Seriously. I'm going to post the map tonight, so if there's not time to describe the minor issue before the trip, I'm going to go ahead and just note a minor tweak is incoming to a soft kill barrier.
I don't know how picky you are but i have found that the map is not quite symmetrical. Some items are out by as much as 6 units, which is about the depth of a player. Ghal, you may want to hold off posting until tomorrow.
I don't know how picky you are but i have found that the map is not quite symmetrical. Some items are out by as much as 6 units, which is about the depth of a player. Ghal, you may want to hold off posting until tomorrow.
It's been a while since I played it so I can't remember exactly, but it seemed that people would just use jetpacks and get on top of the rocks. I don't know how you'd fix it really, besides have 3 spawning areas. One off to the right, one left, and one center.
I watched the film of Surf... pretty close match! even though it was 4v5.
I could see that the cliff was a pretty powerful position, especially in a game type that doesn't require you to push forward off of it. I'm really curious how an asymmetric gametype (CTF or Assault, for instance) would play out. I also think neutral assault could end up being really fun, since I'd have the bomb on the ship and then require people to move to the other team's base. Hmm.
That said, I wonder if even Slayer would be more evened out if I simply took out the cliff area and pushed the Blue Team entirely onto the beach. It would probably make the map a bit more symmetrical and also take out the height advantages from everywhere except for the ship, which I guess is a good thing?
Massive thanks to Nokyard, who helped me iron out the final few creases on Kingdom, and big thanks to HaloGAF for all the testing you've helped me carry out.
some thoughts on matches played... crown of flies (TS) - favorite map of the day, and sounds like its being looked at by the cartographers. get this in matchmaking. original layout that works, games moved well over holding the upper ramp portion overlooking the inner courtyard below, and the area where the sniper spawns just outside. only issue i found was a place on the outside of the map where there is an incline it looks like you could hide under. i was being chased and tried to hide there only to find out the maker had put a softkill zone there. i either think the softkill zone should be removed, or probably better yet, a block or barrier should be there to eliminate the spot entirely if it wasnt meant to be used.
Thanks so much for the review! Glad to hear you liked it; the map has been a labor of love going back to the H3 days. As to the soft kill zone, I felt I had to put it there to eliminate and obvious camping spot. As object density may end up being a factor on CoF, I really don't want to resort to adding another block. At the request of the gentleman who has graciously submitted it to the Community Cartographers, I've already made some reductions to the overall object count if that ever becomes an issue with the testers. Again, thanks so much for the quick review and I'm really happy to hear that you enjoyed yourself.
Massive thanks to Nokyard, who helped me iron out the final few creases on Kingdom, and big thanks to HaloGAF for all the testing you've helped me carry out.
I held off on submitting since this was in the works. I'll shoot it over to the group tonight, after taking some pics to go with it.
Thanks Nokyard for going through the map with your (very) fine tooth comb. I'm also picky about geometry placement.
I finally wrapped up most of the design and detailing on the revised Sandybridge (actual name TBD). Should definately be good to go in customs this coming weekend.
Oh, you guys played on Lookout? Awesome. I'll download the film. If you've got any remarks about it: my plan is to have an updated version ready for you guys to play next week.
I've got an alternate version lined up, as well, lovingly codenamed 'Lookout 2: Electric Boogaloo'. Just kidding, it's called 'Cascade', but it's not very far along in development yet.
Congrats, sik! Looking forward to seeing Kingdom in matchmaking (it should definitely go into matchmaking).
Blue Ninja said:
Oh, you guys played on Lookout? Awesome. I'll download the film. If you've got any remarks about it: my plan is to have an updated version ready for you guys to play next week.
I've got an alternate version lined up, as well, lovingly codenamed 'Lookout 2: Electric Boogaloo'. Just kidding, it's called 'Cascade', but it's not very far along in development yet.
As much as I would love to, it's back to work for me today (6:45am at the mo, and I'm leaving in 5 minutes). I'm sure Bungie may want some changes made, so will tackle it when it comes back for revision.
1) Let's say you've put down two massive spawn zones, one on each side of your map. But you did it a long time ago. How do you find the markers again?
2) When you place a spawn point on the beach, if there's any water at all, it disappears. But if you stick the camera underwater, you can see it there; any amount of water makes it look like it's not there from above the surface. Will those spawns still function?
1) Let's say you've put down two massive spawn zones, one on each side of your map. But you did it a long time ago. How do you find the markers again?
2) When you place a spawn point on the beach, if there's any water at all, it disappears. But if you stick the camera underwater, you can see it there; any amount of water makes it look like it's not there from above the surface. Will those spawns still function?
