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[Shake Appeal]

Eazy where did you get top 40% for me? I don't even see an Arena division next to my name. I think I only got like 3 Daily Ratings total.

 

[Doodis]

Is there a kind soul that would render my Open Season for me? As a hardened steel, I need to take pleasure in the small victories.

http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=1239613

 

[Pappasman]

Wow, I was gold(consistently in the 1600s) and I played one shitty day where my average was 1450. Now its silver, that kinda sucks.

 

[Tashi]

Oh shit, thanks. That doesn't even show up when I look at it. I probably just made Onyx last night. I wonder what percentage I would have gotten in if I actually played it on a regular basis :/

Also Dax how'd you get Bronze? You're a good player, I figured you'd get Silver or Gold.

 

[bobs...onGaf]

Just a reminder that if you’re interested in having your Halo 3 or ODST clips appear on the Waypoint TOP 5 you can send them to the gamertag: HaloWaypoint or email: community (at) halowaypoint.com.

If the thought of leaving the comfy confines of GAF has you nervous, feel free to pm clips to me here.

Hey, unfortunatly I removed a bunch of clips off my fileshare, but luckily I made a (pretty crappy) montage out of some of them before I did so, if you can be bothered to take a look let me know if theres any particular clips that would be Waypoint worthy and ill re-upload em. Damned lack of Bungie Pro =(

- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhUsetOAom4

 

[DeadFalling]

No percentage for my star :lol Guess that means I'm near the bottom.

Can't be too mad though, I was at least able to do the fabled jump between divisions

Onyx -> Silver -> Gold

I am probably an Onyx now, but I had some really bad games early on :lol



This season isn't recorded right?

 

[Major Williams]

Wow. 9,608 words.

Read most of them - he has some good points, but is garrulously over-worded for what he's trying to say in some instances.

 

[Miggytronz]

my silver went away.

 

[urk]

Read most of them - he has some good points, but is garrulously over-worded for what he's trying to say in some instances.

Word Bloom.

 

[Raide]

Word Bloom.

The water sucks in Word Bloom.

 

[Deadly]

So the beta's over? Damnit I just finished all my exams =(

 

[Gui_PT]

So the beta's over? Damnit I just finished all my exams =(

It ends tomorrow

Go git'er

 

[feel]

Phew! That was long! Enjoyable read, I disagree with some of his opinions, but overall really nice and surprisingly positive. When is he coming back? I'd rather read that stuff in smaller chunks every few days here.

 

[Major Williams]

Word Bloom.

When he was here, you couldn't really see the bloom because it wasn't in our face. So it felt like there was no bloom, even though there really was.

 

[Jex]

Wow, a whole round of Team SWAT where a team mate betrays me and my buddy, and we can't boot him for the whole match. Superb. This isn't how I want to finish of the beta.

 

[The Librarian]

I still dislike sword base.
Every game is "hey everyone camp the lifts" its fucking stupid. One flag is even worse "hey everyone throw you body onto the flag over and over again until we finally get it to the lift" not fun.

Swordbase is AWESOME for King of the Hill. It's "meh" to bad for everything else.

After playing some KotH matches the other day, I've decided that it's the only objective mode that I enjoy. I don't enjoy anything else, and that says a lot.

My main gripes with the beta aren't with the loadouts or the AAs, but what Bungie has done to the core gameplay. I think that's why I have been having such a rollercoaster ride with this beta.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Swordbase is AWESOME for King of the Hill. It's "meh" to bad for everything else.

After playing some KotH matches the other day, I've decided that it's the only objective mode that I enjoy. I don't enjoy anything else, and that says a lot.

My main gripes with the beta aren't with the loadouts or the AAs, but what Bungie has done to the core gameplay. I think that's why I have been having such a rollercoaster ride with this beta.

So true. King of the Hill - aside from Stockpile - has been my favorite gametype of the Beta. The addition of jetpacks, camo and sprint into the mix, plus the different hill sizes and shapes, make for some really great games.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

I love Stockpile. Easily my favorite gametype in the beta. It's great on both maps.

