Support NeoGAF

[xxxstylzxxx]

I agree, they both definitely have their pro's and con's.

Agreed. Arena was obviously Bungie's attempt at recreating the competitive environment that existed with the 1-50 ranking ranking system while at the same time looking to discourage all the shady behavior that plagued both Halo 2 and 3 MM. And while I did enjoy seeing that fancy number next to my GT, the foul atmosphere that was perpetuated by players' sense of entitlement, for one reason or another, resulted in an extremely unpleasant online experience for many people.

I also never cared for how certain individuals placed so much emphasis on such a superficial number as a way to determine one's overall level of skill. In Halo 2 I was booted from a custom game specifically because my 46 rank was somehow deemed inferior to the rest of the team who happened to be at 47 or higher, absolute BS. Let's just hope that CA/343 develops a system/formula that somehow brings back that virtual carrot on a stick from a competitive standpoint (which seemed to be missing from Arena) while at the same time keeping the nonsense associated with the 1-50 debacle to a minimum.

 

[Slightly Live]

Halo needs a strong player investment system. Players need to feel rewarded for the time they put into games over weeks and months and also need clearly signposted progression milestones that clearly display indicate that investment. A game like Halo has to compete with the mindshare of other popular FPS games, particularly COD that offer robust feedback and investment systems.

Halo 3 coupled feedback and investment with skill and ability assessment with it's ranking system. Not only did you need to be a good player to progress through the ranks but you need to play many games to flesh your rank out. This system had it's flaws. There was always going to be a rank ceiling for players under a certain skill threshold in addition to progression being limited to playtime available. Which is why Bungie introduced a secondary ranking system on top of it during Halo 3's mid-life.

Halo 3 had very little reward incentive for players though. It had numbers corresponding to your rank per playlist and a little rank symbol.

Reach de-coupled the player investment system from skill altogether and made the entire investment system entirely playtime dependent. All you had to do is play and you's progress through it all. Reach introduced proper incentives for the first time. You had the Armoury with a wealth of cosmetic options, all unlocked via Credits earned from pretty every activity the game offered. It put Multiplayer and Firefight on the same footing in terms of rewarding time spent and allowed for the introduction of Challenges.

Took took a backseat. Limited to a single, Slayer-only playlist, the Arena was the only chance to directly compare your skill with other players. The Arena, I think, was a complete failure. It only caters to a specific audience due to it's limited gametype and map combinations. The system itself with various seasons and divisions is very confusing for the average player and there is no immediate turnaround for someone wanting to see where they stand as soon as the game ends. You had to wait around for weeks until the system was ready to judge your standing.

In future, they need to keep the strong player investment system. The Armoury is quite limited, despite being on the surface quite open and massive. I've already bough every item in there and the game isn't even a year old. The potential for cosmetic rewards hasn't even been properly tapped into yet, but it has a solid and firm starting point with Reach. The Arena though needs to be scrapped. There are some great ideas from the Arena that could be carried over to a new system but a new system is certainly needed. A new system needs to retain the wider scope of skill assessment found in Halo 3 but also needs to overcome some of the flaws of that system (borrowing some things from the Arena in this regard would help).

There also needs to be a stronger post-release presence. Reach in particular has suffered from a "fire and forget" attitude. The Arena was performing poorly, revamped, then quietly forgotten about. Daily and Weekly challenges promised a certain upward curve in terms of Credit growth that went no where after a few months.

A new system needs to be adaptive and reactive. It needs a certain flexibility which the Arena lacked. It needs substantial depth - which the Armoury lacks. It needs player mobility - which Halo 3's ranking lacked.

 

[The Librarian]

I don't see the need for any sort of investment system...unless your competitive (ranking). As long as the gameplay is good, you don't need an investment system to make players come back.

343, just focus on making the gameplay spectacular, and you won't need any robust investment system.

 

[wwm0nkey]

No Halo needs a better investment system. Having a fun game is nice and all but people do want to feel like they earned something for the time they play, how good they are and what they do in the game.

