Support NeoGAF

[GhaleonEB]

I'd mostly agree with you on this, since I didn't use a lot of any of these - but I knew people who swore by one or another, and did so for verifiable reasons (clip size, secondary effects like shield stripping, etc).

Hmm. I found these to be really different, and I favored one or the other depending on how I was playing that day. (There was an Action Sack game that started one team off with human snipers, but placed Covie ones on the map - I would often swap. Zeus something.) Human Sniper didn't overheat, but required reloading after 4 shots. Covie sniper could shoot until it was empty, if you didn't go too fast, no reload. If you hit your first or second shot consistently, the human sniper is a better choice. If you're like me, you sometimes need that 5th shot... with a human sniper, the guy's behind cover after the reload.

Heh. I could write the exact inverse of this post, noting how I never found much difference between the sniper and beam rifles, but I always tossed the AR as fast as humanly possible for an SMG in Halo 3. As you said, the nuances matter to the people who used them.

It's a key component of skill, but it's only the mechanical part. You can train a monkey to aim at something and push a button quickly.

There are other components to skill:

Skill is adapting to a changing battlefield on the fly.

Skill is choosing the right weapon for the job, and using it effectively.

Skill is knowing when to engage, when to retreat and reacquire.

Skill is using the environment and equipment (grenades, AAs, whatever) to maneuver the battle into the range/situation that benefits your weapon(s).

Skill to be is having somebody get the drop on you and being able to win the exchange regardless.

Skill is decision making - weighing the advantages and disadvantages of each AA for example, and choosing the right one for your play-style, your role on the team, or to counter the AAs being used by opponents.

Skill is communicating and coordinating with a team.

If skill were purely and entirely a matter of shooting the other guy in the face before he shoots you, then the only FPS that tests skill would be one where 1v1 battles were fought with a single weapon in a large, white, cubic room.

I think this is exactly right in concept, though Dani has pointed out the ways Reach violoates some of these principles. I'm pretty good at most of these things - with the exception of the shooting guys in the face part. It's for that reason that I prefer tasks that require advance planning and rapid improvization over pure BR/DMR battles. I'm a pretty good flag thief and vehicle killer, beacuse I plan out my approach and select my tools carefully. If I get in a 1 on 1 DMR fight, most of the time I die.

Random tangent:

On the AR/DMR topic, it all really comes down to the fact that Halo differentiates between precision weapons which can headshot, and those that cannot. The moment that design decision was made, the automatic/non headshot weapons got hard to balance, because a precision weapon will always be superior once shields are down. Always. To compensate, weapons like the AR need to be powerful and have decent range, otherwise they'll have no role. In Reach, the AR has both range and power. It's actually useful, which urks players who don't think any weapon which doesn't allow headshots do not also require skill. (Which is not true.)

It's that time of the month again, isn't it?

 

[Tashi]

Heh. I could write the exact inverse of this post, noting how I never found much difference between the sniper and beam rifles, but I always tossed the AR as fast as humanly possible for an SMG in Halo 3. As you said, the nuances matter to the people who used them.


I think this is exactly right in concept, though Dani has pointed out the ways Reach violoates some of these principles. I'm pretty good at most of these things - with the exception of the shooting guys in the face part. It's for that reason that I prefer tasks that require advance planning and rapid improvization over pure BR/DMR battles. I'm a pretty good flag thief and vehicle killer, beacuse I plan out my approach and select my tools carefully. If I get in a 1 on 1 DMR fight, most of the time I die.

Random tangent:

On the AR/DMR topic, it all really comes down to the fact that Halo differentiates between precision weapons which can headshot, and those that cannot. The moment that design decision was made, the automatic/non headshot weapons got hard to balance, because a precision weapon will always be superior once shields are down. Always. To compensate, weapons like the AR need to be powerful and have decent range, otherwise they'll have no role. In Reach, the AR has both range and power. It's actually useful, which urks players who don't think any weapon which doesn't allow headshots do not also require skill. (Which is not true.)

It's that time of the month again, isn't it?

I'm the same way. I mean, most of you probably think I have a really good shot but by my standards, I don't. I'd like to think it's everything else that makes me a good player.

 

[Steelyuhas]

It's actually useful, which urks players who don't think any weapon which doesn't allow headshots do not also require skill. (Which is not true.)

That AR would be fine if it wasn't retarded easy to use. If it started with a very small spread that got huge quickly if you held down the trigger, forcing players to actually be accurate and fire is short bursts then I would be okay with it. As it is now though, the weapon is awful because all a player has to do is aim in a general direction and down down the trigger.

I'm the same way. I mean, most of you probably think I have a really good shot but by my standards, I don't. I'd like to think it's everything else that makes me a good player.

Host makes you a good player.

 

[Louis Wu]

Edit: Damn it, Dani. I'm almost done writing this article. Stop using up all of the good arguments against AAs before I can publish it.

I'd disagree that they're good arguments any more. I almost never see Armor Lock any more. It's been pulled out of lots of playlists, and folks are finding that it's not the superpower they were led to believe it would be. Bubble chains are gone, too.

And the concept that "[e]veryone can fly, as much as they want, whenever they want" is laughable - I've played a bunch of Powerhouse games in Arena recently, and it's hilarious to watch how fast the jetpackers get wiped out. I was playing with my son last night, and I couldn't believe how often I saw 'GuatWarrior killed W0RT' run across the left side of my screen.

It's taken a long time, I'll certainly grant you that - but I feel like Armor Abillities have finally come close to being somewhat balanced in most lists. I haven't had a ton of "how cheap is THAT!" moments recently.

 

[xxjuicesxx]

Umm I yell at bloom a lot but I do like it. I'd probably like it way more on LAN though.