1-Flag on Sword Base is great when playing against n00bs. You can score in what seems like just an instant if you know what you're doing and your opponents don't.

 

[Tashi]

Haven't uploaded any matches from the Beta to my Youtube. Here are 2 from last night.

Oddball Powerhouse

Arena 1610

 

[Hydranockz]

I am watching my brother play Reach atm. A friend of ours joined them and appeared to be muted. My brother couldn't unmunte him and he couldn't hear or be heard by anyone. They had to make a party to hear him. Has this been happening other people?

 

[bobs...onGaf]

I am watching my brother play Reach atm. A friend of ours joined them and appeared to be muted. My brother couldn't unmunte him and he couldn't hear or be heard by anyone. They had to make a party to hear him. Has this been happening other people?

If enough people mute you on Reach you literally get voice banned. I think the systems a bad idea personally as I certainly dont want everyone I mute to get banned, especially when I just mute someone because hes on the phone or something. :lol

 

[Sean P.]

So last season I was onyx top 90%, is that top 90% of all Halo Reach players, or top 90% of all Onyx players?

 

[Shake Appeal]

So last season I was onyx top 90%, is that top 90% of all Halo Reach players, or top 90% of all Onyx players?

Top 90% of Onyx players (i.e. better than 10% of Onyx players). You hung in there by the skin of your teeth.

 

[Sean P.]

Top 90% of Onyx players (i.e. better than 10% of Onyx players). You hung in there by the skin of your teeth.

Wooo partyyyyy

My five daily ratings were like:

1698 - 1655 - 1550 - 1480 - 1578

Hows that for a range haha

 

[electricpirate]

Haven't uploaded any matches from the Beta to my Youtube. Here are 2 from last night.

Oddball Powerhouse

Arena 1610

Nice triple and exterminations in these .

and, wow, I learned like three new jumps, and hiding spots from these, Now I just need to remember them for fall release.

Spoiler

especially since jumps will be floatier again so they will be easier, amiright?

 

[feel]

If enough people mute you on Reach you literally get voice banned. I think the systems a bad idea personally as I certainly dont want everyone I mute to get banned, especially when I just mute someone because hes on the phone or something. :lol

Mindblown! I often mute guys left and right, that are not necessarily annoying me, when I'm by myself playing Slayer and just want some silence. Didn't know that screwed people up. Will start to use the Mute All Voice option from the Reach menu in those cases.

 

[Falagard]

I'm not that great of a player, so I don't have many "wow" moments captured. Here's a vid of me doing fairly well in Arena:

http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=1149108

And a shorter one getting a killing spree:

http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=637113

 

[Tashi]

Nice triple and exterminations in these .

and, wow, I learned like three new jumps, and hiding spots from these, Now I just need to remember them for fall release.

Spoiler

especially since jumps will be floatier again so they will be easier, amiright?

Thanks. And yea map movement, jumps and ledges and stuff are my specialty. I don't have that great of a shot but it can be on sometimes.

 

[squidhands]

and, wow, I learned like three new jumps, and hiding spots from these, Now I just need to remember them for fall release.

No doubt. Wish you would have posted this stuff earlier, Tashi.

 

[op_ivy]

i just realized i never played headhunter

i only played FFA a few times and i guess it never came up as the game mode. if i can pull myself away from AW tonight, i need to give it a go

 

[Merguson]

So when does the beta end exactly?

Is tonight the last night or do we still have time tomorrow?

 

[bobs...onGaf]

Had a awesome moment on the beta just now, I had rockets, enemy had the face melter, he melted my rocket, which went flying off track but it still killed him - was nice.

Anyone wanna play? Going in alone is a bit dull.

 

[Subtervotion]

So last season I was onyx top 90%, is that top 90% of all Halo Reach players, or top 90% of all Onyx players?

