Also gonna have to say no on this
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Halo 5: Guardians |OT5| Is HaloGAF irrelevant now?
- Thread starter sir_dany12
- Start date
And Sprint. And ADS. And 1000 weapons filling the same role. And unbalanced PvP gameplay. And no-vehicular PvP combat.
Sorry but as much as I can agree with you on the good feeling Destiny and Halo share, I can't follow you on this.
Also, copy-pasting my last answer:
I would agree the shooting in Destiny feels as good as Halo, if not better, despite having to use ADS, which is clearly a loss since Bungie proved their FPS didn't need to rest on this mechanic, and as shooting is the base mechanic, everything feel really good within Destiny loop.
But for the rest, nah, sorry, (Bungie's) Halo is far ahead above Destiny.
Destiny AI may be one of the poorest I ever had the displeasure to encounter on a game, and I never felt challenged by my surroundings in Destiny, which makes the game pretty boring to me. Yesterday, I played Keyes on Halo CE, with a buddy, and it hits my hard that Destiny will never brings me as much fun as Halo on the long run.
Bungie clearly kept the good feeling formula they had with Halo when making Destiny, and the philosophy behind 30 seconds of fun, something missing from moderns Halo, I agree, and I also agree Prometheans are killing the vibe.
I mean, if you ignore the movement, gun handling and aiming system, weapon design, enemies, encounter design, lack of vehicle integration, the fact that Halo is a sandbox shooter and basically every other element which defines FPS gameplay then maybe?
They are both sci fi shooters made by Bungie. I'll give you that.
It's not allowing or forgiving mistakes. Its just making shots land/miss randomly. randomly Punishing or rewarding players without merit.
Im not sure how getting killed for making a mistake feels bad, but getting killed for outplaying your opponent feels good or better.
I'm not sure how getting a kill you didn't earn feels good, but not getting a kill you did earn feels good or better.
I do understand wanting the gameplay to be slower and perhaps more allowing for an opportunity to overcome mistakes- but that's accomplished by making the gun more difficult, not random.
Making the gun more difficult will just result in making Halo more frustrating (for a casual audience at least).
But we are just not asking the same thing for Halo.
With random spread, I never feel bad if I die, because at close range, random spread doesn't really change the deal, and I feel more confident that my opponent will make a mistake, or the RNG god will decide I deserve a second chance, and tbh, it feels good as the game put less stress on you for being the top dog during a duel, while your skill will still matter at some point.
With random spread, I still feel like I can win a duel if someone attacked me from behind because there is like 5% he will make a mistake. It makes the duel longer in time, but not that much longer. Just to good amount to react and, maybe, overcome your opponent.
And this new random spread isn't worst than the one we got with Halo 3, so I won't complain as it's a good middle ground.
I get you want the most fair and precise weapon, but that is just too demanding for the average players, especially with a lower AIM assist like Halo 5 has.
I don't remember if Halo 2 had a random spread, I don't think it has, and the game was still fair because there was a decent amount of AIM assist, while being, to this day, the most nervous Halo game I had the pleasure to play.
curiouscharles
Member
um,
what he said.
Smartest thing you've said all week.
I think you just want something very particular, it SOUNDS like you'd prefer Halo staying the same as it used to be, which is fine, but that's not what I want [personally].
Personally, I'm EXTREMELY happy with the sandbox created for Halo 5 [strictly 4v4 speaking], and I just wish they'd offered dev-made BTB maps with pistol starts.
RSB
Banned
Yeah, it's basically classic Halo gameplay but with awesome additions like your aim going to shit any time you jump, or your sniper not shooting straight unless you're scoping (and with both feet on the ground of course) LOL
Maybe if Bungie removed those awful accuracy and movement speed penalties for everything I could see the comparison, but as it is now? No way (and that's not even getting into other aspects, like vehicles and enemy AI)
Yep.
Prinz Eugn
Member
Randomness is to make bad players feel better, yes.
The problem is it necessarily negates skill at some level, and this is a skill based game.
Halo 2 had random spread and but it was patched out after a bunch of complaints.
You keep saying that random spread increases the chances your opponent will make a mistake. It dress doesn't. It increases the chances of him having a kill stolen from him OR getting a kill he doesnt deserve.
