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[Zeouterlimits]

Wanted to share this clip..

http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=698600

i was in the tank. so random :lol

That clip doesn't show how you went flying.
'Nice' shot though.

Vanilla Halo is fine, but it's basically just robbing the game of depth by distilling it down to only the most simple elements.

A more pure, simple and effective test of skill. Rules/restrictions exist for a reason in RL competitive games, MLG is not-exactly that different.

As someone who is poor at it, I still enjoy watching the MLG stream, and appreciating the skills displayed.

 

[Plywood]

The fun from the available sandbox is only a small part of the total fun in the MLG gametypes. The real fun comes from the teamwork, the competition, the game changing split second decisions, the spawn traps, the setups, the clutch flag runs. And you can argue that you can get these in chocolate Halo but Vanilla Halo cuts out all the extra stuff "Oh, I got the drop on this guy, he's totally gonna get 5 shotted, no wait, he armor locked, now his teammate is sprinting at me with a hammer, I died" That's cool and all when I don't want to play competitively but I don't like that when I am. It's just uber frustrating. But hey, to each his own.

I think dslgunstar stole the words out my mouth and made them look good.

Though I can understand wanting to try and reduce random elements for the sake of competitive play, I still think the AA's should be considered and not just tossed out from the get. For example I can totally see the Camo AA not working in MLG, but jet pack could be a very vital double edged sword.

 

[pringles]

Cause a triple digit winning streak would have been fucking awesome. I've never tried to hide the fact that most of the games were blowouts against scrubs.

I have zero fun playing this game competitively, the game mechanics just don't hold up for that kind of play. Donging on scrubs lets me just goof around with less frustration. It's like challenging yourself to run through a campaign level on heroic with only melees. Winning becomes a sure thing, an afterthought, instead you play almost a meta game. Let's see if I can get a perfection before the other team quits or kills me with grenades, how about a double kill with the plasma pistol. Only way I can enjoy Reach in its current state.

The way you enjoy the game is up to you, my problem is more that the matchmaking system is so bad in this beta. Randoms shouldn't be paired up against teams of 4. Since I'm usually on the random side, I have a hard time getting more than a 2-game win streak despite almost never being in the minuses.

 

[Toothpick]

That clip doesn't show how you went flying.
'Nice' shot though.

I was sitting on a 'weapon drop' and a wraith that spawned sent me launching. I'll try to get a better angle of it. Moments like that make love Halo..

 

[GodfatherX]

Had an extreme amount of lag in games tonight...glad they extended it a day so hopefully tomorrow nights games will be smooth

also there better be a Swat only playlist come September

 

[Tashi]

How exactly does that not fall into the category of teamwork, split-second decisions, and competition?

It's a new tactical wrinkle for teams to factor into their offensive, defensive, flanking, rushing, and ambushing strategies.

I really don't see how being more skilled at using the AAs than another player is less valid than being better than another player with a particular weapon.

Vanilla Halo is fine, but it's basically just robbing the game of depth by distilling it down to only the most simple elements.

I didn't say that it doesn't fall into those categories. I actually said you can argue that it does but it's just not the type that I enjoy. It frustrates me when I play stock Reach and Halo 3 competitively. It feels cheap to me. I also think there's more to a player's skill than just how well he can shoot his gun.

About the AA's, they're kind of in between Halo 3 and a class based game. They're not pick ups but they're not dedicated classes as in, a class you choose in the beginning of a game and then keep the whole time. It might work better if I couldn't change my AA in between deaths, who knows? It might be "robbing" the game of depth just because now I don't have to think about which AA to pick and whether or not the guy I'm shooting will throw down Armor Lock at any moment. I'm more than fine with that lol. It just feels a little random. Nothing is for sure. The AA's feel like get out of jail free cards sometimes.

The way you enjoy the game is up to you, my problem is more that the matchmaking system is so bad in this beta. Randoms shouldn't be paired up against teams of 4. Since I'm usually on the random side, I have a hard time getting more than a 2-game win streak despite almost never being in the minuses.

I think this was done purposely to speed up matchmaking times and get people playing as many games as possible. Halo 3 has this feature and I'd bet that Reach will as well.

 

[dslgunstar]

A more pure, simple and effective test of skill. Rules/restrictions exist for a reason in RL competitive games, MLG is not-exactly that different.

To a degree they do. But they dont genetically engineer all the players on the field to move at the exact same speed, hit with the exact same power, aim their shots/throws/kicks with the exact same accuracy.

MLG basically whittles the game down to the point where everybody is exactly the same, and thats boring. In real life sports and games, you have players and teams with specific advantages and disadvantages. Some teams rely on speed and skill, others defense, and others toughness.

No team has ever been told, 'no you cant use that player, he's too good at shooting the puck'. There's no different between that and telling a player that a specific weapon or AA is off limits. Banning a player is banning a weapon from that team's arsenal. Its up to the other team to figure out how to neutralize that weapon. Likewise, it should be up to the player's in Halo to figure out the best way to circumvent particular weapons or abilities.

I personally hate the plasma launcher, for example but I still think it has a place in the game. I just have to figure out the best way to deal with it (when Im not using armor lock).

 

[bobs...onGaf]

rendering in hd, used all of my remaining minutes

:0 You are a very kind gentleman! Thanks a lot, I actually dreamt that I was playing the beta last night :lol, I really wanna get back on but im away from xbox for a while now

 

[Zeouterlimits]

To a degree they do. But they dont genetically engineer all the players on the field to move at the exact same speed, hit with the exact same power, aim their shots/throws/kicks with the exact same accuracy.

MLG basically whittles the game down to the point where everybody is exactly the same, and thats boring.

