But fundamentally, you're selling two games as one, and I don't think that's a good idea. Better to have two completely different teams, two completely different sustains, and two different marketing pushes to explain how this appeals to Segment B who might not touch a game like A, Halo or no Halo. I've certainly said on here way too many times how I'd love a larger, Battlefront/Battlefield-styled Halo, even as Invasion and Dominion sorta kinda' scratched that itch, but I think I've seen enough to conclude it's not feasible in the 16 player cap, just as I really like that 16 player cap for other reasons.
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But fundamentally, you're selling two games as one, and I don't think that's a good idea. Better to have two completely different teams, two completely different sustains, and two different marketing pushes to explain how this appeals to Segment B who might not touch a game like A, Halo or no Halo. I've certainly said on here way too many times how I'd love a larger, Battlefront/Battlefield-styled Halo, even as Invasion and Dominion sorta kinda' scratched that itch, but I think I've seen enough to conclude it's not feasible in the 16 player cap, just as I really like that 16 player cap for other reasons.
Silly.Mikey
Banned
Well now, ya. Right now its more and more how i disliked the previous one: Too many different game-types in one playlist. Theyre trying to please the old-school fans but without changing how Halo4 was designed. Its just confusing now.
Edit: I wish they would have just kept halo4 what it was and changed whatever they wanted to change for 5. I don't like how it feels like this game has no identity anymore.
They seem to be just separating the community in two within an already practically non-existent population. They also separated the population in Reach with the "with TU" and "without TU" playlists. So far from what i noticed, they're very good at confusing the population.
Snap
YourExWife
Member
You and I have come to this same conclusion too many times to count at this point.
ElzarTheBam
Member
Xand killed Halo.
Except that level of diverse gameplay is the reason Halo succeeded, not where it has ever failed.
I don't think you are getting the issue. Imagine you have a spectrum where competitive Halo is at one end and BTB shenanigans is at the other. Every Halo has been diverse enough to let them play between either end, but never fully at one end. Halo Reach's DMR gives the best example of this. Zero bloom DMR is awful for BTB, but pretty good for MLG. Full bloom DMR is decent for BTB, but horrible for MLG. The gameplay is diverse on the spectrum, but the inability to narrow down how diverse is what they are describing.
Silly.Mikey
Banned
Exactly what i said. Having a weapon like a "before TU" pistol and a "after TU" pistol is exactly what Reach did wrong when 343 took over and now they did the same with 4 but with Infinity and non infinity playlists. So far, they successfully separated and confused the community in both games they worked on. They need to have one vision and stick with it. There seems to be too many hands in the pie at 343 from what i can tell.
Bungie had one vision and saw it through till the end. It didn't always blow people away but at least had A genuine vision to their games. Halo4 seems to have too many at this point and if this keeps up, i cant see how they turn things around in the next one. Itll be the same shit all over again.
Halo CE did it better than any other Halo game. The reason it worked was because the utility weapon wasn't fucking ridiculously easy to use. Hey, imagine that. Want to stop BTB from becoming Big Team Snipers? Don't make the primary weapon stupidly easy to use at long range. Want to appeal to competitive gamers? Don't make the primary weapon stupidly easy to use.
The idea that you need two separate games to appeal to both crowds is ridiculous.
They'd be two fundamentally different game modes that should get balanced separately. I'm agreeing with people here that the "zero bloom" / TU stuff is really annoying; the weapon should work the same in every single non-minigame mode.
But, as established, a Battlefront/field style map is completely different from a Halo 4v4 deathmatch map, and why should you try and likely fail to make the sandbox benefit two widely different playercounts, environments, and game styles?
aHebrewMenagerie
Member
This is an excellent post. I've never realized this point that Halo is either one way or the other, it's a bit simplistic way of putting it, but essentially right. The main question is, which one do you choose?
I feel that Halo 4 was orientated around BTB and BTB seems to be the most popular playlists, idk if that's a shift in the player base or what, but people like BTB. Personally I hate BTB, and think that Halo would be better suited for 4v4s.
But Halo is a game that caters to many communities, and I think that we'll never get a game that caters to the competitive community 100%.
Silly.Mikey
Banned
You know what, im an avid BTB player and it was always fun, even back in the Halo2 days. But I feel like focusing too much on BTB is another thing they did wrong in 4 and to a certain degree in Reach as well. The size of the maps were mostly too big in both of both of those games. I found it very hard to do 3-4 player customs in both those games. Most maps were just too big. If they start building Halo5 MP small but just add some big maps, i feel like that would be a much better design rather than build it around big maps.
Prinz Eugn
Member
Ehhh I agree that utility weapons have a lot to do with it, but there are other elements like sprinting, AA's, classes and perks that would be fun (but not highly competitive) with more players on bigger maps that make me think distinct balancing would be better.
Halo survived Invasion, and CoD has had Hardcore for years now, so I don't think having a more specialized Big Team mode (or Arena FPS mode) would be bad, especially if they cut down on the non-mainstream playlists like Snipers, Swat, Action Sack, Flood, etc.
