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Halo 4 |OT2| TURBO
- Thread starter Tashi
- Start date
Abinash117
Member
You are right , but it usually means they either replace it with something else supposedly gets used more often which means either making more powerful in a different way , easier to use , more powerful in its intended role , and/or more unique. Examples would be sticky detonator in h4 and Plasma reaper/SR in Halo Reach and h4 which basically replaced the GL and PR in either the next installment and/or matchmaking . Also I think it comes to the point the factions needed their own weapons that are counterparts to each other and sometimes similar because the weapons would be to alien for players to use.
I guess in 343 or whomever was in control of such process eyes if people find it fun or satisfying to use they would pick it up more in the maps that was on them , maybe ? The GL appeared in about 5-7 out the 13 maps around launch the same number for concussion rifles and even the RL so in comparison to some other power weapons that was used over the years like the RL , the GL was not used as often even on the maps the RL was present on . I think a lot of people did say the GL was cool to use , but I don't think those people used it that much either even on maps that had it on there. I guess the CR had more reasons and big enough reasons to stay. I don't really know most of these are guesses I think it is best to ask someone like frankie when it comes to designing weapons and the process of changing or removing existing ones . He commented on the GL , but that's about it.
User 73706
Banned
So, uh, lore question. Needler rounds only explode until all seven projectiles lodge into an organic target, right? I mean, from what we've seen, inactive rounds such as those in the gun or the big ol' chunks in 343 Guilty Spark (CE level) don't blow up. By that logic, why not just make a gun a step above the Needle Rifle? Just fire a huge-as-shit Needler chunk at something from a distance, either in the style of a Railgun or Sniper Rifle and watch as they explode instantly when it ignores their shielding. I mean, the Covenant have to have thought of this, right? It homes in on people, too! If the Covenant can reverse-engineer Forerunner tech and still end up successful, it can't be that hard to create a synthetic mineral material based on the blamite shit they extract from that moon of Sanghelios. If it homes in, you could even make Needler grenades!
If "touching an organic target" is the only requirement to activate the chemical reaction that causes blamite to blow up, how the hell do they mine it? I can absolutely see an Elite getting upset with a Grunt for not working hard enough, shoving him, and getting the Grunt impaled on a blamite crystal Final Destination-style. Cue chemical reaction and the entire moon's mineral supply blowing up at once, obliterating the planet.
If "touching an organic target" is the only requirement to activate the chemical reaction that causes blamite to blow up, how the hell do they mine it? I can absolutely see an Elite getting upset with a Grunt for not working hard enough, shoving him, and getting the Grunt impaled on a blamite crystal Final Destination-style. Cue chemical reaction and the entire moon's mineral supply blowing up at once, obliterating the planet.
Good bye it being playable in splitscreen at all then. (Not that it really matters as i run out of Live next week). All the Forge maps already in game are unplayable in splitscreen, ignoring Settler and possibly the two others than shipped with the game.
Doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be filled with forge maps. Might just be gametype and weapon/vehicle changes again. I'd like some new maps though.
The latter, and everyone and their mother will be voting the new Forge map(s) or at very least it will offer way too much it even if no one actually wants to play it due to it being shitty or something.
The former... eh, not much point unless they get rid of Infinity Slayer or make other good changes. Like get rid of Fuel Rod Guns (any map), get rid of Scorpions and Mantises or perhaps replace them with the much more balanced and fun Wraith, or... something.
Meltdown would be better with a pair of normal Warthogs and no Fuel Rod Guns. The Mantis in that map is just plain silly, it just makes both sides turtle until they're out of game.
How can you even enjoy BTB though (aside from your mongoose splattering)? I just tend to stick to action sack or team slayer now more.
The reaction causes burns when in contact with organic tissue correct? I mean, I killed a ton of brutes with needlers without supercombines. So obviously they died from woulds caused by the needles themselves
There's the explosion, but then just the ordinary chemical burn as I understand it (maybe not a "chemical burn" per se, but that idea. Chemical reaction harm).
So obviously miners wear protective clothing and gloves and things to prevent touching it.
Though maybe it isn't that simple. If you'll look at the needler in CE, you'll notice it has a circuit bord on the lower half. To me, this implies that the blamite is either quickly heated or electrolysed (or whatever that word is. basically "charged with electricity" or "electrically active").
