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[MrBig]

I don't get it. So you'd rather have a lot of the weapons not be able to do what they're designed to do? There's more that differentiates weapons than their ability to kill.

Play Halo 1 and get back to me. Each weapon has their own unique roll and unique effects in the flow of combat. It's the simple effectiveness of differentiating each weapon that makes them all have a roll, purpose, and effect. Whereas in Reach I can pick up any weapon and get the job done, all of their extra effects are just that, extraneous.

 

[FyreWulff]

Haha well clearly Evade was never meant for spartans and was meant for Elites in Invasion, on Invasion scaled maps. Not sure why the matchmaking support team thought it would be a good idea to give spartans the ability.

Spoiler

I'm assuming you are referring to evade + sword or shotty

It at least gave us the Awesome Rock Launch on Speedpile Hemorrhage.

If you're blue team, grab the 3 flag and evade into one of the rocks on the hill. You can launch yourself and then slide jump all the way to your cap zone in one evade.

 

[Devolution]

I use it on cage and sword base. It's basically a must, especially on sword base.

There aren't better ways to navigate those maps. The only other way to get on top of sword base are predictable lifts in which people with sword/shotty camp. And on uncaged you're just asking to be naded to death in those narrow walkways.

 

[ShortBizzle]

I use it on cage and sword base. It's basically a must, especially on sword base.

Yeah, unless you want to take the LONG way and/or love being the center of attention in the middle of a clan of trigger happy spartans.

Edit ^ beaten

 

[i nerini del buio]

Lolz at using bumper jumper in Reach.

Spoiler

I kieed I kieed

No, you're right, bumper jumper is useless as of now... you can't even jump high enough to avoid a ghost/revenant/warthog going for the spaltter -________- so sad...
oh well YOU CAN ALWAYS ARMORLOCK AND DERPADESTROY THEM!

overpowered nades? let's put armor lock into the game to balance them
jetpack? let's make everyone grounded like an elephant to balance it
sprint? let's make everyone slow then

and there you have a bastardized CoD*

*I say bastardized because CoD can be quite fun in its own way and because there's no bullshit like invis.sniping and evade shotgunning/swording/meleeing

my apologies for the rant, today's Reach was not fun

 

[thezerofire]

So adding to out broken balances broken, we're adding jetpacks balance poor map design?

 

[Barrow Roll]

I hope some people are on later tonight. =( (By later tonight I mean pst later tonight).

Will be on tonight for more rage inducing games.

Play Halo 1 and get back to me. Each weapon has their own unique roll and unique effects in the flow of combat. It's the simple effectiveness of differentiating each weapon that makes them all have a roll, purpose, and effect. Whereas in Reach I can pick up any weapon and get the job done, all of their extra effects are just that, extraneous.

Buuh, the Halo 1 Needler always seemed kind of useless to me. But every other weapon was A Okay.

 

[ShortBizzle]

So adding to out broken balances broken, we're adding jetpacks balance poor map design?

Personally I like to think the AA brings something to the table on those maps. Not that they're broken but it offers up a different play style. I think countdown is my favorite map with the jet pack being an option to help get around. Sword base, on the other hand, jetpack is more of a necessity, but when no one has access to jetpack, swat for instance, you play sword base differently.

 

[Devolution]

So adding to out broken balances broken, we're adding jetpacks balance poor map design?

The only reason I use dash so much is to run away from where ever my shitty spawn is, otherwise that AA can fuck off forever too just like the rest.

 

[Steelyuhas]

Buuh, the Halo 1 Needler always seemed kind of useless to me. But every other weapon was A Okay.

Every weapon in CE has a role in the sandbox and is balanced well, except the Needler. Thing just sucks. Poor Needler lol.

 

[Tha Robbertster]

Great read Ghal! Agreed on nearly everything you said.

 

[Barrow Roll]

Every weapon in CE has a role in the sandbox and is balanced well, except the Needler. Thing just sucks. Poor Needler lol.

Spoiler

I wish I had this gif without the text.

 

[Zoolader]

I hope some people are on later tonight. =( (By later tonight I mean pst later tonight).

