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Halo |OT4| Trust's a Tough Thing to Come by These Days

S

StalkerUKCG

Banned
Deputy Moonman said:
Posting favorite maps is fun!

Halo:CE: Chill Out, Damnation, Hang'Em High
Halo2: Colossus, Lockout, Headlong, Warlock
Halo3: Standoff, Rat's Nest, Citadel, Construct
Halo Reach: Sword Base
haha yes
, Countdown, Kingdom
Click to expand...


Halo:CE: Sidewinder
Halo2: Midship, Lockout, Coagulation, Foundation, Warlock, Tombstone
Sanctuary, Turf
Halo3: Standoff, Valhalla, Guardian, The Pit, Snowbound, Avalanche, Last Resort
Halo Reach: Boneyard, Powerhouse, Countdown, Reflection.
 
S

senador

Banned
kylej said:
I work in a very boutique commercial finance firm and help underwrite, build backends, and deal with clients on varying types of multimillion dollar transactions every day, and I have a degree in Political Science. I'm no Einstein, but I'm not ignorant on societal change and business.
Click to expand...

Which is why some of your comments on this and other things catch me by surprise a lot or make me think "WTF", because I know how smart you actually are
or pretend to be :p
.

Perhaps its just how you word things. Maybe its because you are short on time, or just want to state simple opinion without delving into the thick of it. I agree with you, shit is messed up and shit needs to change. Its just hella complicated, and progress would be slow. Part of it is that the current state of the games industry is still young, and many don't realize what its like til they get into it for a while, and nearly everyone looking in has NO idea what its like. Experienced devs hop around and wind up at places that treat them well, while the new ones will eat shit just to work with hopes of changing things or hopping they look good, etc.

Anyway, yeah. I'm not defending the industry. I'm bitter towards companies, and poor treatment in general.
 
S

StalkerUKCG

Banned
87011_zVzlz.jpg
Click to expand...

WOW
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
This whole things sucks for Bungie, but it's left me even more excited for Destiny than before. So there's that. What a nightmare for Urk and company, having their contract out there, though.
 
R

Retro

Member
kylej said:
The problem is this only works for so long. It's not like the games industry is a unique snowflake, cutting costs by dropping higher paid workers and sacrificing long term viability for the immediate bottom line is Reaganomics 101. There's something morbidly futile about individuals killing themselves to produce a game of high enough quality that they'll get a 90 on Metacritic, while knowing that type of rating gives the franchise enough clout to guarantee two quick sequels made by a staff of cheaper employees and harsher conditions.
Click to expand...

We agree on the boldface bit, more than anything. I was writing e-mails and making forum posts years ago to see if there was any support for the IGDA to make a real push for educational materials on the industry at the middle and high-school level. The idea is, it would be targeted at guidance counselors primarily but also for parents and prospective students, to try and educate them on what the games industry is really like and what kind of careers are available.

If your average kid right now says he wants to get into the games industry, he has absolutely zero resources. His counselors don't follow the industry, what the fuck will they know? All these guys see growing up is the appearance of rockstar game designers like Miyamoto, Jaffe and Frankie (luv u) when there's literally hundreds of guys making things happen behind them. And they walk away with the wrong impression.

You end up with a ton of misinformed kids who want their foot in the door at any cost, willing to work for peanuts to be part of the magic. By the time they figure out reality, there's another class of kids ready to step in. Until somebody provides a resource that establishes realistic expectations.

After all, we can't just keep sending kids to Tom Sloper's website. He's right on the money but too abrasive, I've seen too many kids read it and go "NUH UH, YOU'LL SEE".
 
D

Domino Theory

Crystal Dynamics
GhaleonEB said:
This whole things sucks for Bungie, but it's left me even more excited for Destiny than before. So there's that. What a nightmare for Urk and company, having their contract out there, though.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I feel the same. I feel bad for them, but at the same time, I can't get Bungie off my mind (in a good way) and I haven't thought about them ever since the Noble Map Pack.
 
S

Slightly Live

Dirty tag dodger
GhaleonEB said:
This whole things sucks for Bungie, but it's left me even more excited for Destiny than before. So there's that. What a nightmare for Urk and company, having their contract out there, though.
Click to expand...

The bad side of spoilers is bad. =/

Although plans change and develop, today's court documents have pretty much ruined many announcements and such. Never mind having all that private information in public is a boon for their competitors.

Spoilers are meant to be cheeky and fun but today's stuff wasn't really fun.
 
X

xxjuicesxx

Member
kylej said:
I work in a very boutique commercial finance firm and help underwrite, build backends, and deal with clients on varying types of multimillion dollar transactions every day, and I have a degree in Political Science. I'm no Einstein, but I'm not ignorant on societal change and business.
Click to expand...