 

[The Librarian]

*shrugs*

Halo 2 and Halo 3 flourished without any robust investment system. I don't see why Halo needs it going forward.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I don't see the need for any sort of investment system...unless your competitive (ranking). As long as the gameplay is good, you don't need an investment system to make players come back.

A good investment system is additive to the experience, expands the audience and retains it. Just as importantly, players now expect it, and a shooter that eschews player investment is judged as deficient. The core game is always priority number one, and must be excellent; player investment amounts to trimmings. But they are important trimmings.

Me, I like getting credits, like saving up for stuff, enjoy customizing my avatar, love working on and completing challenges and gain some satisfaction in moving bars. A game that is both enjoyable and lets me do those things will have me playing it longer than one that does not.

*shrugs*

Halo 2 and Halo 3 flourished without any robust investment system. I don't see why Halo needs it going forward.

Time moves forward. People came to expect sound after silent pictures, color after black and white, and player investment after Modern Warfare.

 

[Risen]

Sooooooooo I think my headset is broken (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((

That SUCKS!

You won't use it in Raleigh unless you get through Round 8 when you get off split screen. Unless you want if for chat... but you guys aren't the chattiest of fools in game...

I ended up not using mine at all in Dallas. Sit your team mate that communicates the most in one of the middle seats... since you'll likely run around like a nut and flank all game, you sit on the end.

aaand PWN.

 

[Hey You]

I like working towards things. I work towards challenges even though they do little for my rank, but I like them because I can try different modes I usually wouldn't play.

Challenges got me to play Firefight more and I started to really like it.

I like Reach's ranking system because I can work towards it. In Halo 3 I played so many different playlists that it was near impossible to rank up. I was stuck at level 36 for a while.

 

[Merguson]

100,000 cR to purchase Armor Lock w Recharge Time

1,000,000 cR to purchase Armor Lock w/o Recharge Time


Make it happen.

 

[Kuroyume]

Halo just needs fast gameplay and good maps.

 

[Hey You]

100,000 cR to purchase Armor Lock w Recharge Time

1,000,000 cR to purchase Armor Lock w/o Recharge Time


Make it happen.

I would have totally bought that instead of Pestilence.

 

[Risen]

Time moves forward. People came to expect sound after silent pictures, color after black and white, and player investment after Modern Warfare.

I dunno... I seriously don't know a single person who buys a game for trimmings. Build great game play, and gamers will play it.

The number of games with great game play are few and far between. It's strange to me... I see developers routinely copy the trimmings... but rarely the game play itself.

Why is that?

 

[GhaleonEB]

NM

 

[Kuroyume]

Btw, how are some of you coming to the conclusion that Halo needs an player investment system? Is it based on the xbl charts ? Or what?

 

[Gui_PT]

Btw, how are some of you coming to the conclusion that Halo needs an player investment system? Is it based on the xbl charts ? Or what?

CoD has it. Which means all the kids are going to consider games without that system, are crap.

 

[Louis Wu]

Wow, this talk is a coincidence

The guy and his guest that quit? His second game ever in Reach. I've played over 500 games of Team Snipers. What is he doing in a game with me? If you were a 25 in Halo 3 you could only get matched against 15's to 35's (barring full party's going in with radically different ranks, which didn't affect you if you went in alone or as a two).

The guy and his guest die three times a piece then decide "whoah, I shouldn't have entered this playlist" then probably never return. The system is fucking broke, we need ranks back.

Nobody but the top guy on the other team and you had any experience in that playlist. Maybe at the time you were searching, there WEREN'T 8 people at your level to match up - so it grabbed two, then filled out the ranks with another 6 people that roughly matched each other. It's not ideal - but it kept you from having to wait 15 minutes for a match.

I don't think there's a decent solution to this particular kind of problem.

 

[MrBig]

Cover for the remastered CEA soundtrack

Bigger - http://i.imgur.com/9ug5H.jpg

It's by Eddie Smith, the guy who did the Glasslands cover.

