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[Cindi Mayweather]

Jonm, I'm sorry to say this but you sound just as much as an extremist on this topic to me as people who are scared the government is going to take all of our guns put it on one big pyre. You have turned each and every attempt and understanding for wanting to own a gun for self preservation and it borders from ideological to outright naive.

At any other point before November 8, I would have agreed with you. But desperate times call for desperate measures.

 

[Messofanego]

I think the argument is not to disregard safety but is this really improving safety if adapted personally and on a broad scale?

The increased risk factors associated with personal and broad gun ownership are undeniable.

The increase in hate crimes are as well.

But is the elevation of risk from hate crime enough to offset the elevated risk of gun ownership personally and from the consequences of community escalation of gun ownership and carrying?

That is where the arguments seem to be taking place.

I'll quote Mammoth Jones' post on this. Basically, bigots first drop their guns, the minorities will.

I thank you for your service. But don't castigate me for the way in which I chose to protect myself, my wife, and my child given

Second, you act like 60 years is so long ago. It's a blink in the eye of history. There's always this notion that "It can't happen again" which history has proven wrong so many fucking times I'm honestly shocked people still fall for it.....

I have said it time and time again but maybe given the situation someone will actually read it and get what I'm saying this time: I will gladly give up my guns with a smile and watch they get melted when you take guns away from the White supremacist, the criminal, the racist police, the military on US soil, and all the other people that would do me and mine harm. Until then? Nope.

I will store my stuff safely but don't wag a finger in my face.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Honestly, if you aren't in this situation, are white/straight/cis, are in another country, I don't want to read a lick about what you say if it's some wack fucking judgement. You think being European makes you special? You expect to just sit here and take this and be a sitting duck in the wake of rising hate crime and pro-white sentiment in my nations capitol? You can fuck right off with that mess. I don't want to kill anyone but if I need to protect myself in a practical manner, then so be it. I will not be a sitting duck. I will survive. And surviving means buying a pistol, getting training, and learning how to stop a threat if need be.

Read this thread before you dare judge us and applying a "but gaf judged white people for buying guns in droves after certain events" makes you look like an utter fool with your horrific false equivalences. Yet somehow us American's are the ones lacking critical thinking.

I think your critique falls on blind eyes. Not only is it unrealistic, it's ultimately insulting. I fully plan on arming myself and telling each and every person of color and LGBT person I know to personally strap up. If that bothers your sensibilities, time to find a new forum because this here is the new normal until our very LEGAL right to get armed is stripped away.

Europeans aren't special and they'll get their own rude awakening when Marine Le Pen wins in France.

 

[Finalizer]

Force them to abandon guns through maximum uncomfort

https://a.pomf.cat/pfopmb.webm

they'll come to regret embracing the alt-right

 

[Jonm1010]

I'll quote Mammoth Jones' post on this. Basically, bigots first drop their guns, the minorities will.

Gun violence is a problem that extends beyond just white on black crime.

I don't think any reasonable person suggesting gun control, or cautioning against promoting escalation, is trying to argue against the personal safety of minorities, but points like this seem to try and frame opponents to the common think in this thread in such a way. And it poisons conversations imo.

As Mammoth says, it is for personal safety and self-defense. What others are cautioning is that evidence tells us that is merely a false sense of security.

Does the uptick in hate crimes occurring add a significant enough elevated risk to ones personal safety to override what the current evidence tells us about how personal and community gun ownership heightens numerous other risk factors? That is up for the person to decide. I just hope they take that self-reflection process seriously.

But if they decide yes, I would just hope they do all the appropriate things to reduce certain risks and be aware that reality doesn't play out like the action movie in your head. Robbers typically try and get the jump on someone that is unsuspecting, burglars aren't necessarily going to break in while you are right next to your gun safe and reaching for a gun in any situation might mean they will just shoot or attack first. Someone posted that tragic murder of a musician in San Francisco, but reading the text it doesn't seem like a gun would of prevented that. There are real limitations to what a gun can help defend you with. Like I was just saying, if you don't have the jump on someone or the confrontation isn't sequenced just right, or like happened in that tragedy, the victim was jumped unsuspecting by three men where at least some had guns, who beat, robbed and then shot him.

 

[Henkka]

Sam Harris should stick to atheism arguments.

He frames civil society like it's some fucking Mad Max caricature and uses extreme hypotheticals to justify his choices. Everyone armed just means deadlier encounters and elevating risk for all the other issues surrounding guns: accident, suicide, assault. It's the paradox of thrift of gun ownership.

It has happened, but it is a lot harder to mass kill in a school or a club with a knife.

By all means get a gun if you determine your personal situation, when reasoning through all the costs and benefits, makes you fill you need it, but this is some silly shit lol.

I don't think he says anywhere that everyone should be armed. He addresses sort of what you're saying in the podcast, where he reads the article and responds to common criticisms.

Anyway, his article persuaded me to think that a total gun ban would be a bad idea. Like if you consider a case of a woman living alone in a neighbourhood with high crime. Without a gun, that woman can't do shit about her stuff being stolen and possibly being raped by home invaders, they would probably be that much more physically stronger. So you just have to rationally assess whether or not buying a gun is a good idea in your specific situation.

