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Halo Reach Reveal Thread - Matchmaking/Multiplayer Details Revealed
- Thread starter Slightly Live
- Start date
Deputy Moonman
Member
bobs99 ... said:
Although I hardly expect it to happen, I would do a naked dance on youtube if these changes were implemented into Halo REACH.vhfive said:
2 Minutes Turkish
Banned
Louis Wu said:
But it would be anecdotal.
I personally have no issue with Halo 3 MP, and love it. I loved the MP in ALL Halo games (not a huge fan of Firefight though, needs serious work).
But the line I bolded is completely true.
I've played equal amounts of MP in all 3 Halo games, and seen enough to know that comeback rarely if EVER happen in 3.
And I mean REAL comebacks, not one team being down by 5 kills, comes back to win. I'm talking a team being down by 15 plus kills coming back to win. Used to happen a fair bit in the first 2, made the MP that much more exciting.
Let's be honest, in Halo 3, once a team is down by around 10 or so kills, they generally just give up and the game plays itself out. Again, I know there's excpetions, but the only time I saw an exception was when the matchmaking whacked an absolute gun in a team of average players (including myself), against another team of above average players.
I watched The Second Renaissance about a month ago. It was still very, very good. It exposed things in the Matrix story that had only been vaguely hinted at, while Origins retells a lot we already knew. I still liked Origins, but not as much as the stuff in The Animatrix.godhandiscen said:
Major Williams
Member
From the 8th minute on in Origins part II, this is where it begins. The overarching theme (french horns) are all Marty, but he has yet to use a lietmotiv quite like that. The arpeggiated strings, proper tempo and beat. Who did the orchestration? He deserves a raise and a pat on the back.OuterWorldVoice said:
2 Minutes Turkish
Banned
user_nat said:Well, this one time in BTB we were....
.. oh
To be honest, I've seen heaps of comebacks, if not very near comebacks
:lol :lol :lol :lol
GhaleonEB said:
Fish's argument was a pretty good explanation for why it's not. Balance of power rarely shifts in 3. Or is starts to shift too late.
MP games in 1 and 2 turn on a dime.
Again, I don't necessarily view it as a negative as Fish might, for me it's just an observation I actually didn't notice all that much until Fish mentioned it. Again, most likely because I never had an issue with it.
If you're good enough you win, if you're not you lose (unless cheaters are involved).
But the massive swings in 1 and 2 were super exciting to be a part of.
DopeyFish said:
:lol
Oh Dopey, you stopped playing because you were not nearly as good as you once were in Halo 2. The only difference is like I am hoping Reach will be, the good players will adjust to the new limits on the donging weapons (BR in Halo 3) The BR does suck compared to Halo 2, but that didnt stop people from adjusting and still being able to poop on kids from afar.
Yeah what is wrong with people who know how to use a weapon at any distance. OMG
Yes that would do nicely, just as you want all AR, all the time right?
GTFO.
Let's be honest - your experience - in TOTAL - is anecdotal.2 Minutes Turkish said:
Say you've played 5000 games of Halo 3. (I doubt you have, but let's say it.) According to Bungie.net, there are over 1.5 BILLION games of Halo 3 played - so your experience counts for 0.0003% of the total. Are you really saying your games are representative?
(At this point, I'm not even arguing the point - simply your right to make it.)
Totally anecdotally, but 48 hours old:
Social Slayer, Team Rockets on Standoff. My team's got a party of 3, plus me, and one other single. Game starts - two of the party of three start blowing us up in the base. Between them, they get 7 kills before the other single boots 'em.
We're down 0 to -7, and it's 2 v 5.
We win, 50-38.
::shrug:: Because it was rockets? Maybe. I've seen some amazing comebacks on, say, the Pit (standard weapons) - we're down 43-49 and one guy goes nuts and we win 50-49. Shit happens.
Eazy will tell me that kind of thing only happens at lower levels (I'm a 30) - he's probably right. But the thing is... MOST of us are at lower levels. The percentage of 45+ players is single-digits of the whole.
Edit: Just had to add this:
2 Minutes Turkish said:
That's funny, because that's exactly OPPOSITE from what all the Halo 3 haters say. They say the noobification of all the weapons means that they get killed by scrubs WAY more often than they ever did in Halo.
I wish the beta was out already, would love to deemer on everyone in here so we could stfu arguing about stupid stuff that no one will change their mind about.
I don't buy that level 45+ being in the single digits percentage, is there any data that actually tells that? I'd love to see the actual spread of levels out of all active players. It's so easy to get 45, even Metroidvania got 45.