Under concept art he's got a lot of stuff on anniversary, like the remastered The Maw hog sequence http://i.imgur.com/XyOBn.jpg
Obviously don't look at those if you don't want to see the new environments.

 

[Hypertrooper]

Cover for the remastered CEA soundtrack

Bigger - http://i.imgur.com/9ug5H.jpg

It's by Eddie Smith, the guy who did the Glasslands cover.

Source? Edit found it.

Otherwise he has a lot of concepts online in his concept section.

 

[squidhands]

lol, holy crap, shave your beard and you look exactly like Trevor St. John. (soap actor, lulz)

HaloGAF moonlights as actors confirmed.

I mean this in the coolest way ever. You look like a movie villain. :lol

Maybe I should be a villain on a soap opera? ;-)

Time moves forward. People came to expect sound after silent pictures, color after black and white, and player investment after Modern Warfare.

Yep. Unfortunately, the game itself is no longer enough to hold people's attention in regards to replay value. Reach brought in some interesting ideas, but it's still lacking. Merguson's idea of AA's really isn't that far off the mark with what I'd like to see. Have sprint available for pretty cheap right from the start, and the more maligned abilities available after every other benign AA is purchased (for a premium price, naturally). Could have been interesting.

 

[Slightly Live]

Btw, how are some of you coming to the conclusion that Halo needs an player investment system? Is it based on the xbl charts ? Or what?

-Rival genre games have it
-Casual gamers expect it
-Bungie thought Halo would benefit from it
-Halo games don't lose big features
-Player behaviours are changed by it (Double XP weekends, Credit Jackpot playlist increases)

All future Halo FPS games will have a player investment system (in some form). For certain.

 

[MrBig]

It says it right on his projects page. Please remove those images as to not spoil it for the people who have stated they do not want to see the new environments yet.

 

[The Librarian]

A good investment system is additive to the experience, expands the audience and retains it. Just as importantly, players now expect it, and a shooter that eschews player investment is judged as deficient. The core game is always priority number one, and must be excellent; player investment amounts to trimmings. But they are important trimmings.

Me, I like getting credits, like saving up for stuff, enjoy customizing my avatar, love working on and completing challenges and gain some satisfaction in moving bars. A game that is both enjoyable and lets me do those things will have me playing it longer than one that does not.


Time moves forward. People came to expect sound after silent pictures, color after black and white, and player investment after Modern Warfare.

I guess so. I think I'm just worried that working on a robust investment system will divert resources away from more critical aspects – campaign AI, network, multiplayer maps, etc. Though because I don't know how 343 is set up, having some people work on an investment system might not be diverting resources at all.

 

[Hypertrooper]

It says it right on his projects page. Please remove those images as to not spoil it for the people who have stated they do not want to see the new environments yet.

Why did he put the artworks online? Isn't he forbidden to upload them? Because the Bungie guys had to wait till Halo: Reach was out.

 

[The Librarian]

Yep. Unfortunately, the game itself is no longer enough to hold people's attention in regards to replay value. Reach brought in some interesting ideas, but it's still lacking. Merguson's idea of AA's really isn't that far off the mark with what I'd like to see. Have sprint available for pretty cheap right from the start, and the more maligned abilities available after every other benign AA is purchased (for a premium price, naturally). Could have been interesting.

Is this idea for Reach or for future Halo games because that idea doesn't sound like it belongs in Halo. Halo has always been about starting every off on equal footing.

 

[Gui_PT]

Maybe I should be a villain on a soap opera? ;-)

I'd watch it.

 

[MrBig]

Why did he put the artworks online? Isn't he forbidden to upload them? Because the Bungie guys had to wait till Halo: Reach was out.

I don't know. MS/343 must be more lax with CEA since the entire game is basically a paint over and not a whole new game that they would want to keep secret. It's not like H4 stuff is leaking out. Even Sparth stopped putting up new stuff.