But as for the premise of this thread, I'm a little worried... If people are buying guns on impulse because they read a story about rising hate crimes, it's possible they're not undergoing the necessary training and safety procedures. I'd also wait until this dies down a little, so we get some actual statistics about the hate crimes. In the case of Brexit, I think there was a spike that went down to normal levels afterwards. If that's the case also in the US, I'd ask myself if it's wise to permanently increase the likelihood of someone getting shot in my household to protect myself from the relatively low likelihood of a violent Trump supporter assaulting me.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

Europeans aren't special and they'll get their own rude awakening when Marine Le Pen wins in France.

Bookmarked.

There's little chance it happens and a sizable part of the population (myself included) will do anything to prevent that.

 

[Jonm1010]

I think gun ownership as a whole is entirely stupid especially in the fashion the US adopts it. But that's the reality of their country so to look at this as a bunch of hypotheticals and facts doesn't serve any purpose. These people have decided to start owning guns directly in response to a specific event.

You can't come out here and be like "hey with all the other major issues with owning guns you should not do that" while the white supremacists and the entirely racist president are just waiting to shit on your way of life. Do you know how condescending and tone death that is?

There is no actual argument to be had. People who had no desire to own a ggun now feel like they need it because of the election. They aren't buying it based on stats, they are buying based on feelings. And the 1/3rd of Americans that own guns already bought them based on that stupid reasoning too. Direct your criticism towards them.

And this sums it up. Of course there is no argument to be had because people in this thread think their narrative is perfectly infallible and are closing their minds to points others are trying to make in cautioning this strategy. Framing disagreement on strategy with apathy for minorities. Which at least in my case, and from what I have read from others, is not what people are trying to do.

Jonm, I'm sorry to say this but you sound just as much as an extremist on this topic to me as people who are scared the government is going to take all of our guns put it on one big pyre. You have turned each and every attempt and understanding for wanting to own a gun for self preservation and it borders from ideological to outright naive.

At any other point before November 8, I would have agreed with you. But desperate times call for desperate measures.

How is suggesting reasoned caution and outlining what the evidence tells us being extreme?

A gun purchase and beyond that, promoting others to do likewise should be a pretty weighty decision IMO. Offering up a broader picture of the risks and limitations as I understand them seems like a personally reasonable thing to do in a thread such as this.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Bookmarked.

There's little chance it happens and a sizable part of the population (myself included) will do anything to prevent that.

That's what they said about Trump and Brexit. The French left is completely in tatters and the French right has no one remotely charismatic that the people would want instead of Le Pen.

 

[Jonm1010]

I don't think he says anywhere that everyone should be armed. He addresses sort of what you're saying in the podcast, where he reads the article and responds to common criticisms.

Anyway, his article persuaded me to think that a total gun ban would be a bad idea. Like if you consider a case of a woman living alone in a neighbourhood with high crime. Without a gun, that woman can't do shit about her stuff being stolen and possibly being raped by home invaders, they would probably be that much more physically stronger. So you just have to rationally assess whether or not buying a gun is a good idea in your specific situation.

But as for the premise of this thread, I'm a little worried... If people are buying guns on impulse because they read a story about rising hate crimes, it's possible they're not undergoing the necessary training and safety procedures. I'd also wait until this dies down a little, so we get some actual statistics about the hate crimes. In the case of Brexit, I think there was a spike that went down to normal levels afterwards. If that's the case also in the US, I'd ask myself if it's wise to permanently increase the likelihood of someone getting shot in my household to protect myself from the relatively low likelihood of a violent Trump supporter assaulting me.

I mean alternative forms of self defense do exist. Overall I think we are on the same page of thinking on a number of things.

But I should say from my perspective, I am not one of those people that thinks all guns should be banned. Just in an ideal scenario, heavily regulated, monitored and restricted. And in absence of that ideal, I will emphasis caution, safety and try and inform people about things with guns and gun ownership they may not of thought about but probably should. Things I wish I knew when I bought my guns years ago but have since gotten rid of them.

I think when you talk about that high crime area, guns are often, as the evidence shows, a contributing factor. A heightening factor. It goes back to a point I made earlier about the paradox of thrift of guns. Everyone feels unsafe so everyone arms up. Now everyone is even less safe.

I don't like Harris's argument because it relies on best case hypotheticals and sort of cherry picks data. I actually posted a few links a few pages back that would work counter to some of his arguments like suburban gun ownership risk factors and such. I think there is some value in his statistical argument there, but I think it misses the mark on the broader picture but as does other studies, it highlights that there are lurking variables that are also contributors to gun violence.

 

[Ac30]

Bookmarked.

There's little chance it happens and a sizable part of the population (myself included) will do anything to prevent that.

Will the left show up if Fillon is on the ticket, though? Le Pen has pandered to them, or so I've heard. Basically following the Trump gravy train. Her going through with Frexit is laughable though after the Brexit fiasco - no-one wants another Brexit.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

And this sums it up. Of course there is no argument to be had because people in this thread think their narrative is perfectly infallible and are closing their minds to points others are trying to make in cautioning this strategy. Framing disagreement on strategy with apathy for minorities. Which at least in my case, and from what I have read from others, is not what people are trying to do.