Random spread also puts MORE pressure to perform, because the only way to overcome getting fucked by rng is to land an extra good shot while not know how many shots your opponent will have to land.
Making the gun harder doesnt mean making the gun unwieldy, (I'm in favor of high aim assist, low magnetism) it just means allowing players to miss on their own accord orr allowing players to dodge. . The reduced RRR, slower fire rate and reduced close ranged AA already achieved this. There was no need to go a step further and add a dice roll. I can't imagine many casuals would prefer missing because the game take good shots away from them over missing because weren't on target- Which is why the feedback thread offs filled with disdain for the spread.
Brian has a tweet regarding which BR players like more. Go vote.
https://twitter.com/ske7ch/status/910215700815347712
https://twitter.com/ske7ch/status/910215700815347712
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
How ballsy would it be if 343 revealed Halo 6 by saying, "Halo doesn't need sprint, and we're going to prove it to you," then proceeds to show a brand new dev-made BTB map with AR/Pistol starts. The player scopes in, revealing a 2x zoom, 4sk's an enemy and receives a Perfect Kill medal. They don't specifically mention it, but there's no radar on the HUD.
Frankie then walks out on stage, "But that's not all." He picks up a controller as he takes control of another Spartan, then says............................... (To be continued..)
Frankie then walks out on stage, "But that's not all." He picks up a controller as he takes control of another Spartan, then says............................... (To be continued..)
To elaborate- randomness is a great way to nullify the skill factor, making a game more fun casually. This is why games like Mario Kart take off. You might suck at driving, but you might get a star and run everyone over in the last lap.
But in an arena shooter, applying randomness to what is supposed to be the base starting weapon across all standard modes destroys its competitive merits.
Is there a place for randomness in halo? Sure! That's what fiesta is for, and multi-team, and warzone, and crazy king, and juggernaut etc- gametypes built upon unpredictability.
But basic halo? balance and skill are key to its appeal.
But in an arena shooter, applying randomness to what is supposed to be the base starting weapon across all standard modes destroys its competitive merits.
Is there a place for randomness in halo? Sure! That's what fiesta is for, and multi-team, and warzone, and crazy king, and juggernaut etc- gametypes built upon unpredictability.
But basic halo? balance and skill are key to its appeal.
Three crowd would go wild. People who swore halo off 7 years ago would get excited. People who like or didn't mind sprint would get over it. There would be countless articles about halo returning to its simpler roots- great publicity. Id die of happiness before i got to play it.
I can't even answer this question because both the OG and Test BR are trash. Two steps forward, one double sized step back
Crappy surveys like this lead to shit data
Then probably go to the Waypoint thread and give a more detailed explanation of your thoughts. I think that's where they are getting most of the feedback anyways.
Ahah, should I consider everything I've said before as dumb? But thanks haha.
So far as I can remember, I've always argue we all wanted different things from Halo, and the game can't please everyone since every Halo had a different gameplay, so I can't even say what is truly Halo nowadays (I'm not sure Halo CE would be the answer, as far as I love this game).
I'm not sure I want something particular, as I've enjoyed every Halo, even Halo 4, despite each one being different. Halo 5 is the only one I didn't like, and as you can see, my opinion is changing thanks to this latest update (even if it still is the last Halo I would chose to play).
Some of my friends love the sandbox created by Halo 5 and its base gameplay, some hate it.
Halo had basic settings which didn't need to evolve imo, it just needed to build upon it. From my perspective, Halo 5 didn't do that as it changed the basic settings.
It doesn't make bad players feel better as much as it make bad players doesn't feel that bad. It's a really big difference which builded on a slim philosophy.
I agree it would negate skill at some level, but which level? Not the bottom floor, or the middle one, which is where average players are. It may negate skill for high skilled players looking for a very competitive settings. It's not where the average Halo players are.
And even with that, Halo 3 demonstrated you can still have a very active competitive scene for several years thanks to changing some basics settings using custom games. The base game catered a more casual audience, the MLG settings were there for the competitive crowd.
We were basically playing two different games, built on the same foundation.
