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[sp3000]

I feel like the whole series MP has just gone down the drain since Halo 2. There was a good opportunity to make things right with Halo 3 if equipment and AR starts hadn't been brought in.

Reach has just made a mediocre MP into a terrible one.

 

[nVidiot_Whore]

The discussion is about how Reach completely destroyed everything that made Halo great, the grenades being one of these things. If you didn't play much 2/3, then obviously you have no clue what you're talking about when people are discussing how bad nades are in Reach compared to the old games.

Like Tawpgun said, if you want to have legitimate Halo discussion, there's an entire community in the online section full of all sorts of different skill levels who all pretty much agree with how subpar Reach MP is.

This "discussion" also includes you making statements that are simply untrue.

And I'm sure there are plenty of people who share your "opinion", that doesn't change my own opinion of the game .. or the fun I've had.

And doesn't change that some of what you said is just untrue. There are tactics to avoid grenade deaths in Halo Reach.

 

[The Librarian]

As for Striker's statement, there have been many posters, Dax included, that refuse to admit the bubble shield slows down gameplay.

...Except that wasn't what he was saying. He's saying there are some in HaloGAF who argue that the bubble shield is a defining characteristic of Halo. Whether or not the bubble shield slows down the gameplay has nothing to do with that.

 

[JdFoX187]

...Except that wasn't what he was saying. He's saying there are some in HaloGAF who argue that the bubble shield is a defining characteristic of Halo. Whether or not the bubble shield slows down the gameplay has nothing to do with that.

Different wording, same meaning. You especially have defended the use of equipment, bubble shield and regen in particular, as intricate and necessary additions to the Halo formula and have argued on numerous times that it doesn't slow down gameplay, and actually adds to it. He's just pointing that out.

 

[Tawpgun]

And doesn't change that some of what you said is just untrue. There are tactics to avoid grenade deaths in Halo Reach.

I am intrigued. Entertain me.

 

[thezerofire]

I am intrigued. Entertain me.

I think he's talking about jetpacks and armor lock again

 

[The Librarian]

Different wording, same meaning.

It really isn't. Arguing whether or not the bubble shield slows down the gameplay has nothing to do with it singularly defining Halo.

You especially have defended the use of equipment, bubble shield and regen in particular, as intricate and necessary additions to the Halo formula and have argued on numerous times that it doesn't slow down gameplay, and actually adds to it. He's just pointing that out.

You're virtually wrong on all accounts here. I have never said the bubble shield, nor the regenerator, nor equipment as a whole, is a necessary addition to Halo (I can't even begin to fathom what you mean by "intricate...addition"). I have said that I think equipment is fun and I would like to see it return in Halo 4. In retrospect, equipment is a nice balance between two extremes: nothing extra (like in Halo 2) or AAs (like in Reach). If I had to choose between the two, AAs or no extras at all, I would go with nothing because I feel AAs went overboard.

Equipment made Halo more fun for me, and that is why I want to see it return.

 

[Zeal]

box art is godly. Halo 1 is godly.

nuff said.

 

[JdFoX187]

It really isn't. Arguing whether or not the bubble shield slows down the gameplay has nothing to do with it singularly defining Halo.

You're virtually wrong on all accounts here. I have never said the bubble shield, nor the regenerator, nor equipment as a whole, is a necessary addition to Halo (I can't even begin to fathom what you mean by "intricate...addition"). I have said that I think equipment is fun and I would like to see it return in Halo 4. In retrospect, equipment is a nice balance between two extremes: nothing extra (like in Halo 2) or AAs (like in Reach). If I had to choose between the two, AAs or no extras at all, I would go with nothing because I feel AAs went overboard.

Equipment made Halo more fun for me, and that is why I want to see it return.

So you're going to sit there and proclaim that you have never said equipment were necessary additions? You have argued with people on numerous times about how important equipment was to Halo 3. You're proving his point. Even ignoring the point of whether equipment belongs in Halo or doesn't, you're arguing that it belongs in Halo now because of how fun it was to use. Either way, not going to bother replying anymore. It's a moot point.