Do I think "well trump won, better arm myself" is an actual valid strategy towards protection? Naw not really. It's mostly just paranoid and emotionally reactive. Does that mean that I don't understand it and really empathize with the feeling of helplessness? No. I think you haven't framed your argument as someone who actually understands the fear and uncertainty these people feel.

Until you express that you aren't winning anybody over with "cautioning". Sorry man but you have to actually show you feel for people before they will actually care about whatever criticism you are giving. Honestly, your tone sounds more along the lines of "stupid minorities, this is not the way" than "man it sucks that people feel like this and have been pushed to it. But here are some reasons why you should still be hopeful and not go down this route"

Being honest here.

 

[KKRT00]

This thread is scary, like really scary...

 

[Jonm1010]

Do I think "well trump won, better arm myself" is an actual valid strategy towards protection? Naw not really. It's mostly just paranoid and emotionally reactive. Does that mean that I don't understand it and really empathize with the feeling of helplessness? No. I think you haven't framed your argument as someone who actually understands the fear and uncertainty these people feel.

Until you express that you aren't winning anybody over with "cautioning". Sorry man but you have to actually show you feel for people before they will actually care about whatever criticism you are giving. Honestly, your tone sounds more along the lines of "stupid minorities, this is not the way" than "man it sucks that people feel like this and have been pushed to it. But here are some reasons why you should still be hopeful and not go down this route"

Being honest here.

I think only once I got a bit testy and that was when it felt like a poster was taking shots at any dissenting opinion - like mine - as being ignorant. But that will do it to the best of us.

I think I have said multiple times I understand the fear and anxiety, that I am not going to make a choice like this for someone and that the rise in hate crimes is real and deserving of concern. If you doubt my sentiment I can't really help you there. If you want to get into a fight over who has shown they empathize the most, I have no real interest. If you want to continue to believe, that because I have different views and opinions on aspects of this discussion, that I lack sympathy, so be it.

 

[Vicetrailia]

This is exactly when statistics like that are useful.

If the rationale is safety and self defense, looking at what the data says are your real risk factors, including the increased risk just brought on by gun ownership seems pretty pertinent.

Otherwise you are just making decisions on emotion and unsubstantiated thought experiments.

Yes emotion and cause and effect. Racists make minorities feel unsafe through national rhetoric and the sudden trend of hate crime escalation, minorities seek to defend themselves utilizing various methods.

You should be able to understand that.

 

[Laiza]

I don't think he says anywhere that everyone should be armed. He addresses sort of what you're saying in the podcast, where he reads the article and responds to common criticisms.

Anyway, his article persuaded me to think that a total gun ban would be a bad idea. Like if you consider a case of a woman living alone in a neighbourhood with high crime. Without a gun, that woman can't do shit about her stuff being stolen and possibly being raped by home invaders, they would probably be that much more physically stronger. So you just have to rationally assess whether or not buying a gun is a good idea in your specific situation.

WOW, REALLY?

Pepper spray, folks. Tasers. Seriously, we don't need guns for this shit, come on!

I can't believe what I'm reading here. All these ridiculous defenses that are just complete nonsense. Completely disregarding the availability of self-defense options for smaller people that don't involve lethally destroying people's internal organs. Please stop with this nonsense.

This thread is scary, like really scary...

You said it.

 

[Jonm1010]

Yes emotion and cause and effect. Racists make minorities feel unsafe through national rhetoric and the sudden trend of hate crime escalation, minorities seek to defend themselves utilizing various methods.

Understand that and you're golden.

Understand that I understand that is the rationale, and I understand I am not telling anyone what they should do, and I understand the reasons driving people to do it. But also understand that I am cautioning and arguing that that rationale is not that simple and straightforward. That is where posts like that come from. That if you are promoting this strategy, thinking about arming up yourself, these are things to keep in mind and why I have come to different conclusions for now. "For now" being a key phrase.

 

[Yoshi]

Who asked you?

I didn't know there was an exclusive list of people who may proclaim their opinion on this topic, so please enlighten me, who is allowed to speak on that matter.

America is a country where there are tons and tons of guns. If 1/3 of the population owns guns, I see no actual argument as to why other citizens shouldn't. Yeah ideally, you have a society with strict gun control and they are tools of privilege for specific purposes but America isn't that place and pretending it is is just naive.

I live in Canada, it's nice to not worry about some dude with a gun going ape shit or even just guns being a part of regular life. But America just elected a clear racist ass motherfucker as president and all the racists are coming out of the wood works. If minorities who never felt the need to own a gun are now moving towards that then the failure is on the state and it's citizens for not creating an environment of safety for it's oppressed people, it's not on fucking minorities to once again disregard their own feeling of safety for the majority.

You know how fucking stupid that is?

It is horrible if minorities cannot feel safe and this should and must be addressed. I just think that an increase in gun ownership does not factually increase, but decreases the security of minorities instead. The two main reasons for that being that drawing a weapon may easily escalate the level of violence in a conflict (even when it is a conflict with a white supremacist) and the fact that even if (which I heavily doubt!) the amount of deadly incidents where white supremacists attack minorities does in fact decrease by them being armed, I doubt this will offset the increase of gun violence overall among peers. Overall, I think that buying a gun is not actually increasing personal security overall and that it is a serious bane for society.