Well I have to disagree. Your point about the the players I understand (it applies to the MLG players too in a sense but that's digressing really) but my response to that is that perhaps the rest of the sandbox is not as finely tuned as the base elements are. It allows for a level playing field where your playing skills, strategic plotting/logical thinking and team work ability really count.
I can at least see why MLG feel that the extended sandbox would break some of the requirements for this.

As for it being boring, I disagree. The tense close to a tough, fair MLG game is quite exciting, probably similar to what people who are interested in rl sports feel when they're watching a match in their respective sport.

 

[Tashi]

If you wanna make a comparison of Stock Reach to Sports(which is inherently flawed anyway but I'll play along) it'd be like this. Quarter back drops back, receiver jukes the defender and makes him trip and fall. The quarter back throws the ball, the receiver is wide open and ready to make an easy catch. But suddenly that defender who got schooled, stretches his arms out from the floor 20 yards away and intercepts the ball.

With MLG the spartans/guns aka rules of the game are the same but the people playing them are not. For example, with the guys I play MLG with, we each do somethings better than others. I don't have that great of a shot, but I have good awareness. I know where all players are on the map, I know when weapons and powerups are respawning, I know where players are respawning, I know what players are going to do and when they're going to do it. Some are better with Snipers, or Rockets. Some are better flag runners or ball holders.

 

[bobs...onGaf]

Why doesn't MLG just requisition a map from Bungie that is nothing but one huge, untextured box?

That way, there would be absolutely no variables in play to get in the way of such a pure test of 'skill'. :lol

Halo: Reach is much more interesting with the abilities in play.

The MLG maps have the best flow in the game in my opinion, (the forged ones that is), I dont play enough MLG to know the names, but even if I dont really like the settings, I LOVE the maps. I think I will lean towards MLG with Reach, im a bit worried for the Reach maps, (they seem overly cluttered, with random little rooms here and there), I also think that the MLG settings will be more 'fun' if they have a slightly higher movement speed/ jump height.

As for AA's, I will miss them, but some of them promote pretty cheesy tactics, when I want to play competitivly I dont want a team armour locking in tandem, I want good flow. I played a oddball game yesterday where every single player (including myself) used armour lock, it was hilarious, but was pretty shitty to actually play. If I want to play with the full sandbox ill just play Invasion every so often.

The way you enjoy the game is up to you, my problem is more that the matchmaking system is so bad in this beta. Randoms shouldn't be paired up against teams of 4. Since I'm usually on the random side, I have a hard time getting more than a 2-game win streak despite almost never being in the minuses.

Agreed, if I had a team I would probably go on a pretty nice winning streak but im not gonna hate on the people who are in a party (it just sucks for me none of my friends are ever on), if anything im just gonna hope Reach matches randoms with randoms in the final game.

 

[Prophet Steve]

Wanted to share this clip..

http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=698600

i was in the tank. so random :lol

That needs to be in the montage. :lol

 

[The Librarian]

I know I'm a little late but the one game I went negative in you weren't even playing in so "would you kindly" suck my dick

I'm still seeing just as much red as blue. See, my team kept on winning and your team kept on losing. There's a pattern to be seen here.

 

[WJD]

1 Flag on Sword Base is so fucking broken :lol

 

[KidA Seven]

What makes people think MLG will strip the game down? The only reason they did that in Halo 3 was because certain weapons were redundant (which Bungie and Sage obviously agreed) and the equipment didn't enhance game play but rather make it slower and reward players in bad positions to have a get of jail free card. Also, the variety people must want in MLG must be vehicles because in non big team battle the weapons in default that are useless never get picked up anyways.

In Reach, there are far more useful weapons and MLG will be considering AAs so long as they are balanced which I think they are aside from Armor lock.

 

[Prophet Steve]

What makes people think MLG will strip the game down? The only reason they did that in Halo 3 was because certain weapons were redundant (which Bungie and Sage obviously agreed) and the equipment didn't enhance game play but rather make it slower and reward players in bad positions to have a get of jail free card. Also, the variety people must want in MLG must be vehicles because in non big team battle the weapons in default that are useless never get picked up anyways.

In Reach, there are far more useful weapons and MLG will be considering AAs so long as they are balanced which I think they are aside from Armor lock.

Because they want to be as less variables in the game as possible. Different armor locks is a variable. Bloom = variable.

 

[TheOddOne]

Halo: Reach BetaBusters Episode 3

I did not know about the operable Plasma Cannon :0

 

[remz]

Because they want to be as less variables in the game as possible. Different armor locks is a variable. Bloom = variable.

I don't believe that at all.

 

[Raide]

Halo: Reach BetaBusters Episode 3

I did not know about the operable Plasma Cannon :0

So awesome.

Also, Griffball is so going to be replaced by some Plasma Grenade\Hammer Baseball variant.

"I got it! I got it! I got it! *BOOM*"

"You're outta there!!"

 

[Prophet Steve]

I don't believe that at all.

I could easily be wrong, not a MLG fan/expert. But I think that's the reason.

 

[G_Berry]

MLG BRO! FULLY SICK!

 

[KidA Seven]

I could easily be wrong, not a MLG fan/expert. But I think that's the reason.

Nah, they've already said they will try AAs... I mean, they did have ShadowRun on the circuit. Not only that, but most members want there to be AAs.

 

[Silly.Mikey]

Why doesn't MLG just requisition a map from Bungie that is nothing but one huge, untextured box?

That way, there would be absolutely no variables in play to get in the way of such a pure test of 'skill'. :lol

Halo: Reach is much more interesting with the abilities in play.

I have the perfect game for them.....Halo3.

 

[Neverender]

Don't know why everyone gets so bitter about MLG. Don't like it, don't play it.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Nah, they've already said they will try AAs... I mean, they did have ShadowRun on the circuit. Not only that, but most members want there to be AAs.