 

[thezerofire]

So you're going to sit there and proclaim that you have never said equipment were necessary additions? You have argued with people on numerous times about how important equipment was to Halo 3. You're proving his point. Even ignoring the point of whether equipment belongs in Halo or doesn't, you're arguing that it belongs in Halo now because of how fun it was to use. Either way, not going to bother replying anymore. It's a moot point.

saying he'd like to see it again isn't the same as saying it belongs in halo...

 

[The Librarian]

So you're going to sit there and proclaim that you have never said equipment were necessary additions?

Yes I am. And if I have said that in the past, or have mislead people about my actual opinion, then I will say I was wrong.

You have argued with people on numerous times about how important equipment was to Halo 3.

I've argued that I think how it added to the fun factor of Halo 3, yes.

You're proving his point. Even ignoring the point of whether equipment belongs in Halo or doesn't, you're arguing that it belongs in Halo now because of how fun it was to use.

You're using circular logic here. Did you even read my post? If equipment and such additions were necessary, the MP of Halo: CE and Halo 2 wouldn't have thrived without them. But they did. As I said before, I would rather see Halo 4 be bare bones than have a whole bunch of AAs that people spawn with and can use an unlimited amount of times.

 

[nVidiot_Whore]

I am intrigued. Entertain me.

Really? Read my posts.. or just use common sense.

You guys hate Reach, I get it. Pointless to discuss this with you guys, you are all exaggerating making blanket statements.

It's harder to avoid grenades in Reach. I get that, but saying it's impossible is flat out nonsense.

 

[JdFoX187]

saying he'd like to see it again isn't the same as saying it belongs in halo...

Isn't that semantics? I don't want something there if it doesn't belong. If it does belong, I would want it in the game. Maybe we're looking at it from different perspectives, but I just don't see how one can separate one facet from the other.

Really? Read my posts.. or just use common sense.

You guys hate Reach, I get it. Pointless to discuss this with you guys, you are all exaggerating making blanket statements.

It's harder to avoid grenades in Reach. I get that, but saying it's impossible is flat out nonsense.

I think the ultimate issue with grenades is how you have to rely on an armor ability to do it. If you want to truly stay safe from grenades, use armor lock. But then you sacrifice movement speed. If you want movement speed, use sprint, but then you're an easier target for grenades. It's a common trade-off used in many games such as Battlefield, Call of Duty and Shadowrun, which this seems like an unofficial sequel to in many respects. But the problem with Reach is there's a bastard design between class-based gameplay with the different abilities and how they affect the flow of the game and the classic Halo formula.

 

[godhandiscen]

The discussion is about how Reach completely destroyed everything that made Halo great, the grenades being one of these things. If you didn't play much 2/3, then obviously you have no clue what you're talking about when people are discussing how bad nades are in Reach compared to the old games.

Like Tawpgun said, if you want to have legitimate Halo discussion, there's an entire community in the online section full of all sorts of different skill levels who all pretty much agree with how subpar Reach MP is.

That broken Melee... ughh.

It's still fun, but not H3 fun.

 

[Blue Ninja]

Oh, multiplayer discussion. I know that it is part (if not the biggest) of Halo, but yeah, if you are not contributing well to it or care about the campaign (like do not want to get spoiled) - there is a high chance you are getting called out.

I learned that pretty fast and brutal

Master Chief kills Dumbledore.

Am I doing it right?

And imo, Reach's multiplayer is probably the weakest in the series (with 3 being the best), but its Campaign and Firefight modes are pretty awesome, story issues notwithstanding. :lol It still feels like Halo to me. Can't wait for the new maps, especially the Firefight one.

 

[Lothars]

I feel like the whole series MP has just gone down the drain since Halo 2. There was a good opportunity to make things right with Halo 3 if equipment and AR starts hadn't been brought in.

Reach has just made a mediocre MP into a terrible one.