Aren't you Gold in Arena?
 
F

FyreWulff

Member
GhaleonEB said:
This whole things sucks for Bungie, but it's left me even more excited for Destiny than before. So there's that. What a nightmare for Urk and company, having their contract out there, though.
Click to expand...

Yup, it's pretty shit for them right now. All their DLC plans and releasing plans are no longer a surprise. People will be expecting DLC at certain times, etc.

Just seems kind of poopy after they went so perfectly dark for so long then an unrelated court case ruins all of it. And of course everyone misreading the contract as it sits out there.
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
Domino Theory said:
Yeah, I feel the same. I feel bad for them, but at the same time, I can't get Bungie off my mind (in a good way) and I haven't thought about them ever since the Noble Map Pack.
Click to expand...

Really? Not been following the developments with Destiny? Halo 4's impending release has overshadowed it, but I'm incredibly excited about what Bungie's been up to. But then my love for those guys went well beyond Halo.

I keep thinking about how terrible it is that 1) Bungie has bonus levels tied to critical score thresholds and 2) how those thresholds are public. Talk about exactly the kind of information you do NOT want reviewers having on hand when they score your game.

The requirement is utterly fucked up, but at least they had the good sense to go with Gamerankings (holistic, fair) over Metacritic (bullshit).
Slightly Live said:
The bad side of spoilers is bad. =/

Although plans change and develop, today's court documents have pretty much ruined many announcements and such. Never mind having all that private information in public is a boon for their competitors.

Spoilers are meant to be cheeky and fun but today's stuff wasn't really fun.
Click to expand...
FyreWulff said:
Yup, it's pretty shit for them right now. All their DLC plans and releasing plans are no longer a surprise. People will be expecting DLC at certain times, etc.

Just seems kind of poopy after they went so perfectly dark for so long then an unrelated court case ruins all of it. And of course everyone misreading the contract as it sits out there.
Click to expand...

Agree. It's everything a developer and publisher does not want out in the public.
 
S

senador

Banned
Slightly Live said:
The bad side of spoilers is bad. =/

Although plans change and develop, today's court documents have pretty much ruined many announcements and such. Never mind having all that private information in public is a boon for their competitors.

Spoilers are meant to be cheeky and fun but today's stuff wasn't really fun.
Click to expand...

Agreed. It super sucks that had to be revealed and they had nothing to do with the actual incident or whatever. I don't understand, why'd it have to be revealed anyway, and made public too?

Regardless, I'm stoked for the game(s) and schedule. Can't wait to learn more officially.
 
D

Domino Theory

Crystal Dynamics
HigherLevel said:
Yeah I'm hyped to know we'll be hearing something soon. Hopefully it's during Microsoft's E3 conference.
Click to expand...

Considering Microsoft's infatuation with Kinect this late into the 360's life, I'd say Destiny timed-exclusive was their big announcement aside from showing Halo 4.

I want to be proven wrong, but then again I've been saying that about Microsoft's conferences since '07.
 
F

Fuchsdh

Member
What I don't get is why the hell did Bungie sign that Activision deal, then?

Considering their fierce independent streak and the fact that they got burned the last time they partnered with a publisher (hello Take-Two) I don't see why they would go for that.

I doubt they were loaded down with cash, since the Halo IP belongs with Microsoft, but those terms seem... dire. I would have imagined their "I made Halo" clout would have gone a lot further.

Here's hoping Bungie turns out okay.
 
T

Tashi

343i Lead Esports Producer
Fuchsdh said:
What I don't get is why the hell did Bungie sign that Activision deal, then?

Considering their fierce independent streak and the fact that they got burned the last time they partnered with a publisher (hello Take-Two) I don't see why they would go for that.

I doubt they were loaded down with cash, since the Halo IP belongs with Microsoft, but those terms seem... dire. I would have imagined their "I made Halo" clout would have gone a lot further.

Here's hoping Bungie turns out okay.
Click to expand...

I think they were looking for long term security.
 
F

FyreWulff

Member
Fuchsdh said:
What I don't get is why the hell did Bungie sign that Activision deal, then?

Considering their fierce independent streak and the fact that they got burned the last time they partnered with a publisher (hello Take-Two) I don't see why they would go for that.

I doubt they were loaded down with cash, since the Halo IP belongs with Microsoft, but those terms seem... dire. I would have imagined their "I made Halo" clout would have gone a lot further.

Here's hoping Bungie turns out okay.
Click to expand...

The contract writes out without a doubt that they own Destiny and Activision just has the exclusive license to publish it, and does not have a scenario in which they acquire the Destiny IP. That's still better than Take Two, who still holds onto Myth and Oni. They were never gonna keep Halo.
 