If Bungie is smart, they'll make the attributes of AA (jetpack time, sprint speed, armor lock duration, etc) modifiable in the Forge. This will let groups like MLG tweak them to their liking.

 

[electricpirate]

For the new page:

In the name of science I conducted a few controlled experiments with the reticule bloom to test the extent of the randomness it produces, specifically it landing hits when the reticule is not on the player.

Here's the films of the 4 games I played, no one should bother rendering them as they're long and the purpose is to see the reticule, furthermore it's much easier to see where each shot lands by viewing it in theater and slowing it down.
1
2
3
4

Here's a pic of what I'm talking about. This is the shot that kills the player:

The reason it did so is because the bloomed reticule made the bullet land in a random location within this greater radius:

This bloom adds too much randomness in the gunplay for my liking and adds more frustration than fun or skill.

So I watched two of the vids this morning (Only two actually Downloaded to my xbox for some reason)

Those random headshots happened in about 1/70 shots, and getting a random luck body shot. I didn't do a full tally, but it seemed like you'd get a lucky headshot about every one in 10 kills, and in those one in ten, it took an average of a magazine and a half to get it. I'm saying 1/70 because I'm dropping 2 shots from the start of each kill to account for the starting accuracy, but not from the second magazine because it doesn't reset your bloom when you reload.

About 6 out of 10 kills you would get 3 body shots to get the kill while the reticle didn't cover the person. These would also take an average of a magazine and a half to maybe 2 full magazines, and in about a 1/4 of those situations you would have to strip shields repeatedly to get a total of 3 body shots.

The Other 3 out of 10 kills were the most interesting, they came from when you would get Red Reticule at some point during the shooting, I'm guessing due to the random kick of the magazine? Once you achieved Red Reticule, standard and headshots landed much more consistently. In those situations you would generally kill within a single magazine. often in 2/3 of the magazine. In one of the vids on sword base, you can see a time where you don't hit a single shot with the reticule off the player, then when the reticule moves just a bit to the left, on the shoulder of the other spartan, and turns red, you hit roughly 3/5 shots.

So it seems the game anchors the spread of your shots to the quality of your aim in some way. I'd love to see some more testing on this stuff, but it will probably have to wait till the fall, as I'm sure this will all be tweaked.

What I did see though, was a system that fundamentally rewarded accuracy and timing. Bad aim and spamming the trigger would require between 3-5 full magazines, each taking nearly a second and a half to pull off to get a single kill. in the meantime, a sure shot pistoler, who keeps their bloom in control should be able to get the kill in about 2 seconds. At the ranges you demonstrated, the player who has better aim, and knowledge of firing rhythm is going to win that fight almost every time. In fact, I'd say they are going to win that fight far more often than they would against AR charges in Halo 3 or against Dual Wielders in Halo 2.

You don't like the feeling of randomness, and no statistical argument is going to change that, but your images also suggest another issue you have with the game, that scrubs (like me) can pull off kills by spamming with poor aim, and I think your vids show pretty well how rare it is to get gift headshots, and difficult it would be to get gift kills against an opponent with any knowledge of how to play.

 

[LosDaddie]

Kotaku is reporting the beta has been extended a day!

Spoiler

Yes, I already knew. I'm just happy to get another day, dammit

 

[Gui_PT]

I was so confused how I died in the banshee in this clip. That is a pretty funny bug though, It would of been so amazing if you stuck that one guy at the end- it's still hilarious.

You probably hit an invisible wall and the egg shell banshee couldn't handle it :lol

Btw, I'm free all afternoon if you guys want to get a party going

 

[bobs...onGaf]

So I watched two of the vids this morning (Only two actually Downloaded to my xbox for some reason)

Those random headshots happened in about 1/70 shots, and getting a random luck body shot. I didn't do a full tally, but it seemed like you'd get a lucky headshot about every one in 10 kills, and in those one in ten, it took an average of a magazine and a half to get it. I'm saying 1/70 because I'm dropping 2 shots from the start of each kill to account for the starting accuracy, but not from the second magazine because it doesn't reset your bloom when you reload.

About 6 out of 10 kills you would get 3 body shots to get the kill while the reticle didn't cover the person. These would also take an average of a magazine and a half to maybe 2 full magazines, and in about a 1/4 of those situations you would have to strip shields repeatedly to get a total of 3 body shots.

The Other 3 out of 10 kills were the most interesting, they came from when you would get Red Reticule at some point during the shooting, I'm guessing due to the random kick of the magazine? Once you achieved Red Reticule, standard and headshots landed much more consistently. In those situations you would generally kill within a single magazine. often in 2/3 of the magazine. In one of the vids on sword base, you can see a time where you don't hit a single shot with the reticule off the player, then when the reticule moves just a bit to the left, on the shoulder of the other spartan, and turns red, you hit roughly 3/5 shots.

So it seems the game anchors the spread of your shots to the quality of your aim in some way. I'd love to see some more testing on this stuff, but it will probably have to wait till the fall, as I'm sure this will all be tweaked.

What I did see though, was a system that fundamentally rewarded accuracy and timing. Bad aim and spamming the trigger would require between 3-5 full magazines, each taking nearly a second and a half to pull off to get a single kill. in the meantime, a sure shot pistoler, who keeps their bloom in control should be able to get the kill in about 2 seconds. At the ranges you demonstrated, the player who has better aim, and knowledge of firing rhythm is going to win that fight almost every time. In fact, I'd say they are going to win that fight far more often than they would against AR charges in Halo 3 or against Dual Wielders in Halo 2.

You don't like the feeling of randomness, and no statistical argument is going to change that, but your video's don't show that bloom is some kind of Crutch that gives lesser players a chance, despite the image you posted above.