I feel that the multiplayer has gotten better especially since the crap that was Halo 2, I think Halo 2 hurt the series more than anything else and Halo 3/Reach are what kept the series going.

 

[JdFoX187]

I feel that the multiplayer has gotten better especially since the crap that was Halo 2, I think Halo 2 hurt the series more than anything else and Halo 3/Reach are what kept the series going.

*blink*blink* How did Halo 2's multiplayer hurt the series? I'm actually serious with this question, as it's usually regarded as the game with the best maps and certainly best matchmaking.

 

[godhandiscen]

*blink*blink* How did Halo 2's multiplayer hurt the series? I'm actually serious with this question, as it's usually regarded as the game with the best maps and certainly best matchmaking.

It introduced dual wielding. However, that's the only negative I can think of.

 

[JdFoX187]

It introduced dual wielding. However, that's the only negative I can think of.

Eh, dual wielding wasn't that bad. SMG starts on large maps were a bone-headed decisions. But the dynamic that the different dual wielding combinations brought forth really expanded the sandbox. Aside from a sword that had entirely too long of a lunge distance and unlimited ammunition, I can't think of anything wrong. Unless you consider button combinations and the standbying, modding and numerous other cheating tools.

 

[thezerofire]

Isn't that semantics? I don't want something there if it doesn't belong. If it does belong, I would want it in the game. Maybe we're looking at it from different perspectives, but I just don't see how one can separate one facet from the other.

It really isn't semantics. Grenades belong in the game. It wouldn't be a Halo game without grenades. Equipment can be fun. Obviously there are Halo games without equipment that are fun.

I feel that the multiplayer has gotten better especially since the crap that was Halo 2, I think Halo 2 hurt the series more than anything else and Halo 3/Reach are what kept the series going.

I almost spit my water out all over the screen. what the fuck?

 

[nVidiot_Whore]

I think the ultimate issue with grenades is how you have to rely on an armor ability to do it. If you want to truly stay safe from grenades, use armor lock. But then you sacrifice movement speed. If you want movement speed, use sprint, but then you're an easier target for grenades.

But I'm almost never using armor lock.. jet pack or sprint the majority of times.

Yet if you look at my stats, my grenade deaths aren't skewed in some large manner. "a tiny zygote."

Considering how everyone has grenades, and they are all over the map.. if there were huge balance issues I should have more grenade deaths no?

If it's not the balance certain people prefer that sucks for them.. I just don't get the need to exaggerate.

 

[godhandiscen]

Eh, dual wielding wasn't that bad. SMG starts on large maps were a bone-headed decisions. But the dynamic that the different dual wielding combinations brought forth really expanded the sandbox. Aside from a sword that had entirely too long of a lunge distance and unlimited ammunition, I can't think of anything wrong. Unless you consider button combinations and the standbying, modding and numerous other cheating tools.

Yes, those were horrible aspects, but Halo 2 started the whole "lack of long range wepon" starts. I remember Bungie introduced these horrible playlists on which everybody started with an SMG and a Magnum and it was a race to pick up a second SMG or find a BR. This shit wasn't fixed until midway through H3 when Bungie introduced BR + AR starts.

 

[JdFoX187]

It really isn't semantics. Grenades belong in the game. It wouldn't be a Halo game without grenades. Equipment can be fun. Obviously there are Halo games without equipment that are fun.

To me though, the games with equipment were not fun, and were quite the contrary. I thought the equipment ruined the game. And Dax himself had admitted that he didn't like Halo 2. I've never seen his views on Halo: CE's multiplayer, if he ever played it. So I still think it's semantics.

 

[Lothars]

*blink*blink* How did Halo 2's multiplayer hurt the series? I'm actually serious with this question, as it's usually regarded as the game with the best maps and certainly best matchmaking.

I just have nothing good to say about Halo 2, I finished the singleplayer and played a little multiplayer than put it back into it's case and never touched it again, I hated it.