I haven't got to play with any Gaf members before, but I'll join if invited!

 

[FyreWulff]

Every weapon in CE has a role in the sandbox and is balanced well, except the Needler. Thing just sucks. Poor Needler lol.

Halo 1 Needler has the best melee though

 

[Merguson]

Any way I can get that Halo: Reach review to read in a word document format? I'm not a big fan of the black background with white font.

 

[thezerofire]

Halo 1 Needler has the best melee though

I'm a fan of the AR beatdown + switch to pistol beatdown

 

[GhaleonEB]

Play Halo 1 and get back to me. Each weapon has their own unique roll and unique effects in the flow of combat. It's the simple effectiveness of differentiating each weapon that makes them all have a roll, purpose, and effect. Whereas in Reach I can pick up any weapon and get the job done, all of their extra effects are just that, extraneous.

The only way to do this is probably to go weapon by weapon, but I really don't see it. I think Reach's weapons are almost as distict as Halo 1's, and certainly more so than Halo 2 and Halo 3. There is some overlap in function, notably the two sniper weapons and in the rifles. Those have to be in place in order to give the Covenant some ranged weapons, which they did not have in Halo 1.

The automatic class of weapons (AR, Spiker, Plasma Rifle, Plasma Repeater, Needler) are all about as distinct from one another as they were in Halo 1 (AR, Plasma Rifle, Needler); besides, the Spiker and PR exist mostly to give Brutes a different weapon to use.

I think they did a pretty good job adding differentiating factors to those weapons that did overlap, especially compared to the past two games. The DMR and Nerfle have a larger set of differences than the BR and Carbine; the Sniper Rifle and Focus Rifle are different in ways the sniper and Beam Rifle were not. The duplicative Mauler and SMG were pulled.

Edit: the Halo 1 Needler is still my favorite version of it, for Campaign play anyways. I loved that I could fill someone with enough needles to blow three times, rather than just once. Often the second or third pops would set off the grenades they dropped, leading to some hilarious chain reactions. I would target one Grunt in a pack, and the chain reaction would clear the whole pack out.

 

[Tunavi]

Reach is an odd combination of everything outside of weapons (AA, Melee, grenades) being very powerful, and the weapons themselves are mostly weak.

overpowered nades? let's put armor lock into the game to balance them
jetpack? let's make everyone grounded like an elephant to balance it
sprint? let's make everyone slow then

To me the problem with Reach is a bunch of stuff was boosted to ridiculous levels to counteract other OP stuff. Awful chain of shit.

It's broken mechanics balancing other broken mechanics, like armor lock foiling grenades

+ you can't 5shot them because you can't see their heads while they're up there flying
+ you can't throw them nades

Quoting for truth

Spoiler

FRANKIE SAVE US

 

[Hydranockz]

As far as AAs go, Hologram is a fantastic addition to Halo. It is seriously awesome and doesn't impact map design or weapon balancing or anything.

 

[feel]

Reach balance talk...

oy!

 

[Tunavi]

Also, don't forget that bloom was implemented to "balance" the insanely OP 3x scope on the DMR. Horrible horrible game design. smh

 

[i nerini del buio]

As far as AAs go, Hologram is a fantastic addition to Halo. It is seriously awesome and doesn't impact map design or weapon balancing or anything.

have you ever faced a whole team of holograms?
it can be annoying just like the other AA's, fact is it's just not abused as of now because there's plenty of other much more useful AA's

 

[Hydranockz]

have you ever faced a whole team of holograms?
it can be annoying just like the other AA's, fact is it's just not abused as of now because there's plenty of other much more useful AA's

No I have not. Abuse with the Hologram? :lol

Actually, I am pretty sure activating the Hologram gives you a brief shield. A dude fired rockets at the floor as I sent out my drone. The rocket dude killed himself, I didn't take a scratch and my drone waddled on. I'm pretty sure you can block melees with it too...

 

[Barrow Roll]

have you ever faced a whole team of holograms?
it can be annoying just like the other AA's, fact is it's just not abused as of now because there's plenty of other much more useful AA's

All the more reason such things should be pick-ups.