1) Let's say you've put down two massive spawn zones, one on each side of your map. But you did it a long time ago. How do you find the markers again?
2) When you place a spawn point on the beach, if there's any water at all, it disappears. But if you stick the camera underwater, you can see it there; any amount of water makes it look like it's not there from above the surface. Will those spawns still function?
1) Let's say you've put down two massive spawn zones, one on each side of your map. But you did it a long time ago. How do you find the markers again?
2) When you place a spawn point on the beach, if there's any water at all, it disappears. But if you stick the camera underwater, you can see it there; any amount of water makes it look like it's not there from above the surface. Will those spawns still function?
So, Kingdom is finished (pending any further final feedback... ;o)
Now I'm sitting and thinking about my next project...although part of me is tempted to see what the next map pack is going to include in terms of new Forge spaces.
However, I have a few other projects on the go...
BTB - Odyssey - this had a playtest, and is in need of some revisions/advice on where to take this. If any BTB savants fancy walking around this one and helping me out, that'd be great.
Team Slayer - Atrium - I might change the name but I quite liked this map. ForgeGAF have playtested it, and there were some concerns about the 3rd level resulting in constant jetpacking. I've added in some teleporters to the map that get you up there the same, so I'm interested to see how that would unfold.
Part of me is interested in making a new Asymmetric Team Slayer/Objective Map in Forgeworld or Tempest, using some of the natural geometry to create a kind of "courtyard area with a building to fight around. Maybe a nice tree...
The problem with Lookout seems to be that it does, indeed, funnel all players to the narrow catwalk (and 'penthouse') up top. Once you're there, there's no cover or anything: I once called it a 'slaughterhouse disguised as a Forerunner research installation', and I wasn't far off.
So I'm thinking of building a variant where players are funneled more towards the platform with the floating rock, and lowering the top catwalk a bit. Sound better?
I have now submitted Kingdom to the Community Cartographers group on b.net. I'll let you know how it goes.
This morning I took a few screens of the near-final version of the new map, not yet named. Only the two overview shots updated to bungie.net though, so that's all I have on hand right now since I'm at work.
This is an overhaul of the map I called Sandybridge. I brought it into customs a couple weeks in a row, but it didn't play the way I hoped. Honestly, my heart wasn't in that one because it wasn't a design I was really sold on: rather than make a map I wanted to I had found a space to build and tried to do something with it. It was kind of uninspired and had terrible flow.
The new version leaves the bases stand-alone, with a structure in the center of the water that links the island and beach. To aid player movement, from base there's a pair of man cannons that fire some distance onto the beach and island, respectively. From the middle of the island, there's a man cannon that fires players all the way down to the water structure; a jump on landing gets you to the middle where rockets are. Once on the central structure, a man cannon can launch players right onto each base.
In the center of the beach, and in the central tunnel on the island is a teleporter to move people between them, so you're not locked into staying on one side. From Beach, there's five ways up to the middle: onto the two towers, up the middle, and a sneaky way up the rocks next to them.
Overall map flow should be more of a figure eight: at game start players will flow around to the island and onto the beach, and clash at multiple points in the middle. Rocket rushes will collide in a C-shape, rather than head-on.
A Revenant and two Mongoose are available, though the former will likely be contained to the beach and base areas.
I think it will play better than Sandybridge did, though I'm not sure how much. I've got some final tweaks, and then about half the spawns and weapons to replace.
That looks really nice, Ghaleon. Might give it a try later.
The only problem I have with Forge now is that everything you build is a Forerunner structure. There's no way to play with the terrain, you just have to work with what you're given. Having to condense my (often grand) imagination into that can often be hard.
The only problem I have with Forge now is that everything you build is a Forerunner structure. There's no way to play with the terrain, you just have to work with what you're given. Having to condense my (often grand) imagination into that can often be hard.
Agree. I tried to pick an open space this time around and minimize the indoors - there really isn't any - so as to make the view as diverse as Forge World allows. It's a better visual theme than rusty cargo crates and sandstone, but a lot of maps have what I call 'metal dungeon' syndrome. I had originally built the middle using some of the Building pieces with some additions, but I decided I liked the view the open layout affords, so I scaled it back to a single plane and blocked in the cover as minimally as possible.
Would be great if there's another big Forge space in the next map pack, even if it's just a big open field that's off to the side of the normal map space.
Apologies for the late feedback from Customs last weekend (take solace that we got it out earlier than last time and we'll be doing our best to get it out earlier in future!).
Bregopticon WIP
Design | Center too open; corner man cannons didn't seem to serve a purpose, sent player into wall. Steep ramps with breaks in them on the sides akward to navigate.
