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[Alienfan]

That's wonderful. Not all of us are so privileged to sit on our high horse on the subject. But I'll make you a deal! Go get the guns from the KKK, Alt-Right-Supremacists, Gangs, Other Criminals, Racist Cops, Racists in General, Military on American soil.

Do that then come wag a finger in the face of minorities telling them they shouldn't be armed for any reason.

Im speaking to the general trend. There's overwhelming evidence showing the link between suicides and the accessibility of guns; now during a time when LGBT hotlines are working over time and the mental health of minorities is understandably suffering, maybe more guns (which I'm arguing do more harm than good, because these contrived action movie scenarios people see themselves getting into seem very unlikely) are not the best idea and is not a trend we should be cerebrating like some people in this thread are.

Maybe that's my privilege speaking like you said. I do live in a country that outright banned guns 20 years ago and immediately saw suicides and homicides decrease dramatically despite a rising population...

 

[Opto]

If you read the Atlantic article I posted you'd know that gun ownership results in lower rates of certain crime if criminals have to fear the chance the general populace had a gun. In America, robbers rarely if ever rob a house while people are at home because they don't want to risk that you are packing. By the same takeaway, if racists and bigots know more minorities have guns on them, they will think twice before they start something. So the solution may actually be more guns. They're not going anywhere and there's more guns in America than there are people now anyways. And in a place like California you are a sitting duck because concealed carry is much, much harder - an in many cases impossible - to obtain and defend yourself if need be. Anti-gun laws in America serve no purpose other than make things harder for the populace if something like this happens and there's so many guns in America it would be flat out moronic to think you could possibly get rid of them all at this point.

You really jumped from anti-gun to going heart eyes about everything to do with guns. Fine, give your money to a movement that will encourage 0 action to prevent the next mass shooting.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Im speaking to the general trend. There's overwhelming evidence showing the link between suicides and the accessibility of guns; now during a time when LGBT hotlines are working over time and the mental health of minorities is understandably suffering, maybe more guns (which I'm arguing do more harm than good, because these contrived action movie scenarios people see themselves getting into seem very unlikely) are not the best idea and is not a trend we should be cerebrating like some people in this thread are.

Maybe that's my privilege speaking like you said. I do live in a country that outright banned guns 20 years ago and immediately saw suicides and homicides decrease dramatically despite a rising population...

So you don't live in America nor face the reality minorities face here? Gotcha. You're not banning guns in America. So what should we do besides statistics and cross our fingers that we won't be the victims of violence racial or otherwise? I for one am not willing to die on the altar of your self-righteousness.

I apologize for that conflation, but you brought up the police bombing in philadelphia. A gun won't save anyone from militarized police.

But you won't change my mind about how a wave of bulk purchase of firearms isn't going to directly fund more Trumps and neo-nazis. The NRA is way more white radical than back in the 60s.

If you could buy a gun without dropping the cash into the neo-nazi slushfund, I'd gladly pitch in to a fund to arm people of color, even despite the increased dangers you exposure yourself to that result from gun ownership.

I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm saying stop wagging a finger in Black peoples faces and telling them what you know to be best for them when you don't even know jack, piss, nor shit about the history of what we've had to face in this country and continue to face in this country.

If your argument is we shouldn't fund any organization with ties to White Supremacy well that would prevent us from spending money in 99.9% of corporations in America for damn near everything. Cause it all fund global White Supremacy at some point. So that rings hollow to me.

 

[Alienfan]

So you don't live in America nor face the reality minorities face here? Gotcha. You're not banning guns in America. So what should we do besides statistics and cross our fingers that we won't be the victims of violence racial or otherwise? I for one am not willing to die on the altar of your self-righteousness.

What's this reality in which guns are actually going to protect people and not just contribute to even more violence?

 

[Mammoth Jones]

What's this reality in which guns are actually going to protect you?

I can only speak for myself. The one in which a home invader fell back when my father approached a back door with a shotgun.

The one where an off duty cop pulled a gun on some crazy fucker that pulled a gun on my friends and myself and the crazy dude got arrested.

That one. Stop being condescending and assuming you know everyone's reality. Get out your bubble. Go re-read this before you come at me with this bullshit again.