I think the argument is not to disregard safety but is this really improving safety if adapted personally and on a broad scale?

The increased risk factors associated with personal and broad gun ownership are undeniable.

The increase in hate crimes are as well.

But is the elevation of risk from hate crime enough to offset the elevated risk of gun ownership personally and from the consequences of community escalation of gun ownership and carrying?

That is where the arguments seem to be taking place.

Jonm has understood me correctly. I also want to add that I appreciate your voice of reason in this debate.

@Cindi: Is being a woman actually a disadvantage when it comes to violent hate crimes (so in particular excluding rape, where being female obviously is a disadvantage, but for skull smashing I would have expected being female to actually be an advantage)? It would in fact surprise me, but I don't know any statistics on that.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Reposting this review of the Shield in light of more posts by idealists.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu9GB35lQcU

And also posting this video of the Shield in different types of elements, ranging from water, to sand, dirt, and mud. Look at how many failures and jams it has despite these elements. Damn good gun.

https://youtu.be/F30DMZvv5Sw

Actually both

Han Solo's DL-44 blaster prop is a modified Mauser C96

EVA uses a Shansi Type 17 which is a Chinese copy of the same Mauser C96 only enlarged to be able to safely fire the .45 ACP.

Also

 

[LegendofJoe]

Literally every movement that has progressed black rights included gun ownership as a main feature.

It was posted before I highly suggest you read This Nonvioleny Stuff'll Get You Killed.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/082236123X/?tag=neogaf0e-20

Please read that before you dare come at me.

Agreed, the credible threat of violence is needed to force long-term change. The environmental movement needs to realize this as well, their enemies are the exact same people.

 

[LookAtMeGo]

This thread is scary, like really scary...

Thats the point. Maybe people will stop fucking around once the fear is in them.

 

[Henkka]

WOW, REALLY?

Pepper spray, folks. Tasers. Seriously, we don't need guns for this shit, come on!

I can't believe what I'm reading here. All these ridiculous defenses that are just complete nonsense. Completely disregarding the availability of self-defense options for smaller people that don't involve lethally destroying people's internal organs. Please stop with this nonsense.

Did you see that video of the Asian lady defending her home and business? I think there were like 3 or 4 attackers. Pepper spray or a taser wouldn't have done anything. Even if you could taser one guy, another guy could charge in an instant.

A gun is the only tool that can instantly neutralise a threat and also make other attackers flee in panic instead of rushing you.

Btw I'm just talking theoretically about home invasions and stuff. The notion that race relations in the US have gotten so bad that everyone feels the need to open carry is not normal and not indicative of a healthy society. Could also lead to a significant number of totally unnecessary tragedies that wouldn't have happened if there wasn't a gun involved.

 

[LegendofJoe]

I think we'd all agree we'd like to live in a world without guns. That's certainly an ideal to think of positively.

But we don't live in an ideal, we live in reality. Guns are ALREADY HERE. They are everywhere, there are more guns in the US than people.

Denying one side access to them because it "just makes things worse" while the other is already armed is, I'm sorry, ridiculous.

Amen

 

[Lo-Volt]

This is not what I want to happen; the idea of more scared people packing heat really scares me. But this is going to be the new normal, especially if more gun control measures at the state and local level meet the buzzsaw in the new administration. Act shocked but not surprised; ethnic, racial and sexual minorities don't like the idea of getting shot down in the name of the next president.

 

[Audioboxer]

Others have already said it but America is going to be the land of guns for the foreseeable future. At least for all our life times. If children getting gunned down changes nothing then there is no point in being optimistic about reform.

People have every right to buy a gun via the current laws so there is no point in shaming people. Just encourage to get proper training. Emotionally unstable people should seek medical advice as well. Suicides via guns is probably an ugly stat in the States. With some of the posts seen on GAF after the election I'd worry more about some people not via accidental gun mistakes but genuine intention to cause themselves harm. Goodness knows some States probably don't have good enough mental health checks. You want a gun? No bother here is a shotgun.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

I think only once I got a bit testy and that was when it felt like a poster was taking shots at any dissenting opinion - like mine - as being ignorant. But that will do it to the best of us.

I think I have said multiple times I understand the fear and anxiety, that I am not going to make a choice like this for someone and that the rise in hate crimes is real and deserving of concern. If you doubt my sentiment I can't really help you there. If you want to get into a fight over who has shown they empathize the most, I have no real interest. If you want to continue to believe, that because I have different views and opinions on aspects of this discussion, that I lack sympathy, so be it.

I aint fighting, I don't particularly care whether you do or you don't have empathy. I am just giving you friendly advice since I do think you are being genuine. I largely agree with your point. But like, I'm not begging you to debate, I have zero investment in whatever you do.