I really hope someone from 343 will at least entertain or respond to the idea of certain AAs as pick-ups.

 

[The Librarian]

Whereas in Reach I can pick up any weapon and get the job done, all of their extra effects are just that, extraneous.

You can say the same thing about Halo 1, and, in fact, to an even greater degree. Because the Covenant doesn't have any long-range weapons in the first Halo game, it's much easier to get the job done with any weapon. Whereas in Reach, you can't get the job done against an Elite with a Focus Rifle if you have a plasma pistol, plasma rifle, or a Spiker. And just like the first Halo game, each weapon in Reach does better against some opponents than others. Similarities the two games share include (but are not limited to) the following: plasma is better at stripping shields than actually killing and human weapons are better at killing.

Speaking of this...

Ghaleon, I found this passage quite interesting:

Because the Covenant need to be able to engage us from the same ranges we engage them, the total elimination of duplication is impossible.

Why do the Covenant need to be able to engage us at the same range? The Covenant didn't have any handheld medium- to long-range weapons in Halo 1. In fact, I made a post about this in the Halo feedback thread over at Waypoint. I think giving the Covenant the ability to engage us at long-range runs counter to its tripod (weapons, grenades, and melee), and runs counter to your preference of bringing the combat closer and making it riskier. Here's the post:

Alright. I was playing Long Night of Solace and I came across an issue I've had with every Halo game besides the first: opponents having long-range weapons with which to fight. It limits the options of the player to use in an encounter; it limits the sandbox.

Let me explain. You know that first encounter on the Covenant corvette, in the Firefight area, where you have to push a button on the other side of the map to let the Pelican in? Well, if I want to try to work my way through the fight with a plasma pistol or a plasma rifle, I can't because of the Elite in the back with a Focus rifle hitting me from long range. It's impossible for me to use the weapons I enjoy and get through the encounter. (Or rather, it becomes so frustrating and not fun that it may as well be impossible).

Whatever antagonist(s) you guys plan on having in Halo 4, please don't give 'em long-range weapons.

 

[Devolution]

Invis in slayers. Evade in objective or evade with sword. Jetpacks in all kinds of shit.

Sometimes I think the people working the multiplayer are elaborately trolling us.

 

[i nerini del buio]

No I have not. Abuse with the Hologram? :lol

Actually, I am pretty sure activating the Hologram gives you a brief shield. A dude fired rockets at the floor as I sent out my drone. The rocket dude killed himself, I didn't take a scratch and my drone waddled on. I'm pretty sure you can block melees with it too...

the day you'll see 8 enemy spartans on your screen at the same time instead of 4 (or 10 insted of 5), being unable to differentiate between the true and the fake ones, you'll understand XD
teams of trolling hologrammers (lol) can be really annoying, trust me

 

[ElRenoRaven]

Edit: the Halo 1 Needler is still my favorite version of it, for Campaign play anyways. I loved that I could fill someone with enough needles to blow three times, rather than just once. Often the second or third pops would set off the grenades they dropped, leading to some hilarious chain reactions. I would target one Grunt in a pack, and the chain reaction would clear the whole pack out.

Hell yea. I really don't get why the Halo 1 Needler gets so much hate. I loved it and just kicked ass with it. Course I did so with the BR too and everyone seemed to think it wasn't any good in multi either. I actually really like Reach's Needler too. It feels closer to the Halo 1 version then the others have. I think trying to balance it for duel wielding really hurt it in Halo 2 and 3.

 

[Hydranockz]

All the more reason such things should be pick-ups.

I really hope someone from 343 will at least entertain or respond to the idea of certain AAs as pick-ups.

Wut? Hologram is now a bad AA? Is there anything HaloGaf won't find a problem with? :lol

 

[Tunavi]

I really hope someone from 343 will at least entertain or respond to the idea of certain AAs as pick-ups.

Yup, armor ability loadouts ruined Halo as a competitive game.

 

[The Librarian]

Hell yea. I really don't get why the Halo 1 Needler gets so much hate. I loved it and just kicked ass with it. Course I did so with the BR too and everyone seemed to think it wasn't any good in multi either. I actually really like Reach's Needler too. It feels closer to the Halo 1 version then the others have. I think trying to balance it for duel wielding really hurt it in Halo 2 and 3.