Just my speculation.
l Zealot l
Member
I've thought about this to. The jackels use a knife or sword in contact harvest that is like what you describe. I always wondered if they would ever create a melee with the needler where you effectively stab the protruding needles out of the gun into a opponent breakinging them off, the explosive reaction happening quickly as they have a full clip in them. Pretty much a one hit one kill if you had enough needles in the clip. But anyways
It's completely plausible in universe but from a sandbox point of view we already have the fuel rod and plasma launcher both heavy one hitters. Same with the jackel knife thing, it would be cool but with the energy sword and gravity hammer in tow it's not really needed.
Either that or the guys at bungie/343 never thought of it.
Has it actually been stated anywhere that the needler and it's ammunition is actually a result of forerunner reverse engineering? Or is it all covenant?
Devolution
Member
welp shit, i like playing ss with timedog much as its already kind of bad
Hydranockz
Member
I honestly don't know how you can manage ss on anyhing ther than Haven.
-- We can infer that it's the result of some sort of reverse-engineering, due the rather over-elaborate combine effect and seeker capability. However, the weapon technology that has been explicitly noted as being from Forerunner designs are all plasma I believe. So it could be a older technology used alongside more advanced relics -- which may explain the reticence of Elites to carry needlers.
-- I can't find a specific quote that mentions it being Forerunner in origin in the novels or Encyclopedia. I don't have the H4 Visual guide on me though, it might have something.
-- However, note that the Sentinel Enforcer in Halo 2 fires projectiles that are similar to needlers (but colored red). According to the Wiki (citation needed!) Bungie wanted to have a Forerunner crystalline weapon pickup from some Sentinels that isn't in the final game. That could be pretty good evidence of Forerunner origin, or just a visual shortcut and they are not supposed to be related.
It tends to hold a decent population so search times aren't super sucky at most times in the day. Other than that it's pretty much the vehicles. I agree with Woorloog on the Mantis front though. Meltdown sucks ass because of it, and the stupidly quick respawn of the FRG.
So for the Plasma Pistol, it gets really foggy. The primary function of the Plasma Pistol was to strip shields, not to kill. Also, the way Reach handles EMPs is pretty weird. If the player charges up the Plasma Pistol and hits an opponent, it counts as an EMP assuming the player is killed. If they pulse the Plasma Pistol, it doesn't always count as an EMP. Also, there aren't any publicly available stats on how much damage each weapon has caused. So Plasma Pistol stuff is out sadly.
As for the Grenade Launcher versus the Concussion Rifle it looks like this.
HaloGAF used the Conc less, everyone else used it more.
Another thing with the ConcRifle that should be noted is that if the player knocked their opponent off the map, like on Countdown, it counted as a falling kill. I wish there was a way to see what all caused the player's death, like League and Dota do, but it's probably just a pipe dream.
Thanks for these stats.
I still find it difficult to believe how anyone can defend 343's reasoning to remove the GL without even batting an eye at the H4 CR. Did anyone here even give a shit about the CR in Reach? Yes, the raw stats point towards the CR getting a bit more usage than the GL, at least in terms of kills, but as you and many others have pointed out there are quite a few other notable factors not accounted for such as deaths from falls and overall damage. It makes it very hard to determine which weapon was used more. So how were they able to draw a clear line?
Yes, most of us want the GL back and think 343 made the wrong decision overall, but why do some of the same GL fans feel the need to defend 343's reasoning of removing infrequently used weapons?
Let's be real. Their reasoning was applied inconsistently and those of us who thought the GL was a good addition to the sandbox and a skillful weapon especially should not be defending its removal. It's defeatist and essentially an argument from middle ground.
I think the the sticky det took the place of the grenade launcher was because it was a lot more direct and easier to use. The pro pipe did require some skill and knowing how the EMP worked. The sticky det is a lot more direct and easier to figure out with only one function. I guess you could say they were right considering how widely used the sticky det it, but you also have to account for it coming up as an ordnance.