I get mad sometimes when I shoot someone maybe 2 or 3 times then they turn around and all of a sudden the bloom stops working even though I'm pacing my shots quite nicely, I have a strange suspicion its just them strafing too fast but I can't see it because my screen doesn't show it, basically internet bullshit. It makes me mad though.

I like it but I dunno sometimes it seems like I can just five shot so fast and others it seems like I have to wait a whole minute in between my shots because the bloom has just stopped going back to normal. I believe that's internet bullshit too but its very frustrating.

 

[Steelyuhas]

Umm I yell at bloom a lot but I do like it. I'd probably like it way more on LAN though.

I get mad sometimes when I shoot someone maybe 2 or 3 times then they turn around and all of a sudden the bloom stops working even though I'm pacing my shots quite nicely, I have a strange suspicion its just them strafing too fast but I can't see it because my screen doesn't show it, basically internet bullshit. It makes me mad though.

I like it but I dunno sometimes it seems like I can just five shot so fast and others it seems like I have to wait a whole minute in between my shots because the bloom has just stopped going back to normal. I believe that's internet bullshit too but its very frustrating.

I don't mind the concept of bloom at all, I just think the execution is pretty poor in Reach. Players who pace their shots (or fire in short bursts with auto weapons) are not nearly rewarded enough for doing so.

 

[KidA Seven]

That AR would be fine if it wasn't retarded easy to use. If it started with a very small spread that got huge quickly if you held down the trigger, forcing players to actually be accurate and fire is short bursts then I would be okay with it. As it is now though, the weapon is awful because all a player has to do is aim in a general direction and down down the trigger.




Host makes you a good player.

That's why I prefer the Shadowrun SMG. You really have to burst fire. In Halo, it's better to burst fire, but the difference isn't as big as in Shadowrun.

 

[GhaleonEB]

That AR would be fine if it wasn't retarded easy to use. If it started with a very small spread that got huge quickly if you held down the trigger, forcing players to actually be accurate and fire is short bursts then I would be okay with it. As it is now though, the weapon is awful because all a player has to do is aim in a general direction and down down the trigger.

This is the trade off I was trying to touch on. If you limit the AR more by increasing the spread for sustained fire, it becomes useless at anything other than super close range. Imagine if an AR user had to fire pulses, and was trading blows with a DMR user. They're even right until the AR user's shields drop, at which point the DMR wins due to its ability to land a headshot; the AR would need several more pulses in order to land the kill. If you limit the AR in this way, it becomes even more of a close range, special purpose weapon, used much less often. It might as well be a shotgun at that point. The only way to make it more useful is to enable it to kill players at decent range before someone can four shot their shields off and land the headshot. Which is what Reach does.

I'd disagree that they're good arguments any more. I almost never see Armor Lock any more. It's been pulled out of lots of playlists, and folks are finding that it's not the superpower they were led to believe it would be. Bubble chains are gone, too.

But the reason they were pulled from the playlists was because of how they worked. All that argument does is point out that the playlist designer agrees they were over powered in many situations, which just suppports Dani's arguments.

 

[squidhands]

It's that time of the month again, isn't it?

Full moon, baby!

 

[The Antitype]

I'll take quality over quantity. You could have a million unique AA's and weapons to fit a million unique roles and give the player millions of possible actions, doesn't automatically make the game better.

Again, quality over quantity. I don't care how many weapons are in a game, so long as the game is fair and fun.

Again, I made the point of saying that once you reach a certain number of weapons, you have overlap in the sandbox and that becomes a problem. It is not a problem in Reach. Bloom is part of the reason why.

Go ahead and train a monkey to out DMR someone. Or out BR someone. Or out snipe someone. You are diminishing a significant part of a first person shooting game because it befits your argument. The primary aim of a FPS is to shoot your opponent. If anything takes away from this important aspect of the game, it diminishes the overall quality of the game significantly.

I never said it wasn't an important part. He made a sarcastic comment about breathing being a skill in order to diminish my argument, I returned the favor. Don't play favorites.

My argument was simply that skill is not solely defined by shooting dudes in the face as fast as possible. We can argue all day and make a pie-chart about what the perfect mix of skills is for the best FPS.

Adding layers of strategy, tactical wrinkles and opportunities for team communication does not diminish the overall quality of a game. Team Fortress 2, ShadowRun and a litany of other class-based games full of special abilities are great games, and some would even argue their core shooting mechanics are lacking.
[/quote]

You can do this in every other Halo game too.

I'm only going to quote this once, and answer it once. I never said you couldn't.

Wrong. I could get the drop on you with Rockets, you could Armour Lock and by sheer luck, repel the rocket back at me. Or accidently bounce my own grenade back at me. Or you could just wait in Armour Lock for your buddies to come along and help kill me. Even if it's a simple content and each of us are using the same weapon and firing upon each other at the same time, if you go into Armour Lock, you get that frosting effect which lets you absorb more damage and it's an easy win. Or maybe you'd EMP me and melee beat down straight away. None of that is skillful yet under your terms you'd define as such.

AAs are only one way in which a player that uses the equipment at their disposal. To be honest I wasn't even thinking of them. I was thinking of a DMR player getting the drop on a player that has a pistol/AR, and that player using cover/terrain, grenades, and skill (yes, headshots are a skill, I never said they weren't), to close the distance on their attacker or lure them into close-combat.

And this ability to fight back against players is another 'you could do that in any Halo'. I never said it wasn't. But the weapons in Reach fit into their roles better, which makes turning that advantage around possible. In the case of the BR or the Halo: CE pistol, for example, those weapons are so versatile, that even in close-combat against the AR they still had the advantage.

And as for the random armor lock moments, yes they are there. But Halo has always had these random emergent gameplay moments, from exploding barrels flying across the map and hitting somebody (or traffic cones, for that matter), or warthogs jumping and flipping in such a way as to create a completely memorable but unrepeatable sequence. AAs are no worse about it.