I wouldn't have got back into the series but I had friends that convinced me to get Halo 3, I just have nothing but distain for Halo 2 mainly for the singleplayer but it killed the game for me.

 

[godhandiscen]

I just have nothing but distain for Halo 2 mainly for the singleplayer but it killed the game for me.

Wow wow wow hold it there brah. Halo 2's singleplayer was some epic shit. It didn't live up to the impossibly high expectations, but it added depth to the universe. I didn't enjoy playing it as much as I enjoyed CE, but a lot of the universe was settled in H2.

 

[thezerofire]

To me though, the games with equipment were not fun, and were quite the contrary. I thought the equipment ruined the game. And Dax himself had admitted that he didn't like Halo 2. I've never seen his views on Halo: CE's multiplayer, if he ever played it. So I still think it's semantics.

see, that's where your opinions differ. he said he would be fine without equipment, so that's him saying that they don't necessarily belong in Halo.

I just have nothing good to say about Halo 2, I finished the singleplayer and played a little multiplayer than put it back into it's case and never touched it again, I hated it.

I wouldn't have got back into the series but I had friends that convinced me to get Halo 3, I just have nothing but distain for Halo 2 mainly for the singleplayer but it killed the game for me.

so you didn't really play Halo 2 multiplayer then?

 

[JdFoX187]

But I'm almost never using armor lock.. jet pack or sprint the majority of times.

Yet if you look at my stats, my grenade deaths aren't skewed in some large manner. "a tiny zygote."

Considering how everyone has grenades, and they are all over the map.. if there were huge balance issues I should have more grenade deaths no?

If it's not the balance certain people prefer that sucks for them.. I just don't get the need to exaggerate.

Stats can be deceiving. There have been games where I've been killed by a single grenade with full shields. Urk says this is impossible, but I could go back and record videos to prove it if I was inclined. You're a skilled player, as am I, so obviously we're going to have more kills than deaths with many weapons, grenades being one of them. Still doesn't change that grenades are indeed overpowered and it is harder to avoid them. Much of HaloGAF exaggerates the issues, but that's messageboard posting for you.

Yes, those were horrible aspects, but Halo 2 started the whole "lack of long range wepon" starts. I remember Bungie introduced these horrible playlists on which everybody started with and SMG and a Magnum and it was a race to pick up a second SMG or find a BR. This shit wasn't fixed until midway through H3 when Bungie introduced BR + AR starts.

Halo 2 was the first Halo game that had mandated multiplayer. Even the basic Slayer variant in Combat Evolved started one out with a plasma pistol, which was even more useless than the SMG. But they remedied this soon after. Back when Bungie actually cared about matchmaking, there were map tailored gametypes, most of which had BR starts, especially the larger maps. Only small ones like Lockout, Midship and a few others had SMG or Plasma Rifle starts. That is to say except Waterworks, with its Plasma Rifle starts, which never made any sense.

see, that's where your opinions differ. he said he would be fine without equipment, so that's him saying that they don't necessarily belong in Halo

He has said in other threads that equipment was important to Halo 3. Here he said it was what made the game fun. Different interpretations I guess.

 

[The Librarian]

To me though, the games with equipment were not fun, and were quite the contrary. I thought the equipment ruined the game. And Dax himself had admitted that he didn't like Halo 2. I've never seen his views on Halo: CE's multiplayer, if he ever played it. So I still think it's semantics.

Halo 2 was a lot of fun when you were doing glitches. Those are my best memories about Halo 2.

 

[godhandiscen]

Halo 2 was the first Halo game that had mandated multiplayer. Even the basic Slayer variant in Combat Evolved started one out with a plasma pistol, which was even more useless than the SMG. But they remedied this soon after. Back when Bungie actually cared about matchmaking, there were map tailored gametypes, most of which had BR starts, especially the larger maps. Only small ones like Lockout, Midship and a few others had SMG or Plasma Rifle starts. That is to say except Waterworks, with its Plasma Rifle starts, which never made any sense.