The flaw in your argument is that self defense is "contributing to more violence" (and therefore always wrong).

 

[Alienfan]

The one in which a home invader fell back when my father approached a back door with a shotgun.

The one where an off duty cop pulled a gun on some crazy fucker that pulled a gun on my friends and myself and the crazy dude got arrested.

That one. Stop being condescending and assuming you know everyone's reality. Get out your bubble.

How about my reality where my best friend ended their life with a gun. Anecdotal gets you no where. Looking at statistics, studies and the results that counties with strict gun laws saw is not being in a bubble, it's the exact opposite. Guns are awful

 

[Mammoth Jones]

How about my reality where my best friend ended their life with a gun. Anecdotal gets you no where. Looking at statistics, studies and the results that counties with strict gun laws saw is not being in a bubble, it's the exact opposite.

My condolences. Now tell me what your friends suicide has to do with me as a Black man to decide if I want to own a gun or not given the history of violence my people have faced in this country...

Please get this straight: I do not need you to be my benevolent benefactor. I don't need your approval. The White man gets to own guns nearly carte blanche, and I'm going to own mine.

Until you do something about the former, don't chastise me about the latter. I've asked repeatedly for the statistics of guns stored safely vs just being left out and no one has bothered to break that stat down. Just "statistics say". I know they do. Thankfully I'm an adult and can decide for myself if I want to own a gun or not.

It's not worth the risk for you. That's wonderful. You don't have to live with the very real threat of racial violence. Must be nice.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Im speaking to the general trend. There's overwhelming evidence showing the link between suicides and the accessibility of guns; now during a time when LGBT hotlines are working over time and the mental health of minorities is understandably suffering, maybe more guns (which I'm arguing do more harm than good, because these contrived action movie scenarios people see themselves getting into seem very unlikely) are not the best idea and is not a trend we should be cerebrating like some people in this thread are.

Maybe that's my privilege speaking like you said. I do live in a country that outright banned guns 20 years ago and immediately saw suicides and homicides decrease dramatically despite a rising population...

Being LGBT doesn't mean you shouldn't have a gun. I suggested all LGBT people who are able (I.e.not suicidal) to own a gun. You mention LGBT hotlines because of the very real risk that we are in more increased danger with a gun without acknowledging the fact that we are still in very real danger even without a gun. Essentially, your solution is blanket and extreme. Not everyone should have a gun, but those who feel they need probably might be right.

Using LGBT people as evidence against gun ownership when people now feel they have the war against "fags" is not going to go over well with me.

 

[Laiza]

Look, I am East Asian and trans in America, but you won't find me fielding a firearm any time soon (re: ever). I don't need them and I will forever point out the statistics the people love to willfully ignore as long as people continue to fight for something that hurts them far, far more than it helps them.

Claiming that living in the fear of harassment and potential deadly assault somehow makes owning a gun any more of a rational decision than it would be if you didn't live in the US is one of the most amazingly specious arguments I've ever read. If anything, that's further argument for why you should be taking a step back and seriously examining this, because a fearful mind is NOT a rational mind.

I have very real reason to be afraid of someone shooting me just because my gender identity is so alien to them, but my methods of self-defense will never include an equal and opposite reaction when I have much better, non-lethal methods to do so that won't fuck me up and traumatize me for life.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

You really jumped from anti-gun to going heart eyes about everything to do with guns. Fine, give your money to a movement that will encourage 0 action to prevent the next mass shooting.

I moved from an anti-gun position because in light of actual evidence as articulated by people more knowledgeable about the subject than me. I can admit I'm wrong in light of new evidence. Instead you should lament that someone as anti gun as me are now willing to admit they were wrong and reconsider their options.

Look, I am East Asian and trans in America, but you won't find me fielding a firearm any time soon (re: ever). I don't need them and I will forever point out the statistics the people love to willfully ignore as long as people continue to fight for something that hurts them far, far more than it helps them.

Claiming that living in the fear of harassment and potential deadly assault somehow makes owning a gun any more of a rational decision than it would be if you didn't live in the US is one of the most amazingly specious arguments I've ever read. If anything, that's further argument for why you should be taking a step back and seriously examining this, because a fearful mind is NOT a rational mind.