I don't buy that level 45+ being in the single digits percentage, is there any data that actually tells that? I'd love to see the actual spread of levels out of all active players. It's so easy to get 45, even Metroidvania got 45.
Zeouterlimits
Member
bobs...onGaf
Member
2 Minutes Turkish said:
If I had Bungie Pro
and If I wasnt so lazy
Louis Wu, comebacks dont just happen at lower levels, but nice statistic damn you army of noobs
I kid 
Actually im suprised the number of 45+'s is in 1 digits, im guessing its because a LOT of people may only play 1 or 2 games and then never bother playing again which would bump the percentages to the lower end of the spectrum.
It seems more like 20% of people who regulaly play are 45+, 25% of people are 35 + and the other 45% of people are < 35, obviusly im making these figures up but thats what it seems more like.
I has anecdotal video evidence.Louis Wu said:
http://www.bungie.net/Online/Halo3UserContentDetails.aspx?h3fileid=89705473&rfilm=89714722
Down 45-49. We win 50-49.
My anecdotal evidence > your anecdotal evidence. (And his, for that matter.)
Ramirez said:
Screengrab of the Team Slayer distribution about 5 minutes ago.
Total height under all bars (in pixels): 4991
Total height under last 6 bars (45-50, in pixels): 115
Percentage of players 45+ in TS playlist right now (roughly): 2.3%
EDIT: DOH! Forgot to add in the lvl 50s! Sorry. Total under last 6 bars: 141px, percentage 2.8%.
I used to have a cool app that would calculate data points off a graph for me; that was 15 years ago. I don't have one any more, so I'm not really willing to do this sort of calculation for other lists - but I assure you, TS isn't really out of the ordinary.
If we are now posting random proof that comebacks can happen, no harm in some self promotion:
This clip shows that we are losing 26-94 (Oddball). According the the game stats we won that game 150-146 in the end.
I can't really remember but I think it was ~50-130 at one point.
I suspect Team Doubles and MLG would have quite different percents of +45s. Which is relevant because it seems like most people get their 45s in doubles. Still would be a small amount overall though.
This clip shows that we are losing 26-94 (Oddball). According the the game stats we won that game 150-146 in the end.
I can't really remember but I think it was ~50-130 at one point.
Louis Wu said:
I suspect Team Doubles and MLG would have quite different percents of +45s. Which is relevant because it seems like most people get their 45s in doubles. Still would be a small amount overall though.
2 Minutes Turkish
Banned
Louis Wu said:
I'm not a HAlo 3 hater though. Never said I was. I'm the opposite, or did I imply you were referring to me when I shouldn't have?
Not to be annoying, but the comeback you listed were exactly the kind of comebacks I was saying aren't the ones I'm talking about. I'm talking 15-20 kill swings that I experienced a lot in Halo 1 and 2.
But you're right, my gametime in Halo really is insignificant in the scheme of things. Same goes for my game time with Halo 1 and 2. I'm sure it pales in significance to MOST dedicated Halo players. Actually, I shouldn't say I'm sure, I should say I KNOW it does. I have plenty of friends IRL and on Live who have put FAR more hours into Halo 1/2/3 than I have, but I guess it was my mistake to assume then that that actually lent MORE credence to what I was saying.
Let's say I've played a total of around 500-1000 games of each Halo title (which when you throw in Local AND Xbox Live is probably about where I'm at)
If the percentage of 'swing' matches is THAt much higher in 1 and 2 compared to 3, then surely it can't JUST be anecdotal.
Again, my definition of 'swing' appears to be different to yours though. You mention games where the difference between the two teams was 6 or 7 at worst. Yeah, I see those plenty in Halo 3 as well. But I'm talking epic swings of 15-20. I'm saying those happen rarely if ever in Halo 3.
Now, maybe Fish wasn't talking that level of swing, he didn't clarify, he just said 'comeback'. That could mean from 2 down. But I refer to a 'comeback' as a team, for all intents and purposes, being GONE. Almost NO chance of a win, and they pull of a win. To me, 43-49 and the team on 43 'comes back' to win, isn't that sort of example I had in mind.
I'm thinking more like 25-45 or 25-40 and THEN the losing team comes back.
I used to see a LOT more of those matches in Halo 1 and 2 even in MY limited man hours put in, compared to 3.
bobs...onGaf
Member
Louis Wu said:
Screengrab of the Team Slayer distribution about 5 minutes ago.
