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[ncsuDuncan]

This is not how I was hoping Destiny would be revealed. Activision, I am disappoint.

I'm sure the Bungie crew are frustrated, I would be too.

Exciting stuff though.

 

[789shadow]

Bungie's next game revealed by Judge Judy.

Also, I'm sitting here with my TV supported by styrofoam because I'm terrified I'm going to strip the screws that attach it to the base.

 

[feel]

How is a leak? It's public knowledge because of Ol' Infinity Wards suit.

Sorry, I feel very out of the loop, I just know something Bungie related surfaced that Bungie didn't intend for it to, will do some proper reading on all of this when I get home.

 

[FyreWulff]

I distinctly remember articles from around Halo:CE's release mentioning this (harsher rating due to being able to kill other humans), although, that was a long time ago.

I honestly thought it would have been Cortana, but I've heard them say it was the Flood more recently.

Halo Wars is a T, has human vs humans combat (insurgents in multiplayer), has the flood, but it's AI has clothes on. But the camera is also farther away from the action.

 

[Summary Man]

Holy shit so it's real? I wasn't paying much attention because I was thinking that leak was bullshit.

Someone post a summary of what was leaked, or point me in the right direction.

This thread is a good place to start. It has a short recap in the OP of what most of the "leak" encapsulates.

Apologies if you've already checked out that thread.

 

[blamite]

I don't understand why the contract was released in the first place. How is this related to the Infinity Ward suit? Did Activision just get ordered to release any information of any snd all deals going on that might effect the IW situation?

 

[Homeboyd]

http://www.bungie.net/news/content.aspx?type=news&cid=32112

Damn, that really sucks.

Wonder if he meant they'll show us the game in 2013 (for the first time) or was just referring to the game will be ready in 2013. Was really hoping for some kind of news at this year's E3.

 

[Slightly Live]

Marty O'Donnell
‏@MartyTheElder
Yes it's true. Bungie's next big thing is a game. I can't confirm this but I might be writing music for it.

heh

 

[kylej]

What is the first step though?

Current developers have no muscle to enact change because they're easily replaceable for the most part. Their replacements are churned through shoddy programs because they don't know any better because there's no proper education.

They do have muscle to enact change. Newly employed/replacements in the industry aren't invalids. Trying to educate prospective employees is a noble goal, but as I've stated, the most efficient way to move the industry forward is to have someone in power lobby on behalf of the industry. What happens if someone like Ken Levine comes out and tries to promote the idea of a union? Is he going to get fired? Is Gabe Newell going to be blacklisted from the industry for speaking out? Will John Carmack be mocked if he fights for employee benefits? I don't see the equivalent of the Triangle Shirtwaist fire happening, I see a worker's rights sentiment starting from the "top", and spreading vertically down until it becomes an accepted ideology of the masses.

 

[Fuchsdh]

I honestly thought it would have been Cortana, but I've heard them say it was the Flood more recently.

Halo Wars is a T, has human vs humans combat (insurgents in multiplayer), has the flood, but it's AI has clothes on. But the camera is also farther away from the action.

Cortana was pretty close to androgynous in CE, all things considered. I've seen the Flood more often used, as you mention.

StarCraft II had way more "scary" stuff going on, including cinematics and the ability to zoom in on the gore, but it's still got a T rating.

I think it's mostly a defense mechanism by the ESRB to head off the "shooters make you shoot people for real" line of thinking. Thus far no one's supposedly gone on a killing spree after raging at an Idra SCII match.

 

[Plywood]

So Activision was banking on Bungie doing well with Reach to judge whether to continue with the deal? Interesting.

What I got was "this game better come out in 2010" and Bungie was all "lets share assets with Campaign and MP so that it does."

 

[Retro]

They do have muscle to enact change. Newly employed/replacements in the industry aren't invalids.

No, but they probably haven't had the rose-tinted glasses stripped away yet either. I'm sure the guys who join up at companies like EA, Activision or 38 studios think they're living the dream, making videogames. Then crunch hits, or their project is cancelled, or upper management fucks up or makes a shit decision and it all comes apart.