Yes, that stuff is really annoying, which is why it would behoove a developer to properly balance their sandbox from the get-go. The features of each mode should be balanced to support their chosen objective, but having weapons behave differently is a ridiculous proposition when there's a much more elegant solution readily available.
Because you don't want wildly inconsistent core experiences across primary game modes. The vast majority of players don't just exclusively play one playlist. They typically have one they play the most, but also like to pay others on occasion. You start making weapons act differently in different playlists and you're going to lose people. One of the things I hated as Reach and Halo 4 aged is that I never knew what the fuck I was getting when I went into a playlist. Weapons and features can be properly balanced to work in different styles of play.
You don't need to jump through all these imaginary hoops because the solution is simple; make the primary weapons harder to use. That will literally fix 90% of the problems with Halo right now.
Silly.Mikey
Banned
That Its not called Gears 4 i assume. I heard good things, havent played the full game tho. Beta/demo was fun.
Gets really boring REALLY fast.
Garrett 2U
Member
Launched with 4 competitive maps coupled with hugely changed multiplayer mechanics, turned a lot of fans off.
Many sections of campaign are literally Horde (straight up cut and paste), MP is a lot faster and feels worse.
aHebrewMenagerie
Member
Agreed. I think that balancing the multiplayer separately would fragment the community worse than the Halo: Reach vanilla vs TU scandal
I don't think you are understanding me. My point is that if you break the two, vastly different game experiences in two, clearly discernable games, there is no issue with what you're describing above, hence another benefit to it.
TS x Massacre
Member
Reasons they can't separate one Halo into two games successfully:
The TU at the end-ish of Reach tried this and turned both crowds off in certain aspects.
Yep.^^
Halo 4 tries to do TOO much in it's multiplayer. I think adding the BR and the DMR was a poor choice, should've just stuck with BR, then you don't have to worry about as many BTB implications.
Either way, as the old adage goes "Keep it simple, stupid" really pertains here. I miss the Halo 2 era so much it's ridiculous, my buddy and I were just talking about it this morning. Halo 2's core gameplay allowed people to enjoy all these modes without being broken.
Halo 3 built on the formula, it's net code was pretty bad, but it kept the formula and added features, equipment was meh, but wasn't game-breaking and it was the golden age for MLG Halo.
Things in my opinion that led to downfall of Halo:
Replacing weapons on map system with loadout/ordnance systems in Reach and 4.
Map design was for the most part mediocre after Halo 2 (Sprint/Jetpack compounded this problem)
Join-in progress/Loss of in-game visible ranks
Other's like these that have been re-iterated over and over and over again.
In this case, they should just release two separate games. Gandhi(Ex-MLG Pro in H2/H3) was saying that if they want to go after the CoD/Battlefield experience they should have a multiplayer only game that focuses solely on the Halo Marines, and still release Halo 5 as a separate game with single player and multiplayer that has the core Halo experience that's been missing for 6+ years now.
The TU at the end-ish of Reach tried this and turned both crowds off in certain aspects.
Yep.^^
Halo 4 tries to do TOO much in it's multiplayer. I think adding the BR and the DMR was a poor choice, should've just stuck with BR, then you don't have to worry about as many BTB implications.
Either way, as the old adage goes "Keep it simple, stupid" really pertains here. I miss the Halo 2 era so much it's ridiculous, my buddy and I were just talking about it this morning. Halo 2's core gameplay allowed people to enjoy all these modes without being broken.
Halo 3 built on the formula, it's net code was pretty bad, but it kept the formula and added features, equipment was meh, but wasn't game-breaking and it was the golden age for MLG Halo.
Things in my opinion that led to downfall of Halo:
Replacing weapons on map system with loadout/ordnance systems in Reach and 4.
Map design was for the most part mediocre after Halo 2 (Sprint/Jetpack compounded this problem)
Join-in progress/Loss of in-game visible ranks
Other's like these that have been re-iterated over and over and over again.
In this case, they should just release two separate games. Gandhi(Ex-MLG Pro in H2/H3) was saying that if they want to go after the CoD/Battlefield experience they should have a multiplayer only game that focuses solely on the Halo Marines, and still release Halo 5 as a separate game with single player and multiplayer that has the core Halo experience that's been missing for 6+ years now.
But that's just the thing, why should Halo go after those other experiences? If you want to play Battlefield, play Battlefield. If you want to play Halo, play Halo.
That's precisely the problem with Halo right now. It's a shell of the game it used to be. Just look at what Infinity Team Slayer was at Halo 4 launch. Loadouts, global ordnance, instant respawns, killcams, perks and armor abilities, no X on death, etc.
Halo 4 was a jack of all trades, master of none. They never captured the CoD crowd they wanted because how could it? And instead it also turned off decade long fans of the series.
That's precisely the problem with Halo right now. It's a shell of the game it used to be. Just look at what Infinity Team Slayer was at Halo 4 launch. Loadouts, global ordnance, instant respawns, killcams, perks and armor abilities, no X on death, etc.
Halo 4 was a jack of all trades, master of none. They never captured the CoD crowd they wanted because how could it? And instead it also turned off decade long fans of the series.
