown on people that own small stashes of them. But I do support the right of people to defend themselves and their property.

A good example is my grandfather. He is 85 years old now, still gets around well and enjoys life, but lives in a neighborhood that is rapidly deteriorating around him. Forced home invasions and gun violence are becoming more and more common every year. At this stage of his life, moving is not an option. So, I am very pleased to know that he has access to a gun if something bad would ever happen to him.
 
I guess so, given that fire extinguishers can miss their target and kill an innocent bystander. Additionally, drive by fire extinguishing deaths have risen DRAMATICALLY in Chicago over the last few years, and then there are the poor souls killed by random chemicals coming down from the sky as irresponsible fire extinguisher owners shoot them into the air during New Years and 4th of July celebrations.

Blame the person misusing the device? Not the device itself? Unless it's picking itself up and firing itself?
 
Blame the person misusing the device? Not the device itself? Unless it's picking itself up and firing itself?

Two things:

1) My initial response was sarcasm. I did so because my response to his post was exactly what his post was to the thread...general and somewhat derailing. I don't cops because they've got guns. I call cops because they keep the peace. Most cops don't even have to use their guns. They're officers of the law that are supposed to serve and protect, that's why I call them. Not to whip their guns around.

2) And if we didn't have wide availability and saturation of guns in the first place then tragedies and crimes like this wouldn't happen as much as they do, unless I'm mistaken.
 
Memo to self: watch last night's BBC Panorama documentary on America's gun culture and how they went to a gun show in Texas and got a rifle without doing any paperwork or undergoing any checks.
 
I guess so, given that fire extinguishers can miss their target and kill an innocent bystander. Additionally, drive by fire extinguishing deaths have risen DRAMATICALLY in Chicago over the last few years, and then there are the poor souls killed by random chemicals coming down from the sky as irresponsible fire extinguisher owners shoot them into the air during New Years and 4th of July celebrations.

See, somehow you get the impression that these people using "fire extinguishers" that kill innocent people are people that are responsible gun owners, have a FOID card, passed a background check, and paid a fee. How you got that idea, I do not know. BTW I live in Chicago.
 
Memo to self: watch last night's BBC Panorama documentary on America's gun culture and how they went to a gun show in Texas and got a rifle without doing any paperwork or undergoing any checks.

I'm going to watch this too, tonight. Should be interesting, even if obviously biased. Will comment if the thread's still active tomorrow.
 
See, somehow you get the impression that these people using "fire extinguishers" that kill innocent people are people that are responsible gun owners, have a FOID card, passed a background check, and paid a fee. How you got that idea, I do not know. BTW I live in Chicago.

Read my above post.
 
Increased risk of dying by gun homicide in the home 1.9%.

Increased risk of dying by gun suicide in the home 31.1%. (vs. other methods of suicide)

Increased risk (for males) of committing suicide in the home 10.1%.

I'm not sure how informative the suicide numbers really are. Considering that they only measure suicides 'in the home,' if you own a gun and want to use it to kill yourself, you'll probably do so at home. If you don't own a gun and want to kill yourself, you're probably more likely to seek a method outside the home (jump in front of a bus or jump off a building).

Anyway, while their statistics support an increase for both, it is only marginal for an increased risk of dying by gun homicide when a gun is kept in the home. Considering that they probably count a meth house as a, "home," I'm not particularly persuaded.
Again missing the point. It doesn't reduce the chance of dying by gun homicide, i.e preventing an intruder from shooting you.
 
The USA is home of most paranoid people. A lot of people seem to have that "...but what IF" attitude which leads into said paranoia.
The amounts of "doomsday preppers" is insane and totally out of control in the U.S.
Hoarding dozens of high cap weapons and tons of food/water in a bunker just in case is just surreal and completely over the top.
Yes, there are also preppes in the rest of the world but their number is minimal compared to the US.

Why are there so many fearful people in the US? What causes the fearmongering?
Is it the constant bombardment of "scary" news by big News channels like FOX? Was it 9/11?
 
The USA is home of most paranoid people. A lot of people seem to have that "...but what IF" attitude which leads into said paranoia.
The amounts of "doomsday preppers" is insane and totally out of control in the U.S.
Hoarding dozens of high cap weapons and tons of food/water in a bunker just in case is just surreal and completely over the top.
Yes, there are also preppes in the rest of the world but their number is minimal compared to the US.

Why are there so many fearful people in the US? What causes the fearmongering?
Is it the constant bombardment of "scary" news by big News channels like FOX? Was it 9/11?

Have you ever lived through a natural disaster? The majority of Floridians have. Hoarding food,water,gas,ammo and guns seems like a good idea.
 