 

[kittens]

I guess so. I think I'm just worried that working on a robust investment system will divert resources away from more critical aspects – skyboxes, skyboxes, skyboxes, etc. Though because I don't know how 343 is set up, having some people work on an investment system might not be diverting resources at all.

Fixed.

I personally love the cR investment system. The implementation has its weaknesses, namely the snails pace progression of the higher ranks, the weaksauce bonuses from completing challenges and commendations, etc. But the idea itself is fantastic, and adds a lot to the game for me. There's a fair amount of satisfaction from earning a new rank, especially when it's tied to helmets and other cosmetic stuff. I'd hate to see that taken out of future Halo titles.

I do, however, agree that the TrueSkill matchmaking system is broken in Reach, but I think that's a separate issue.

 

[MrBig]

I guess so. I think I'm just worried that working on a robust investment system will divert resources away from more critical aspects – campaign AI, network, multiplayer maps, etc. Though because I don't know how 343 is set up, having some people work on an investment system might not be diverting resources at all.

This is not how game development works. It's not like 343 is a few guys working in a small office building.

 

[Im_So_Pringles]

Woah. That's pretty awesome. I'm talking about the soundtrack cover, btw.

 

[Hypertrooper]

I don't know. MS/343 must be more lax with CEA since the entire game is basically a paint over and not a whole new game that they would want to keep secret. It's not like H4 stuff is leaking out. Even Sparth stopped putting up new stuff.

Maybe they don't know. He even has one HaloFest promo art online.

 

[Gui_PT]

That guy has lots of cool CEA concept art on his page. Don't go there if you're one of the few that don't want spoilers.

 

[HiredN00bs]

I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

I know, some made it into your post.

Whether or not you personally like the maps is completely irrelevant to the comment I made. It takes a lot of work and skill to make maps that cater to all these different abilities and settings simultaneously. Give credit where credit is due.

 

[Gabotron ES]

That guy has lots of cool CEA concept art on his page. Don't go there if you're one of the few that don't want spoilers.

Must. Resist.

 

[squidhands]

Is this idea for Reach or for future Halo games because that idea doesn't sound like it belongs in Halo. Halo has always been about starting every off on equal footing.

It was in regards for Reach, seeing as it's about as far from the original Halo as it could have been. Personally, I hope we don't see AA's any more in future Halo, but I'm not optimistic.

 

[User 73706]

If that concept art is anything to go by,

Spoiler

the Pillar of Autumn splits in half as you're driving through it and you're left to drive through the debris and corridors as they're in freefall.

Holy shit.

EDIT: This is kind of grasping at straws, but I hope The Maw's edited a little bit so we get some form of outdoor section or at least fighting in areas with more windows/etc. The badlands/canyon around the Autumn felt like a bit of a wasted opportunity with me, though to be fair there wasn't much they could do with the graphics from the original. Seeing some sort of arid wasteland loaded with flood (like the area outside the Autumn that has all the flood walking towards it as you leave in the Longsword, something simple like that) would be pretty cool to fight through near the end.

 

[Devolution]

F all of this talk

Spoiler

just kiddin'

, who is able to play today before I get randomly called up by a friend?

 

[MrBig]

If that concept art is anything to go by,

Spoiler

the Pillar of Autumn splits in half as you're driving through it and you're left to drive through the debris and corridors as they're in freefall.

Holy shit.

The game isn't being changed. It's just the visuals and surroundings that are different. The pathway that the hog follows will be exactly the same.

 

[User 73706]

The game isn't being changed. It's just the visuals and surroundings that are different. The pathway that the hog follows will be exactly the same.

Aww. I was hoping we'd get some surprises in-game similar to the Terminals that changed the gameplay here and there to spice it up even for the veterans.

 

[Slightly Live]

Aww. I was hoping we'd get some surprises in-game similar to the Terminals that changed the gameplay here and there to spice it up even for the veterans.

You mean Skulls? Skulls are in.