I have very real reason to be afraid of someone shooting me just because my gender identity is so alien to them, but my methods of self-defense will never include an equal and opposite reaction when I have much better, non-lethal methods to do so that won't fuck me up and traumatize me for life.

That's nice that you're Asian and trans and don't find it necessary to own a gun. Those of who do, will.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Look, I am East Asian and trans in America, but you won't find me fielding a firearm any time soon (re: ever). I don't need them and I will forever point out the statistics the people love to willfully ignore as long as people continue to fight for something that hurts them far, far more than it helps them.

Claiming that living in the fear of harassment and potential deadly assault somehow makes owning a gun any more of a rational decision than it would be if you didn't live in the US is one of the most amazingly specious arguments I've ever read. If anything, that's further argument for why you should be taking a step back and seriously examining this, because a fearful mind is NOT a rational mind.

I have very real reason to be afraid of someone shooting me just because my gender identity is so alien to them, but my methods of self-defense will never include an equal and opposite reaction when I have much better, non-lethal methods to do so that won't fuck me up and traumatize me for life.

You've analyzed your situation and made a choice you believe to be in your best interest. I can't and won't judge your for it. Please allow the same for me.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

I really don't get the arguments here. Like, yes, the more guns there are, generally speaking the more violence and gun related tragedies occur. I don't think anyone is arguing that. Yes American gun culture is crazy. Yes, this obsession that owning a gun is a god given right is fucking stupid.

But that's the law of the land and they are never going to get rid of it. So while that is the reality why chastise people who want to buy it to feel safe when literally 1 in every 3 people has one? If people never felt like they needed a gun until America elected a racist then maybe people should direct their displeasure towards the cause and not the effect.

And yes I think guns suck and literally American's shitty obsession with weapons affects me since 1/3rd of all guns confiscated by police in Toronto are illegally smuggled from the states. Their gun culture literally is the worst. But like, that is their country and you can't just argue with stats something written into their constitution that they will never ever change. For them owning a gun is a right. If you want them to own less guns then you need to persuade them that they don't need it in the first place. You aren't gonna do that by shouting stats while white supremacists are committing hate crimes and the president elect is literally a caricature racist.

 

[Alienfan]

My condolences. Now tell me what your friends suicide has to do with me as a Black man to decide if I want to own a gun or not given the history of violence my people have faced in this country...

Please get this straight: I do not need you to be my benevolent benefactor. I don't need your approval. The White man gets to own guns nearly carte blanche, and I'm going to own mine.

Until you do something about the former, don't chastise me about the latter. I've asked repeatedly for the statistics of guns stored safely vs just being left out and no one has bothered to break that stat down. Just "statistics say". I know they do. Thankfully I'm an adult and can decide for myself if I want to own a gun or not.

It's not worth the risk for you. That's wonderful. You don't have to live with the very real threat of racial violence. Must be nice.

The thing is I'm sure you as a probably intelligent guy know how to keep a gun safe and have taken into account the risks of owning and carrying a fire arm. But the reality is a lot of people don't. That's the issue. If everyone kept their guns safe, locked up and used them when only necessary I doubt there would be much of a debate to have.

I know I'm naïve to think a ban would ever happen and people are just trying to defend themselves given the terrible situation (even if odds are they don't need it). I just wish there were at least stricter laws, because more guns as a general trend isn't a good thing.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

The thing is I'm sure you as a probably intelligent guy know how to keep a gun safe and have taken into account the risks of owning and carrying a fire arm. But the reality is a lot of people don't. That's the issue. If everyone kept their guns safe, locked up and used them when only necessary I doubt there would be much of a debate to have.

I know I'm naïve to think a ban would ever happen and people are just trying to defend themselves given the terrible situation (even if odds are they don't need it). I just wish there were at least stricter laws, because more guns as a general trend isn't a good thing.