Your example is horrible. It's that kind of thinking that produces bubble chains in CTF games and entire teams with Armour Lock in vehicle maps. It removes fun completely and replaces it with an abusive mess.

Armour Abilities are super powers. Flying, running faster, becoming invisible, invincibility. Most of these super powers have always existed in Halo with one key difference - they had to be fought over or controlled. If wanted the super power, you had to fight the other team to get it and win control. You had to time it. You had to think and fight for it.

Reach simply hands out these super powers to everyone at any time. Everyone can fly, as much as they want, whenever they want. It's like playing a game of Rockets/Lasers - when everyone has a super weapon it becomes boring and tedious. Instead of being surprised every now and then by a tactical deployment of a super power at just the right moment to change the tide of a battle, it happens every second. You can't be surprised anymore because you're expecting it. It becomes abusive too when whole teams start using the same AA and the only option is for your team to do the same or get abused by the other team.

Bubble-shield chaining was an issue with one particular AA, not an issue with AAs across the board. Make bubble-shields a once-per-spawn AA or increase the time significantly and the issue is significantly marginalized.

Every AA comes with pros and cons. They can be used effectively or stupidly. They are super-powers, but they are only one power with a specific use that bars the player from the advantages that any of the others provide.

Armor lock, for example. Aside from the obvious pros (last-ditch life-saving effort) and cons (immobile, lights up like a xmas tree), the armor lock user is without the following:

He cannot sprint. He will not be able to get to weapons as fast, flank as effectively, chase down the flag as quickly, or chase sprinting players that are fleeing.

He cannot evade. He was forfeited the ability to roll into and out of combat quickly, which we would probably love if he happens to pick up a shotty or something.

He cannot camo. He will be unable to sneak past enemy players, or ambush them as well as those who have that ability.

He cannot jet-pack. He cannot quickly ascend to the higher points on maps, break map control by teams holding down choke-points, etc.

He cannot use the hologram...for whatever reason he would want to, I've never used the damn thing.

ALL of these losses can be used against the armor lock player. Or any other AA user. And every AA has its pros and cons, whether its recharge time, range at which they're effective, noise production, radar bullshit, whatever.

The lack of surprise doesn't hurt the variety. Going from battling against an armor lock user to battling against a jet-pack user is still variety, even if I have an idea of how they'll use their ability.

@Nutter, I'll answer your questions in abit, I missed that post and I have to actually go to lunch soon.

 

[The Librarian]

That AR would be fine if it wasn't retarded easy to use. If it started with a very small spread that got huge quickly if you held down the trigger, forcing players to actually be accurate and fire is short bursts then I would be okay with it. As it is now though, the weapon is awful because all a player has to do is aim in a general direction and down down the trigger.

That would make it useless. The DMR user would win every time.

 

[Slightly Live]

I'd disagree that they're good arguments any more. I almost never see Armor Lock any more. It's been pulled out of lots of playlists, and folks are finding that it's not the superpower they were led to believe it would be. Bubble chains are gone, too.

And the concept that "[e]veryone can fly, as much as they want, whenever they want" is laughable - I've played a bunch of Powerhouse games in Arena recently, and it's hilarious to watch how fast the jetpackers get wiped out. I was playing with my son last night, and I couldn't believe how often I saw 'GuatWarrior killed W0RT' run across the left side of my screen.

It's taken a long time, I'll certainly grant you that - but I feel like Armor Abillities have finally come close to being somewhat balanced in most lists. I haven't had a ton of "how cheap is THAT!" moments recently.

I think you're proving the point I was trying to make. By your own admission, Reach is getting better because they are removing AA's.

Have you ever played against a really good team, at least equal or better than your own team and have that team all use the same AA together? I've seen it happen plenty of times. They force the opposite team to do the same. It's frustrating. You may laugh at the single guy jetpacking as he gets shot down. Happens all the time, but have the entire enemy team doing it to you, lobbing grenades and disappearing across the tops of maps before you can retaliate and I'm sure you'll find that experience as unpleasant as I and many other have.

Heck, bubble chains would still be present in the game in Objective had I not made a specific complaint about it (as I am led to believe).

Reach is definitely getting better as the AA's start to disappear, starting with the most obviously broken ones such as Armour Lock and Drop Shield. But this is forcing players to learn to abuse the other ones such as Evade (shotgun/sword/hammer combo FTL), Camo (Camo Sniping, camping and hiding) and Jetpacking (many maps in Halo were never intended to have that ability present on the map, so it totally breaks the flow of maps such as Reflections and this is multiplied when whole teams do so).

Removing AA's won't "fix Reach (I've grown to like Sprint and depend on it a lot) as there will always be issues folks disagree about (bloom and nuke nades) but it really feels as if AA's were designed exclusively for use in the Campaign with multiplayer considerations thrown aside. Equipment didn't work well in Halo 3's campaign but they did in multiplayer for the most part. AA's in Reach work well for campaign for the most part but don't work well in multiplayer.

If they restricted AA's use in multiplayer similar to equipment in Halo 3, I don't even think we'd having this conversation.

 

[Account Attempt #4]

I don't mind the concept of bloom at all, I just think the execution is pretty poor in Reach. Players who pace their shots (or fire in short bursts with auto weapons) are not nearly rewarded enough for doing so.

I agree with this post. Unless you have quite a bit of range between yourself and your opponent, you'll rarely see the benefits of controlling bloom.

 

[ncsuDuncan]

I'd disagree that they're good arguments any more. I almost never see Armor Lock any more. It's been pulled out of lots of playlists, and folks are finding that it's not the superpower they were led to believe it would be. Bubble chains are gone, too.

And the concept that "[e]veryone can fly, as much as they want, whenever they want" is laughable - I've played a bunch of Powerhouse games in Arena recently, and it's hilarious to watch how fast the jetpackers get wiped out. I was playing with my son last night, and I couldn't believe how often I saw 'GuatWarrior killed W0RT' run across the left side of my screen.