 

[feel]

Cover for the remastered CEA soundtrack

Bigger - http://i.imgur.com/9ug5H.jpg

That's all kinds of weird but it's still looking great and capturing the essence of CE well enough so fap fap fap fap *new desktop background*

Made it back from the hospital in one piece (thanks for all the well-wishes, it meant a lot). Still have to go back for surgery in a few weeks (fuuuu), but for now I'm just happy to be out of that damnable place.

Anyway, this thread moves waaaaay too fast to keep up with it, so I'll just post my mug and hope that some kind soul can fill me in on the past week of HaloGAF news while I go play some Halo.

http://i56.tinypic.com/30caykk.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]
Really glad to hear you're finally home and well!

And congrats! You're now set to be on the [URL="http://db.tt/a1hcavn"]HALOGAF calendar [/URL]. You will be February 2014, halfway through 2013 you will be getting contacted with a request for a picture in swimwear.

 

[Deputy Moonman]

Any kind of incentive apart from gameplay, as a reason to keep playing a game, is lame and I do not want. Give me good gameplay and i'll be around forever. I don't play Reach anymore and I didn't come close to accessing everything in the armory. How many times have I heard people say that they stopped playing Reach for the day because they reached their credit limit for that particular day? That's pathetic.

-Rival genre games have it
-Casual gamers expect it
-Bungie thought Halo would benefit from it
-Halo games don't lose big features
-Player behaviours are changed by it (Double XP weekends, Credit Jackpot playlist increases)

All future Halo FPS games will have a player investment system (in some form). For certain.

So long Halo, you adulterous whore! You've slept with the pagans and adopted their immoral ways. Half kidding.

Spoiler

half serious.

This is not how game development works. It's not like 343 is a few guys working in a small office building.

And yet Reach has the crappiest maps of any Halo game and the fewest maps in total upon release. Hmmmmm...

 

[bobs...onGaf]

Any kind of incentive apart from gameplay, as a reason to keep playing a game, is lame and I do not want. Give me good gameplay and i'll be around forever. I don't play Reach anymore and I didn't come close to accessing everything in the armory. How many times have I heard people say that they stopped playing Reach for the day because they reached their credit limit for that particular day? That's pathetic.

So long Halo, you adulterous whore! You've slept with the pagans and adopted their immoral ways. Half kidding.

Spoiler

half serious.

And yet Reach has the crappiest maps of any Halo game and the fewest. Hmmmmm...

I agree, but at the same time I am part of the camp that sadly thinks a good incentive system is nessicary these days. I know plenty of people who play Reach just for the cr.

Basically good incentive system and good gameplay = people playing forever. Win win really.

Bad gameplay with a incentive system will keep people playing for longer than they otherwise would have, but good gameplay and no incentive system just doesnt drag in the mass market who love filling up bars. Sad state of affairs but if the gameplay is good theres no reason NOT to have a incentive system just for the mass market.

EDIT: As for the CEA stuff, the artist is amazing, concept art rarely represents gameplay but if those are the types of environments they want to go for im excited.

 

[Booties]

Juices gets matched up against Risen and his BK friends. Falls to -6 almost immediately. Rage quits, prompting me to follow because I have a pub and his guest left. Go back to Walshy's School for the Clutch, kid.

 

[Deputy Moonman]

I agree, but at the same time I am part of the camp that sadly thinks a good incentive system is nessicary these days. I know plenty of people who play Reach just for the cr.

Basically good incentive system and good gameplay = people playing forever. Win win really.

Bad gameplay with a incentive system will keep people playing for longer than they otherwise would have, but good gameplay and no incentive system just doesnt drag in the mass market who love filling up bars. Sad state of affairs but if the gameplay is good theres no reason NOT to have a incentive system just for the mass market.

I do agree with you here. As long as the main draw is the game play itself, with the incentives just adding bonuses along the way. I don't like the idea of an incentive system being used as a way to add longevity. I guess that is my main concern. Longevity isn't an issue if the game is fun to play on its own merits. But getting bonuses like unlocking armor and effects are nice rewards for playing the game.