TS x Massacre
Member
I completely agree with this, I think they should focus on their niche as Halo. Trying to imitate will not take fans from other games and WILL lose fans of their game, it makes no sense to me.
I completely forgot about instant respawns, they literally changed just about everything about Halo from Halo 2/3. Also forgot about no knocking out of scope, jesus christ this was a disaster.
Correct, they should just focus on making a HALO game. And stop with this change for the sake of change formula.
Other than the fact that the duplication would waste resources that would be better served on making one game. But in a make-believe world where developers have unlimited resources it could work, although I still wouldn't want that. I enjoy both sides of the spectrum in Halo, casual and competitive. I would hate to be forced into playing two different games to enjoy that.
Silly.Mikey
Banned
But Halo has also always done "variety" well. The problem recently is that they keep fragmenting the community. Separating TUs or Infinity and Non Infinity is what 343 do badly. They go into building a game with a vision but change the vision halfway through the first year. They need a Jason Jones.
TS x Massacre
Member
Yes they do, Halo has been bi-polar since Mid-Reach.
So I'm way behind on news because I stopped caring about Halo for an extended period of time for the first time in 12 years since like May until this week, but getting the guy who designed and worked on SC2's matchmaking/ladder system is a big hire for 343i. Gotta give them props for that. Maybe it'll mean 343 will realize that once ranks went away why the population declined (obviously CoD4 came out before Reach launched, but still the same concept applies).
aHebrewMenagerie
Member
https://twitter.com/VG_Carl/status/388454989632245760VG_Carl said:
K. Guess I'll GTFO then.
I know he's Virgin Gaming, not 343, but the level of arrogance to tweet something like this, it's like the #DealWithIt controversy, but at Halo's level.
Poker Face
Member
most people already got the fuck out, so i'm not sure what the point of his tweet is...
Orochinagis
Member
I think I am going to PS4 since COD will have dedis in both consoles and my friends will move to that console and say goodbye to haloes till november but I doubt to buy another nextgen console.
US only?
US only?
lybertyboy
Thinks the Evil Empire is just misunderstood.
Should go without saying, but...that tweet in no way represents 343.
I love all teh Haloz.
I love all teh Haloz.
ElzarTheBam
Member
Lol
Is there any chance we could find out about what happened with the Halo 3 playlist update? I think most of the frustration comes from how the way the information has been communicated, I think getting a clear explanation straight from the source would help everyone understand why e're finding out about this stuff the awkward way we are.
NobleGundam
Banned
"Not enough time & resources cuz Haloz 5"Is there any chance we could find out about what happened with the Halo 3 playlist update? I think most of the frustration comes from how the way the information has been communicated, I think getting a clear explanation straight from the source would help everyone understand why e're finding out about this stuff the awkward way we are.
So... you're saying we should overreact?
I don't think having a more large-scale objective Halo game would be inherently anticompetitive, any more than making that game would somehow say "forget you casuals, if you like 4v4 tough because you won't enjoy this game." A competitive community gets fostered on the game's own terms, in addition to its suitability compared to other games around it.
As for resources, I'd like to think that 343 has gone through enough upheaval in its creation that they could, assuming Microsoft would let it happen, develop two games in a staggered rotation, especially if they largely treated the Battlefront Halo as an expansion and extension of the regular more arena-styled game. Even Microsoft I think realizes that throwing more people at a problem has its limits as a problem-solving tool. Then again we might be treading into discussions that have less to do with 343 and more to do with the whole state of AAA development in the industry and how baroque it's gotten.
I think overall, as much respect as I have for the work Saber, CA and others have done, I think it's better for Halo to be done by a single dev, and that includes some of the misc. offshoot projects. Partly because this ensures a higher level of creative control, partly because it slows down the game releases.
lybertyboy
Thinks the Evil Empire is just misunderstood.
Is there any chance we could find out about what happened with the Halo 3 playlist update? I think most of the frustration comes from how the way the information has been communicated, I think getting a clear explanation straight from the source would help everyone understand why e're finding out about this stuff the awkward way we are.
I can't speak for the current sustain team, but we investigated doing a playlist consolidation for Halo 3 during my tenure on the team. There were technical concerns about taking up the task due to a variety of issues. Unfortunately I really can't be more specific than that. Additionally, and I hit on this a couple days ago, it can be a tough sell to allocate the amount of test resources you need to do a proper pass on a playlist deliverable. Even with a mere consolidation you need to do a test pass before pushing it out into the wild.
I would guess the team looked at the time available to get an update out before Halo 3 went free and after balancing that against the technical concerns (which are likely more concerning today than 2 years ago) and decided it was best for the entire Halo player population across all games to keep Halo 3 as is.
that bad huh?
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
heckFUNK. Halo 5. 2014. Our first games together.
Can you go more into what it takes for it to pass? What's that process like? Who signs off on it, etc.
K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
COD Ghosts is looking better and better, and honestly sounds like the best PS4 launch FPS. It's the first COD I've ever considered buying! LTTP: COD (LOL).
Rather have H2 Anniversary
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