I'm with ya! I barely made it in too. Top 90%!

 

[Gui_PT]

Had a awesome moment on the beta just now, I had rockets, enemy had the face melter, he melted my rocket, which went flying off track but it still killed him - was nice.

Anyone wanna play? Going in alone is a bit dull.

Wanna be my bro, bro?

 

[DeadFalling]

Top 90% of Onyx players (i.e. better than 10% of Onyx players). You hung in there by the skin of your teeth.

Question! Anybody know what no percentage means? Does that mean you are in that bottom 10%?

 

[bobs...onGaf]

Wanna be my bro, bro?

Lets go bro!

 

[squidhands]

Sooo...apparently night vision is happening in NT1 as a little glitch. Weird.

 

[Thagomizer]

Sooo...apparently night vision is happening in NT1 as a little glitch. Weird.

I love how that guy just kinda sat there, like "wait, what?" before he continued to glitch kill his teammate :lol :lol

 

[Photolysis]

As I understand it, and someone from Bungie please correct me if I'm wrong, only TrueSkill governs where you place in the Arena.

When you finish a game, the rating you have in that game is compared to the rating of other players in that same game. Basically the eight players are 'ranked' (or maybe you are ranked with just the four opposing players, I am not sure). When you rank better than players who are 'better' than you, TrueSkill scratches its chin and makes some changes. Similarly, when you rank worse than players who are 'worse' than you, your placement drops. When you rank according to its existing understanding (i.e. you, in Silver, get 1400, a Bronze player gets 1200, a Gold player gets 1500, and an Onyx player gets 1600), it does very little, as the system appears to be working, at least on the evidence of that one game.

Thanks for the info. But it's still completely broken when your team is completely unmatched verses a good team:

1. Because of the slow time to kill and lack of teamshooting, you get a lot less kills/assists. This isn't a reflection on how bad you played, simply your teammates were unable to finish the kill. I know this cost me a lot of kills/assists in Arena when I ended up on a completely unbalanced team. I'm sure I've had games where I went something like 1300, whereas with better teammates to finish off the kills it would have been 1600+ or something.

Teamwork is hugely important for getting those kills.

2. Even if you play well, there's still the loss penalty. Against a good team, I could play fantastically well yet come in 5th place rating wise because of the loss penalty which is more punishing the better you play. (The system is also kind of broken here as well because you can suicide and go negative but still get excellent ratings because the system weights deaths as 1/3 kills/assists).

3. With a good enough team, which you would expect at high levels of play, they will always be teamshooting. When I used to play high level Team Slayer in H3 verses 50s, you would almost always see the winning team with 48-50 assists or something like that. Potentially even more than 50 assists in some cases. With no backup from your team you get completely destroyed in 2v1. It's right that teamwork wins, don't get me wrong. But how is it a fair comparison of skill when I never had a chance?


As you can see, having a completely mismatched team can easily drag you down with them due to these many factors. And then the system going "hey you're onyx and you keep losing to these gold/onyx guys ... I guess you're not that good" and treating the results as a significant indicator of skill. It's broken beyond belief.

It's just a huge chain of mistakes.

 

[JaggedSac]

Arena complaints.

It is as good as you can do in a team game type. Your individual skill at a team based game type. It is a much, much better indication than the ranking in Halo 3. How would you do it differently?

Also, you could just play the FFA arena game type in the full release.

 

[Shake Appeal]

Most of what you said could be addressed by playing with teammates of a comparable or better level than yourself.

Something else that might help is having a 'mercenary' sub-playlist where the max. player count for parties is 1.

 

[electricpirate]

Thanks for the info. But it's still completely broken when your team is completely unmatched verses a good team:

1. Because of the slow time to kill and lack of teamshooting, you get a lot less kills/assists. This isn't a reflection on how bad you played, simply your teammates were unable to finish the kill. I know this cost me a lot of kills/assists in Arena when I ended up on a completely unbalanced team. I'm sure I've had games where I went something like 1300, whereas with better teammates to finish off the kills it would have been 1600+ or something.