You know me; I have to be dramatic with everything I say.

 

[feel]

Any kind of incentive apart from gameplay, as a reason to keep playing a game, is lame and I do not want. Give me good gameplay and i'll be around forever. I don't play Reach anymore and I didn't come close to accessing everything in the armory. How many times have I heard people say that they stopped playing Reach for the day because they reached their credit limit for that particular day? That's pathetic.

So long Halo, you adulterous whore! You've slept with the pagans and adopted their immoral ways. Half kidding.

Spoiler

half serious.

And yet Reach has the crappiest maps of any Halo game and the fewest maps in total upon release. Hmmmmm...

I agree with everything you said, but sadly nowadays you just can't get a decent number of people playing to make matchmaking work well without major incentives all over the place. It's a bit depressing but that's just how it goes, all we can do is cross fingers for good gameplay that holds our attention on its own alongside the post-cod4 crap. I know people who went through all kinds of trouble with me carrying equipment and setting up Halo Ce lans every weekend, and now won't bother playing if they're not filling some exp bar or going seriously for some rank, and it kills me on the inside.

 

[Devolution]

Why is something like that not a tshirt design?

I'm unsure of the question, you mean for Halo Gaf? If so I just didn't think of it then lol.

Also I'm going through and looking at "campus" in a bunch of fonts and I'm totally getting that vibe that I spelled it wrong despite it obviously not being misspelled.

 

[Striker]

I don't necessarily see the need for an investment feature. EXP and cR didn't solve any gameplay fallacies, or keep any playlists fun, or fresh. What you primarily need is:

- balanced, fun gameplay
- some sort of ranking system (1-50, Arena style, whatever)
- 12-13 maps at launch, not including any FireFight levels
- an unranked playlist(s) specifically for split-screen players
- frequently updated MM refinement as months go by
- playlists that deal out 2v2, 4v4, and larger oriented maps

In that regard, keep the usual FFA, Team Slayer, Team Skirmish, Double Team, Snipers, MLG, and BTB in the ranked stage and have a few unranked beneath it. Perhaps Team Training, so you don't have to have both a slayer and objective splits, just have a voting stage to pick either or. And do not replicate each unranked playlist mirrored to a ranked one like Halo 3 did, it only causes way too many playlists.

but good gameplay and no incentive system just doesnt drag in the mass market who love filling up bars

Ranks provide the bar fill up, at least if they showcased this on the interface in-game or on the main page of the player's online web tracking (as they did for H2).

 

[Devolution]

I agree with everything you said, but sadly nowadays you just can't get a decent number of people playing to make matchmaking work well without major incentives all over the place. It's a bit depressing but that's just how it goes, all we can do is cross fingers for good gameplay that holds our attention on its own alongside the post-cod4 crap.

Major incentives. Well how about more vanity items/changes to character. Who doesn't like those and they're harmless. And don't make them only accessible through ridiculous amounts of credits.

 

[vhfive]

Major incentives. Well how about more vanity items/changes to character. Who doesn't like those and they're harmless. And don't make them only accessible through ridiculous amounts of credits.

I love playing dress up with my spartan

Spoiler

totally serious

 

[Bregmann Roche]

It takes a lot of work and skill to make maps that cater to all these different abilities and settings simultaneously. Give credit where credit is due.

Have you played Big Team Battle lately? How about Team (Jet)Slayer(pack)? Asylum while scoping? Pinnacle when the other team gets to spawn next to all the power weapons? The shipping version of Zealot?

I'm all for giving credit where credit is due, but Reach shipped with essentially no good BTB maps, seriously flawed Team Slayer maps (can someone run the numbers on how many soft kill zones have been added to playlists since release?), and too few maps overall. I'll give Bungie tons of credit for the good they did with Reach (frustrating game but still a favorite) but stop acting like the maps in this game are anywhere near the top tier of Halo maps.

If anyone deserves credit for making maps that cater to different abilities and settings then it's the community and Certain Affinity.