K

kylej

Banned
Retro said:
If your average kid right now says he wants to get into the games industry, he has absolutely zero resources. His counselors don't follow the industry, what the fuck will they know? All these guys see growing up is the appearance of rockstar game designers like Miyamoto, Jaffe and Frankie (luv u) when there's literally hundreds of guys making things happen behind them. And they walk away with the wrong impression.
Click to expand...

He does have resources, but as you've touched on they're the bullshit Game Degree(tm) courses that d-grade colleges offer to bring money in. Blowing smoke up people's asses and giving them delusions of grandeur through some superfluous program headed by a game industry flunkie just exacerbates the issues you've discussed. Exploitation is cyclical and exponential.

xxjuicesxx said:
Aren't you Gold in Arena?
Click to expand...

I would check Halo Waypoint to see, but I feel like Rip Van Winkle when I try to visit that site. When the page finally loads, I'm 130 years old with a long beard and nearing death.
 
S

Slightly Live

Dirty tag dodger
Fuchsdh said:
What I don't get is why the hell did Bungie sign that Activision deal, then?

Considering their fierce independent streak and the fact that they got burned the last time they partnered with a publisher (hello Take-Two) I don't see why they would go for that.

I doubt they were loaded down with cash, since the Halo IP belongs with Microsoft, but those terms seem... dire. I would have imagined their "I made Halo" clout would have gone a lot further.

Here's hoping Bungie turns out okay.
Click to expand...

Activision is fronting them hundreds of millions of dollars.

Just think about the actual costs involved. The language in the documents is the result of the silly amounts of money it takes to make games these days that Bungie want to make.
 
D

Domino Theory

Crystal Dynamics
Fuchsdh said:
What I don't get is why the hell did Bungie sign that Activision deal, then?

Considering their fierce independent streak and the fact that they got burned the last time they partnered with a publisher (hello Take-Two) I don't see why they would go for that.

I doubt they were loaded down with cash, since the Halo IP belongs with Microsoft, but those terms seem... dire. I would have imagined their "I made Halo" clout would have gone a lot further.

Here's hoping Bungie turns out okay.
Click to expand...

Bungie wanted universal rights to their new IP, but they needed the funding for it. Activision said "okay, but if X, Y, or Z happens, we're out" as a failsafe compromise.

I'm sure if Bungie had given in a little with regards to the IP itself to Activision then Activision would've cut some of those failsafes out.
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
Fuchsdh said:
What I don't get is why the hell did Bungie sign that Activision deal, then?

Considering their fierce independent streak and the fact that they got burned the last time they partnered with a publisher (hello Take-Two) I don't see why they would go for that.

I doubt they were loaded down with cash, since the Halo IP belongs with Microsoft, but those terms seem... dire. I would have imagined their "I made Halo" clout would have gone a lot further.

Here's hoping Bungie turns out okay.
Click to expand...

1) They wanted to own their IP and control their destiny (ha). You gotta trade a lot for that kind of power these days, which is very hard for developers to come by.

2) They had very ambitious plans for Destiny, and needed a large publisher to back them. They're a huge, very expensive studio to run and need as much certainty as possible that their game will get a high level of promotional and retail support. Activision provides that - but they need to make a return on their enormous investment.
 
D

Domino Theory

Crystal Dynamics
I wonder how many official reviewers are going to give higher scores knowing that that's what helps Bungie stay in business with Activision.

I have no doubts that Bungie's next game can stand on its own as an excellent new franchise to the gaming industry, but you have to wonder how many reviewers will have that thought in the back of their mind when playing the final build.
 
H

HigherLevel

Member
Domino Theory said:
Considering Microsoft's infatuation with Kinect this late into the 360's life, I'd say Destiny timed-exclusive was their big announcement aside from showing Halo 4.

I want to be proven wrong, but then again I've been saying that about Microsoft's conferences since '07.
Click to expand...

I'm sure you're probably right on this. All of the rumors popping up related to MS are about 720 games. I know recently we've heard about MGS Vancouver's new "AAA multiplayer shooter", Lionhead's new MMO like game, and Rare's multiple AAA games. I'm pretty much cool with nothing outside of Halo 4 and Destiny this year if those rumors I mentioned are true and the 720 releases next year.
 
O

op_ivy

Fallen Xbot (cannot continue gaining levels in this class)
sucks for bungie. marathon especially would have been such a huge fucking megaton if announced properly
 
T

Tashi

343i Lead Esports Producer
kylej said:
zero percent of them.
Click to expand...

Agreed. I think it will have the opposite effect for some.