I guess that's where we differ. A casual (again, I consider myself like this, and so are many of my friends not playing Halo anymore after Halo 5 came out) won't even notice this. He will just notice that he gets a chance to fight back, and sometime he will lose, sometime he will win. Sometime, the RNG god will help him overcome its opponent attacking from behind (great reward), sometime he will just die and respawn and get another chance.
Something that is not viable if he never gets this reward (at least with a precision weapon). Or, he will use OP automatic, but there wouldn't have any tension. And no one like OP automatic weapons it seems.
There is a hard balance to find between having something hard to use, and accessible enough to offer a high skill gap without frustration.
RNG spread may not be the perfect answer (I still think it doesn't impact your skill that much, like 5%), sure, but to my pov, it's not a bad answer.
Maybe all the things you suggested are the perfect answer, and tbh, I would gladly have the opportunity to try if this is the case and decide if I prefer OG Halo 5 BR, tuning test BR or your BR.
Maybe I would love your BR. For now, I just can say I prefer Tuning test BR over OG Halo 5 BR.
Fata1moose
Banned
I like the 5SK pistol better, add in classic art style, faster base movement and retaining thrusters and you got yourself a winner.
I bookmarked this. When I need to prove an opinion can be objectively wrong, I won't even need another example to support my argument.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
My ideal Pistol to try out would be the CE Pistol as a 4sk. The starting weapon we need.
Vincent has hit rockbottom lol.
Prinz Eugn
Member
I know English isn't your first language but they are literally the same.
The higher level players are the ones most invested in the game, shelling out on microtransactions, not to mention giving it a fuckload of free publicity through streams and tournaments.
I'm not opposed to a more segregated approach, but adding randomness to base attributes is screwing over the competitive crowd since it's not something they can remove. It's a lot easier to slap on randomness over a competitive foundation than vice versa with how these games are designed. Give the BKs unranked standard social playlists and Action Sack.
Halo 4 had so much randomness it basically killed the tradition of big Halo tournaments, this is not some abstract problem.
Maybe should I say it's a small difference that makes for a big leap.
If not, then you're not getting my point, and I won't have enough (english) vocabulary to fully explain it.
I don't want to state that as a patronizing comment btw. But if you don't follow me that there is a impactful difference between someone feeling he isn't bad, without feeling he is better than someone else, then I don't have what's required to express my opinion.
I fully disagree. The higher level players are invested for sure, but so are forgers making Invasion maps during Reach era, art & pictures with objects. So are the one playing a shit ton of Rocket Race.
And most of the high level players will complain about anything, so I'm not even sure they are giving a good publicity.
At least, casuals will just say the game is fun, and if so, keep playing it and sharing the good feeling, and if it's not, then they will move on.
I mean... You are comparing 5sk BR, ordonnances, unfair start due to loadout having abilities and weapons to the very slight randomness BR spread had on Halo 5? It's like comparing Apple and Orange.
The most vocal community following Halo 4 release was the competitive one. Then we got Halo 5. And yet this same community is still as vocal as it was.
Most of the people didn't even give Halo 4 a second chance when the game got a 4sk BR patch, among ton of other QoL improvements.
Poodlestrike
Banned
If this doesn't put paid to the idea that "classic Halo" is an actual thing with testable criteria, nothing will.
curiouscharles
Member
lawlz, no, please don't read / hear / interpret it that way, sorry! ;p
totally hear where you're coming from, it's quite binary the split between people who love "new halo" [ie - Halo 5] and "old halo" [ie - duh].
i'm 100% of the former camp, but can fully appreciate the [significant] amount of players who occupy the latter.
i literally get frustrated when playing Forge PC custom games with people disabling spartan abilities - frustrates me to no end going back to slow halo [ie - old halo].
[and i don't play COD or anything, not since the United Offensive expansion on PC for COD1 way back when, just Halo and Titanfall 1 & 2 sometimes].
I think any player, casual, competitive or anything in between will notice if their reticle is on a 1-shot players head, they squeeze the trigger, and that person Doesn't die. That feels bad regardless. Sure they may not notice what's happening when they survive being shot at, but they certainly know something isn't right when they are pulling the trigger. A glance at the Waypoint & Reddit thread, or even Sketch's survey from today shows how near universal this feeling is. Some think it's bad netcode, some think it's poor hit registration, others know it's the spread. Regardless, Most recognize that something is off.