Here's the thing: The groups you are criticizing in this thread by and large do not oppose stricter gun laws.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

The thing is I'm sure you as a probably intelligent guy know how to keep a gun safe and have taken into account the risks of owning and carrying a fire arm. But the reality is a lot of people don't. That's the issue. If everyone kept their guns safe, locked up and used them when only necessary I doubt there would be much of a debate to have.

I know I'm naïve to think a ban would ever happen and people are just trying to defend themselves given the terrible situation (even if odds are they don't need it). I just wish there were at least stricter laws, because more guns as a general trend isn't a good thing.

You think the first time gun owner that has been critical of gun regulations and safety tgeir whole life is going to suddenly start leaving a loaded gun in the refrigerator or something? You say Mammoth is intelligent but please consideri most of us buying guns are just as intelligent. I'm going to be applying for conceal carry. Conceal carry requires training and safety classes. So the very people you're criticizing already agree with you there and that has never changed.

 

[hypernima]

If you want guns get em, if you don't, don't?

 

[Frozenprince]

I'd like to point out that these guns, again, didn't just magically appear in these peoples hands.

They were at stores, ready to be and planned to be sold because they wouldn't have them on hand as inventory otherwise.

So, this is just proliferation of a supply that's already extent.

So criticizing from a moralistic view of a gun ban is not only naïve, but it's utterly and entirely pointless and counter productive.

A gun ban is not happening, even if it does, guns are not going to all just go away because there are a SHITLOAD of guns in this country.

Lecturing people who are arming themselves as a countermeasure to those that would victimize them doing the same reeks of privilege and a misunderstanding of the nature of the conflicts and issues surrounding this issue at the most basic level. It's also quite rude and callous to dismiss all of us who own guns or plan to own guns as not wanting stricter regulation and control. One can want one and realize the other.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I would say that the average gaffer is smarter than the dumbasses who leave their loaded guns on top of the refrigerator. Which is why other gaffers saying that gaffers turned gaf gun owners will become a statistic is..sad.

The reality is that the 2nd amendment is a right to be excersized. The other reality is that, despite myself wanting guns to be a thing of the past, is thag the climate today is unfriendly to minorities.

 

[Alienfan]

Here's the thing: The groups you are criticizing in this thread by and large do not oppose stricter gun laws.

I'm not critising minorities, apologies if it comes across that way, I'm reading this as "more guns are being pruchased without strict laws in place". Im speaking more to the gun culture that tells people the best way to defend yourself is to buy a gun (I understand in certain areas that it is), but it's vastly exaggerated while the more dangerous effects of having a gun in your household are downplayed. A lot of people don't need a weapon, while others you've argued clearly do (well done, you genuinely convinced me with your informative post before ). I don't know, I guess I just find the general trend of more guns being purchased (for any reason) slightly terrifying when I have family in the US.

 

[Opto]

Here's the thing: The groups you are criticizing in this thread by and large do not oppose stricter gun laws.

How much you going to donate to offset you funding the NRA and gun lobbying.

 

[Frozenprince]

How much you going to donate to offset you funding the NRA and gun lobbying.

And this is why minorities never do anything like this. Or haven't in a long time.

We are shamed incessantly into falling in line with the mighty white liberal from their ivory tower preaching what we need to do and how we need to do it.

This is why the Dems lost. And this is why people who are disenfranchised are now finally just saying fuck it and taking things into their own and their communities hands.

 

[Opto]

And this is why minorities never do anything like this. Or haven't in a long time.

We are shamed incessantly into falling in line with the mighty white liberal from their ivory tower preaching what we need to do and how we need to do it.

This is why the Dems lost. And this is why people who are disenfranchised are now finally just saying fuck it and taking things into their own and their communities hands.

Oh sorry I'm asking someone to back up their convictions on gun control when they're gonna pour money into exactly the opposite of that.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Anecdotal evidence but my friends are strapping up. Black women getting armed, black men getting armed, Muslims, LGBT. LGBT has had the biggest increase in gun ownership among people I know.

If democrats don't soften their stance on guns and keep peddling this purity ideology on guns going forward you will continue to lose. Considering the positions of people like Bernie, there's a clear split and the grassroots people aren't the ones who aren't anti-gun. Just warning you right now that the attitudes presented in this thread will endanger the Democratic Party politically and increase the wedge between establishment and grassroots.