I didn't even know there was Halo 1 Needler hate. The weapon kicks ass.

 

[Devolution]

Wut? Hologram is now a bad AA? Is there anything HaloGaf won't find a problem with? :lol

All of the AAs have ways of being abused. ALL OF THEM. Some are just more obvious or easy to do than others.

This could have been less of an issue though if they were pick ups, and limited to certain maps/gametypes with more common sense than they currently are.

 

[Zeouterlimits]

Fantastic read Ghaleon, something I can really agree with. Feel the closing paragraph is a bit too "nice"/out of tone, but it still underlined the key points.
Well worth the wait, hope you feel it was worth the effort.

 

[FyreWulff]

All the more reason such things should be pick-ups.

I really hope someone from 343 will at least entertain or respond to the idea of certain AAs as pick-ups.

It was explained to us that AAs as pickups (and the OS/Camo powerups) were not considered part of the overall gameplan or design for Reach matchmaking. The ability to have on-the-ground pickups and the OS/Camo/Custom was put in just so people could use them for their own gametypes.

Hence why community maps that had pickup AAs or powerups had them deleted before being put into matchmaking (the one map that had a camo powerup simply escaped the test enviroment with the camo intact, it was fixed later)

I'd imagine 343 is going to generally not try to reboot Reach into their own image as it were. I'd rather they leave anything drastic they want to do for Halo 4 in their own game, anyway.

MLG's use is interesting but Evade as a pickup just feels weird to me. I'd like to see an experiment with having Drop Shield be a pickup in certain playlists though, since it makes more sense to pick something up that lets you create an object (closer to the concept of Halo 3 equipment), not pick up an object that changes your movement (which is more of something to be gained via powerup to me)

 

[Captain Blood]

I have have just thought of what could possibly be the most fun thing to do in Reach multiplayer. Run around maps in groups of 5 that all have the hologram AA selected. When we encounter enemies we will simultaneously shoot our holograms at them in Flying V formation.

Edit:
Also we pray that we aren't muted and when we unleash the Flying V we shout "Quack, Quack, Quack"

We will be unstoppable.

 

[Devolution]

I don't really have any hope or expectations for 343 when it comes to Reach currently. I can only hope they recognize where Reach has definite faults, and for somewhat subjective opinions on MM they at least provide framework for different and adequate playing styles. so that Halo 4 doesn't suffer from the same malaise.

 

[feel]

I really hope someone from 343 will at least entertain or respond to the idea of certain AAs as pick-ups.

yes! But make it so they can be used only a very short amount of times, and the guy that kills you can pick it up and use rest. Basically something like Equipment 2.0 with some good thought put into their placements and timings.

And nuke the terms "Armor Ability" and "Loadout" from future Halos please, so depressing to read.

 

[i nerini del buio]

Pick-ups were a smart way of bringing something new to the table and designers could use them as a tool to change the pace and flow of the maps just like power weapons and standard power-ups (camo, os)

You want to cater to a broader audience? Build into the campaign more set pieces and scripted events, because other than that casual gamers don't give a shit. Integrate the community into the game even more with an improved sharing system (Little Big Planet did good in this regard I guess) and a powerful cinema (edit. theater ) with Facebook, Twitter and Youtube account linking (no more Bungie pro and such, please). That's the stuff the broader audience only care about, in my opinion. Make them not feel nerdish when playing your game.
There's no need to make Halo a bastardized CoD. Indeed, every game that tried to emulate CoD, bombed really hard.

 

[Hydranockz]

Nice edit Fyrewulf

I'm sorry but if you are consistently getting duped by tagless player models in a game of Reach, you should consider the idea that the problem lies with you

Holograms are almost worthless once the opposing team knows you are using it. Note I said almost. A team using hologram is a team that cannot sprint/evade/jetpack/AL making it severly underpowered if your team is not using it either

 

[Tunavi]

It was explained to us that AAs as pickups (and the OS/Camo powerups) were not considered part of the overall gameplan or design for Reach matchmaking. The ability to have on-the-ground pickups and the OS/Camo/Custom was put in just so people could use them for their own gametypes

Just because something was "part of the gameplan" doesn't mean it should just stay forever. They tried something new and it failed. I'm all for "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," but this game is broken. People admit to playing living dead (consistently the most populated playlist) because the regular gametypes are so bad.