Getting lucky 1/ 10 kills is still a LOT, thats like saying the average player would get lucky at least once a game. No one is saying they hate the system because it lets the lesser skilled player get the kill, theyre saying they hate the system because it lets the luckier player get the kill.

I also found while playing with Gaf that my shots didnt want to register, this is to be expected when trying to play with people living in America (you guys should all just come live in England) but it still sucks. At the end of the day, it already takes a LOT to kill someone, theres the added element of lag and shots not registering, and on top of that my opponent can get lucky spamming me? RAAAAAAAAAAGE!!!! :lol

 

[JaggedSac]

Weight deaths more heavily, less loss penalty for the guy on the losing team who did better than all his teammates, extra reward for the guy who did best out of all 8 players, stronger penalty for the guys that go extremely negative.

Weighting deaths heavier is a definite possibility, but could result in teams turtling up. Which makes for boring matches. Encouraging risk makes for a more engaging experience. There is already a bit of hesitation when taking risks.

Loss penalty is a team penalty. Play as a better team and avoid the penalty.

An extra reward is unnecessary, imo.

I would make sure the teams are equal and only pair high ranking players against high ranking players. This is the root cause of the problem. If I'm a 50 in H3, I expect to be matched up with 48-50s both on my team and against. I expect teams of 3+1 to play against teams of 3+1 and teams of 4 to play teams of 4. This system worked in H3!


Some of the other stuff could also be handled by fixing the rating algorithm so that deaths are the same as kills/assists. If I go -15 with 20 kills and 1 assist the system should not be saying "hey, that guy's a damn good player", it should be saying "wow, that guy's a maniac who charges in and costs his team".

The changes to assists also helps; at the moment it doesn't seem to register shield damage.

I'd remove the loss penalty and focus on other incentives for doing well (maintaining your rank/division and gaining extra credits is quite compelling).

One other change that might be worth including is if you do significantly better than your teammates then the game gives less weight to a loss. Or the game could simply look at the raw performance rating instead of the mere position. Seems kind of strange that the game could treat soul-crushing defeats the same as the narrowest win, and only base it on where you came out of the list of players.



Fundamentally, I enjoy team games far more than FFA. I personally think Halo plays at its best in team games too. If I didn't like them, I wouldn't be posting constructive criticism of the arena system.

I think the arena rating system also offers far more possibility for closer matches and for separating skilled players from unskilled players if executed right. I'd like to see it do that!

Reach still uses TrueSkill for matching players. In fact, it is a much more aggressive TrueSkill than Halo 3's, being able to accurately rank your skill after 7 matches I believe. And having a rank of 48-50 in Halo 3 does not necessarily imply more individual skill. It implies having played with good teams. It is a team ranking, not an individual one. This is a large reason the Arena rating exists.

A player with 35 deaths, 20 kills, 1 assist, and a loss, gets a rating of 1352, which is not a rating one would want, and much less consider them a "damn good player".

I agree somewhat on the shield damage part, although they would need to add logic to cancel the assist if the shield recharges.

Loss penalty is there to encourage team play. Not just camping somewhere while team mates are getting flanked and double teamed. Another way would be to give a win boost, but it is tit for tat and would make no difference in how players are placed throughout divisions. Team skill is an individual skill that needs to be measured in some manner in the rating.


And on a final note, everyone is playing within the same rating system.

 

[Louis Wu]

Getting lucky 1/ 10 kills is still a LOT, thats like saying the average player would get lucky at least once a game. No one is saying they hate the system because it lets the lesser skilled player get the kill, theyre saying they hate the system because it lets the luckier player get the kill.

I think you missed electricpirate's point that no matter what it FEELS like, the average player's 'lucky kill' rate is LOWER in Reach than it is in Halo 3.

I got at least one 'lucky kill' against players CLEARLY better than me in most Halo 3 games - and yet you're still arguing that Reach is more random (less skill-based) than H3. I'm pretty confident that once good gamers have a reasonable number of games under their belts (most of the loudest complainers here have 5000+ H3 games on their service record, compared to fewer than 500 Reach games), they'll find that they're winning MORE often against scrubs like me than they were in Halo 3.

 

[metareferential]

I think you missed electricpirate's point that no matter what it FEELS like, the average player's 'lucky kill' rate is LOWER in Reach than it is in Halo 3.

I got at least one 'lucky kill' against players CLEARLY better than me in most Halo 3 games - and yet you're still arguing that Reach is more random (less skill-based) than H3. I'm pretty confident that once good gamers have a reasonable number of games under their belts (most of the loudest complainers here have 5000+ H3 games on their service record, compared to fewer than 500 Reach games), they'll find that they're winning MORE often against scrubs like me than they were in Halo 3.

"Bu-bu-but it's still not Halo 3".

xD

 

[electricpirate]

Getting lucky 1/ 10 kills is still a LOT, thats like saying the average player would get lucky at least once a game. No one is saying they hate the system because it lets the lesser skilled player get the kill, theyre saying they hate the system because it lets the luckier player get the kill.

I also found while playing with Gaf that my shots didnt want to register, this is to be expected when trying to play with people living in America (you guys should all just come live in England) but it still sucks. At the end of the day, it already takes a LOT to kill someone, theres the added element of lag and shots not registering, and on top of that my opponent can get lucky spamming me? RAAAAAAAAAAGE!!!! :lol

First: What Mr. Wu said,

second, that 1 in 10 lucky headshot was against an unshielded, stationary target, that wasn't firing back. In an actual game situation, that percentage is going to be far lower, as the better player is going to be able to line up a shot before the spam hits.

As a totally shitty player, (BRONZE BEOTHCES) this fits with my experience, where I might get a lucky pistol headshot kill one out of every 3 games or so.