Teamwork is hugely important for getting those kills.

2. Even if you play well, there's still the loss penalty. Against a good team, I could play fantastically well yet come in 5th place rating wise because of the loss penalty which is more punishing the better you play. (The system is also kind of broken here as well because you can suicide and go negative but still get excellent ratings because the system weights deaths as 1/3 kills/assists).

3. With a good enough team, which you would expect at high levels of play, they will always be teamshooting. When I used to play high level Team Slayer in H3 verses 50s, you would almost always see the winning team with 48-50 assists or something like that. Potentially even more than 50 assists in some cases. With no backup from your team you get completely destroyed in 2v1. It's right that teamwork wins, don't get me wrong. But how is it a fair comparison of skill when I never had a chance?


As you can see, having a completely mismatched team can easily drag you down with them due to these many factors. And then the system going "hey you're onyx and you keep losing to these gold/onyx guys ... I guess you're not that good" and treating the results as a significant indicator of skill. It's broken beyond belief.

It's just a huge chain of mistakes.

You're under the assumption that your rating will be heavily punished for that loss, but if shake is correct, you go into that game, where you are outmatched, you get whooped by people who it seems should whoop you, and your rating doesn't really move up or down in that situation.

Now, two groups of equal skill, one randoms and one a party on the other hand, that really needs to be avoided, as the randoms will get SO donged on, and they will take a big hit to their rankings.

 

[DeadFalling]

It is as good as you can do in a team game type. Your individual skill at a team based game type. It is a much, much better indication than the ranking in Halo 3. How would you do it differently?

Also, you could just play the FFA arena game type in the full release.

Weight deaths more heavily, less loss penalty for the guy on the losing team who did better than all his teammates, extra reward for the guy who did best out of all 8 players, stronger penalty for the guys that go extremely negative.

 

[Shake Appeal]

You're under the assumption that your rating will be heavily punished for that loss, but if shake is correct, you go into that game, where you are outmatched, you get whooped by people who it seems should whoop you, and your rating doesn't really move up or down in that situation.

Right, it's similar to a situation in Halo 3's Team Slayer where you are matched up with players who are all ranked much higher than you. If you lose, it's not going to hurt you much, as it conforms to TrueSkill's expectations. If you win, it's a significant upset that forces the system to reconsider what it 'knows' about the players involved.

Edit: at least before the system becomes so cemented that it's near-impossible to tell it anything different because it basically has its fingers in its ears and is singsonging 'la-la-la, can't hear you'. But that doesn't happen in Reach, where TrueSkill is off the artificial leash it was given in 3.

 

[pyrealnova]

Played my first match of Spartan v. Elite slayer last night. Spent the first 5 minutes of the match avoiding my "teammates" who were running around betraying each other. Made me realize why I almost exclusively play Arena, or ranked matches in the case of Halo 3. That said, I am said to see the beta end soon =(

 

[Schmitty]

So is the beta going down at 12 AM PST or do we get to play all of the 19th as well?

 

[divisionbyzorro]

So is the beta going down at 12 AM PST or do we get to play all of the 19th as well?

I very much want to know the answer to this question as well. I'm kinda busy tonight, but would love a last hurrah tomorrow night if possible.

 

[Photolysis]

How would you do it differently?

I would make sure the teams are equal and only pair high ranking players against high ranking players. This is the root cause of the problem. If I'm a 50 in H3, I expect to be matched up with 48-50s both on my team and against. I expect teams of 3+1 to play against teams of 3+1 and teams of 4 to play teams of 4. This system worked in H3!


Some of the other stuff could also be handled by fixing the rating algorithm so that deaths are the same as kills/assists. If I go -15 with 20 kills and 1 assist the system should not be saying "hey, that guy's a damn good player", it should be saying "wow, that guy's a maniac who charges in and costs his team".