Loadouts and bloom need to go.

 

[Hydranockz]

Loadouts and bloom need to go for those that want it gone as much as it needs to stay for those that want it.

Fixed

 

[Devolution]

Fixed

No bloom needs to go. If there is one thing halo never needed it's that inconsistent piece of shit mechanic that only gets more stupid with p2p hosting.

 

[Steelyuhas]

Also, don't forget that bloom was implemented to "balance" the insanely OP 3x scope on the DMR. Horrible horrible game design. smh

I'm pretty sure that the DMR being a 3x scope has to do with the design decision to make the DMR specifically fit into a medium-long range weapon, while the Magnum fit into the short-medium range.

That design decision isn't actually translated into reality in Reach because of the Magnum's epic nerf and its ridiculous clip size to begin with. Couple that with the DMR ability to shoot right through bloom and the Magnum's role no longer exists. Unfortunate, because despite the shallow clip, I felt the Magnum and DMR balance was quite good in the beta.

 

[Zeouterlimits]

People admit to playing living dead (consistently the most populated playlist) because the regular gametypes are so bad.

Pretty sure LD was one of the most popular playlists in H3 too.

 

[Tunavi]

Here's an idea.
Give certain playlists the settings that Reach currently has - loadouts, bloom, super powerful grenades/melee.
Then give a few select playlists new settings for default Reach maps - sprint start only with AA's as pickups, no bloom, grenades and melee nerfed. And a 2x scope on the DMR

That way the people who have adapted will still have their playlists, and the people who want a more skill-based experience will have their playlists as well.

 

[Hydranockz]

No bloom needs to go. If there is one thing halo never needed it's that inconsistent piece of shit mechanic that only gets more stupid with p2p hosting.

Bloom is actually ok for some. Keep your hat on.

 

[Devolution]

Here's an idea.
Give certain playlists the settings that Reach currently has - loadouts, bloom, super powerful grenades/melee.
Then give a few select playlists new settings for default Reach maps - sprint start only with AA's as pickups, no bloom, grenades and melee nerfed.

That way the people who have adapted will still have their playlists, and the people who want a more skill-based experience will have their playlists as well.

Just call the former Team Training and they can have the guests too.

Bloom is actually ok for some. Keep your hat on.

Who? Those who've never hosted or suck and can't actually see the night and day experience for themselves?

 

[Steelyuhas]

Pretty sure LD was one of the most popular playlists in H3 too.

Wasn't Living Dead just a double xp weekend playlist in H3?

All signs point to yes. I'd be surprised if anything else were to happen given Frankies comments on MP.

Devo, how do, so assuredly, know when you host? Honest question.

If your bloom resets when you spawn, you are the host.

 

[Hydranockz]

Here's an idea.
Give certain playlists the settings that Reach currently has - loadouts, bloom, super powerful grenades/melee.
Then give a few select playlists new settings for default Reach maps - sprint start only with AA's as pickups, no bloom, grenades and melee nerfed.

That way the people who have adapted will still have their playlists, and the people who want a more skill-based experience will have their playlists as well.

All signs point to yes. I'd be surprised if anything else were to happen given Frankies comments on MP.

Devo, how do, so assuredly, know when you host? Honest question.

 

[Devolution]

All signs point to yes. I'd be surprised if anything else were to happen given Frankies comments on MP.

Devo, how do, so assuredly, know when you host? Honest question.

By playing with people I know are around my skill level or better, and when I do considerably better than they do. I don't think my aiming or playstyle just drastically improves during random games.

And that's when I don't notice this:

If your bloom resets when you spawn, you are the host.

I can also honestly tell when my shots just aren't registering on other players. I pay attention to these things very carefully and I notice trends in my own stats.