I actually enjoyed the small maps like Lockout, Midship, Ascension, Beaver Creek and Ivory Tower, but the weapon starts were just shit.

 

[thezerofire]

He has said in other threads that equipment was important to Halo 3. Here he said it was what made the game fun. Different interpretations I guess.

Halo 3 isn't all of Halo. I think that's where we're getting tripped up.

 

[MrBig]

Wow wow wow hold it there brah. Halo 2's singleplayer was some epic shit. It didn't live up to the impossibly high expectations, but it added depth to the universe. I didn't enjoy playing it as much as I enjoyed CE, but a lot of the universe was settled in H2.

It's the only in-game story line that actually has any exposition and expression in it. And then there's the fantastic level design and art direction. The only downturn is the cliffhanger that resulted from time constraints forcing the last level to be cut.

 

[Striker]

Yes, those were horrible aspects, but Halo 2 started the whole "lack of long range wepon" starts. I remember Bungie introduced these horrible playlists on which everybody started with an SMG and a Magnum and it was a race to pick up a second SMG or find a BR. This shit wasn't fixed until midway through H3 when Bungie introduced BR + AR starts.

The SMG starts were no worse than the AR in 3/Reach, I thought. Sure a single SMG is weak as hell, just like holding an AR on Blackout or The Pit is asking for death. But with a SMG start and plenty of dual-wielding weapons lying around, you were better contested against a BR user by dual-wielding than with an AR.

We never started with a Magnum unless it was a Swat variant. It was a single SMG unless it was a designated BR starts, which was the case for the mid-size or large maps. In Halo 3 they had AR starts, even on the large maps in certain playlists, and within a year they added in the Magnum secondary, which honestly helped nothing because the weapon was god awful.

 

[godhandiscen]

The SMG starts were no worse than the AR in 3/Reach, I thought. Sure a single SMG is weak as hell, just like holding an AR on Blackout or The Pit is asking for death. But with a SMG start and plenty of dual-wielding weapons lying around, you were better contested against a BR user by dual-wielding than with an AR.

We never started with a Magnum unless it was a Swat variant. It was a single SMG unless it was a designated BR starts, which was the case for the mid-size or large maps. In Halo 3 they had AR starts, even on the large maps in certain playlists, and within a year they added in the Magnum secondary, which honestly helped nothing because the weapon was god awful.

You are right, my memory is bad. However, as I said, Bungie sort of corrected their ways midway through Halo 3 when they added AR+BR starts.

AR starts in Valhalla... LOL

 

[The Antitype]

The SMG starts were no worse than the AR in 3/Reach, I thought. Sure a single SMG is weak as hell, just like holding an AR on Blackout or The Pit is asking for death. But with a SMG start and plenty of dual-wielding weapons lying around, you were better contested against a BR user by dual-wielding than with an AR.

We never started with a Magnum unless it was a Swat variant. It was a single SMG unless it was a designated BR starts, which was the case for the mid-size or large maps. In Halo 3 they had AR starts, even on the large maps in certain playlists, and within a year they added in the Magnum secondary, which honestly helped nothing because the weapon was god awful.

SMG starts were just as bad in principle as they were in practice. In practice, you had a short-range automatic weapon that was useless against anybody that had been alive for more than 15 seconds (cause they would have picked up another DW weapon, or upgraded by then).

In principle, the fact that dual-wielding was the quickest way to increase your threat and life-span meant that the SMG encouraged dual-wielding just by the nature of it's existence. Players were encouraged to dual-wield - which in practice is nothing more than spraying and praying - instead of relying on the shoot/grenade/melee system that made Halo what it is.

The AR, while less effective than a BR or DMR, is much more effective than the SMG (better range, comparable damage output) and forces players to learn and use the shoot/grenade/melee system to stay alive.

Personally, I think it would have been cool for the DMR to be the starting weapon in Reach, and had the BR as well. Burst-fire, but the spread+bloom and only a 2x scope would have made it a specialized trade-off to the DMR. Better at mid-range and close-range, worse at long range.