Something that is not viable if he never gets this reward (at least with a precision weapon). Or, he will use OP automatic, but there wouldn't have any tension. And no one like OP automatic weapons it seems.
There is a hard balance to find between having something hard to use, and accessible enough to offer a high skill gap without frustration.
RNG spread may not be the perfect answer (I still think it doesn't impact your skill that much, like 5%), sure, but to my pov, it's not a bad answer.
Maybe all the things you suggested are the perfect answer, and tbh, I would gladly have the opportunity to try if this is the case and decide if I prefer OG Halo 5 BR, tuning test BR or your BR.
Maybe I would love your BR. For now, I just can say I prefer Tuning test BR over OG Halo 5 BR.
The thing is, RNG doesn't make a gun accessible. It just makes it unreliable. Taking the spread out of the test BR would allow it all the pacing benefits that you enjoy without the downfalls brought on by RNG.
User 73706
Banned
you're better than this
YourExWife
Member
He's not being condescending. He's pointing out that making people feel less bad is what making them feel better means. Like saying you don't want to be less poor, you just want to be richer than you are.
I'm sure Juan had a point he wanted to make, but like he even said himself, he may not be able to fully express it properly the way he would prefer. You're asking Eugn to read into the hidden meaning of people's posts, which isn't his responsibility and is a terrible way to conduct a discussion anyway.
I know this if off topic and it has been a while since I last posted here but I just want to let you know that I'm fine after the Mexico city earthquake of today dear HaloGaf friends
Anytime, bruh. Shit is terrible.
ATOMICJORGE
Member
I know this if off topic and it has been a while since I last posted here but I just want to let you know that I'm fine after the Mexico city earthquake of today dear HaloGaf friends also thank you FATstrounat and TheEXWife for reaching out to me on facebook and twitter
also thank you FATstrounat and TheEXWife for reaching out to me on facebook and twitterPrinz Eugn
Member
Maybe I understand? You're talking about a player feeling satisfied without relation to his skill compared to other players? I'm not sure that's that significant of a factor. It's a skill-based multiplayer game, you win based on skill, and your skill level can only be defined relative to other players. If you feel "good" at the game, you almost by definition have to feel better than someone else.
However, randomness really is all about making bad players feel better about themselves, whether or not it is relative so someone else. The problem is it also makes other players feel worse, or makes the game feel unfair and therefore frustrating. By giving someone a random win, you are giving someone else a random loss. This is hugely frustrating especially when it feels like the game hands your opponent a win in spite of your superior performance. Why play a game when the game isn't actually rewarding you for playing it well?
Halo-fan casuals aren't the ones that rely on the basic competitive nature of the game. You can't forge away stuff like BR spread, at least not yet. Adding in randomness to base weapon attributes hurts competitive players, and there are ways to make the game more casual friendly without doing that.
Playlists would be an obvious place to start. Add in AR Slayer, or unranked SWAT. I would personally like unranked team slayer.
Plus, if hardcore Halo-fan casuals are happy playing Rocket Race or playing customs, do they really care the BR is slightly different?
As for advertising, I think some random consumer is way more likely to see a tournament or stream and go "oh yeah... Halo. Maybe I should buy that." than get deep into critical parts of the community and go "Stinkles is A HACK FRAUD!"
Halo 4 is just an illustration of what happens when you add too much randomness: hardcore players leave, and most casual players move onto other games, because they were never invested anyway.
Halo 4 was too long dead by the time those changes came around to make a difference.
In Halo 5 part of the perceived volume of complaints may be because they like the game enough to still be invested, whereas with Halo 4 they bailed on the franchise.
I know this if off topic and it has been a while since I last posted here but I just want to let you know that I'm fine after the Mexico city earthquake of today dear HaloGaf friends
JORGE!! Glad to hear you're alright.
Yes, it is. That's one of the reasons I love the game so much. At the core, any old Bungie fan can see Halo in Destiny.
Sure, if you remove everything that made Halo fun. Destiny is a barebones game in comparison to Halo. just an endless grind with no offline functionality!
I know this if off topic and it has been a while since I last posted here but I just want to let you know that I'm fine after the Mexico city earthquake of today dear HaloGaf friends
Good to hear. Pretty awful stuff.