Forging | Use of flat walls makes for plain looking map. Good flow around the outside.
Function | Many spawns face walls; weapons can't be picked up after first time (fixed physics?)
Trestle.b
Design | Still feels cramped, combat takes place in the same areas on the top floor most of the time
Forging | So uneven surfaces and awkward walkways
Truss.4
Design | Teams tend to camp up in one or two heightened locations for tactical reasons - most of the map goes unused except for the odd game of cat and mouse
Surf
Design | Combat around the ship is better than in it - design is hard to navigate. Places where you can hide underwater.
Forging | Ship is good looking but clumsy to navigate.
It's funny, most people (myself included), hated Halo 3's tendency to just have Human maps and were clamoring for Forerunner ones. Now it's the opposite.
Funny how that works. :V
(nice article btw, though I think my map scribbles are worse than yours)
And because I didn't have power or internet yesterday, here's my whining about maps:
Lookout: Playing Free For All on it was a lot better than playing a team game, but the central walkway was still the focus point. The screenshot for Lookout II: Electric Boogaloo (I don't care if it's called Cascade, I'm going to call it Electric Boogaloo because it sounds cooler!) seems to show that the central point won't be the walkway, even though it seems like it's at the same point as Guardian's and Lockout's center structure, but at the buildings, and probably the lower dancefloor.
Bereavement: I loved this, even though we played it with about 14 people inside the tower. I'd maybe make the top most kill zone a bit higher, since I noticed that it wasn't just me hitting it when jetpacking up (other than that, look at Nokyard's post)
Bulldogs: There's really not much to say other than it was really, really fun. The only bug I saw was not the map's fault but the game's (one person wasn't moving without any weapons).
Bikini Atoll: I think Nokyard fixed the map to work with Vanilla Gaffball, but when we tried to do Vanilla Griffball, the game said it wasn't compatible with the gametype. :s
Moonpool: Even though we played this with only three people after ForgeGAF customs was properly over, it managed to not have any slowdown in the middle, and it wasn't chaotic (because we only had 3 people), but the shotgun and sword seemed to be a bit too powerful. I've always loved this map in it's different variations, so I'm a bit biased. Hopefully next week we'll test out either 8(+?) FFA, or 4v4 1 Flag on it. Though, I'm not sure I like how small the columns up to the top middle are, maybe make those be two columns wide? Plus the map seems to be too low for Elites.
Please, oh please tell me the bottom pool area with the green is a homage to Marathon/Vulcan's terminal room
Surf: People have already said the same thing about the blue side being higher than the ship, and about the death wall, which you've said are already being fixed. To me, the beach was really too open. I only entered the ship once, and promptly got my face blasted off with a shotgun, so I don't know what it's like navigating the ship, and don't know if there's any reason to go into it. Though, I'll echo the sediments about seeing what it's like in 1 Flag/Bomb.
Enforcer Factory: Still love it, still lament not being able to have a mancannon forge piece like the lifts on Lockout/Guardian.
Truss: ForgeGAF didn't get to Trestle, but we did play two games on this. Like Dani and other's said above, the map is better to navigate, but the map centers around the teams/dominating team getting on the heightened platforms to the sides and suppressing the other team to their base. The size didn't help this when we played regular Slayer (which would be better suited for Trestle, I believe), but Team DMRs was only slightly better, but it made camping those middle platforms easier. There's also a lift to one side of each base which I think sends you up to the top of the base, but it's in a spot where you don't see it until you get close to it.
As for moving on from Truss/Trestle, I'd like to see Trestle worked on as opposed to Truss, since I think their design works better for 4v4-6v6.
Crown of Flies/Kingdom: Really glad the Cartographers have sent these two into the group. They really deserve to be in matchmaking.
Roost: Whoever made this horrible abomination of a map needs to be hanged, and then shot and killed. Then shot some more.
Kidding*.
Roost didn't play as well as I thought it would. The juicy filter was mistakenly kept in, and has been removed. I heard that some people liked how open the bottom middle was, but I don't remember who it was that said it was too open. I've debated putting some cover there, but then it'd be too crowded. I noticed nobody really used the bottom area near active camo, but they did use the rocket platform and walkways. And Overshield was picked up whenever it came up, so that's good.
The teleporters were better than the last time we played on Roost, but they now basically serve as a straight path. I think I'm definitely going to take them out, but I'm going to try to find a way to put them on the Overshield platform.
Nokyard's suggestion to pull the circular area in the back of the base in more looks better than it being somewhat far away, but that was a area I've always thought of just getting rid of entirely. Plus the back walkway didn't get used that much. Spawn areas were pretty bad in the sense that in CTF people spawned near the flag when it was being grabbed, making the match turn into a standoff. The map was intended to make standoffs, but in the sense of giving a potentially worse team some way of coming back against a team that's way out of their league. Not where it's impossible to score.