I don't think they're stupid. Naive at worst, optimistic at best. But no, you can't follow the games industry to any degree and think it's wonderland. But I bet most of them don't think it will happen to them.

as I've stated, the most efficient way to move the industry forward is to have someone in power lobby on behalf of the industry. . . I don't see the equivalent of the Triangle Shirtwaist fire happening, I see a worker's rights sentiment starting from the "top", and spreading vertically down until it becomes an accepted ideology of the masses.

Without offense to any of those parties, I don't see them standing up to enact change when they're benefiting from the current model. It's still working now, and it's still making Valve, id, Irrational, etc. very rich. I'm also not saying that all game companies work the same way, and I'm sure a lot of them are great places to work... but industry wide, workers rights (especially creative rights) are pretty dismal.

 

[Tunavi]

Holy shit so it's real? I wasn't paying much attention because I was thinking that leak was bullshit.

Someone post a summary of what was leaked, or point me in the right direction.

Its a legal document. Cmon son.

 

[kylej]

Without offense to any of those parties, I don't see them standing up to enact change when they're benefiting from the current model. It's still working now, and it's still making Valve, id, Irrational, etc. very rich. I'm also not saying that all game companies work the same way, and I'm sure a lot of them are great places to work... but industry wide, workers rights (especially creative rights) are pretty dismal.

Ok I didn't mean those would actually be the people who would enact change but hypothetically those types of people would be the disruptors. Anyway I feel like I'm talking in circles (HaloGAF is a very literal place) so I'll stop derailing this thread.

 

[Retro]

Ok I didn't mean those would actually be the people who would enact change but hypothetically those types of people would be the disruptors. Anyway I feel like I'm talking in circles (HaloGAF is a very literal place) so I'll stop derailing this thread.

Yeah, I was going to suggest taking this to PMs anyways.

I'm not being argumentative (this feels more like a friendly discussion than anything), and in all honesty if somebody substantial stood up and made the case as you're suggestion, that would solve a ton of problems, or at least make the problem visible and give people someone to rally around.

I just don't think it's going to happen without some major scandal or crisis in the industry. Maybe the 38 studios thing will do the trick. Maybe more details will come out of the Activision suit that will shed some light on the ugly business practices. If "Icebreaker" doesn't turn a few heads though, I don't know what will. That, to me at least, seems like it should do the trick.

Anyways, yeah, let's stop derailing the thread. If you decide to PM about it, awesome, if not, no big deal.

 

[Blueblur1]

What I got was "this game better come out in 2010" and Bungie was all "lets share assets with Campaign and MP so that it does."

Gotta love Reach! But seriously, Bungie's gonna have to come out guns blazing to get me to care after Reach.

 

[feel]

This thread is a good place to start. It has a short recap in the OP of what most of the "leak" encapsulates.

Apologies if you've already checked out that thread.

Just got home, will head to that thread, seems exactly what I was looking for, thanks

Its a legal document. Cmon son.

Sorry, I feel very out of the loop, I just know something Bungie related surfaced that Bungie didn't intend for it to, will do some proper reading on all of this when I get home.

.

 

[GhaleonEB]

What I got was "this game better come out in 2010" and Bungie was all "lets share assets with Campaign and MP so that it does."

To be fair, the entire design document and development roadmap needs to be built with the targeted release date in mind, from the word go. Though in this case, Bungie had even more riding on the release than their then publisher's terms; they had that, and their future project, upon which the fate of the studio depended. No pressure!

I see the consequences of that pressure in decisions made late in development - such as merging five play spaces into one skybox and raiding Boneyard for an Invasion map.

 

[DMeisterJ]

What I got was "this game better come out in 2010" and Bungie was all "lets share assets with Campaign and MP so that it does."

http://i.imgur.com/GZOwg.jpg[IMG]

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/FFqqO.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]

I'll file this under 'shit that makes you go hmmmm'. It really does make you think though.

 

[ProXimity]

Reach and Halo 3 were adopted.

 

[cuevas. PhD.]

This sucks for bungie.

 

[Plywood]

To be fair, the entire design document and development roadmap needs to be built with the targeted release date in mind, from the word go. Though in this case, Bungie had even more riding on the release than their then publisher's terms; they had that, and their future project, upon which the fate of the studio depended. No pressure!

I see the consequences of that pressure in decisions made late in development - such as merging five play spaces into one skybox and raiding Boneyard for an Invasion map.