I think they were playing to the casual a little bit on this move. There are already too many OP weapons that are very direct and easy to use (Rockets, Fuel Rod Gun, Incineration, Promethean Sniper, etc), keeping one that required a little bit of skill would have been nice. But if they had so many OSK weapons, then perhaps people would flock to them and ignore the grenade launcher. The grenade launcher does have it's advantages over the others like bouncing around corners and into small rooms being camped with sword/shotty, but not everyone care. I dunno, shoulda just kept it for variety sake and never introduced the sticky det.
I think they were playing to the casual a little bit on this move. There are already too many OP weapons that are very direct and easy to use (Rockets, Fuel Rod Gun, Incineration, Promethean Sniper, etc), keeping one that required a little bit of skill would have been nice. But if they had so many OSK weapons, then perhaps people would flock to them and ignore the grenade launcher. The grenade launcher does have it's advantages over the others like bouncing around corners and into small rooms being camped with sword/shotty, but not everyone care. I dunno, shoulda just kept it for variety sake and never introduced the sticky det.
At least in Combat Evolved (and I can't tell off the top of my head if this is still visually true), the whole point was that *all* needles shatter, you just get a supercombine if a bunch of them shatter at once. In The Fall of Reach they mention helping a marine whose insides had been wrecked by just a few needles. You can see the effect in the game as well--after a few seconds the single needles break up.
As for how the weapon actually works, I don't worry too much about it. All I need to know is that it's a cool-looking, cool-sounding and cool-acting weapon (that probably should get toned down slightly from its H4 power weapon status just because I don't want another campaign where I have to fear every other Grunt.)
It'd certainly be harder to land a hit. How much more or less powerful were the grenades from the launcher compared to regular thrown grenades?
Could be a part of it, the GL does have a fuse and requires a charge time for the EMP to kill. Still, if you're not running directly at the opponent it's a fantastic weapon. The problem is all the power ups in halo 4 + sprint make it easy to charge up to people. You still would have to know what you're doing and slow down slightly. That would go against the whole COD clone + mario kart powerup dynamic microsoft wanted 343 to make.
I'm going to go ahead make a totally baseless guess that the line is that one could be easily reused in the campaign as an enemy weapon and the other couldn't. Can't exactly slap a grenade launcher on an Elite for variety the same way, and it's probably a complex enough weapon that scripting the AI to have realistic perception of the shot physics would have been difficult. And the grenade launcher wasn't ever really a great weapon against AI in Reach (where I think the sticky detonator is actually pretty strong by comparison), so maybe it just doesn't make sense to them to put in what is probably not an insignificant amount of effort into weapon exclusive to one mode. Not that it's great justification from a holistic standpoint, but the concussion rifle gave the PVE designers a pretty simple tool to use in addition to making some amount of sense for the multiplayer. I would imagine it made logistical sense, even if that's not really what we're interested in as players.
After all, in Reach firefight the Heretic Elites showed what happens when they don't realistically use human weapons.
*Step out of safe zone*
*Ten grenades to the face*
Yup. The chaotic nature of Halo 4 pretty much feels like it doomed that beloved weapon
Yup. The chaotic nature of Halo 4 pretty much feels like it doomed that beloved weapon
What's more chaotic than shooting a bunch of grenades in random directions that take random bounces!
It actually just dawned on me that 343 were also probably trying to reduce grenade spamming. That was like the #1 complaint in reach.
The Reach AI having hitscan weapons combined with their naturally crazy accuracy (they're way too accurate with non-hitscan weapons as it is, in addition to being able to headshot the player unlike in other Halos) was a really, really bad idea.
Pretty sure the Marine AI was incapable of using Grenade Launchers, they just stood there without using them.
Hehe.
The whole philosophy seems strange though, nerfing over abused elements but then introducing even more new abusive elements.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
You mirror my thoughts to a T. There's absolutely no reason to defend reasoning that was never sufficient enough to describe why the GL was removed.
As for the pace of Halo 4, I highly doubt that had anything to do with the GL's removal considering they could've buffed it over completely removing it. The Sticky Detonator is more situational in its design and is actually slower to detonate from the time you shoot to the time it travels in the air to stick to a surface, then pressing the trigger again to detonate, unless you're shooting it straight down. You can detonate the GL in the air, don't forget.
So not only does the GL have more situations to be effective, it also functions better than its replacement in a faster paced setting. MLG Reach is proof of that IMO.
The Sticky Detonator is probably among the worst weapons, if not the worst in Halo 4.