 

[bobs...onGaf]

I think you missed electricpirate's point that no matter what it FEELS like, the average player's 'lucky kill' rate is LOWER in Reach than it is in Halo 3.

I got at least one 'lucky kill' against players CLEARLY better than me in most Halo 3 games - and yet you're still arguing that Reach is more random (less skill-based) than H3. I'm pretty confident that once good gamers have a reasonable number of games under their belts (most of the loudest complainers here have 5000+ H3 games on their service record, compared to fewer than 500 Reach games), they'll find that they're winning MORE often against scrubs like me than they were in Halo 3.

There are more factors in play than just the bloom though, on Halo 3 you can BR someone EXTREMELY quickly close range, essentially people could get lucky in Halo 3 but a good player could kill the opponent so quickly that luck didnt come into play. You also had greater movement on Halo 3, if I was suprised by a AR user I could probably jump over his head and escape. :lol

Pistol vs Pistol in Reach is very different from BR vs AR on Halo 3. I would say you cant even compare those situations. On Reach in a 1v1 Pistol fight if a user can get unlucky 9/10 of his 1v1 situations just by spamming, thats a lot, especially when you consider 1v1 situations arent exactly rare.

As I said, bad shot registration + health resiliance + spammer = ARGH RAGE for me. :lol (Guys seriously, just all move to England, tea and crumpets for all!) - So yeah even if it is just a perceptual thing, theres more factors involved and you cant simplify it down to the level electricpirate's example did.


Meh I dont like bloom, but its here to stay and so I guess I will drop the subject. The bloom works well at putting weapons into intended niches, but it also has the side effect of making close range combat seem like a crap shoot (to me), I just wish that Bungie could have found a better way of putting weapons into niche's is all.

"Bu-bu-but it's still not Halo 3".

xD

NOW I GET IT, how could I have been so dum, I dont like bloom because it makes the game too different to Halo 3, DOH! Its not that I dont like its effects on gunplay at all!, Now let me go fly on my jetpack and shoot my armour locked enemy with my 'dax-pipe' because that reminds me of Halo 3.

Spoiler

"If you couldnt tell, I was being sarcastic!" :lol I dont dislike change, im not complaining about AA's or whatever, I simply think the bloom mechanic drains the fun out of gunplay

 

[Gareth Bale]

Gold... no percentage given. So I was at the bottom of that pack? I don't are. I had a blast.

Sames. Let's just say we were >top 10% gold

Spoiler

although that's impossible and it was most likely <top 90% gold

 

[Kapura]

There are a whole bunch of us unrated gold. I think it's top 90%, because I'm awesome and badass.

 

[sc0la]

One thing I am really missing from H3 is the bubble shield armor lock is a poor substitute

 

[electricpirate]

As I said, bad shot registration + health resiliance + spammer = ARGH RAGE for me. (Guys seriously, just all move to England, tea and crumpets for all!) - So yeah even if it is just a perceptual thing, theres more factors involved and you cant simplify it down to the level electricpirate's example did.

I'll break it down in another way, that might make more sense. From watching those vids, The system really rewards two things, first who is more accurate, then who had the smarter firing rhythm. In CQB, aiming center mass with the pistol and spamming is a reliable way to get body shots, enough to drop shields and get a melee consistently, or to get shields down and let it cool down enough for the headshot. In all of these situations the player who can keep their reticule on the center of mass better is going to win this fight regularly; the way bloom and bullet magnetism interact basically ensures it. Having enough of their body to get a red reticule dramatically increases the number of shots landed, even at full bloom. Very rarely the spammer with worse aim may score the winning headshot, but Eazys vid's show that it's a pretty rare thing.

Meh I dont like bloom, but its here to stay and so I guess I will drop the subject. The bloom works well at putting weapons into intended niches, but it also has the side effect of making close range combat seem like a crap shoot (to me), I just wish that Bungie could have found a better way of putting weapons into niche's is all.

Sorry, I just can't let you drop it. :lol

See, I think you have it wrong there. The big 3 stat's (ROF, damage, base accuracy) of a weapon define it's niche, and bloom serves to expand that niche without breaking the sandbox like the Halo 1 pistol or Halo 2 BR. For example, the pistol with no bloom would be totally broken, it could kill faster than nearly any weapon out to mid-long range. To balance that it would either need to have a slower ROF, making it a poor close range weapon, or worse accuracy, making it a bad medium range weapon. With Bloom they can have a pistol that has a role that works at both ranges.

 

[The Librarian]

One thing I am really missing from H3 is the bubble shield armor lock is a poor substitute

No mancannons are the real sucker punch. Reach cannot possibly be more fun than Halo 3 without them.

 

[bobs...onGaf]

I'll break it down in another way, that might make more sense. From watching those vids, The system really rewards two things, first who is more accurate, then who had the smarter firing rhythm. In CQB, aiming center mass with the pistol and spamming is a reliable way to get body shots, enough to drop shields and get a melee consistently, or to get shields down and let it cool down enough for the headshot. In all of these situations the player who can keep their reticule on the center of mass better is going to win this fight regularly; the way bloom and bullet magnetism interact basically ensures it. Having enough of their body to get a red reticule dramatically increases the number of shots landed, even at full bloom. Very rarely the spammer with worse aim may score the winning headshot, but Eazy's vid's show that it's a pretty rare thing.



Sorry, I just can't let you drop it. :lol

See, I think you have it wrong there. The big 3 stat's (ROF, damage, base accuracy) of a weapon define it's niche, and bloom serves to expand that niche without breaking the sandbox like the Halo 1 pistol or Halo 2 BR. For example, the pistol with no bloom would be totally broken, it could kill faster than nearly any weapon out to mid-long range. To balance that it would either need to have a slower ROF, making it a poor close range weapon, or worse accuracy, making it a bad medium range weapon. With Bloom they can have a pistol that has a role that works at both ranges.