It's taken a long time, I'll certainly grant you that - but I feel like Armor Abillities have finally come close to being somewhat balanced in most lists. I haven't had a ton of "how cheap is THAT!" moments recently.

All very good points.

I will admit that Armor Lock is less abundant these days, but I still occasionally make the mistake of picking Team Slayer instead of Squad Battle and I pay for it dearly with gnashed teeth. And after a second look I don't necessarily agree with everything Dani said, he was just hitting some notes that rhymed with what I'm writing. I'm hoping to get this article finished tonight or tomorrow, but a major point is that I don't have a problem with Armor Abilities overall, I just dislike certain aspects of how they were implemented in Reach (and yes, playlist selection is one small part of that).

 

[GhaleonEB]

Skill is decision making - weighing the advantages and disadvantages of each AA for example, and choosing the right one for your play-style, your role on the team, or to counter the AAs being used by opponents.

This entire discussion, and that point in particular, reminds me of Jaime Griesemer's post about game balance, and counters.

•Creating a Counter – Another common way to address an overpowered element is to design a second element whose sole role is to counter the first. Not only is this second element probably not fun on its own merits, but everyone will be saddled with choosing an option that they secretly hope they don’t have to employ, just to prevent everyone else from choosing the fun option they desperately want. I will choose the unenjoyable anti-tank mine so that nobody else can have fun using a tank.​

http://thetipofthesphere.com/2011/03/28/shorting-the-fun/

I don't want to have to use AA's I don't like in order to counter what the other team is using, because I don't like using most of the AA's. For example, how do you counter that dude with evade and hammer? Armor lock, or evade myself, both of which I hate. Dudes jetpacking to camping zones? Better start flying yourself. Which I don't like to do. I should not have to do something unfun in order to counter something someone else is doing.

Having to pick unfun counters to thinks that people get to choose right off spawn sucks, and it's why I'm enjoying the playlists like Flagstravagana, which pulll most of those things out. Every time I play a game where one team is using a particular AA extensively, I get this sinking feeling because the way to counter that is to lug something around I don't like using.

That's at the heart of Dani's point about how super powers used to be fought over, which is way more interesting - and more fun - than what takes place in Reach.

 

[Slightly Live]

And as for the random armor lock moments, yes they are there. But Halo has always had these random emergent gameplay moments, from exploding barrels flying across the map and hitting somebody (or traffic cones, for that matter), or warthogs jumping and flipping in such a way as to create a completely memorable but unrepeatable sequence. AAs are no worse about it.

I find it both amusing and disappointing that you'd classify AA's as "emergent gameplay"

You might see a guy in Armour Lock fighting a guy using a jet pack and think to yourself that this is the pinnacle of modern Halo's emergent gameplay. I see the same situation and wonder how the hell could the creator of Halo mess up the core game so badly that we now have instant invincibility buttons and a flying ability that ignores ten years of Halo multiplayer map design philosophy.

 

[Steelyuhas]

This is the trade off I was trying to touch on. If you limit the AR more by increasing the spread for sustained fire, it becomes useless at anything other than super close range. Imagine if an AR user had to fire pulses, and was trading blows with a DMR user. They're even right until the AR user's shields drop, at which point the DMR wins due to its ability to land a headshot; the AR would need several more pulses in order to land the kill. If you limit the AR in this way, it becomes even more of a close range, special purpose weapon, used much less often. It might as well be a shotgun at that point. The only way to make it more useful is to enable it to kill players at decent range before someone can four shot their shields off and land the headshot. Which is what Reach does.

Good at bolded. Put some shooting skill back into Halo.

The AR's main role should be clean up kills and short range. Like it was in Halo CE, and like the SMG was in Halo 2.

The fact that I have to go no shields in Reach using a DMR or Magnum at mid range against an AR is horrible for the individual skill gap of the game. If a player can barely survive a 1v1 fight, the winner of a 1v1 fight is just cleanup material, no matter how good they are. This is my main complaint with H3 and Reach, the individual player cannot shine due to weapons such as the AR having similar kill times to the precision weapons despite being vastly easier to use.

The Reach beta is a decent example of what I'm talking about (besides H1 and 2 obviously). In the beta, the AR had its uses if you were accurate and burst fired, and was nice for cleanups, but the magnum was the clear primary for a skill shooter (same goes for the DMR and NR as well).

That would make it useless. The DMR user would win every time.

Obviously the power of the weapon would be adjusted so that if you were accurate and burst fired, you would have an effective weapon, but if you didn't, you wouldn't damage shit.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Good at bolded. Put some shooting skill back into Halo.

The AR's main role should be clean up kills and short range. Like it was in Halo CE, and like the SMG was in Halo 2.

The fact that I have to go no shields in Reach using a DMR or Magnum at mid range against an AR is horrible for the individual skill gap of the game. If a player can barely survive a 1v1 fight, the winner of a 1v1 fight is just cleanup material, no matter how good they are. This is my main complaint with H3 and Reach, the individual player cannot shine due to weapons such as the AR having similar kill times to the precision weapons despite being vastly easier to use.

The Reach beta is a decent example of what I'm talking about (besides H1 and 2 obviously). In the beta, the AR had its uses if you were accurate and burst fired, and was nice for cleanups, but the magnum was the clear primary for a skill shooter (same goes for the DMR and NR as well).

Right, and I think that makes for a much more boring game. The reason I dislike much of Reach's MP combat is due to the range that the DMR and Nerfle allow; just long range donging is boring. When you limit weapons like the AR, the sandbox gets more and more boiled down to one or two weapons. And that, to me, is boring. When I get killed with the AR, I'm not bummed that the dude had no skill or whatever. I'm bummed he chose a better weapon for the situation than I did, or otherwise got the jump on me. There's nothing wrong with that. (I also disagree with the premise that the AR requires no skill. It doesn't require a headshot, but that's not the same. I don't have to do amy more aiming with the DMR to land the four body shots than with the AR.)