It is horrible if minorities cannot feel safe and this should and must be addressed. I just think that an increase in gun ownership does not factually increase, but decreases the security of minorities instead. The two main reasons for that being that drawing a weapon may easily escalate the level of violence in a conflict (even when it is a conflict with a white supremacist) and the fact that even if (which I heavily doubt!) the amount of deadly incidents where white supremacists attack minorities does in fact decrease by them being armed, I doubt this will offset the increase of gun violence overall among peers. Overall, I think that buying a gun is not actually increasing personal security overall and that it is a serious bane for society.

Sure I agree it's not actually statistically going to make you safer. But the reason for gun ownership in the US has never been about statistics and the people for guns don't give a shit about stats. Likewise those buying these arms don't care about those stats, they care about not being helpless if some crazy racist escalates a situation. You aren't going to get anywhere trying to reason that doing nothing in the face of a country that just voted on racism is the only course worthy of your respect. It's just condescending.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Agreed, the credible threat of violence is needed to force long-term change. The environmental movement needs to realize this as well, their enemies are the exact same people.

Nah, environmental movements have been hindered by their more radical elements. There's no rational reason to be militantly environmental, nobody is "racist" against the environment. There's a place for militants in anti-racist movements because of the history of violence against minorities. Nobody is violent against the environment, it's not even a person.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

That's what they said about Trump and Brexit. The French left is completely in tatters and the French right has no one remotely charismatic that the people would want instead of Le Pen.

Le Pen isn't that charismatic in the popular opinion and even then, charisma as very little impact on how we elect. Holland is a living proof of that.

Will the left show up if Fillon is on the ticket, though? Le Pen has pandered to them, or so I've heard. Basically following the Trump gravy train. Her going through with Frexit is laughable though after the Brexit fiasco - no-one wants another Brexit.

The left will rally behind whoever wins in the LR primary. They're more willing to block the FN then the conventional right.

 

[Kenai]

This is exactly when statistics like that are useful.

If the rationale is safety and self defense, looking at what the data says are your real risk factors, including the increased risk just brought on by gun ownership seems pretty pertinent.

Otherwise you are just making decisions on emotion and unsubstantiated thought experiments.

Statistics are useful when we actually have statistical information on the current set of events which is a pretty extreme outlier compared to prior studies (unabashed white nationalist prez elect + most of his cabinet picks being just as scummy), a *definite* (though not fully documented yet) rise in violence vs minorities in the last two weeks, and (possibly) more minority gun owners than at any point in U.S. history by January of next year.

Seem like some pretty damn big data points to leave out, no? On top of what we have already been lacking for many years in gun related studies, cause they are so rarely conducted. And they probably aren't going to get answered with more data anytime soon since studies on any aspect of the gun industry are pretty damn difficult to conduct. You can't tell me what a 1000 piece jigsaw puzzle is gonna look like by being handed 15-20 pieces and that is basically what we are working with here.

So, with that being said, we are gonna turn to the other things we have lots of statistical information on. Like the history of how people with brown/olive/dark skin or same sex tendencies have been treated the last couple hundred years, and the guy who is trying to "make America great again' by returning to earlier time frames. This is the reality we live in, minorities buying guns in response is an obvious and natural reaction because they are far too used to having to deal with shit in their own way after they have been failed time and again by other means, and I can't think of a bigger middle finger to minorities than a President elect Trump in a long, long time.. As i said a few pages back, anyone busy wagging their finger at this particular symptom of a huge overarching problem is literally missing the forest for the trees and their energy would be much better spent elsewhere (start at the top).

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...se-for-more-guns-and-more-gun-control/309161/

 

[Sibylus]

Honestly, if you aren't in this situation, are white/straight/cis, are in another country, I don't want to read a lick about what you say if it's some wack fucking judgement. You think being European makes you special? You expect to just sit here and take this and be a sitting duck in the wake of rising hate crime and pro-white sentiment in my nations capitol? You can fuck right off with that mess. I don't want to kill anyone but if I need to protect myself in a practical manner, then so be it. I will not be a sitting duck. I will survive. And surviving means buying a pistol, getting training, and learning how to stop a threat if need be.

Read this thread before you dare judge us and applying a "but gaf judged white people for buying guns in droves after certain events" makes you look like an utter fool with your horrific false equivalences. Yet somehow us American's are the ones lacking critical thinking.

I think your critique falls on blind eyes. Not only is it unrealistic, it's ultimately insulting. I fully plan on arming myself and telling each and every person of color and LGBT person I know to personally strap up. If that bothers your sensibilities, time to find a new forum because this here is the new normal until our very LEGAL right to get armed is stripped away.

Bravo.

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...se-for-more-guns-and-more-gun-control/309161/

http://www.livescience.com/39813-gun-ownership-increases-firearms-deaths.html

We can keep going down the rabbit hole of cherry picking articles that benefit either side. it wouldn't be a short list (and which ones do you think is backed up by numbers and thorough research?)

 

[Jonm1010]

Statistics are useful when we actually have statistical information on the current set of events which is a pretty extreme outlier compared to prior studies (unabashed white nationalist prez elect + most of his cabinet picks being just as scummy), a *definite* (though not fully documented yet) rise in violence vs minorities in the last two weeks, and (possibly) more minority gun owners than at any point in U.S. history by January of next year.