Just joined to the thread again if people in here still torture themselves with Halo 5.
Destiny's PVP right now is as far away from Halo as it could be. Gunplay, balance, movement, mapdesign/spawns and variety are completely different.
The story campaign? Felt like a more modern take on classic Halo than any halo game released after Halo ODST(maybe Reach).
I'd rather play a better game altogether that doesn't force me to spend over $100 in content purposely left off the game to sell as DLC.
GringoSuave89
Banned
SmartWaffles
Member
If anyone thinks Destiny 2 crucible plays like Halo I think he needs to have his eyes checked.
Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
Dem hallways + open areas + skyboxes/backdrops + music felt like Bungie/Halo of old alright. Having your character in the cutscenes feels like Reach too...I wonder how much of the Halo engine(s) is actually in there with Destiny...
Oh yeah, i have.
Its just that I've noticed that a lot of the surveys 343 does have inherent biases that HAVE to screw with their data.
Asking which option is better without even knowing if people like either option is useless. Even a third neutral option would have been much more useful.
The better survey would be "which of these changes do you consider improvements"
Halo 5 is very barebones compared to the previous Halo games and you're describing the Destiny of yore.
--
I'd like Halo 6 to take place on an actual Halo with interesting scenery. No more industrial spaceships/planets.
Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
No we're saying the campaign felt like Halo. NOT PvP.
Samurai G0SU
Member
Halo 6 is my last hope for this franchise ... crossing my fingers they hit it out of the park for me. i want to love it....
I read no clear statement that says the pvp plays like classic halo?
We were all mostly talking about the campaign.
It's kinda interesting what Destiny 2 did in regard to enemy AI count and how it rarely feels overwhelming, especially when compared to Halo 5's campaign. A lot of D2 encounters will have anywhere from 5 enemies to around 30. Even in those larger ones, it's rare to have a sense that the enemy is killing the player at an extreme rate (this seems relegated to bosses and those damn dogs). Now comparing that to Halo 5, I always get the feeling that the enemy either has souped up weapons or they're perfectly accurate. I don't feel like I'm being challenged strategically as much as I'm being trained to fight through attrition.
I feel like that's every Halo campaign on Legendary since Halo 2.
Thats what happens when you fight against robots with no behavioral response to damage, armed with hitscan or homing weapons.
NippleViking
Banned
You won't get this, but I think with Tom French heading future multiplayer, you're going to see 343i presenting their content in a very different fashion to the past. I don't know how much influence he'll have over the general game direction, and showings - he'll likely still be constrained by other factors - but French's almost Bungie-esque design philosophy, with emphasis on the Sandbox and community, will still shine through. His approach with Forge was assess what the community wants, and evaluate the boon of said feature for the Sandbox vs. time and effort to implement.
I definitely expect more of a Show and Don't Tell approach than with Halo 5; multiplayer won't be introduced with a 5 minute summary of game mechanics. Like French's monthly Forge showcases, it'll be a candid showing with features speaking for itself. Arena and Competitive gameplay also isn't enough of a hook to attain the sort of reach 343i and MS are after either, so they'll likely show Warzone 2.0 (which I cannot wait for).
BizzyBum
Member
Some good news on a new hiring by 343: Forger MultiLockOn to work on Halo 6 MP maps.
http://teambeyond.net/forum/topic/1...ms-seeds-and-discussion/page-273#entry985380
From reddit:
His Halo 5 maps: https://www.forgehub.com/maps/authors/multilockon.22627/
http://teambeyond.net/forum/topic/1...ms-seeds-and-discussion/page-273#entry985380
From reddit:
His Halo 5 maps: https://www.forgehub.com/maps/authors/multilockon.22627/
Poodlestrike
Banned
Zoojoo posted about it a few pages ago, but I really do think that the thing that "saves" Halo (if anything does) will be community features. H5 Forge is nothing less than astounding at times, and if H6 Forge fills up the few gaps it has and gets in on day 1, with a customs browser and reactive MM additions, you'd be looking at something basically unique in the console space in terms of community creations and involvement. There's stuff that compares on PC, but it'd be pretty impressive by those standards as well, nowadays.