 

[The Antitype]

I find it both amusing and disappointing that you'd classify AA's as "emergent gameplay"

You might see a guy in Armour Lock fighting a guy using a jet pack and think to yourself that this is the pinnacle of modern Halo's emergent gameplay. I see the same situation and wonder how the hell could the creator of Halo mess up the core game so badly that we now have instant invincibility buttons and a flying ability that ignores ten years of Halo multiplayer map design philosophy.

I didn't classify AAs on the whole as emergent gameplay, I classified the situations you discussed - where a rocket or grenade would bounce off and hit you, as a random, emergent thing. At least on a small scale.

AAs, like the physics, weapons, vehicles, and every other part of the sandbox, are simply tools that provide opportunities for emergent gameplay.

And quite frankly, if I'm playing games operating under the same philosophy for 10 years, I'm ok with them tweaking it.

And I never really understood the problem with the jetpack breaking traditional map flow. Yes, there are areas of the map only accessible to the jet-pack that should be addressed. But being able to usurp map control by circumventing a particular route is a good thing in my books...again, more variety to the way battles and matches play out.

Mind telling me how someone using the jet-pack on Asylum and throwing grenades in the middle structure is skill?

Mind telling me how using camo to hide yourself with a sniper (when this was a power UP) which teams fought over) is skill?

Mind telling me how using Evade with Shotgun or Hammer and then rolling out of a firefight is skill?

I agree Skill means adapting to the battlefield, however when I clearly killed my opponent when he jet-packs, and still die to his 2 thrown grenades is not me refusing to adapt, its outright a stupid mechanic. I have said my thoughts on bloom before, but its clearly something that benefits long range battles. Close range NO one gives a crap about bloom people spam the hell out of it. And its not random once or twice here or there type of thing, people get random headshots by spamming all the time. I do consider myself to be damn good at Halo, so why do I see myself getting gimped by all these additions just to give casuals a chance at surviving longer?

You're making yourself out to be helpless.

It's not as though these players all get AAs and you don't.

If you're getting abused by jetpacking grenade users, throw on armor lock when they drop the nades, wait for the explosion, then start skeet-shooting their asses out of the sky. Or you could sprint to cover. Or evade to cover.

If the guy with evade has a shotgun (which, he fought to earn by the way), then keep him at medium range with the DMR, or use a jet pack to launch yourself over him as he's rolling, shoot from above, drop down behind for the melee, repeat. Or use camo so he doesn't know where to evade away from or to.

Tons of options.

Maybe its just me and my friends, but we call out everything. Not just enemy positions and weapons, but also what AAs they're using. So I'm rarely surprised by what AA a guy has equipped, cause I've heard the name and the AA called out sometime in the last 30 seconds.

There are all sorts of tactics you can use to counter AAs, and that's where the thought comes in.

The actual mechanical, hand-eye coordination element of skill is all in the shooting. A bad shot won't beat a good shot if both players are equally smart about how they use the AAs and weapons they have equipped.

That's why I love Reach. You have the mechanical skill component (aiming, shooting), and the higher level strategies and on-the-fly tactical adaptations.

 

[GhaleonEB]

And I never really understood the problem with the jetpack breaking traditional map flow. Yes, there are areas of the map only accessible to the jet-pack that should be addressed. But being able to usurp map control by circumventing a particular route is a good thing in my books...again, more variety to the way battles and matches play out.

Play Reflection, a well designed map built around the concept of controlling the high side of the map, with and without the jetpack (aka, as Ivory Tower and as Reflection). They are two entirely different experiences, one that has wonderful map flow and balance, and one where dudes disregard the entire concept of the map and buzz in from all sides.

Or try to design a map in Forge with a specific set of rountes in mind, balancing out cover, infantry flow and sight lines. And then drop jet packs onto it. It's a night and day difference.

A map built with jet packs in mind is one thing. But the vast majority of the maps in Reach were not, and it shows. Jet packs should not be used on maps that were not designed to accomodate them.

 

[Hydranockz]

If they restricted AA's use in multiplayer similar to equipment in Halo 3, I don't even think we'd having this conversation.

I kind of agree. I say kind of because, if this was true, the only conversation here would be "Why we still got equipment in Reach? :/"

I love Hologram, Camo and Sprint. I think they are pretty well balanced. I don't like Evades crazy velocity changes. I dislike Armor Lock's pulsing but other than that, the cons start to stack. Drop Shield is fine in Slayer game modes and I am indifferent to jetpack.

 

[Steelyuhas]

Right, and I think that makes for a much more boring game. The reason I dislike much of Reach's MP combat is due to the range that the DMR and Nerfle allow; just long range donging is boring. When you limit weapons like the AR, the sandbox gets more and more boiled down to one or two weapons. And that, to me, is boring. When I get killed with the AR, I'm not bummed that the dude had no skill or whatever. I'm bummed he chose a better weapon for the situation than I did, or otherwise got the jump on me. There's nothing wrong with that. (I also disagree with the premise that the AR requires no skill. It doesn't require a headshot, but that's not the same. I don't have to do amy more aiming with the DMR to land the four body shots than with the AR.)

I do agree that the range of the DMR and NR are pretty insane, especially the DMR.

You don't have to boil the sandbox down, I am all for a diverse sandbox, but not at the cost of removing individual skill gap from the game. There are ways to have an interesting sandbox, with unique weapons that are useful in different ways and most of them require some skill be to able to wield them effectively enabling individuals to stand out while maintaining the options of different weapons and tactics. I thought the Reach beta sandbox did a decent job of this, but the final game took a step backward in this department.