First off, even im tired of complaining, ive been a bit of a manbaby about Bloom and Movement since day 1 of the beta, and im sure no one wants to hear it anymore. :lol

From Eazy's video though (and your analysis), getting killed because of pure luck in a 1v1 fight JUST once a night is bad enough for me. Sure Bloom isnt a total coin flip, but its still too random for my liking.

"Having enough of their body to get a red reticule dramatically increases the number of shots landed, even at full bloom." - Yeah I dont like this, spamming at close range makes a lot of sense, and the guy who knows to spam at close range deserves to get the kills in Reach. In older Halo though the player HAD to aim at any range, it wasnt a case of spamming at close range while generally staying on centre mass, it was a case of spamming, while jumping and trying to keep the reticule on the head so the spam is effective.

So I guess I have 2 problems with bloom

• The small luck factor.
• The way close range pistol fights play out because of it.

And its not about skill or luck for the second point, I genuinly just dont find close range pistol battles fun anymore.

See, I think you have it wrong there. The big 3 stat's (ROF, damage, base accuracy) of a weapon define it's niche, and bloom serves to expand that niche without breaking the sandbox like the Halo 1 pistol or Halo 2 BR. For example, the pistol with no bloom would be totally broken, it could kill faster than nearly any weapon out to mid-long range. To balance that it would either need to have a slower ROF, making it a poor close range weapon, or worse accuracy, making it a bad medium range weapon. With Bloom they can have a pistol that has a role that works at both ranges.

Yeah I agree, thats sort of what I meant by putting weapons into niche's. The DMR has its niche as medium to long range, the Pistol has its niche closer to short to medium range.

I have to say, despite it working as intended that I think it has detrimental effects on the gunplay as a whole. Sure it serves its purpose, but it comes at the cost of gunplay (in my opinion). Sort of like medicine, it may work for its intended purpose, like helping cure a headache, but is the side effect of feeling dizzy worth it?

Spoiler

Bad analogy, sorry :lol

 

[Shake Appeal]

Sigh.

 

[bobs...onGaf]

Sigh.

OI, I wanted out, but he dragged me back in. =(


Meh, its a beta I have my complaints, and they must expect people to dislike aspects of it. I think its better to voice them than to blindly trust Bungie and then find that I hate the final product - I doubt they will change bloom, but if they can somehow take the luck factor out well thats good enough for me.

 

[EazyB]

So I watched two of the vids this morning (Only two actually Downloaded to my xbox for some reason)

Those random headshots happened in about 1/70 shots, and getting a random luck body shot. I didn't do a full tally, but it seemed like you'd get a lucky headshot about every one in 10 kills, and in those one in ten, it took an average of a magazine and a half to get it. I'm saying 1/70 because I'm dropping 2 shots from the start of each kill to account for the starting accuracy, but not from the second magazine because it doesn't reset your bloom when you reload.

About 6 out of 10 kills you would get 3 body shots to get the kill while the reticle didn't cover the person. These would also take an average of a magazine and a half to maybe 2 full magazines, and in about a 1/4 of those situations you would have to strip shields repeatedly to get a total of 3 body shots.

The Other 3 out of 10 kills were the most interesting, they came from when you would get Red Reticule at some point during the shooting, I'm guessing due to the random kick of the magazine? Once you achieved Red Reticule, standard and headshots landed much more consistently. In those situations you would generally kill within a single magazine. often in 2/3 of the magazine. In one of the vids on sword base, you can see a time where you don't hit a single shot with the reticule off the player, then when the reticule moves just a bit to the left, on the shoulder of the other spartan, and turns red, you hit roughly 3/5 shots.

So it seems the game anchors the spread of your shots to the quality of your aim in some way. I'd love to see some more testing on this stuff, but it will probably have to wait till the fall, as I'm sure this will all be tweaked.

What I did see though, was a system that fundamentally rewarded accuracy and timing. Bad aim and spamming the trigger would require between 3-5 full magazines, each taking nearly a second and a half to pull off to get a single kill. in the meantime, a sure shot pistoler, who keeps their bloom in control should be able to get the kill in about 2 seconds. At the ranges you demonstrated, the player who has better aim, and knowledge of firing rhythm is going to win that fight almost every time. In fact, I'd say they are going to win that fight far more often than they would against AR charges in Halo 3 or against Dual Wielders in Halo 2.

You don't like the feeling of randomness, and no statistical argument is going to change that, but your images also suggest another issue you have with the game, that scrubs (like me) can pull off kills by spamming with poor aim, and I think your vids show pretty well how rare it is to get gift headshots, and difficult it would be to get gift kills against an opponent with any knowledge of how to play.

I'm not sure why you're singling out when a player dies from a shot when the reticule isn't on them to just shots simply landing (whether or not they hit the head). I find the other cases even more interesting because they mean 3 (bodyshots) landed hit the player even though the reticule wasn't on them. I just pulled that screen out because it's the first clear case of it in the single film I watched. I haven't got the chance to go through the films because I opted to play the game more instead and watch them latter so I've held off on analyzing them and unfortunately can't give you a proper response but this was just one result of the bloom that I was interested in (whether the bullet distribution in that wide circle had a uniform or Gaussian distribution) which would give me an idea of just how inaccurate the guns would get. The more important test, which I haven't conducted, would be to plot how long it takes to kill someone when spamming the trigger and see what kind of variance that distribution has.