It is slow to fire, slow to fly, slow to do damage, has heavy arcing, has arbitrary max range beyond which the projectile instantly detonates, is rare... Its relatively high damage is its only saving grace... in a game filled with powerful weapon...
It would be a tad better if the projectile could be detonated by double-tapping Y when wielding your other weapon (think C4 in COD). Of course, we could have a mine-layer AA for that and it would be more interesting and fun than the Sticky Detonator.
The Grenade Launcher was most certainly one of my favorite weapons ever. The Sticky Detonator is among my most hated ones.
It is slow to fire, slow to fly, slow to do damage, has heavy arcing, has arbitrary max range beyond which the projectile instantly detonates, is rare... Its relatively high damage is its only saving grace... in a game filled with powerful weapon...
It would be a tad better if the projectile could be detonated by double-tapping Y when wielding your other weapon (think C4 in COD). Of course, we could have a mine-layer AA for that and it would be more interesting and fun than the Sticky Detonator.
The Grenade Launcher was most certainly one of my favorite weapons ever. The Sticky Detonator is among my most hated ones.
Really? The Sticky Detonator seems good to me. It's pretty bad in some cases but I have gotten a good number of kills with it. Especially by placing it somewhere strategically and waiting for an enemy (or sometimes a few enemies) to get the easy kill. I liked the Grenade launcher too, but I think it was a little too good.
I don't like sitting in one place waiting for my enemy to come to me. I prefer head-on attacks, and the Grenade Launcher worked great for supporting those, in addition to allowing wonderful skill-bounces, and great utility due to its EMP.
The Sticky Detonator doesn't allow any of those. It is a damn boring and weak weapon that replaces the best one ever.
The only secondary feature to the sticky det is to use it as a trip mine which goes against high speed combat. Plus it's very obvious and no one falls for it (if the fuse even lasts long enough) But you could use the pro pipe for that as well with way more utility. The indicator on the HUD was pretty cool. The sticky det is obvious, boring, slow, and not as fun to use.
RIP though, "only the good die young" - Elvis
RIP though, "only the good die young" - Elvis
Speaking of that, Halo 3 trip mine is better than the Sticky Detonator. IMO.
It can be used as a grenade (or like a fried of mine did, he threw it, shot it and then headshotted his enemy who lost his shields from the blast), and it had enormous force so it would flip vehicles even if it lacked power to destroy them.
Its alarm and light made it useless as a mine but it could be used for other things.
Trip mine was fun. I still remember the time I set a trip mine down in the middle of the map on Sandtrap, jumped in a vehicle and completely forgot I placed it and then ran over it, committing suicide, and getting two betrayals. Then those forge tricks with the trip mine was fun too.
:lol
My story is in Rat's Nest. I hide behind the crates on the ledge and drop a Trip Mine in front of approaching Warthog, which is blasted down the cliff.... I get a double kill. A bit later, i do this again, and again i get a double kill from a Warthog, in the same way. I wonder if the Hog's crew were the same people...
The Trip Mine was awesome.
Back when the warthog had balls. Man I wish vehicles weren't totally obsolete.
The Real Napsta
Member
Has anyone noticed how awful the sound design is in Halo 4? I literally have warthogs drive right passed me without a sound.
Maybe that's why they put this big vehicle shapes on the motion sensor?
Maybe that's why they put this big vehicle shapes on the motion sensor?
Or maybe they just don't work? I mean it's not like other things aren't broken... It sounds awful anyway in 4 I preferred older warthog sounds.
Halo 4 has a lot of sound issues. My friend fired BR in a tunnel and it caused incredibly loud echo that didn't sound natural at all.
Sounds stop often for no reason.
Distant sounds may or may not play.
Camo blocks sounds... or not.
And if you play in splitscreen, these issues are magnified.
Sounds stop often for no reason.
Distant sounds may or may not play.
Camo blocks sounds... or not.
And if you play in splitscreen, these issues are magnified.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
Halo 4 sound effects were pretty jarring for me; everything felt so different. Still unsure if I like how the Covenant vehicles sound..
Halo 4 sounds are odd IMO. As a whole, they work okay. They're not classic Halo but then the game itself isn't that so i don't mind (this ties to what i've said before, i'm okay with with redesigns, i'm not okay with leaving half to their old form, and this includes sounds).