So what you're saying is they planned from the go to get Reach out of the way so they could work on Destiny.

 

[cuevas. PhD.]

So what you're saying is they planned from the go to get Reach out of the way so they could work on Destiny.

Hmm...no. It was 3 years and it was gunna be due anyways.

 

[789shadow]

I'm sitting too far away from my TV, I think.

 

[GhaleonEB]

So what you're saying is they planned from the go to get Reach out of the way so they could work on Destiny.

Sort of. They had signed contract in hand for Destiny well before Reach shipped, and that certainly added to the pressure to hit their ship date. Missing the ship date was not an option. At the same time, they gave Reach a full three year cycle. It wasn't shafted. Remember, Destiny had its fate tied to: 1) quality metrics with Reach, 2) release date, and 3) sales targets.

I think design decisions such as integrating campaign and MP spaces were made very early in development. That decision might have been made with easing development along - certainly Reach's team was only a fraction of Bungie (albeit a large one). But I think decisions made later in development are more indicative of that pressure than ones made early on.


VVV

Okay. I get it. I have to say I hate it when actual conversation degenerates into this. :\

 

[Plywood]

Hmm...no. It was 3 years and it was gunna be due anyways.

Well, yeah. They had signed contract in hand for Destiny well before Reach shipped, and that certainly added to the pressure to hit their ship date. Missing the ship date was not an option.

I think design decisions such as integrating campaign and MP spaces were made very early in development. That decision might have been made with easing development along - certainly Reach's team was only a fraction of Bungie (albeit a large one). But I think decisions made later in development are more indicative of that pressure than ones made early on.

Reach = cutting room Destiny assets

 

[FyreWulff]

What I got was "this game better come out in 2010" and Bungie was all "lets share assets with Campaign and MP so that it does."

Well, except for the fact that Lehto said they did it because he was tired of multiplayer's art being not up to the bar of the campaign art, so he thought maybe if they multi-purposed the spaces for campaign spots, they'd be able to have multiplayer look more coherent to the rest of the game by basically having the artists give more TLC to the multiplayer maps.

He also later said that this resulted in taking just as much time as the separate maps, so not really a gain for meeting launch, and whatever map Boneyard replaced was cut because it's campaign space went away, and Bungie has a new policy since Halo 3 of absolutely removing any references to cut spaces that they can, with the lone exception being Guardian because it was too far along.

 

[Ryaaan14]

Here's a terrible podcast I agreed to be a guest on a couple nights ago. It was absolutely awful. Starts with me candidly talking about my bowels, into Halo stuff, and then an hour of terrible derailed conversation.

Good listening if you like trainwrecks though. If you are crazy enough make it to the end I give HaloGAF a shoutout since I refuse to link anyone else to this show.

 

[Plywood]

Well, except for the fact that Lehto said they did it because he was tired of multiplayer's art being not up to the bar of the campaign art, so he thought maybe if they multi-purposed the spaces for campaign spots, they'd be able to have multiplayer look more coherent to the rest of the game by basically having the artists give more TLC to the multiplayer maps.

He also later said that this resulted in taking just as much time as the separate maps, so not really a gain for meeting launch, and whatever map Boneyard replaced was cut because it's campaign space went away, and Bungie has a new policy since Halo 3 of absolutely removing any references to cut spaces that they can, with the lone exception being Guardian because it was too far along.

Interesting.

 

[Tawpgun]

Well, except for the fact that Lehto said they did it because he was tired of multiplayer's art being not up to the bar of the campaign art, so he thought maybe if they multi-purposed the spaces for campaign spots, they'd be able to have multiplayer look more coherent to the rest of the game by basically having the artists give more TLC to the multiplayer maps.

He also later said that this resulted in taking just as much time as the separate maps, so not really a gain for meeting launch, and whatever map Boneyard replaced was cut because it's campaign space went away, and Bungie has a new policy since Halo 3 of absolutely removing any references to cut spaces that they can, with the lone exception being Guardian because it was too far along.

That's what happens when a former Art guy is leading the game. Lehto is awesome, but someone else should have had his job for Reach.

And imagine if Guardian was cut. Goddamn...