Total height under all bars (in pixels): 4991
Total height under last 6 bars (45-50, in pixels): 115
Percentage of players 45+ in TS playlist right now (roughly): 2.3%
I used to have a cool app that would calculate data points off a graph for me; that was 15 years ago. I don't have one any more, so I'm not really willing to do this sort of calculation for other lists - but I assure you, TS isn't really out of the ordinary.
The only problem with that statistic is that in a lot of cases once a person achieves a high rank they either start again with a new Tag for something to do/ move onto a new playlist/ or just play social and customs.
So yeah im willing to bet (but have no data to back it up) that less than 50 % of 50's in a playlist ever play that playlist again more than a few times. Even if they do its under a new tag so they can have the fun of ranking up again (and not risk theyre 50).
As for 45+ people in playlists, typically at that level you want to rank up, and so would wait for a team to go in with, thats why they would play less as theyre friends wouldnt be on.
So yeah the percentage if 45+ players is quite high, but I would argue that they move on once reaching the higher ranks.
I would also like to add that maybe those swings being fewer and far between is a good thing, typically the more skilled team would get the 10 point + lead and then would be good enough to retain it, swings usually come from some sort of random variable which doesnt lead to good competative gameplay.
Those crazy swings still happen though.
Major Williams
Member
Awesome, thanks! He also did fantastic work on the first as well. Particularly when the Forerunners begin to fight back. Really love his stuff, and should be considered for the next 343 game - his use of the orchestra to create atmosphere and tension is raw talent.OuterWorldVoice said:I forwarded this to him.
For those who haven't seen it, beware, I'm going to post screens.
What happened on the Ark to cause such an awesome battle? This is simply one of the most epic things I think I've seen. I wonder what purpose this building had that was so important to send ALL forces to siege it? (This is where the epic music is)
Domino Theory
Crystal Dynamics
Good Lord, the answer to a BR vs AR debate is so obvious, the problem is that it's not going to be implemented in Halo 3, ever (hopefully in Halo: Reach):
Let us spawn with both an AR and a BR. Problem solved.
And to think designers get paid for those types of decisions.
Let us spawn with both an AR and a BR. Problem solved.
And to think designers get paid for those types of decisions.
Louis Wu said:
Screengrab of the Team Slayer distribution about 5 minutes ago.
Total height under all bars (in pixels): 4991
Total height under last 6 bars (45-50, in pixels): 115
Percentage of players 45+ in TS playlist right now (roughly): 2.3%
EDIT: DOH! Forgot to add in the lvl 50s! Sorry. Total under last 6 bars: 141px, percentage 2.8%.
I used to have a cool app that would calculate data points off a graph for me; that was 15 years ago. I don't have one any more, so I'm not really willing to do this sort of calculation for other lists - but I assure you, TS isn't really out of the ordinary.
Hmm, I guess. I would still like to know the total numbers, I remember looking at the MLG distribution one day and the level 50s were just towering over every other level, so this might show it some what, but there are a lot of variables that could skew the numbers.
I would have guessed at least 1/4 of the games population was above 45...
2 Minutes Turkish
Banned
DopeyFish said:
That's what I thought, which is what I was talking about too.
But Ghal and Lu keep referring to these small handful of kills down comebacks. Which I'll admit happily happen all the time.
But the BIG swings are few and far between. I'm not saying they DON'T happen, but compared to Halo 1 and 2, it's pretty rare.
Again, I don't think it's necessarily a BAD thing, but I think it DOES lend some weight to an argument about balance between the 3 games.
I hate you. I didn't want to do another one.user_nat said:
You're right, a much higher percentage.
Total pixels under all bars: 5231
Total pixels under last 6: 587
Percentage at 45+: 11.2% (I'm off a bit)
And yeah, once you hit 50 you stop playing. And yeah, a bunch of beginners are alt accounts. So fine, double it. You're still talking about a fifth of the total population. In congress, 60% is considered a filibuster-proof majority, and 75% can overturn a presidential veto of a constitutional amendment. 80% seems like a lot to me.
I do see many comebacks of 10 kills or more often, and see objective games start 0-2 and end 3-2. But I'd argue that big swings such as the 20+ ones you are describing are a sign of imbalance in the teams or map layouts, where securing a weapon set/vehicles/map position allows one team to run up huge sprees on the other team. And the relative lack of such is a good thing.2 Minutes Turkish said:
2 Minutes Turkish
Banned
Kapura said:
I'm not sure what you're asking, but I'll reply to what I THINK it is, in saying I think the balance goes
Halo 1 > Halo 2 > Halo 3
In terms of which game has the weapon balance right. The only anomaly is Halo 2's dual wielding.
bobs...onGaf
Member
Louis Wu said:I hate you. I didn't want to do another one.