Snipers were too powerful when defending the base, and were only brought into the map because of having them there in the once played, but horrible Halo 3 version. I don't know if me taking them off of the map entirely is the best, but putting one in bottom middle would just be putting way too many power weapons on the map, which I still think is a bit too much. Rockets, with Camo below them, with the Overshield on the other side with Grenade Launcher on the middle bridge still seems too much, and to me, sniper beneath the launcher seems like overkill.
I'm going to definitely rebuild the map, but first I'd like to test around with some tweaks, and I'd like to hear more suggestions on it, and maybe have someone (Ghal? Nokyard?) come in forge and help me.
Moonpool: Even though we played this with only three people after ForgeGAF customs was properly over, it managed to not have any slowdown in the middle, and it wasn't chaotic (because we only had 3 people), but the shotgun and sword seemed to be a bit too powerful.
I took your advice and kicked the shotty down to a single clip. I also added 15 seconds on the spawn time. Since the rockets are gone, it's now the most accessable power weapon, and since Moonpool is such a small, tight map, it's clearly the most deadly. I'm a shotgun whore, so I like tiny maps and narrow hallways.
I'm not sure on the Sword since it's already in a pretty tricky spot when you have 8 players in there. I'll certainly keep it in mind and maybe increase the spawn time on it as well.
These are both new comments for me, so it means we're getting past performance issues and into gameplay issues... yay!
I'm also considering taking out the DMRs (there are four, 2 in each pool room) and replacing them with something with a closer effective range. There are just a few areas where they're good (both pool rooms, mostly) but I think Pistols fit the bill nicely enough. Maybe toss some more covenant weapons in there, right now all I have are the Concussion Rifles and Needlers (I think there might be a Plasma Repeater in there too).
Edit #2: I'm also not sure I want the Active Camo powerup on the top level, I'm not sold that it's fair or even useful on this particular map. I dunno what to replace it with though, it needs to be useful but not too powerful. Stealth definitely seems like an unfair advantage, especially if you race into the center area and grab it and the shotty.
ZayneH said:
I've always loved this map in it's different variations, so I'm a bit biased.
I'll have to get flags setup. They were working at one point, but the team spawns were fucking terrible so I stepped back a version so I could start in on them from scratch. Something about anti-spawn zones fucking hated me.
ZayneH said:
Though, I'm not sure I like how small the columns up to the top middle are, maybe make those be two columns wide? Plus the map seems to be too low for Elites.
They may be a bit too narrow, but I'm hesitant to drop much more geometry in that center area. They're supposed to be pretty difficult to get up so you can't just dash up to the top from below. I can look at it, of course, and we can test it.
As for the Elites, yes. That particular area in the lower level you pointed out is a headache because of the water level. It was working fine before but I'm pretty sure I was down there getting something tweaked and accidentally shifted something off. Working underwater sucks.
ZayneH said:
Please, oh please tell me the bottom pool area with the green is a homage to Marathon/Vulcan's terminal room
I love Marathon, one of the few fine examples where we old school Mac users could say "Look, we got a fucking awesome game too". So few instances of that though. /sadface.
I'm not sure it was an intentional homage, but Marathon was definitely on my mind when I was putting Moonpool 1 together (especially since it's so dark), so that probably carried over into the recreation.
Edit: Moonpool's introductory post refers to it as the "Networking room"... I was probably thinking of terminals too... heh, wow, I guess I had that rattling around in there all along.
It's funny, most people (myself included), hated Halo 3's tendency to just have Human maps and were clamoring for Forerunner ones. Now it's the opposite.
Funny how that works. :V
(nice article btw, though I think my map scribbles are worse than yours)
I went back and forth on including the drawing, since it's so crude, but did so in the interest of showing my design process, such as it is. That's the point of the series, after all.
I'm going to be online today on and off (both in Forge and for the Campaign daily challenge), and if you spot me just shoot an invite or hop in. I'd love to help out if I can.
I love Marathon, one of the few fine examples where we old school Mac users could say "Look, we got a fucking awesome game too". So few instances of that though. /sadface.
Bungie really was the only developer (besides Blizzard) that did Mac games. Myth and Oni come to mind, but I never liked Oni due to how it controlled.
But now we have 5+ year old games on Steam thanks to Valve!
Oh.
:[
Jobs!!!!
As for spawns for CTF, where would you put the flag/bomb away spawns at? Also, when could you be online soon-ish?