This random element of the bloom (when someone who is spamming the trigger gets a kill over someone who more methodically times their shots) is what bothers me the most. Many times I'll be at a health disadvantage coming in or at some point in a fight and know my only chance to live is to spam the hell out of the trigger and hope that the game decides to place one of the final bullets into my opponent's head. Sometimes I'm able to take him down in a matter of seconds with a lucky headshot (where the center of the reticule is on his head but the bloom is so severe it will more likely than not fall elsewhere), other times I still die, but the important thing is I'm not doing anything different in either case, I'm just getting "lucky" and other times not.

Another factor that further makes going for a precise headshot by slowing down your shots after dropping their shield is that the opponent can often spam 3 body shots in that time. That coupled with the health system makes precision headshots less important than landing as many bullets on the person by any means necessary (spamming). If another player got even a single bullet's drop on you, you know for damn certain they'll probably be able to spam 3 body shots or the occasional headshot before you have a chance at delivering 4 shots then a precise 5th. Hell, even if you luck out of a firefight with a decent opponent you'll probably have a bit of health damage which means getting body shot in your next encounter is even more likely. All of this contributes to less of an importance on precise headshots and more on landing wild body (and occasional) headshots. I believe I may've gone off on a tangent a bit here but it's just part of the beta that makes me think the gunplay took a huge leap back from where it was.

I think you missed electricpirate's point that no matter what it FEELS like, the average player's 'lucky kill' rate is LOWER in Reach than it is in Halo 3.

I got at least one 'lucky kill' against players CLEARLY better than me in most Halo 3 games - and yet you're still arguing that Reach is more random (less skill-based) than H3. I'm pretty confident that once good gamers have a reasonable number of games under their belts (most of the loudest complainers here have 5000+ H3 games on their service record, compared to fewer than 500 Reach games), they'll find that they're winning MORE often against scrubs like me than they were in Halo 3.

Not sure what you mean by a lucky kill in Halo 3. Surely you don't mean things like lucky nades or sweeping sniper headshots because that's an entirely different subject. Things like latency which throw an element of chance and randomness into the equation can't be avoided but my beef with Reach's bloom is that even in the most ideal situation, the bloom mechanic alone adds that randomness in there. In Halo 3, disregarding lag, your bullets with the precision weapons landed where your reticule specified. There was a build in, random spread to the BR but nothing as severe as a DMR, let alone the pistol, fired at their full RoF. No other Halo game's precision weapons have handled this way and its something I've appreciated about the series and why I've been able to have fun with competitive Halo 3 matches.


I see what Sage/Bungie was trying to do, or at least what the concept of bloom could do to benefit the sandbox. The pistol has the potential to drop someone very quickly at close range because the max RoF is extremely quick but it's not a godly long range weapon because that same RoF would result in wild long range shots. It gives it extremely versatile without it becoming the BR or CE pistol of past games (which evidently made them play like shit?). This is great and all, but it also adds an element of randomness to how the gun performs and makes the gunplay feel looser and less consistent to me. It's trade-off that ultimately hurts the game and I believe it'd work better having the pistol and DMR acting as the two halves of the BR with a little less versatility to each one but much more consistency.

 

[The Librarian]

Hadn't seen this before (probably because I haven't checked Waypoint in awhile), but here's an interview with Nylund about Dr. Halsey's journal that's coming with the special editions of Reach:
http://halo.bungie.org/misc/enylund_interview_04_2010.html

Somewhat unrelated:

Spoiler

I want mah sequel to GoO NOW!

 

[JaggedSac]

Are bullets always fired straight from the viewpoint, or are they fired from the center of the screen and angled towards the base of the bloom? To better explain, is the bloom the base of a cone a certain distance from the player, or is the bloom, the base of a column?

 

[Shake Appeal]

Are bullets always fired straight from the viewpoint, or are they fired from the center of the screen and angled towards the base of the bloom? To better explain, is the bloom the base of a cone a certain distance from the player, or is the bloom, the base of a column?

Technically, with hitscan weapons, bullets... aren't fired at all.

WEEOOOOWEEOOOOTWILIGHTZONE.

 

[chapel]

HaloGAF Reach Beta Montage - Call for Clips!

Got a lot of great clips, but there are some regulars that haven't sent me anything.

BladedExpert???? It is only fitting you send some clips. Since you can capture your own, feel free to send the files using anyhub.net or whatever you prefer.

Due to the beta being extended to tomorrow, I will extend clip submissions until then. Please send me a PM with your RENDERED clips.

New Deadline: 20th

Thanks guys. I should be able to get working on the montage officially (meaning actually editing and composing it) by this weekend. No idea when I will have anything presentable though, I do have a full time job.

 

[EazyB]

Discovered I kept updating my post through the birth of a new page so I'll just copy it to the new page.

So I watched two of the vids this morning (Only two actually Downloaded to my xbox for some reason)

Those random headshots happened in about 1/70 shots, and getting a random luck body shot. I didn't do a full tally, but it seemed like you'd get a lucky headshot about every one in 10 kills, and in those one in ten, it took an average of a magazine and a half to get it. I'm saying 1/70 because I'm dropping 2 shots from the start of each kill to account for the starting accuracy, but not from the second magazine because it doesn't reset your bloom when you reload.

About 6 out of 10 kills you would get 3 body shots to get the kill while the reticle didn't cover the person. These would also take an average of a magazine and a half to maybe 2 full magazines, and in about a 1/4 of those situations you would have to strip shields repeatedly to get a total of 3 body shots.

The Other 3 out of 10 kills were the most interesting, they came from when you would get Red Reticule at some point during the shooting, I'm guessing due to the random kick of the magazine? Once you achieved Red Reticule, standard and headshots landed much more consistently. In those situations you would generally kill within a single magazine. often in 2/3 of the magazine. In one of the vids on sword base, you can see a time where you don't hit a single shot with the reticule off the player, then when the reticule moves just a bit to the left, on the shoulder of the other spartan, and turns red, you hit roughly 3/5 shots.