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Well, except for the fact that Lehto said they did it because he was tired of multiplayer's art being not up to the bar of the campaign art, so he thought maybe if they multi-purposed the spaces for campaign spots, they'd be able to have multiplayer look more coherent to the rest of the game by basically having the artists give more TLC to the multiplayer maps.

He also later said that this resulted in taking just as much time as the separate maps, so not really a gain for meeting launch, and whatever map Boneyard replaced was cut because it's campaign space went away, and Bungie has a new policy since Halo 3 of absolutely removing any references to cut spaces that they can, with the lone exception being Guardian because it was too far along.

Fascinating, FyreWulff

 

[Fracas]

Well, except for the fact that Lehto said they did it because he was tired of multiplayer's art being not up to the bar of the campaign art, so he thought maybe if they multi-purposed the spaces for campaign spots, they'd be able to have multiplayer look more coherent to the rest of the game by basically having the artists give more TLC to the multiplayer maps.

He also later said that this resulted in taking just as much time as the separate maps, so not really a gain for meeting launch, and whatever map Boneyard replaced was cut because it's campaign space went away, and Bungie has a new policy since Halo 3 of absolutely removing any references to cut spaces that they can, with the lone exception being Guardian because it was too far along.

Huh, that's really interesting.

Spoiler

tell me more stories mang

 

[FyreWulff]

That's what happens when a former Art guy is leading the game. Lehto is awesome, but someone else should have had his job for Reach.

And imagine if Guardian was cut. Goddamn...

Well, you have to see what happened before:

Halo 1: Multiplayer levels were done by two guys figuring out the 'extrude' tool two months away from release

Halo 2: More art contribution, but the disc maps have obvious asset-reuse, and not very detailed. The DLC looked awesome, though, since they were able to put their full artist team on them. Even the lighting and skyboxes in the later DLC were better.

Halo 3: Disc maps look nice, DLC looks great. So just like 2, it was obvious that the DLC maps were 'later'.

To me, Reach feels like the disc maps are on par with later DLC. The downside to the multi-artist-drifting process though, is some more experimental or not-as-strong-but-loveable maps might have been left on the cutting room floor, as they had to be MUCH stronger to justify the artists' time. We wouldn't have gotten something like Construct from a Reach-style map design process.

Although it's funny now to watch the ODST panel at PAX before it came out, and they're talking about how the Mythic maps appeared as part of ODST's campaign at one point in early designs, with the only vestige of that being Orbital in the bonus ending.

ps if I were to guess, Not Boneyard was either in the destroyed Alexandria location that was cut, or perhaps was an Invasion map that used the boats that Lehto wanted to get working. If you had boats and Invasion, what developer WOULDN'T have a beach landing scenario?

 

[OverHeat]

What I got was "this game better come out in 2010" and Bungie was all "lets share assets with Campaign and MP so that it does."

If this is the reason for the weak map in reach... FU Bungie.

Just saw FyreWulff post my bad. Still the map in reach sucks compare to H3.

 

[Fracas]

Somehow missed the news about Bungie's new IP.

Really hoping Activision treats these guys right

edit: Also, happy birthday Gabotron!
I think I'm the youngest here, too. Turned 18 in January.

 

[Tunavi]

Well, except for the fact that Lehto said they did it because he was tired of multiplayer's art being not up to the bar of the campaign art, so he thought maybe if they multi-purposed the spaces for campaign spots, they'd be able to have multiplayer look more coherent to the rest of the game by basically having the artists give more TLC to the multiplayer maps.

He also later said that this resulted in taking just as much time as the separate maps, so not really a gain for meeting launch, and whatever map Boneyard replaced was cut because it's campaign space went away, and Bungie has a new policy since Halo 3 of absolutely removing any references to cut spaces that they can, with the lone exception being Guardian because it was too far along.

Kylejfacinating.rtf

 

[Fracas]

Welp

 

[op_ivy]

go trueskill.

just got matched with a guy who apparently is playing his first game ever (career 0 kills 0 deaths) and another guy with a whopping career 70 kills and 120 deaths AND HIS GUEST. can you guess how this game went

EDIT: followed by a match against 4 forerunners. swell night.