 

[The Antitype]

Play Reflection, a well designed map built around the concept of controlling the high side of the map, with and without the jetpack (aka, as Ivory Tower and as Reflection). They are two entirely different experiences, one that has wonderful map flow and balance, and one where dudes disregard the entire concept of the map and buzz in from all sides.

Or try to design a map in Forge with a specific set of rountes in mind, balancing out cover, infantry flow and sight lines. And then drop jet packs onto it. It's a night and day difference.

A map built with jet packs in mind is one thing. But the vast majority of the maps in Reach were not, and it shows. Jet packs should not be used on maps that were not designed to accomodate them. Map designers didn't rebuild their maps when the jet pack was created. But they need to in order to make it work well.

I don't agree with this at all. Ivory Tower was a boring map to play, specifically because every single match played out the exact same way. Fight for that top section, keep eyes on the elevator, and long narrow corridors, make quick trips for the power weapons at respawn when necessary.

Adding the Jetpack in gives players on the lower level the ability to disrupt that map control and forces both teams to move around the map more. It's much harder to just camp that top area now, and for my money, that's a GOOD thing.

Finally, in general, I hate when Bungie remakes maps from a previous sandbox for a new sandbox. Halo CE maps played poorly when they were remade for Halo 2 (even with some smart changes). Halo 2 maps didn't play great when they were remade for Halo 3 (Last Resort, Blackout). Same for Halo 2 to Reach. Reflection, Pinnacle and Hemmo all play like shit, cause they're outdated map design for the sandbox.

 

[Slightly Live]

And I never really understood the problem with the jetpack breaking traditional map flow. Yes, there are areas of the map only accessible to the jet-pack that should be addressed. But being able to usurp map control by circumventing a particular route is a good thing in my books...again, more variety to the way battles and matches play out.

How can you not understand it? Jetpacking gives you an entirely different way to traverse a map. Maps are designed in such a way to facilitate encounters in and around various spaces in specific ways. From the mancannon in Valhalla to the corridors of Reflection, the maps areall designed with certain expectations of what the player can do.

On Asylum, you were never supposed to be able to fly up just above the middle structure, lob greandes and then disappear back down to safety. On Reflection, the team that spawns beside the Rocket Launcher can then jet pack up and claim the Sniper straight away. These things were never intended when the maps were designed. They go against the intent and flow of the maps and against player expectations.

And then you come to abusable jet-pack only hiding spots and that kind of cheap stuff.

I have yet to see a map that takes a jet-pack into consideration properly. There's no map where it feels like a jetpack would be perfect to used, like the jetpack was considered when designing the map itself.

 

[Steelyuhas]

Why is Spire so unbelievably bad? What are the forging options like for the Invasion gametypes on existing Invasion maps?

 

[Kuroyume]

The range of the DMR is excellent and well suited for Halo. It's a welcome addition to the Halo sandbox. Fans love it. It will be nice to see it return to Halo 4 without bloom and a higher rate of fire. Give it some recoil to compensate for the higher rate of fire.

 

[Tashi]

The range of the DMR is excellent and well suited for Halo. It's a welcome addition to the Halo sandbox. Fans love it. It will be nice to see it return to Halo 4 without bloom and a higher rate of fire. Give it some recoil to compensate for the higher rate of fire.

I like the DMR
I like the DMR
I don't want the DMR anymore
I don't know what I want

 

[LunaticPuma]

I have yet to see a map that takes a jet-pack into consideration properly. There's no map where it feels like a jetpack would be perfect to used, like the jetpack was considered when designing the map itself.

Spire.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I don't agree with this at all. Ivory Tower was a boring map to play, specifically because every single match played out the exact same way. Fight for that top section, keep eyes on the elevator, and long narrow corridors, make quick trips for the power weapons at respawn when necessary.

You've missed the forest for the tree.

Adding the Jetpack in gives players on the lower level the ability to disrupt that map control and forces both teams to move around the map more. It's much harder to just camp that top area now, and for my money, that's a GOOD thing.

Adding the jetpack renders the entire design of the map moot. I built a couple maps in Forge. It's one thing to design a map taking into account the hajillion variables that go into a MP map. Throw jet pack in - one elment - and it can slaughter the entire design.

Finally, in general, I hate when Bungie remakes maps from a previous sandbox for a new sandbox. Halo CE maps played poorly when they were remade for Halo 2 (even with some smart changes). Halo 2 maps didn't play great when they were remade for Halo 3 (Last Resort, Blackout). Same for Halo 2 to Reach. Reflection, Pinnacle and Hemmo all play like shit, cause they're outdated map design for the sandbox.

No argument here (aside from the bold, which others covered). It's one reason I'm less than dancing in the streets about the next six Reach maps being remakes - from across the entire series. They were all designed around different sand boxes and don't all work the same. Some maps could work, but the selection is going to have to be precise. My level of delight will highly depend on the map selection.

 

[The Antitype]

How can you not understand it? Jetpacking gives you an entirely different way to traverse a map. Maps are designed in such a way to facilitate encounters in and around various spaces in specific ways. From the mancannon in Valhalla to the corridors of Reflection, the maps areall designed with certain expectations of what the player can do.

On Asylum, you were never supposed to be able to fly up just above the middle structure, lob greandes and then disappear back down to safety. On Reflection, the team that spawns beside the Rocket Launcher can then jet pack up and claim the Sniper straight away. These things were never intended when the maps were designed. They go against the intent and flow of the maps and against player expectations.

And then you come to abusable jet-pack only hiding spots and that kind of cheap stuff.

I have yet to see a map that takes a jet-pack into consideration properly. There's no map where it feels like a jetpack would be perfect to used, like the jetpack was considered when designing the map itself.

Then we disagree. Areas of the maps still attract players and provide tactical advantages. Map flow still exists.

All the jet-pack does is allow you to access them from a different angle. That is the advantage the AA offers you.