But individually, they're often weak or meh or outright bad.
The AR, BR and SAW sound okay but the sounds are a tad odd, the AR sounds like a machine gun, not assault rifle, and the other two are... well, odd. The Sniper is fine as well.
The plasma weapons sound like staplers or something, as does the the Magnum.
The Beam Rifle sounds like a toy, ironically enough (the reasoning behind plasma sound changes was that they were "toy-like". And even more ironically the Forerunner weapons sound even more toy-like (though i like the Lightrifle's sound effects).
The Warthog sounds angry and i like that, but it also sounds like its engine is broken or something.
The Ghost and Banshee don't sound like they're supposed to (ghostly and banshee respectively), though with the Banshee this isn't new, its signature wail hasn't been strong since Halo CE.
The Rocket Launcher sounds like a pneumatic tube. What.
The Spartan Laser sounds bad but then it sound bad in Reach too so nothing new here.
The Fuel Rod Gun sounds, somewhat oddly, like its predecessors but then its sound was great in Halo CE and was made really boring later on so nothing new here either.
The grenades sound good though not special.
Movement and environmental sounds are pretty good in general.
But individually, they're often weak or meh or outright bad.
The AR, BR and SAW sound okay but the sounds are a tad odd, the AR sounds like a machine gun, not assault rifle, and the other two are... well, odd. The Sniper is fine as well.
The plasma weapons sound like staplers or something, as does the the Magnum.
The Beam Rifle sounds like a toy, ironically enough (the reasoning behind plasma sound changes was that they were "toy-like". And even more ironically the Forerunner weapons sound even more toy-like (though i like the Lightrifle's sound effects).
The Warthog sounds angry and i like that, but it also sounds like its engine is broken or something.
The Ghost and Banshee don't sound like they're supposed to (ghostly and banshee respectively), though with the Banshee this isn't new, its signature wail hasn't been strong since Halo CE.
The Rocket Launcher sounds like a pneumatic tube. What.
The Spartan Laser sounds bad but then it sound bad in Reach too so nothing new here.
The Fuel Rod Gun sounds, somewhat oddly, like its predecessors but then its sound was great in Halo CE and was made really boring later on so nothing new here either.
The grenades sound good though not special.
Movement and environmental sounds are pretty good in general.
I like having the needler as a terrifying weapon, more importantly as an important weapon.
I think the real thing that needs to change is one-shot-headshot grunts. I don't care what people say, all grunts should be killable with one shot to the head. There's just nothing like taking down a handful or grunts with the BR in H3, especially with the grunt birthday party skull on.
Halo 4's sound is weird, it's like all sounds have two volume levels:
1. really far a way, and
2. RIGHT UP CLOSE.
Really jarring and strait up weird.
EDIT: also, Halo 3 style vehicles (both in the types: warthog, chopper, etc. and strength) FTW!
I wouldn't mind CE's indestructible ones.
NobleGundam
Banned
Sticky Det & Propipe battle and to throw in Hardlight shield for a twist =P
Grenade launcher wins as it can actually be banked off of walls and fired over a certain distance without exploding. Sticky det kills for me are just off of the middle cave thing in exile pretty much or maybe the odd mantis or two, i'd rather use a grenade launcher...
Orochinagis
Member
Adding the grenade launcher in Halo 4 close quarters maps would be hilarious to camp or destroy campers, oh man the mantis would be sooooo screwed and easily replace the rocket launcher.
Sometimes the sounds keep going without any vechicle nearby.
RIP Vehicular Combat 2001-2010
User 73706
Banned
Truck nuts for halo 5 vehicles confirmed
Prinz Eugn
Member
I'D BUY THAT FOR A DOLLAR
Man, if there were vehicle DLC and vehicle ordnance drops... I would laugh watching someone get crushed by a hello kitty warthog, right before setting my Xbox on fire.
Also RIP the Grenade Launcher, it was just too difficult to use for the Danny the 7-year-old demographic. Instead we got the Sticky det, which seems mostly pointless as I see it being used mostly as a shitty rocket launcher and rarely for anything interesting.
RIP. yo truck nuts would be awesome though.
YourExWife
Member
'murca