Seem like some pretty damn big data points to leave out, no? On top of what we have already been lacking for many years in gun related studies, cause they are so rarely conducted. And they probably aren't going to get answered with more data anytime soon since studies on any aspect of the gun industry are pretty damn difficult to conduct. You can't tell me what a 1000 piece jigsaw puzzle is gonna look like by being handed 15-20 pieces and that is basically what we are working with here.

So, with that being said, we are gonna turn to the other things we have lots of statistical information on. Like the history of how people with brown/olive/dark skin or same sex tendencies have been treated the last couple hundred years, and the guy who is trying to "make America great again' by returning to earlier time frames. This is the reality we live in, minorities buying guns in response is an obvious and natural reaction because they are far too used to having to deal with shit in their own way after they have been failed time and again by other means, and I can't think of a bigger middle finger to minorities than a President elect Trump in a long, long time.. As i said a few pages back, anyone busy wagging their finger at this particular symptom of a huge overarching problem is literally missing the forest for the trees and their energy would be much better spent elsewhere (start at the top).

I didn't leave that variable out, to the contrary, I have mentioned it multiple times. And have said people need to make their minds up for themselves as it is not my place to do so.

Elevated risk factors to gun ownership and society don't go away just because there is an uptick in hate crimes. They shift the weight of decisions for sure, but they don't eliminate them. Or they shouldn't. Which is what my points have also been.

As to the quality of the evidence. You are right, improvements on research and data would be very helpful. I don't think it is going to change much of the overarching conclusions though. As that is stuff we see hold on individual, community, state, national and international levels and they seem to more or less agree. Not all research is just here in America either. For instance a bunch of data I like to reference when talking about suicide and guns is from Switzerland. Because they had a very major issue with rising gun suicides. In response they added some additional gun control measures with an aim to curb it. Multiple independent analysis years later ended up showing it worked and that no correlating uptick in alternative methods of suicide emerged to offset the drops in gun suicide. This aligns with studies done elsewhere.

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

Can anyone tell me how gun control happens when the gun lobby, this massive thing, is willing to shell out millions of dollars at the drop of a hat to counter any and every measure with propaganda, and "good guy with a gun" fantasies? Clinton wanted gun control, she didn't wanna take away your rights, she didn't wanna confiscate your shotguns, and handguns, or stifle your cowboy fantasies, and how cool all this shit is, it was sensible, thoroughly researched, and empathetic to those in dire need of change. But what happened, exactly? She got painted as someone, to a very wide and rabid demographic, who wanted to repeal the second amendment, and throw all your guns into a landfill. You can preach that "but I want gun control" all day, but what good does it do when those with the most power to peddle the most bullshit and fear-mongering say fuck that, more guns, open-carry/conceal carry like a bunch of crazy people, more lax laws(no background checks, no training, no fix for loopholes, etc etc...), put them into schools and train the teachers, don't give an inch, we need to be a society worse than the the mythical old west, and then boom, background checks fail in Maine(for example), SOUNDLY, and why? because so many people don't give actually fuuuuuuuuck about anyone but themselves, regardless of the paranoid fucking danger they imagine themselves to be in(exacerbated, by you guessed it, more guns).

Many of the staunches enthusiasts do this while peddling gun lobby propaganda/rhetoric throughout social media, and beyond, ignoring thorough research, experts and those that have faced the consequences of more guns. (and also the reality that they simply just really like guns, holding them, thinking about them and pew pew'ing at the range, this other shit is ultimately a smoke screen)

You don't fix the problem by becoming it, laying down for it, and exacerbating it's reach.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

This quote convinced me. I'll be looking into my state concealed carry after training.

Many gun-rights advocates see a link between an increasingly armed public and a decreasing crime rate. “I think effective law enforcement has had the biggest impact on crime rates, but I think concealed carry has something to do with it. We’ve seen an explosion in the number of people licensed to carry,” Lott told me. “You can deter criminality through longer sentencing, and you deter criminality by making it riskier for people to commit crimes. And one way to make it riskier is to create the impression among the criminal population that the law-abiding citizen they want to target may have a gun.”

We need get as many women as possible on the train so that men who try to fuck with us consider consequences.

Amen.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

Hell yes. It's a god damn right. I'm going to pick up my own guns cause this new Trump regime is going to be fucked.

 

[Slo]

Wasn't too long ago when we were shitting on white folks for stockpiling guns during the Obama years

That is interesting, isn't it?

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

That is interesting, isn't it?

Yep. The situation is exactly the same.

100%.

No difference.

At all.

One for one.

 

[BigDes]

That is interesting, isn't it?

Not really.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Can anyone tell me how gun control happens when the gun lobby, this massive thing, is willing to shell out millions of dollars at the drop of a hat to counter any and every measure with propaganda, and "good guy with a gun" fantasies? Clinton wanted gun control, she didn't wanna take away your rights, she didn't wanna confiscate your shotguns, and handguns, or stifle your cowboy fantasies, and how cool all this shit is, it was sensible, thoroughly researched, and empathetic to those in dire need of change. But what happened, exactly? She got painted as someone, to a very wide and rabid demographic, who wanted to repeal the second amendment, and throw all your guns into a landfill. You can preach that "but I want gun control" all day, but what good does it do when those with the most power to peddle the most bullshit and fear-mongering say fuck that, more guns, open-carry/conceal carry like a bunch of crazy people, more lax laws(no background checks, no training, no fix for loopholes, etc etc...), put them into schools and train the teachers, don't give an inch, we need to be a society worse than the the mythical old west, and then boom, background checks fail in Maine(for example), SOUNDLY, and why? because so many people don't give actually fuuuuuuuuck about anyone but themselves, regardless of the paranoid fucking danger they imagine themselves to be in(exacerbated, by you guessed it, more guns).