 

[Frozenprince]

Oh sorry I'm asking someone to back up their convictions on gun control when they're gonna pour money into exactly the opposite of that.

Are any of us donating a dime to the NRA? Have any of us said we plan to donate a dime to the NRA?

Then your pre-supposed narrative is utterly meaningless and dismissive.

Buying a fucking gun doesn;t suddenly pip a notification on the NRA's headquarters mighty GUNDAR so that they can cackle and do the menacing finger pyramid of evil contemplation.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

Gun owners are a huge bloc in the US and honestly the Dems shouldn't be pissing them off, because they can and will vote accordingly. See-California gun laws.

 

[Alienfan]

.

If democrats don't soften their stance on guns and keep peddling this purity ideology on guns going forward you will continue to lose.

Wasn't Hillary just arguing for background checks and wasn't for completely abolishing guns? I remember thinking it seemed like a pretty reasonable stance

 

[Opto]

Anecdotal evidence but my friends are strapping up. Black women getting armed, black men getting armed, Muslims, LGBT. LGBT has had the biggest increase in gun ownership among people I know.

If democrats don't soften their stance on guns and keep peddling this purity ideology on guns going forward you will continue to lose.

Soften? Background checks, waiting periods, magazine limits, harsh punishments for illegal possession are too hardline?

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Wasn't Hillary just arguing for background checks and wasn't for completely abolishing guns? I remember thinking it seemed like a pretty reasonable stance

Soften? Background checks, waiting periods, magazine limits, harsh punishments for illegal possession are too hardline?

You are arguing for more than background checks in this very thread! You say you're for these things but you're in a thread arguing against people who have deemed it necessary to own a gun! Stop being intellectually dishonest, you can't question why anyone would want a gun while telling people you're for regulation.

 

[Alienfan]

You are arguing for more than background checks in this very thread!

I mean yeah an outright ban would be ideal. But people like their guns so background checks are probably the best we'll get for now. That's what I meant by "reasonable", there isn't much to argue about stricter checks.

Regardless, a ban is not what the democrats have been putting forward. I don't understand why you think they need to soften their messaging?

 

[Opto]

Are any of us donating a dime to the NRA? Have any of us said we plan to donate a dime to the NRA?

Then your pre-supposed narrative is utterly meaningless and dismissive.

Buying a fucking gun doesn;t suddenly pip a notification on the NRA's headquarters mighty GUNDAR so that they can cackle and do the menacing finger pyramid of evil contemplation.

...buying a gun directly leads to gun lobbyist coffers. What, you think S&W and Glock don't invest in their funds in making sure their distribution is as wide and unimpeded as possible?

 

[Timedog]

Guns are incredibly selfish. There's no better way to say "I don't care about the well-being of society". Its funny how every single gun owner who's ever had an argument about guns claims they're one of the "responsible ones".

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

I mean yeah an outright ban would be ideal for everyone, no? But people like their guns so background checks are probably the best we'll get for now. That's what I meant by "reasonable", there isn't much to argue about stricter checks.

Regardless, that's not what the democrats have been putting forward. I don't understand why you think they need to soften their messaging?

Read the edit. Your stance in this thread has NOT been pro-regulation!

 

[Alienfan]

Read the edit. Your stance in this thread has NOT been pro-regulation!

Yeah you're right, my stance hasn't. I think the US should follow almost every other western country and ban them.

But I'm also not the democrats. Who you're saying should "soften" their message to get more votes, why?

 

[Opto]

You are arguing for more than background checks in this very thread! You say you're for these things but you're in a thread arguing against people who have deemed it necessary to own a gun! Stop being intellectually dishonest, you can't question why anyone would want a gun while telling people you're for regulation.

I can be personally opposed to all guns while also having the mindset that it's impossible politically. But you can't deny buying a gun right now contributes to the opposition of even the most moderate of gun safety legislation. Sure, I doubt you'll use it with malice(but the again, I don't fucking know you), but you'll just be another silent gun owner in the face of preventable gun deaths. Or if not, you'll be fighting against the very people you yourself funded. Already you're drinking the NRA's bullshit.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Yeah you're right, my stance hasn't. I think the US should follow almost every other western country and ban them.