You're right, a much higher percentage.
Total pixels under all bars: 5231
Total pixels under last 6: 587
Percentage at 45+: 11.2% (I'm off a bit)
And yeah, once you hit 50 you stop playing. And yeah, a bunch of beginners are alt accounts. So fine, double it. You're still talking about a fifth of the total population. In congress, 60% is considered a filibuster-proof majority, and 75% can overturn a presidential veto of a constitutional amendment. 80% seems like a lot to me.
Agreed, but to be fair 20% is about right, the highest 5 ranks wouldnt be reached by everyone but 1 out of 5 people being up there is pretty strong numbers, and that equates to many thousands (millions?) of people.
Sorry I forgot why we were discussing the graphs but im more interested in analysing graphs now, ive been doing maths all day and so looking at graphs feels nice and natural - its a lot nicer than what ive been doing anyway :lol
Domino Theory
Crystal Dynamics
GhaleonEB said:Which is how it works in the only playlist I romp in regularly.
Yeah, it's a great thing that BTB always has BR/AR starts, it's just a shame that it's not like that anywhere else.
I'd like to spawn with a BR and AR when playing 4v4 and 5v5 games on incredible maps like Pit Stop, High Ground (this map needs to be in BTB), Cold Storage (is this even a map anymore?), Heretic, Citadel, Ghost Town, Blackout and in the playlists that many of us choose to play in (Social Slayer and Team Mythic, for example).
I just love how Social Slayer is a playlist of four gametypes, but Team Slayer, Team Duals and Team Rockets are the ONLY gametypes that will ever show up as the initial gametype before veto. Team BRs NEVER shows up first, you always have to veto to get it.
And don't even get me started on the veto system of "the other team doesn't want to play this and neither do we but we're not going to veto just so we can piss them off."
2 Minutes Turkish
Banned
GhaleonEB said:
But if one team can get out to a massive lead, then the losing side get pull that lead back and clinch a win, isn't that balance?
Where as if one team manages to whore the power weapons and simply keep opposition at bay or dominate them, then isn't THAT imbalance?
Domino Theory
Crystal Dynamics
Louis Wu said:I hate you. I didn't want to do another one.
You're right, a much higher percentage.
Total pixels under all bars: 5231
Total pixels under last 6: 587
Percentage at 45+: 11.2% (I'm off a bit)
And yeah, once you hit 50 you stop playing. And yeah, a bunch of beginners are alt accounts. So fine, double it. You're still talking about a fifth of the total population. In congress, 60% is considered a filibuster-proof majority, and 75% can overturn a presidential veto of a constitutional amendment. 80% seems like a lot to me.
For a second there I thought the "LVL" said "LOL".
Kinda fitting, though.
I think you're responding to something in the abstract, but not what I wrote (or at least, was talking about). Games that careen back and forth wildly depending on who has the power weapons/good map location/studly vehicle don't strike me as balanced.2 Minutes Turkish said:
Now to be fair, I rarely had any epic comebacks in Halo 1 or 2 either; plenty of more narrow swings like I've described. So the entire discussion of 20+ swings happening relatively often is alien to me. But I'd say if those were happening often, yes, it's a problem.
bobs...onGaf
Member
Domino Theory said:
I also think AR/ BR starts should appear more, but lets be honest in that situation the people using AR's wouldnt have much fun which is why we probably dont see it much.
Secondly what you said about veto'ing made me lol - but I hate the idea of seeing 2 maps and choosing between them, in those systems the less popular maps never show up which is a bad thing if you like the less popular maps (or just wanna check em out).
2 Minutes Turkish
Banned
user_nat said:
Of course not, and as I said, I didn't say big swings NEVER happen, it's just rare.
But I'd wager most of us have been playing long enough to know (or be honest enough with themselves to know) when they're just being outclassed.
I said myself earlier that I'm an average Halo player (I'm sure Dax can attest to that) and I know when I'm not good enough.
It just seems a little TOO coincidental that there seemed even in my limited (compared to most of you) game time with all 3 games, that there was such a disparity in massive comebacks.
bobs...onGaf
Member
2 Minutes Turkish said:
But surely the better team would be good enough to outslay the opponents and 'earn' the power weapons?