 

[VGChampion]

, but I'm almost certain that nothing introduced in Reach will be carried over to 4. When I say that, I mean mainly AA's, bloom, nade power, and the melee system as a whole.

I really hope so. My friends and I only play Halo these days when we're all in the same house and can't play on multiple 360's. I would have enjoyed Reach's multiplayer more had it some classic playlists with equipment (I can play MW2 without Killstreaks, why can't I have variation here?) and had a better variety of maps. Almost every map looks the same to me now unless it's based on an old map like Ascension.

It does makes me sad that I barely play Reach when 1-3 were such a big part of my gaming life. There wasn't another multiplayer game I touched while playing those. Well, except for a summer when WoW first showed up.

 

[JdFoX187]

SMG starts were just as bad in principle as they were in practice. In practice, you had a short-range automatic weapon that was useless against anybody that had been alive for more than 15 seconds (cause they would have picked up another DW weapon, or upgraded by then).

In principle, the fact that dual-wielding was the quickest way to increase your threat and life-span meant that the SMG encouraged dual-wielding just by the nature of it's existence. Players were encouraged to dual-wield - which in practice is nothing more than spraying and praying - instead of relying on the shoot/grenade/melee system that made Halo what it is.

The AR, while less effective than a BR or DMR, is much more effective than the SMG (better range, comparable damage output) and forces players to learn and use the shoot/grenade/melee system to stay alive.

Personally, I think it would have been cool for the DMR to be the starting weapon in Reach, and had the BR as well. Burst-fire, but the spread+bloom and only a 2x scope would have made it a specialized trade-off to the DMR. Better at mid-range and close-range, worse at long range.

Spraying and praying was only good up close though. It had its place in the sandbox. It was another alternative to the sword or shotgun, much in the same way the mauler and hammer were alternatives in Halo 3. Besides, even someone spraying and praying with dual SMGs could easily get taken out by dual magnums, SMG/Magnum and any other number of combinations.

It wasn't just the spray and pray -> melee that Halo devolved into with Halo 3 and subsequently Halo Reach.

 

[thezerofire]

Spraying and praying was only good up close though. It had its place in the sandbox. It was another alternative to the sword or shotgun, much in the same way the mauler and hammer were alternatives in Halo 3. Besides, even someone spraying and praying with dual SMGs could easily get taken out by dual magnums, SMG/Magnum and any other number of combinations.

It wasn't just the spray and pray -> melee that Halo devolved into with Halo 3 and subsequently Halo Reach.

that's why I mostly played MLG, BTB, swat, or snipes in Halo 3. And why I stick to Team Classic in Reach

 

[JdFoX187]

that's why I mostly played MLG, BTB, swat, or snipes in Halo 3. And why I stick to Team Classic in Reach

I like you. Your playlist choices are superb.

 

[GavinGT]

I'm hopeful that 343 will take the necessary efforts to tweak Reach for Classic mode. I really want to believe that they will. However, I just don't think that any number of tweaks is going to restore the feel of Halo.

I can still remember the first time I played the Halo: Reach beta. As I walked around Sword Base for the first time, it was clear to me that the game didn't feel right. It wasn't armor abilities, movement speed, jump arc, or anything like that. It just felt totally foreign to me. Perhaps it's the engine itself, I don't know, but I just don't see them creating a faithful reproduction of Halo within the Reach framework.

 

[StalkerUKCG]

Hey,

So the graphical layer running on top of CEA, i assume that adds new geometry correct?.
Some areas in the screenshots for instance have redesigned structures.

I honestly only expected redrawn textures. Hot swapping in and out geometry must be fairly taxing on the system.

 

[The Antitype]

Spraying and praying was only good up close though. It had its place in the sandbox. It was another alternative to the sword or shotgun, much in the same way the mauler and hammer were alternatives in Halo 3. Besides, even someone spraying and praying with dual SMGs could easily get taken out by dual magnums, SMG/Magnum and any other number of combinations.