EDIT2: quit out at 2 to 12, with my 2 being our only kills. FUCK REACH TRUESKILL

 

[Biggest-Geek-Ever]

Kylejfacinating.rtf

Fasc

Spoiler

inception

inating

 

[Fracas]

go trueskill.

just got matched with a guy who apparently is playing his first game ever (career 0 kills 0 deaths) and another guy with a whopping career 70 kills and 120 deaths AND HIS GUEST. can you guess how this game went

EDIT: followed by a match against 4 forerunners. swell night.

EDIT2: quit out at 2 to 12, with my 2 being our only kills. FUCK REACH TRUESKILL

Ahhhhhhhhhhh
Hurry up, E3!

 

[FyreWulff]

Fasc

Spoiler

inception

inating

themoreyouknow.gif

Spoiler

.map

 

[op_ivy]

Ahhhhhhhhhhh
Hurry up, E3!

i have seriously never had such an urge to break something. i'm raging. hard.

 

[FyreWulff]

i have seriously never had such an urge to break something. i'm raging. hard.

Wait until you see the Nintendo fans react to the Nintendo conference

HULK SMASH

 

[Steelyuhas]

Well, you have to see what happened before:

Halo 1: Multiplayer levels were done by two guys figuring out the 'extrude' tool two months away from release

Halo 2: More art contribution, but the disc maps have obvious asset-reuse, and not very detailed. The DLC looked awesome, though, since they were able to put their full artist team on them. Even the lighting and skyboxes in the later DLC were better.

Halo 3: Disc maps look nice, DLC looks great. So just like 2, it was obvious that the DLC maps were 'later'.

To me, Reach feels like the disc maps are on par with later DLC. The downside to the multi-artist-drifting process though, is some more experimental or not-as-strong-but-loveable maps might have been left on the cutting room floor, as they had to be MUCH stronger to justify the artists' time. We wouldn't have gotten something like Construct from a Reach-style map design process.

Although it's funny now to watch the ODST panel at PAX before it came out, and they're talking about how the Mythic maps appeared as part of ODST's campaign at one point in early designs, with the only vestige of that being Orbital in the bonus ending.

ps if I were to guess, Not Boneyard was either in the destroyed Alexandria location that was cut, or perhaps was an Invasion map that used the boats that Lehto wanted to get working. If you had boats and Invasion, what developer WOULDN'T have a beach landing scenario?

I'd say the Reach DLC is a step up in art just like DLC of the others games, although I understand the point you're trying to make.

What is this about Alexandria location that was cut? From New Alexandria, cause that would be dope?

I can't believe that with the little amount of maps we got that Reflection was actually almost cut as well.

Marcus admitted that if he did it over again, he wouldn't have done the maps being in campaign, although I can see why he wanted to do it in the first place. Unknown to Bungie employees at the time (obviously), but I'm sure it was a significant factor in the lack of quality maps and decent number of maps in Reach.

 

[FyreWulff]

I'd say the Reach DLC is a step up in art just like DLC of the others games, although I understand the point you're trying to make.

What is this about Alexandria location that was cut? From New Alexandria, cause that would be dope?

I can't believe that with the little amount of maps we got that Reflection was actually almost cut as well.

Marcus admitted that if he did it over again, he wouldn't have done the maps being in campaign, although I can see why he wanted to do it in the first place. Unknown to Bungie employees at the time (obviously), but I'm sure it was a significant factor in the lack of quality maps and decent number of maps in Reach.

There was a level they wanted where you piloted a Scarab through the destroyed city. It took place right after Kat gets shot. Been mentioned a couple of times in interviews.

 

[Steelyuhas]

There was a level they wanted where you piloted a Scarab through the destroyed city. It took place right after Kat gets shot. Been mentioned a couple of times in interviews.

Aye, right I remember that. I didn't know that a multiplayer level came from their though. Confirmed multiplayer levels we have are the Invasion level that Boneyard replaced and "Blockout" right? Any others?

 

[Krispy]

Destiny avvy for someone.

 

[CyReN]

Destiny avvy for someone.

I can't be the only one that see a sports cup am I?

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Wait until you see the Nintendo fans react to the Nintendo conference

HULK SMASH

Oh, no. It has to be amazing this year. Nintendo has to bring THE GOODS.

There will be hype. There will be bans. There will be E3.

Thirteen sleeps

 

[Ryaaan14]

I can't be the only one that see a sports cup am I?

Well fuck.