But I'm also not the democrats. Who you're saying should "soften" their message to get more votes, why?

You were already told why. Democrats might lose that civil war they're brewing with progressives if they don't soften their hard stances on guns.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

How much you going to donate to offset you funding the NRA and gun lobbying.

This is your answer:

And this is why minorities never do anything like this. Or haven't in a long time.

We are shamed incessantly into falling in line with the mighty white liberal from their ivory tower preaching what we need to do and how we need to do it.

This is why the Dems lost. And this is why people who are disenfranchised are now finally just saying fuck it and taking things into their own and their communities hands.

Oh sorry I'm asking someone to back up their convictions on gun control when they're gonna pour money into exactly the opposite of that.

Just to point out..once again, it's that arrogance and condescension... For you to think I "owe" you an explanation? I live in NY. We already have tight gun control laws here. The fuck you expect me to do?

I purchased my firearms legally and store them safely. That's the extent of my social contract with you or anyone else.

Stop making the thread about your sensibilities. It's not always about you. Gun stores are seeing an uptick in minority and Black customers. There's a reason for that. We need to figure out what's making people apprehensive (not hard) and actually do something about it (hard).

But this requires more work than finger-wagging.

 

[Opto]

This is why the Dems lost. And this is why people who are disenfranchised are now finally just saying fuck it and taking things into their own and their communities hands.

Also this is so fucking hilarious to me. No, it wasn't the neo-nazis (the same one's you're buying protection against) and apathetic white people that made the dems lose. But i'll pass that along at the next meeting that we need looser gun laws and less socially progressive attitudes.

 

[Alienfan]

You were already told why. Democrats might lose that civil war they're brewing with progressives if they don't soften their hard stances on guns.

What's to soften though? That's my question

 

[Opto]

This is your answer:

So that's a no. Fine, mate. Guess I'll see you in the next mass shooting thread with you claiming the children should have had guns

 

[Mammoth Jones]

So that's a no. Fine, mate. Guess I'll see you in the next mass shooting thread with you claiming the children should have had guns

I was wondering how long it'd take to get to some form of "You approve of kids being shot in mass shootings". Congrats. Grow up.

You get a response then you pout and bitch because it's not what you demand to hear. With "allies" like this who the fuck needs enemies....

What's to soften though? That's my question

Not attacking/mocking people that choose to purchase a firearm legally would be a great start.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

What's to soften though? That's my question

Lots of people in that aisle equate gun regulation with outright gun banning.

After a shooting where armed guards could have been placed, liberals argue that armed guards wouldn't have helped matters because guns are inherently evil!

Many liberals want gun regulation so tight and gun banning that when they are put into a situation where they might need a gun for defense there is not one around. See the recent France shootings.

Even when presented with evidence as to why people might want or need a gun, they don't consider it and criticize anyone who wants to buy one no matter the reason.

Going forward, such stances will only hurt liberals.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Lots of people in that aisle equate gun regulation with outright gun banning.

After a shooting where armed guards could have been placed, liberals argue that armed guards wouldn't have helped matters because guns are inherently evil!

Many liberals want gun regulation so tight and gun banning that when they are put into a situation where they might need a gun for defense there is not one around. See the recent France shootings.

Even when presented with evidence as to why people might want or need a gun, they don't consider it and criticize anyone who wants to buy one no matter the reason.

Going forward, such stances will only hurt liberals.

Fair points but this isn't about Liberals and I resent some trying to make it about them and their sensibilities. Blacks and minorities and clearing observing the increase in hate crimes against them. Now I know my history so it doesn't take much more than that to convince me to be armed in my home.

How this is now about Liberals being bothered by that is beyond me. Doubly so when they ignore/dismiss the history behind the decision.

 

[dream]

I think Opto's point is that the rationale for taking up arms as left-leaning minorities is almost identical to the rationale espoused by traditional gun loyalists: "we are afraid, we have identified threats, and we need protection."