So it seems the game anchors the spread of your shots to the quality of your aim in some way. I'd love to see some more testing on this stuff, but it will probably have to wait till the fall, as I'm sure this will all be tweaked.

What I did see though, was a system that fundamentally rewarded accuracy and timing. Bad aim and spamming the trigger would require between 3-5 full magazines, each taking nearly a second and a half to pull off to get a single kill. in the meantime, a sure shot pistoler, who keeps their bloom in control should be able to get the kill in about 2 seconds. At the ranges you demonstrated, the player who has better aim, and knowledge of firing rhythm is going to win that fight almost every time. In fact, I'd say they are going to win that fight far more often than they would against AR charges in Halo 3 or against Dual Wielders in Halo 2.

You don't like the feeling of randomness, and no statistical argument is going to change that, but your images also suggest another issue you have with the game, that scrubs (like me) can pull off kills by spamming with poor aim, and I think your vids show pretty well how rare it is to get gift headshots, and difficult it would be to get gift kills against an opponent with any knowledge of how to play.

I'm not sure why you're singling out when a player dies from a shot when the reticule isn't on them to just shots simply landing (whether or not they hit the head). I find the other cases even more interesting because they mean 3 (bodyshots) landed hit the player even though the reticule wasn't on them. I just pulled that screen out because it's the first clear case of it in the single film I watched. I haven't got the chance to go through the films because I opted to play the game more instead and watch them latter so I've held off on analyzing them and unfortunately can't give you a proper response but this was just one result of the bloom that I was interested in (whether the bullet distribution in that wide circle had a uniform or Gaussian distribution) which would give me an idea of just how inaccurate the guns would get. The more important test, which I haven't conducted, would be to plot how long it takes to kill someone when spamming the trigger and see what kind of variance that distribution has.

This random element of the bloom (when someone who is spamming the trigger gets a kill over someone who more methodically times their shots) is what bothers me the most. Many times I'll be at a health disadvantage coming in or at some point in a fight and know my only chance to live is to spam the hell out of the trigger and hope that the game decides to place one of the final bullets into my opponent's head. Sometimes I'm able to take him down in a matter of seconds with a lucky headshot (where the center of the reticule is on his head but the bloom is so severe it will more likely than not fall elsewhere), other times I still die, but the important thing is I'm not doing anything different in either case, I'm just getting "lucky" and other times not.

Another factor that further makes going for a precise headshot by slowing down your shots after dropping their shield is that the opponent can often spam 3 body shots in that time. That coupled with the health system makes precision headshots less important than landing as many bullets on the person by any means necessary (spamming). If another player got even a single bullet's drop on you, you know for damn certain they'll probably be able to spam 3 body shots or the occasional headshot before you have a chance at delivering 4 shots then a precise 5th. Hell, even if you luck out of a firefight with a decent opponent you'll probably have a bit of health damage which means getting body shot in your next encounter is even more likely. All of this contributes to less of an importance on precise headshots and more on landing wild body (and occasional) headshots. I believe I may've gone off on a tangent a bit here but it's just part of the beta that makes me think the gunplay took a huge leap back from where it was.

I think you missed electricpirate's point that no matter what it FEELS like, the average player's 'lucky kill' rate is LOWER in Reach than it is in Halo 3.

I got at least one 'lucky kill' against players CLEARLY better than me in most Halo 3 games - and yet you're still arguing that Reach is more random (less skill-based) than H3. I'm pretty confident that once good gamers have a reasonable number of games under their belts (most of the loudest complainers here have 5000+ H3 games on their service record, compared to fewer than 500 Reach games), they'll find that they're winning MORE often against scrubs like me than they were in Halo 3.

Not sure what you mean by a lucky kill in Halo 3. Surely you don't mean things like lucky nades or sweeping sniper headshots because that's an entirely different subject. Things like latency which throw an element of chance and randomness into the equation can't be avoided but my beef with Reach's bloom is that even in the most ideal situation, the bloom mechanic alone adds that randomness in there. In Halo 3, disregarding lag, your bullets with the precision weapons landed where your reticule specified. There was a build in, random spread to the BR but nothing as severe as a DMR, let alone the pistol, fired at their full RoF. No other Halo game's precision weapons have handled this way and its something I've appreciated about the series and why I've been able to have fun with competitive Halo 3 matches.


I see what Sage/Bungie was trying to do, or at least what the concept of bloom could do to benefit the sandbox. The pistol has the potential to drop someone very quickly at close range because the max RoF is extremely quick but it's not a godly long range weapon because that same RoF would result in wild long range shots. It gives it extremely versatile without it becoming the BR or CE pistol of past games (which evidently made them play like shit?). This is great and all, but it also adds an element of randomness to how the gun performs and makes the gunplay feel looser and less consistent to me. It's trade-off that ultimately hurts the game and I believe it'd work better having the pistol and DMR acting as the two halves of the BR with a little less versatility to each one but much more consistency.

 

[Gui_PT]

HaloGAF Reach Beta Montage - Call for Clips!

Got a lot of great clips, but there are some regulars that haven't sent me anything.

BladedExpert???? It is only fitting you send some clips. Since you can capture your own, feel free to send the files using anyhub.net or whatever you prefer.

Due to the beta being extended to tomorrow, I will extend clip submissions until then. Please send me a PM with your RENDERED clips.

New Deadline: 20th

Thanks guys. I should be able to get working on the montage officially (meaning actually editing and composing it) by this weekend. No idea when I will have anything presentable though, I do have a full time job.

Important
Whoever helped fellow gaffers by rendering their videos for the montage, please PM me so I can make a list to help chapel on the montage

 

[feel]

Sad to be sitting out on this montage, but I really have done nothing worthwhile in the 300+ games I've played... depressing.