Many of the staunches enthusiasts do this while peddling gun lobby propaganda/rhetoric throughout social media, and beyond, ignoring thorough research, experts and those that have faced the consequences of more guns. (and also the reality that they simply just really like guns, holding them, thinking about them and pew pew'ing at the range, this other shit is ultimately a smoke screen)

You don't fix the problem by becoming it, laying down for it, and exacerbating it's reach.

What you talking about? Becoming the problem? Dude, the nation elected a man endorsed by the KKK and neo Nazi's. Becoming the problem? To them, our very existence is the problem and anyone who knows the history of subjugation these two groups have inflicted on America knows these times aren't times for idealism. They're times for action. Becoming the problem? KKK members being emboldened by their win is the true problem. If enough minorities get guns, these groups will think long and hard before they mess with us. Becoming the problem? They already made the problem. Anyone with sense can see that and anyone with sense would never make such absolutist platitudes you're making right now.

I'm not gonna say everyone who is a racial minority, religious minority, woman, or LGBT buy a gun but if you're able, why not?

 

[gregor7777]

Everyone coming around on gun ownership I see. Funny how quick ideology gets thrown out the window.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

It's Black Friday here in Murrica

S&W M&P Shield 9mm
http://palmettostatearmory.com/smith-wesson-m-p-shieldtm-9mm.html

Use the coupon code 9MM to make it $349 - $50 = $299.

 

[ishibear]

This quote convinced me. I'll be looking into my state concealed carry after training.



We need get as many women as possible on the train so that men who try to fuck with us consider consequences.

Amen.

I'm starting to get used to the idea.

 

[Laiza]

Did you see that video of the Asian lady defending her home and business? I think there were like 3 or 4 attackers. Pepper spray or a taser wouldn't have done anything. Even if you could taser one guy, another guy could charge in an instant.

A gun is the only tool that can instantly neutralise a threat and also make other attackers flee in panic instead of rushing you.

It can also escalate the situation and cause them to fight back by drawing their own weapons. Is it worth it?

Also, you're absolutely wrong about pepper spray. What makes pepper spray so good is exactly that it's so effective at disabling multiple attackers! You only need to point and spray in a wide cone at their faces. While a gun could conceivably do the job in specific situations, a pepper spray can be as effective or even more effective in situations with even more attackers. You can't rely on people supposedly getting scared and running at the sight or sound of a gun. Sometimes you'll get rushed, sometimes from multiple directions, and a gun just isn't as effective in that situation compared to something that you just hold down and spray with zero recoil.

Obviously, in any situation where the opponent has a gun of their own you're probably boned, but then again, having a gun of your own in that situation doesn't help you either. It could introduce a standoff, or it could just lead to you getting shot as you draw your weapon. Is it worth it?

Many gun-rights advocates see a link between an increasingly armed public and a decreasing crime rate. “I think effective law enforcement has had the biggest impact on crime rates, but I think concealed carry has something to do with it. We’ve seen an explosion in the number of people licensed to carry,” Lott told me. “You can deter criminality through longer sentencing, and you deter criminality by making it riskier for people to commit crimes. And one way to make it riskier is to create the impression among the criminal population that the law-abiding citizen they want to target may have a gun.”

There is so much wrong with this quote that I don't even know where to begin.

How does any of the bolded jive with the fact that the USA has, by a considerable margin, the highest imprisonment rate per-capita of any country on Planet Earth? What about the fact that we account for 82 percent of ALL GUN DEATHS despite being nowhere near 82% of the world population (currently standing at around 4.4%)? Is that a worthy trade-off? Is it really worth lower rates of assault and petty crimes if we get higher rates of violent death by firearm instead? You can recover from minor crimes. You can't recover from having your heart literally blown to pieces.

The whole thing about longer sentencing in particular is a massive - no, absolutely titanic load of bullshit. The absolute best way to reduce crime rates is to adopt the Scandinavian prison model, where humane treatment and actual positive outcomes are valued above all else. Simply locking people away forever may indeed reduce crime rates, but at the cost of untold human misery and constant violations of basic human rights.

There's so much moral bankruptcy in this thread, I think I'm just going to have to jump the hell out if this is par for the course here. Goddamn, I did not need to see this right now.

 

[RevenWolf]

Everyone coming around on gun ownership I see. Funny how quick ideology gets thrown out the window.

Fat load of good ideology gives you when white supremacists are placing burning crosses on your lawn.

 

[Yoshi]

Others have already said it but America is going to be the land of guns for the foreseeable future. At least for all our life times. If children getting gunned down changes nothing then there is no point in being optimistic about reform.