What exactly is fun about battles on a map going exactly the same way, every time you play them. What's wrong with disrupting player expectation? All it does is force teams attempting to control the map to adjust and fight differently. That's not a bad thing. Routine and mundanity is a bad thing.

And I've already stated that I think remaking maps is a bad idea for the very reason that the updated sandbox will always break them. That is not a Reach problem, that is a Halo problem. It's the reason they remade Blood Gultch 3 times, and the reason Hemmo feels like the worst of the lot.

 

[Havok]

Halo CE maps played poorly when they were remade for Halo 2 (even with some smart changes).

No, no, no, no, no.

Beaver Creek, Warlock, Elongation, and Coagulation all played miles better than their Halo CE counterparts. Those 'smart changes' are what made those maps amazing, compared to their pretty good progenitors. Edit: even Tombstone and Desolation were at least comparable to the CE maps, although playtime was limited given their late release.

Halo 2 maps didn't play great when they were remade for Halo 3 (Last Resort, Blackout). Same for Halo 2 to Reach. Reflection, Pinnacle and Hemmo all play like shit, cause they're outdated map design for the sandbox.

That's because these examples are bad remakes. Last Resort was schizophrenic in its size and base design (bastardizing the simplicity that made Zanzibar so great), and Blackout changed geometry just for the hell of it (closed window being the biggest offender) and didn't work with equipment - that's not to say it couldn't have been fine with equipment, but regen and bubble shield were shoved on there unnecessarily. Hemo is a bad Forge remake with a significant list of mistakes, all to the detriment of the experience. Pinnacle would be fine if spawns weren't total ass.

 

[Tashi]

No argument here. It's one reason I'm less than dancing in the streets about the next six Reach maps being remakes - from across the entire series. They were all designed around different sand boxes and don't all work the same. Some maps could work, but the selection is going to have to be precise.

So is the implementation. I can tell already that there should be no jet pack on the Beaver Creek remake. I shouldn't be allowed to Jet pack up for rockets, sniper or on top of the other teams base.

 

[Striker]

Halo CE maps played poorly when they were remade for Halo 2 (even with some smart changes).

What?

Completely, absolutely false.

EDIT Beaten

I'm just flabbergasted at this post. Speechless.

 

[Steelyuhas]

No, no, no, no, no.

Beaver Creek, Warlock, Elongation, and Coagulation all played miles better than their Halo CE counterparts. Those 'smart changes' are what made those maps amazing, compared to their pretty good progenitors.

Halo 2 was the only game that remakes were awesome in, and is some cases better in the H2 than in H:CE.

What happened to the map designers at Bungie after H2?

 

[The Antitype]

No, no, no, no, no.

Beaver Creek, Warlock, Elongation, and Coagulation all played miles better than their Halo CE counterparts. Those 'smart changes' are what made those maps amazing, compared to their pretty good progenitors.

That's because these examples are bad remakes. Last Resort was schizophrenic in its size and base design (bastardizing the simplicity that made Zanzibar so great), and Blackout changed geometry just for the hell of it (closed window being the biggest offender) and didn't work with equipment - that's not to say it couldn't have been fine with equipment, but regen and bubble shield were shoved on there unnecessarily. Hemo is a bad Forge remake with a significant list of mistakes, all to the detriment of the experience. Pinnacle would be fine if spawns weren't total ass.

Agreed.

But the maps you mentioned were so different in terms of scale, and changes to layout and weapon placement. In some cases, like geometry, they were completely different (Coagulation, Beaver Creek) and only shared basic layout in common.

I'm fine with maps like that.

What?

Completely, absolutely false.

EDIT Beaten

I'm just flabbergasted at this post. Speechless.

Same to you, Striker.

Again, I barely think of some of those maps as remakes, so they weren't the ones that jumped to mind.

Sorry to flabbergast you.

I was thinking more along the lines of the Hang'em High and The Longest remakes.

 

[Kuroyume]

No, no, no, no, no.

Beaver Creek, Warlock, Elongation, and Coagulation all played miles better than their Halo CE counterparts. Those 'smart changes' are what made those maps amazing, compared to their pretty good progenitors.

That's because these examples are bad remakes. Last Resort was schizophrenic in its size and base design (bastardizing the simplicity that made Zanzibar so great), and Blackout changed geometry just for the hell of it (closed window being the biggest offender) and didn't work with equipment - that's not to say it couldn't have been fine with equipment, but regen and bubble shield were shoved on there unnecessarily. Hemo is a bad Forge remake with a significant list of mistakes, all to the detriment of the experience. Pinnacle would be fine if spawns weren't total ass.

Yeah, don't see what any of that has to do with the sandbox. It's just shitty design. Last Resort's base is a total joke compared to Zanzibar's not to mention they completely ruined Assault with Halo 3's shitty bomb arming system.

Don't really hate Blackout as much as some people do. Inferior to Lockout but not bad...

 

[Havok]

Agreed.

But the maps you mentioned were so different in terms of scale, and changes to layout and weapon placement. In some cases, like geometry, they were completely different (Coagulation, Beaver Creek) and only shared basic layout in common.

I'm fine with maps like that.

Same to you, Striker.

I was thinking more along the lines of the Hang'em High and The Longest remakes.

Beaver Creek was Battle Creek with ramps instead of ladders. Hardly completely different.

Longest was a mediocre map in the first place, Elongation was great for flag.

What game types were Powerhouse built for? I have no idea. The flag and flag returns in one-flag are on the roof of buildings because the buildings themselves are poorly designed. There are no bases.

I don't remember having any issues with the flag placement in the beta. Was it just changed because the kids whined that it was too hard to capture the flag and more captures means more fun? Why is Boardwalk the same way, with asinine flag placement? The world may never know.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Halo 2 was the only game that remakes were awesome in, and is some cases better in the H2 than in H:CE.

What happened to the map designers at Bungie after H2?