The USA is home of most paranoid people. A lot of people seem to have that "...but what IF" attitude which leads into said paranoia.
The amounts of "doomsday preppers" is insane and totally out of control in the U.S.
Hoarding dozens of high cap weapons and tons of food/water in a bunker just in case is just surreal and completely over the top.
Yes, there are also preppes in the rest of the world but their number is minimal compared to the US.

Why are there so many fearful people in the US? What causes the fearmongering?
Is it the constant bombardment of "scary" news by big News channels like FOX? Was it 9/11?


I had a coworker who was a big time prepper. He put all his money into gold and land in the mid 2000s. Now he is worth a fucking fortune, as gold is obviously way higher now, and they found gas on his land. Unbelievable luck, but a real nice guy.
 
Have you ever lived through a natural disaster? The majority of Floridians have. Hoarding food,water,gas,ammo and guns seems like a good idea.

I don't talk about natural disasters(It's completely normal to hoard stuff for hurricans etc) or particulary about Florida.
most doomsday preppers are seriously expecting some kind of civil war within U.S. borders or even china/russia invading.
 
Have you ever lived through a natural disaster? The majority of Floridians have. Hoarding food,water,gas,ammo and guns seems like a good idea.

Hoarding and preparing are two different things, and one of them is good. I have enough food in my house to last god knows how long and I usually have enough wood to keep a fire going for weeks, without a break. But when a hurricane strikes you don't need to have guns handy. Come on.
 
I had a coworker who was a big time prepper. He put all his money into gold and land in the mid 2000s. Now he is worth a fucking fortune, as gold is obviously way higher now, and they found gas on his land. Unbelievable luck, but a real nice guy.
The thing about gold is that if things do go bad, the government could make owning gold illegal. Individuals were only recently given access to gold again by Ford in 1974. There is no amendment for gold like with guns.
 
Hoarding and preparing are two different things, and one of them is good. I have enough food in my house to last god knows how long and I usually have enough wood to keep a fire going for weeks, without a break. But when a hurricane strikes you don't need to have guns handy. Come on.

I mostly agree with you. There are sometimes issues with looting if services are going to be out for awhile and you're likely to be far down response list unless you're drowning or your shit is on fire. Still, it doesn't mean that you need to have more ammunition than is transported with a USMC platoon to hold off two guys looking for an empty house with TVs.
 
Have you ever lived through a natural disaster? The majority of Floridians have. Hoarding food,water,gas,ammo and guns seems like a good idea.

And then the hurricanes hit LA or the Carolinas. Ive been in FL since Floyd and it still amazes me the people that actually enjoy and relish in the thought of preparing for hurricanes every damn time. Blowing wads on “this is it, this is the big one” and then the aftermath of news stations making flooding and some gas station loosing its sign to be a national disaster.

For sure you have events like Katrina that actually turn out to be disasters and sad but it wasnt a lack of guns or suppies that caused it. There is fair warning for hurricanes, and everytime the suggestion is to leave town. When its gets severe it even becomes mandatory. And when i watch the news and see the monster floods and deaths of people and those emergency people trying to save them i see a common thread everytime. Someone thinking they could stockpile and be prepared to take on anything putting themselves, family and emergency response people in danger instead of getting the hell out of the way. Call it arrogance, pride or for the thrill. I call it stupidity.
 
10 examples. Someone sites a study and you use just 10 anecdotal examples? That's not how you go about shaping laws.

Sadly . . . that is EXACTLY how many people go about shaping laws.

98% of the climate scientists say that human activities are warming the climate . . . Yeah, well it snowed last weekend so they are wrong!
 
10 examples. Someone sites a study and you use just 10 anecdotal examples? That's not how you go about shaping laws.

Ok, here's ultimately what I think: If a person wants to look at those studies and they make the decision that they don't want a gun in their home then I fully support that. If a person looks at the studies and decides that while there's a risk in ownership they are willing to accept that and go through the requisite actions to legally obtain a firearm then I fully support that as well.

The problem I have is people that insist they know what's best for me, my situation and my household. I'll never cosign onto that nonsense when it comes to me having the basic tools to defend my family and my home.

Our goal should be coming to an agreement about the changes we can make to the existing system to lower gun violence across the board. Not pie in the sky bullshit like saying no one should be able to keep a gun in their homes or every teacher should carry full auto grenade launchers.

That's how the laws should be shaped. More importantly laws should be shaped to actually deal with the problem at hand. But that's more complicated than "All guns are bad under all circumstances!" or "All guns are always good and everyone should be strapped at all times even when they're shitting!"
 
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