People have every right to buy a gun via the current laws so there is no point in shaming people. Just encourage to get proper training. Emotionally unstable people should seek medical advice as well. Suicides via guns is probably an ugly stat in the States. With some of the posts seen on GAF after the election I'd worry more about some people not via accidental gun mistakes but genuine intention to cause themselves harm. Goodness knows some States probably don't have good enough mental health checks. You want a gun? No bother here is a shotgun.

Just because something is legal it does not make it right. For instance, within certain limits (that far exceed what is allowed on GAF), it is legal to make misogynist or anti-trans or anti-gay claims. I think, buying guns falls into a very similar spot, where it is (wrongfully) legal in the US, yet it is reprehensible.

Sure I agree it's not actually statistically going to make you safer. But the reason for gun ownership in the US has never been about statistics and the people for guns don't give a shit about stats. Likewise those buying these arms don't care about those stats, they care about not being helpless if some crazy racist escalates a situation. You aren't going to get anywhere trying to reason that doing nothing in the face of a country that just voted on racism is the only course worthy of your respect. It's just condescending.

Not buying guns does not mean not doing anything. You can get politically active to change the political climate, you can learn self defense techniques to enable yourself to flee from assaults, you can raise awareness for the problem of the sizable amount of white supremacists and there sure are numerous more options you have to act without arming up. The fact that it is not even a rational thing to do from a purely egoistic point of view just is the icing on top.

What you talking about? Becoming the problem? Dude, the nation elected a man endorsed by the KKK and neo Nazi's. Becoming the problem? To them, our very existence is the problem and anyone who knows the history of subjugation these two groups have inflicted on America knows these times aren't times for idealism. They're times for action. Becoming the problem? KKK members being emboldened by their win is the true problem. If enough minorities get guns, these groups will think long and hard before they mess with us. Becoming the problem? They already made the problem. Anyone with sense can see that and anyone with sense would never make such absolutist platitudes you're making right now.

I'm not gonna say everyone who is a racial minority, religious minority, woman, or LGBT buy a gun but if you're able, why not?

So, everyone who is not straight, white, cis, male, christian and is not somehow unable to buy a gun, should buy a gun? This truly is utopia you are envisioning. And regarding platitudes and insanity, I would claim you are at the forefront of this topic.

I also think you are overblowing the impact of Trump. True, he was endorsed by the KKK and far-right people are delighted that he has won the election. He will also be detrimental to the US, but he has not declared minorities (and women) fair game, nor is it even remotely likely he ever will. He has won the election off the back of far-right populism, but has backed off of his more extreme claims aleady and has even been defended in some ways by Obama after the election. Trump will certainly not be good for the US, but he also is no Hitler and is not going to turn the US into a battlefield.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Moral bankruptcy?

 

[Alienfan]

I still don't see the point of owning a gun, aside from false comfort and even then, you're probably better off with pepper spray. Are there many cases or statistics showing that owning a gun is a good idea? Gun violence is ridiculously high in the US; it doesn't exactly take a PHD to understand that more guns are not going to help, they really should be banned. But I'm open-minded and willing to listen

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

So, everyone who is not straight, white, cis, male, christian and is not somehow unable to buy a gun, should buy a gun? This truly is utopia you are envisioning. And regarding platitudes and insanity, I would claim you are at the forefront of this topic.

I also think you are overblowing the impact of Trump. True, he was endorsed by the KKK and far-right people are delighted that he has won the election. He will also be detrimental to the US, but he has not declared minorities (and women) fair game, nor is it even remotely likely he ever will. He has won the election off the back of far-right populism, but has backed off of his more extreme claims aleady and has even been defended in some ways by Obama after the election. Trump will certainly not be good for the US, but he also is no Hitler and is not going to turn the US into a battlefield.

Huh? I said pretty clearly that I don't think everyone should buy a gun if you're a minority or a woman, but you might want to consider it.

You saying I'm over blowing Trump is naive I think. Considering what his supporters are deeming okay now, him not saying we are fair game is irrelevant. They will do escalate situations and violence will only grow as inauguration gets closer. Your assurances do not assure me and considering the fact that this very topic is about minorities buying more guns in the aftermath of the election, to call me insane sounds really cute tbh.

"Trump will certainly not be good for the US, but he also is no Hitler and is not going to turn the US into a battlefield."

He is no Hitler. Right. But he has actual people with ties to neo nazi's in his cabinet. He has emboldened neo nazi's to hold a convention in my nation's capitol and have their faces exposed because they no longer are afraid. If you think that, combined with the recent boost in hate crimes, does not spell trouble for anyone in the right's cross hairs, I have some history books to sell you.

Basically, your entire rationale hinges on what might not happen. But I'm telling you it's happening already. And when they start to feel it's okay to start being actually violent to us once the administration takes wing, with their anti-muslim, anti-brown, anti-black, anti-woman policies those of us with sense will have the fire power to fight back if need be.

The NYPD is forming a hate crime unit in light of this election but somehow, we're just over blowing this! You can wait for the police to come, or you can buy a gun. Your choice. We've made the case in this thread. Sorry you don't agree.

 

[Buzzman]

The NYPD is forming a hate crime unit

I know where they can start their investigation!