My hypothesis has been that in part, maps stopped being built for specific game types, as they were in Halo 2. I can list off the maps and their ideal game type or two (Relic, One-Flag; Headlong, one-flag and one-bomb; Turf, 3 Plots; etc.). Now do the same for Halo 3 and Reach. With a few exceptions, they were much more general purpose, and had many more game types dropped onto them in matchmaking. There's no focus.

What game types were Powerhouse built for? I have no idea. The flag and flag returns in one-flag are on the roof of buildings because the buildings themselves are poorly designed. There are no bases.

So is the implementation. I can tell already that there should be no jet pack on the Beaver Creek remake. I shouldn't be allowed to Jet pack up for rockets, sniper or on top of the other teams base.

Yup yup and yup.

 

[The Antitype]

Yeah, don't see what any of that has to do with the sandbox. It's just shitty design. Last Resort's base is a total joke compared to Zanzibar's not to mention they completely ruined Assault with Halo 3's shitty bomb arming system.

Don't really hate Blackout as much as some people do. Inferior to Lockout but not bad...

Part of the reason Hemmo and Pinnacle play so poorly is because they haven't been updated to deal with the increased range of the weapons, and the decreased movement speed.

So it's insanely easy to be caught in open space by snipers and DMR fire, and you're basically toast.

So everybody tries to keep to the periphery as much as possible, which wastes most of the space on the map.

Give me a completely new box canyon map, damnit.

 

[Steelyuhas]

Yeah, don't see what any of that has to do with the sandbox. It's just shitty design. Last Resort's base is a total joke compared to Zanzibar's not to mention they completely ruined Assault with Halo 3's shitty bomb arming system.

Don't really hate Blackout as much as some people do. Inferior to Lockout but not bad...

Yeah Blackout gets way too much hate IMO. Still a good map. I don't have any real complaints about Blackout except for not library window and some questionable spawns. Still one of the better maps in H3.

 

[The Antitype]

Beaver Creek was Battle Creek with ramps instead of ladders. Hardly completely different.

Longest was a mediocre map in the first place, Elongation was great for flag.

Fuck, I barely remember the originals. I thought there was a whole bunch of extra stuff on the sides of the map, rocky ledges or some shit.

I haven't played Halo CE since Halo 2 came out.

 

[Account Attempt #4]

I have yet to see a map that takes a jet-pack into consideration properly. There's no map where it feels like a jetpack would be perfect to used, like the jetpack was considered when designing the map itself.

Cage.

Spoiler

that tasted awful coming out :Lol

 

[Striker]

The remakes like Elongation, Tombstone, and Desolation were rebuilt but given proper adjustments to movement and map pacing. For instance, Derelict just featured teleporters to reach the top of the upper levels, whereas in Desolation it had a small grav-lift and ramps in the bottom area. It made a, let's be honest, poor map into a pretty decent one. Tombstone all around is above Hang 'em High I think for 4v4 games because there was easier access to reach the red base. Longest was an OK map, but improved as well and was pretty fun for CTF Classic.

Blackout was garbage any way you cut it. Geometry changes aside, the equipment and AR starts made it horrifying.

 

[Shake Appeal]

Turns out soloing the Invasion playlist is really, really frustrating.

 

[Louis Wu]

What game types were Powerhouse built for? I have no idea. The flag and flag returns in one-flag are on the roof of buildings because the buildings themselves are poorly designed. There are no bases.

One of the flag returns was INSIDE the powerhouse in the Beta; they were moved to the roofs on opposing corners because it played better that way.

 

[The Antitype]

Turns out soloing the Invasion playlist is really, really frustrating.

Fuck yes.

I try to only go in there with a team of four or more, so that we ALWAYS get the gametype we want (hint: INVASION. Not shitty slayer variants).

 

[Plasmid]

Got bungie mobile, blue flames and nameplate <3.

 

[Steelyuhas]

My hypothesis has been that in part, maps stopped being built for specific game types, as they were in Halo 2. I can list off the maps and their ideal game type or two (Relic, One-Flag; Headlong, one-flag and one-bomb; Turf, 3 Plots; etc.). Now do the same for Halo 3 and Reach. With a few exceptions, they were much more general purpose, and had many more game types dropped onto them in matchmaking. There's no focus.

What game types were Powerhouse built for? I have no idea. The flag and flag returns in one-flag are on the roof of buildings because the buildings themselves are poorly designed. There are no bases.

Agreed. Why they largely moved away from that is odd.

Although I kind of get that from Powerhouse, it is arguably the best map in Reach in my opinion. It plays Slayer, King, and 3-Plots excellently.


So after rage quitting Invasion on Spire because it is awful, I looked up Bungie's Invasion forge guide and I am going to forge an Invasion game on Spire (maybe the others as well) to try to make it suck less. My forge skills are limited at best though, so it might take a while lol.

 

[ncsuDuncan]

One of the flag returns was INSIDE the powerhouse in the Beta; they were moved to the roofs on opposing corners because it played better that way.

Yep. I was really surprised when the solution for the final release was to move the flag spawn out of the powerhouse. I assumed they were going to add a window on the powerhouse roof that would allow jetpacking players to assault the defense from above.

I still think it could be fixed. Throw a teleporter entrance on the bottom floor of the powerhouse at the back with the exit on the top floor in the corner. The problem in the beta was that it was too easy to camp the two doors and going up the stairs was suicide. Now the defenders would also have to fear someone coming out of the teleporter exit behind them, which would force them to defend the bottom floor as well.

 

[LunaticPuma]

One of the flag returns was INSIDE the powerhouse in the Beta; they were moved to the roofs on opposing corners because it played better that way.

I think the original flag placements were generally better. The map just needs to have the weapons re-arranged - swap rockets and shotty. I wouldn't mind trying it again with the original flag spots without armor lock or bubble too.