This whole Metacritic thing sucked but now that we see it being used like this, it's fucking insane! I'm still in shock about that part. The whole situation is kinda scary. I think if Destiny is the game we all help it to be we can forget about all this bullshit.
 
R

Retro

Member
kylej said:
He does have resources, but as you've touched on they're the bullshit Game Degree(tm) courses that d-grade colleges offer to bring money in. Blowing smoke up people's asses and giving them delusions of grandeur through some superfluous program headed by a game industry flunkie just exacerbates the issues you've discussed. Exploitation is cyclical and exponential.
Click to expand...

Well, I meant before they start looking at college courses. I'm talking about 10-16 year olds who are just starting to ask questions about their future. It would be nice if there was a go-to resource for educators to go to so they can answers realistically. But instead, all kids get are their own fantasies and commercials like this fucking disgusting shit.

I mean, colleges are always going to want to get kids to give them their money, and if Junior wants to give them all of his tuition for a program they slapped together to cash in on the early stages of a fad, they're gonna do it. I just feel like there should be an effort from the IGDA (which is the closest thing to a 'union' the industry has now) to make sure the kids walking onto campus know when they're being fed bullshit.
 
K

kylej

Banned
Retro said:
Well, I meant before they start looking at college courses. I'm talking about 10-16 year olds who are just starting to ask questions about their future.
Click to expand...

One step at a time here. The video game industry will look like the Teamsters before 10-16 year olds think seriously about their future.
 
S

Slightly Live

Dirty tag dodger
op_ivy said:
sucks for bungie. marathon especially would have been such a huge fucking megaton if announced properly
Click to expand...

It still might not happen. It's a small project and it may even have been cancelled by now. Regardless, the court documents have robbed Marathons fans of a fantastic future surprise.
 
B

Brolic Gaoler

formerly Alienshogun
Domino Theory said:
I wonder how many official reviewers are going to give higher scores knowing that that's what helps Bungie stay in business with Activision.

I have no doubts that Bungie's next game can stand on its own as an excellent new franchise to the gaming industry, but you have to wonder how many reviewers will have that thought in the back of their mind when playing the final build.
Click to expand...

I have to wonder if there's a legal action they can take to have the contract amended now since outside influence is almost guaranteed now. (in regard to the metacritic thing).
 
H

Havok

Member
Fuchsdh said:
What I don't get is why the hell did Bungie sign that Activision deal, then?

Considering their fierce independent streak and the fact that they got burned the last time they partnered with a publisher (hello Take-Two) I don't see why they would go for that.

I doubt they were loaded down with cash, since the Halo IP belongs with Microsoft, but those terms seem... dire. I would have imagined their "I made Halo" clout would have gone a lot further.

Here's hoping Bungie turns out okay.
Click to expand...
They get Microsoft levels of money without Microsoft levels of corporate oversight. I doubt that Activision will be dictating how their eventual DLC will be used with regard to player matchmaking like Microsoft did (Cold Storage), and I doubt that Activision could force them to hold content hostage to make a retail product look more attractive.

They have control of that IP, and they knew the schedule they were getting into when they signed the contract, unlike their situation with Microsoft, which was "You guys are gonna make another Halo now, cool?" and they can plan things out much farther in advance. They wouldn't have signed the deal if it wasn't attractive to them--they aren't about to go under because of a Myth II recall this time around.
 
R

Retro

Member
kylej said:
One step at a time here. The video game industry will look like the Teamsters before 10-16 year olds think seriously about their future.
Click to expand...

Well, I meant the point at which they start thinking about what it is they want to do.

What is the first step though?

Current developers have no muscle to enact change because they're easily replaceable for the most part. Their replacements are churned through shoddy programs because they don't know any better because there's no proper education.

It seems to me that educating kids who are investigating careers in game development and pointing them towards the proper fields and away from scam-like game design programs is the best place to start.

It's going to take a slow change from the bottom up (unlikely) or some kind of industry-wide crash (likely) before things change. Fox almost had to go bankrupt churning out sword-and-sandal AAA epics to realize that formulaic studio-driven filmmaking doesn't work. The company only survived because the Sound of Music was a surprise hit. That kept them limping along until Star Wars. Lots of studios have similar stories.

And that's the games industry right now; AAA rehashes with strict creative control, churned out by studios with staff and stars under contract, with decisions made by the business side rather than the creative, leading to a risk-adverse, cannibalistic business model that is outwardly glamorous despite being completely closed to outsiders.
 
C

Computron

Member
Letters said:
Holy shit so it's real? I wasn't paying much attention because I was thinking that leak was bullshit.

Someone post a summary of what was leaked, or point me in the right direction.
Click to expand...

How is a leak? It's public knowledge because of Ol' Infinity Wards suit.
 
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