GhaleonEB said:
Thank you for saying this. :lol
I went back and forth on including the drawing, since it's so crude, but did so in the interest of showing my design process, such as it is. That's the point of the series, after all.
I'm going to be online today on and off (both in Forge and for the Campaign daily challenge), and if you spot me just shoot an invite or hop in. I'd love to help out if I can.
Yep. I might scan my Roost sketch, and my early Aurora/Downpour sketches. I used to stay up late at night and draw rough versions, then finish them up a week later. I'll try to catch you if I get on (and if I didn't fling my wii remote into my tv)
Bereavement: I loved this, even though we played it with about 14 people inside the tower. I'd maybe make the top most kill zone a bit higher, since I noticed that it wasn't just me hitting it when jetpacking up (other than that, look at Nokyard's post)
Yeah, that's the first thing I changed after skimming through the video you provided. I made fixed and realigned some walls and small visual changes as well.
Lookout: Playing Free For All on it was a lot better than playing a team game, but the central walkway was still the focus point. The screenshot for Lookout II: Electric Boogaloo (I don't care if it's called Cascade, I'm going to call it Electric Boogaloo because it sounds cooler!) seems to show that the central point won't be the walkway, even though it seems like it's at the same point as Guardian's and Lockout's center structure, but at the buildings, and probably the lower dancefloor.
I'm not sure about how well Cascade would actually play. It's supposed to be a small-sized FFA/Team Arena, basically, but I'm fearing it'll just become a major camp-fest in the building. I'll probably move the Shotgun from where it was in Lookout to prevent this, I'm not sure yet.
Anyways, tomorrow is Forge day: I'm gonna do my best to have Cascade finished. Only way to find out if something works is to test it.
Nearing the final elements of my one side map in the Alaskan area in Forge World. Hitting some budget woes, so I'm trying to seep some blocks or other items down to a minimum. The one idea I'm having is a Ghost for the defensive side and just Mongoose and one primary heavy weapon, the Rockets, on the map. Still unsure how the human Sniper Rifle will fit in, but I do want the Focus Rifle in.
I'll have to put it in my file share soon and let one of you guys check it out. Spawns are pretty much placed although I haven't really touched upon the other kill volumes minus an area or two. That's probably going to be the biggest obstacle.
Greetings Reclaimer. I am 49 F#cking Lightbulb. I am the Monitor of this Installation. It is good you have come, we have much to do!
Welcome to Reaction Station 6. Your predecessor affectionately called it "Deluge".
This station once had an important function: the energy it extracted fueled my Creator's conquest of the stars and their struggles against the Flood. Ever since the Array was activated, however, it has fallen into disrepair.
As you can see, much of the original infrastructure, originally based upon the Lookout Installation, remains intact. However, your predecessor has made many adjustments to the layout of the station. The influences of the Lockout, Guardian and Ascension stations are clearly visible. The effectiveness of these changes, however, is not mine to judge. That is where you come in, Reclaimer.
Protocol dictates action. This station cannot remain in disrepair much longer. I need you, and as many of your compatriots as possible, to judge the layout of this station. Movement, sight lines, everything that makes a successful station. Anything you find out of order should immediately be reported. Together, we can make this station function at utmost efficiency.
Don't worry about getting there, Reclaimer. I've arranged for your immediate transportation. Just follow this portal, and you'll find yourself where you need to be. Good luck, Reclaimer, and most importantly, have fun.
All right, time to step out of character real quickly. What I'm most concerned about here are sight lines, and especially the amount of cover I've got. Is it enough, too much, or just right? Secondly, what about weapon placement? How can it be improved? What about the spawn points? Right now, Deluge is set up for Slayer and Team Slayer (no Multi-Team yet). Play it, and let me know!
Queued for download, Blue Ninja. I have a couple suggestions on sight lines from the pictures, but I want to fly around a bit to get a better feel for them first.
"The influences of the Lockout, Guardian and Ascension stations are clearly visible."
I guess, since the Cage is based on Lockout, this might have some things in common with it. But I'm not really familiar with the layout of the Cage anymore.
Flags would go in the red and blue bases. That's what they were designed for.
As for being online, any time Friday during the day work for ya? I'm Eastern time, so... 9 to 3 PM, roughly. Today was kind of wonky since I was up late and slept in.
Here's a download of my 1-side map, Reliance, if anybody's interested in checking it out. Will have to adjust more things later, namely the soft kill and hard kill zones. If all goes well on that, it would be cool to set it up in GAF's customs. On paper I think it will work well for 4v4 but I think 6v6 could vie also. Right now it's setup for Slayer, 1-CTF, 1-Bomb, and Territories.