When FrozenPrince says

And this is why people who are disenfranchised are now finally just saying fuck it and taking things into their own and their communities hands.

we can easily hear echoes of NRA supporters in that.

 

[Frozenprince]

Fair points but this isn't about Liberals and I resent some trying to make it about them and their sensibilities. Blacks and minorities and clearing observing the increase in hate crimes against them. Now I know my history so it doesn't take much more than that to convince me to be armed in my home.

How this is now about Liberals being bothered by that is beyond me. Doubly so when they ignore/dismiss the history behind the decision.

We all know why.

Special snowflakes and all that.

Yeah, the right mobilized bigots and morons and intolerant fuckfaces and they won, so that empowered them.

But the Dems ultimately lost because they didn't mobilize enough people. In no small part was that due to their complete and utter inability to talk to people as anything other than "we're the party that doesn't hate you so get in line".

This thread has about run it's course.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Fair points but this isn't about Liberals and I resent some trying to make it about them and their sensibilities. Blacks and minorities and clearing observing the increase in hate crimes against them. Now I know my history so it doesn't take much more than that to convince me to be armed in my home.

How this is now about Liberals being bothered by that is beyond me. Doubly so when they ignore/dismiss the history behind the decision.

It's just that it's liberals who don't want us to have guns in this thread even if it's a justified reason. I am not a liberal tho, so.

 

[Frozenprince]

I think Opto's point is that the rationale for taking up arms as left-leaning minorities is almost identical to the rationale espoused by traditional gun loyalists: "we are afraid, we have identified threats, and we need protection."

When FrozenPrince says



we can easily hear echoes of NRA supporters in that.

The very clear difference is that the crazy fuckwits who arm themselves to the 9's an form militias aren't basing their fears on reality. The federal government is not coming to take anything away from them, the federal government could give a shit less about them arming themselves.

Meanwhile, we've had APC's loaded with heavily armed police forces rolling through downtown metro areas breaking fucking HOUSES down because there might be a crack dealer with a shotgun inside. People have been getting lynched and murdered for the color of their skin or the company they keep in their bed for damn near 150 years now.

Do you see the difference?

 

[The Kree]

Seems fairly ridiculous to chastise American minorities for wanting to arm themselves in the middle of a surge of white nationalist sentiment accompanied by an uptick in hate crimes as the GOP prepares to take all three branches of government while law enforcement goes largely unpunished for disproportionately targeting them for abuse and harassment.

 

[dream]

The very clear difference is that the crazy fuckwits who arm themselves to the 9's an form militias aren't basing their fears on reality. The federal government is not coming to take anything away from them, the federal government could give a shit less about them arming themselves.

Meanwhile, we've had APC's loaded with heavily armed police forces rolling through downtown metro areas breaking fucking HOUSES down because there might be a crack dealer with a shotgun inside. People have been getting lynched and murdered for the color of their skin or the company they keep in their bed for damn near 150 years now.

Do you see the difference?

I think it's two sides of the same coin. Whatever it is they are afraid of may be illusory to you, but it's very real to them, and they have the confirmation bias to prove it.

 

[Frozenprince]

I think it's two sides of the same coin. Whatever it is they are afraid of may be illusory to you, but it's very real to them, and they have the confirmation bias to prove it.

Then there is absolutely nothing more to discuss with you about this issue.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

I think Opto's point is that the rationale for taking up arms as left-leaning minorities is almost identical to the rationale espoused by traditional gun loyalists: "we are afraid, we have identified threats, and we need protection."

When FrozenPrince says



we can easily hear echoes of NRA supporters in that.

Seems to me this is about "sides".

You have completely disregarded the NRA because they are not on your side.

Now, I'm not going to give NRA props but maybe, just maybe, they have SOME valid points? But no, you disagree with the NRA and thus deem them as inherently wrong.

So when people who you deem as allies decide to take up arms, the only reason it bothers you is because it reminds you of some NRA argument as if the NRA and gun owners at large are wrong about EVERYTHING.

You are not looking at the reasoning behind his words. You just want to connect the dots because you view the NRA as the enemy. Such extreme points without taking the consideration of why people feel a certain way is very endemic of liberal smug and quite frankly I'm kind of tired of it.