The changes to assists also helps; at the moment it doesn't seem to register shield damage.

I'd remove the loss penalty and focus on other incentives for doing well (maintaining your rank/division and gaining extra credits is quite compelling).

One other change that might be worth including is if you do significantly better than your teammates then the game gives less weight to a loss. Or the game could simply look at the raw performance rating instead of the mere position. Seems kind of strange that the game could treat soul-crushing defeats the same as the narrowest win, and only base it on where you came out of the list of players.



Fundamentally, I enjoy team games far more than FFA. I personally think Halo plays at its best in team games too. If I didn't like them, I wouldn't be posting constructive criticism of the arena system.

I think the arena rating system also offers far more possibility for closer matches and for separating skilled players from unskilled players if executed right. I'd like to see it do that!

You're under the assumption that your rating will be heavily punished for that loss, but if shake is correct, you go into that game, where you are outmatched, you get whooped by people who it seems should whoop you, and your rating doesn't really move up or down in that situation.

Except the game doesn't think I should be beaten; that's the disparity caused by the fact it puts me with people with a massive skill difference. For the steel players, it sees a bunch of steel guys being crushed by onyx which is meaningless. And that's true.

But it also sees me being crushed along with them and thinks "hey, he's onyx... he shouldn't be losing to these players so much, clearly he can't be that good after all". If the teams were balanced of course that would be the case and the results are significant. But they're not significant when the matchup is so one-sided it's hilarious, and matchmaking needs to be fixed so these situation don't occur, and they're meaningless if they do.

 

[Lazslo]

So is the beta going down at 12 AM PST or do we get to play all of the 19th as well?

I'm just guessing they will probably turn it off around the same time they turned it on, sometime around 11 PST (speculation). Everyone should try and get on tonight and get a good party going, right now Me, Gui, and Bobs are rocking some Invasion right now if anyone wants to join our partay.

 

[DeadFalling]

Some of the other stuff could also be handled by fixing the rating algorithm so that deaths are the same as kills/assists. If I go -15 with 20 kills and 1 assist the system should not be saying "hey, that guy's a damn good player", it should be saying "wow, that guy's a maniac who charges in and costs his team".

It's done like this so that Halo doesn't turn into a campfest. I agree they should be weighted more heavily than they are right now, but 1:1 encourages camping.

One other change that might be worth including is if you do significantly better than your teammates then the game gives less weight to a loss. Or the game could simply look at the raw performance rating instead of the mere position. Seems kind of strange that the game could treat soul-crushing defeats the same as the narrowest win, and only base it on where you came out of the list of players.

This. I can't stand it when I do way better than the randoms I'm paired up with, yet I end up with a rating lower than the lowest guy on the winning team.

Fundamentally, I enjoy team games far more than FFA. I personally think Halo plays at its best in team games too.

Same boat here. Everyone says "go play ffa" but it's just not the same.

But it also sees me being crushed along with them and thinks "hey, he's onyx... he shouldn't be losing to these players so much, clearly he can't be that good after all". If the teams were balanced of course that would be the case and the results are significant.

I believe that this is the exact reason why I have changed divisions 2 separate times in the Pre-season when supposedly once you are placed in a division you are supposed to be pretty much stuck there. I go in solo and play with randoms like 90% of the time, so my rating fluctuates to both extremes (1100 to 1700+) depending on who it is I'm matched up against/teamed up with. When I get teamed with players my skill level who can support me I often dominate and go on win streaks, but when I have teammates below my skill level I also do bad, since Reach depends so much on your teammates assisting you with these prolonged, drug-out firefights.

I mean really... changing divisions from Onyx -> Silver -> Gold in the span of like 2 weeks is a little ridiculous when you are supposed to be placed into a division of people at equal skill level and subsequently teamed up with/against those in your division and only supposed to move up/down inside that division.

I'm not sure how to fix this problem, but whatever the hell they are using right now is not ranking/placing players well at all....