It wasn't just the spray and pray -> melee that Halo devolved into with Halo 3 and subsequently Halo Reach.

Your argument is that players could defeat spray-and-pray users with either a) better/precision weapons picked up after spawn and b) intelligent use of the gameplay mechanics isn't any less true for Halo 3 and Reach.

Players that spray-and-pray with the AR are easy to deal-with in both Halo 3 and Reach by the same methods. Either you use a precision weapon at appropriate range (pistol, DMR, NR, whatever) and take them out before they kill you, or if you have an automatic weapon yourself, then you use grenades to weaken them for a quicker kill.

If your immediate course of action when confronted with somebody running at you with an AR is to run right into them and hope you win a melee battle, then that's a problem with you more-so than the game.

 

[thezerofire]

I'm hopeful that 343 will take the necessary efforts to tweak Reach for Classic mode. I really want to believe that they will. However, I just don't think that any number of tweaks is going to restore the feel of Halo.

I can still remember the first time I played the Halo: Reach beta. As I walked around Sword Base for the first time, it was clear to me that the game didn't feel right. It wasn't armor abilities, movement speed, jump arc, or anything like that. It just felt totally foreign to me. Perhaps it's the engine itself, I don't know, but I just don't see them creating a faithful reproduction of Halo within the Reach framework.

I'm just hoping they set things right with Halo 4

I like you. Your playlist choices are superb.

now I feel all fuzzy

 

[JdFoX187]

Your argument is that players could defeat spray-and-pray users with either a) better/precision weapons picked up after spawn and b) intelligent use of the gameplay mechanics isn't any less true for Halo 3 and Reach.

Players that spray-and-pray with the AR are easy to deal-with in both Halo 3 and Reach by the same methods. Either you use a precision weapon at appropriate range (pistol, DMR, NR, whatever) and take them out before they kill you, or if you have an automatic weapon yourself, then you use grenades to weaken them for a quicker kill.

If your immediate course of action when confronted with somebody running at you with an AR is to run right into them and hope you win a melee battle, then that's a problem with you more-so than the game.

Sprayer and prayers in Halo 3 and Reach are worse because the Assault Rifle is so weak to kill someone with that it either takes a full clip, or a melee. At least with Halo 2's dual wielding, you can pick up a magnum and with some well placed headshots, take out someone more quickly with SMG/Magnum than you would just holding down the trigger. There's still aiming involved. Your better argument would be that there was still dual wielding in Halo 3 that could still be utilized.

 

[ido]

Halo 2 was only the beginning of making Halo not nearly as enjoyable for me. I played CE for years before the release of Halo 2, and I anticipated Halo 2 more than any other game in history, because of how obsessed me and all of my friends were with CE. Picked it up at midnight, brought it home... and was instantly disappointed. The field of vision made me feel claustrophobic. The physics of the grenades(specifically, how far and accurate you could throw them) was horrible to me. Starting weapons being SMGs was one of the worst decisions ever(which, I admit, was later changed). It just felt... clunkier to me. It did not have the smooth feel of CE at all. I was sad... I'm pretty sure my friends and I turned it off and went back to CE that first night.

Halo 3 did not let me down as much as 2, only because my expectations for having another game like CE was pretty low anyway. Reach just succeeded in hitting an even lower point for me with the added abilities, bloom and the incredibly slow walking speed.

I feel very sorry for the Halo fans that never got a chance to experience a really good LAN party with 4 Xbox's running CE. It was the absolute most fun I have had playing video games. My crew never even once considered playing Halo 2 over LAN, because of all of the reasons above.

It seems like the original fans of CE multiplayer will never get to experience is online(other than XBC, etc... which I did for a while). It's very disheartening.

 

[godhandiscen]

Hey,

So the graphical layer running on top of CEA, i assume that adds new geometry correct?.
Some areas in the screenshots for instance have redesigned structures.

I honestly only expected redrawn textures. Hot swapping in and out geometry must be fairly taxing on the system.

I bet it is. Saber has created their own engine even, which from screenshots looks better than Reach. I hope they are able to add Theater, but if they can't I wouldn't mind if the graphical jump over Reach is significant.

 

[StalkerUKCG]

I bet it is. Saber has created their own engine even, which from screenshots looks better than Reach. I hope they are able to add Theater, but if they can't I wouldn't mind if the graphical jump over Reach is significant.

I wonder if the gold zealots are going to return of if we get the reach era red zealots.
A return to old style elites would be awesome but judging from what we have seen looks like they just swapped in all the reach models.

 

[godhandiscen]

I wonder if the gold zealots are going to return of if we get the reach era red zealots.
A return to old style elites would be awesome but judging from what we have seen looks like they just swapped in all the reach models.

They couldn't have swapped in the Reach models if they want to keep the timings of the CE animations. The gameplay engine is CE still. I remember hearing Saber made their own models, but I am not sure of that anymore.

 

[The Antitype]

Sprayer and prayers in Halo 3 and Reach are worse because the Assault Rifle is so weak to kill someone with that it either takes a full clip, or a melee. At least with Halo 2's dual wielding, you can pick up a magnum and with some well placed headshots, take out someone more quickly with SMG/Magnum than you would just holding down the trigger. There's still aiming involved. Your better argument would be that there was still dual wielding in Halo 3 that could still be utilized.

That's not a problem with the weapon, that's by design. If the clip in the AR wasn't that shallow, players would complain that the weapon is too powerful because people using it could just unload without aiming for 30 seconds.

The ideal starting weapon is a weapon you can defend yourself with, but isn't so powerful that it discourages you to find better weapons.

A shallow clip requires that players use grenades and melees effectively to kill with the AR. If they want to kill more efficiently, then they have to move through the map and find a better weapon.

Now, if you want to immediately go on the offensive with an AR and start killing people, that's your call, but you're going to need to be smart with your grenades and melees to do it.

 

[StalkerUKCG]

They couldn't have swapped in the Reach models if they want to keep the timings of the CE animations. The gameplay engine is CE still. I remember hearing Saber made their own models, but I am not sure of that anymore.

The trailer shows a section in the prison cells area of the truth and reconciliation (the player is holding a needler) and its clearly the white ultra from reach he is fighting. It really is a shame CE had some great elite variants.

 

[Arsenal2022]

That's not a problem with the weapon, that's by design. If the clip in the AR wasn't that shallow, players would complain that the weapon is too powerful because people using it could just unload without aiming for 30 seconds.

The ideal starting weapon is a weapon you can defend yourself with, but isn't so powerful that it discourages you to find better weapons.

A shallow clip requires that players use grenades and melees effectively to kill with the AR. If they want to kill more efficiently, then they have to move through the map and find a better weapon.

Now, if you want to immediately go on the offensive with an AR and start killing people, that's your call, but you're going to need to be smart with your grenades and melees to do it.

That suggests that having a wide sandbox and a gameplay model where the player is encouraged to experiment is a situation which is always desired. A very vocal component of the halo community would rather be able to always spawn with a weapon which is indispensible, as it leads to a game which is both very competitive and reduces additional variables other than the skill of the player. This by no means leads to a bad game in itself, but to a niche one, which only appeals to a select audience.

There is nothing wrong with this desire in priniciple, but I think that what you said about the AR should be followed for most games. My comment is that perhaps the personalisation of the Halo experience should extend to a deeper level than the current implementation in the playlists.

e.g. lets take Reach: You spawn with the AR in most playlists and it has its current damage and everything else is as normal. However, in specific playlists you spawn with a beefed up, bloomless DMR. Having two concurrent systems allows would effectively remove a lot of this type of complaint, and should 343 bake this in to their engine would allow the matchmaking to evolve with the community.

tl;dr 343, bake in weapons damage/attribute modifications, experiment with the community.