I do see where your coming from, its the exact same thing as rewarding killstreaks in CoD, why is the winning team being given tools to further annihilate the losing team lol.
Something I felt that was kinda killed off in Halo 3 was Objective games and BTB. Whether it was the community, or Bungie, or the way the maps were designed, or the veto system, I dunno, but things seemed to be too Slayer orrientated this time around.
I guess in general more people want to play Slayer, probably since many are too stupid to know how to play Objective games properly, but Halo 2 had some epic matches come from it. Neutral Assualt on Waterworks. BTB CTF on Headlong. I loved the contesting mechanic, matches could last ages. It felt like people were actually working together more often than not. I hope Reach brings back some of that feeling.
I guess in general more people want to play Slayer, probably since many are too stupid to know how to play Objective games properly, but Halo 2 had some epic matches come from it. Neutral Assualt on Waterworks. BTB CTF on Headlong. I loved the contesting mechanic, matches could last ages. It felt like people were actually working together more often than not. I hope Reach brings back some of that feeling.
Domino Theory
Crystal Dynamics
bobs99 ... said:
Then all they need to do is push Y.
2 Minutes Turkish
Banned
GhaleonEB said:
I never said 20+ swings happened OFTEN in 1 and 2, I said they happened way more than in Halo 3.
Big difference.
But I can see how you see those swings as a problem, but to me, the fact that one side GOT out to that lead through little more than weapon spawn camping is MORE of a worry. I see it as balance when the game equips me with a weapon (pistol) that can reverse that trend.
But that's just me.
It seems to me that trend can be more readily traced to the amount those games were played. Logically, the more people play the game, the less likely they are to give up a huge lead. That connection follows much moreso than a commentary on weapon balance. However, i'd very much like to hear how a better wrapon balance makes comebacks easier.2 Minutes Turkish said:
Mojo said:
if you read my epic bitchfest back in halo 3 beta, you'd know it was all bungie
i warned them about how incorrectly the objective games were set up... from things like the interface being mixed up and confusing to the flag carrier running the same speed as everyone else. i could live with time return on single flag ctf, but not multiflag... and when they started the CTF games, they originally had return points different than the flags... it was really, really nonsensical.
they sapped the fun out of objective games...
though territories was bloody awesome (i still remember the number assignments for high ground and valhalla from the beta) but flag/oddball/king of the hill/assault were all completely nerfed and could have been fixed extremely easily but my complaints went completely ignored.
i just hope this time, bungie actually listens to people in their community (ie me) so we can avoid these problems? I'd rather have something to rave about as the huge halo fan I am... I honestly have a hard time calling Halo 3 anywhere close to the multiplayer feast Halo 2 was in it's day... even with all the hacks and glitches.
The thing most people fail to realise is that we or at least I do not hate the AR. I have no agenda for or against any weapon. All I am saying or at least I used to try to say is that at Level 45+ when you start with an AR, you have chances of either out right destroying the other team or getting destroyed, that isnt fair game. If the games actually did give you the BR as a starting weapon those games would actually be competitive and people would at least still try to win until the end, as is.. with AR starts, you get a very clear idea of who is going to win because the other team has locked the map up with key points on the map being guarded by BR equiped enemies. I would just like to have a BR in my bag to at least have a chance to turn the tide to favor my team.
Team Slayer at Level 45+ with AR starts is worthy of nightmares.
Team Slayer at Level 45+ with AR starts is worthy of nightmares.
Eh, I can't really see a reason why games with players or higher skill would be more predictable than games at lower levels, I'd actually be inclined to say the opposite. Sure players of higher skill play more consistently which would lower the chance of random comebacks and they also work together with map/weapon control so momentum plays a bigger role and if a team has that momentum coming into a 40-30 lead it'll be harder for the losing team to come back. Then again that ability to conserve momentum can also work against the leading team if the losing team gains map/weapon control towards the end and plays consistently enough to hold onto it.Louis Wu said:
From my experience comebacks in Halo 3 aren't too rare. Sure there are some maps like Valhalla, Standoff, and Avalanche that all too often get decided within the first minute because one team grabs laser and assumes uncontested vehicle control but other than that I've witnessed plenty of comebacks from both sides of the event. I appreciate Halo 3's momentum, map, and vehicle control which does make things a bit more predictable than say MW2 where a single person can camp on the outskirts of a map until he gets a AC-130 and decimate the other team no matter what's happened throughout the rest of the match. Come backs aren't supposed to be a frequent occurrence and that's what makes them fuck-awesome, more comebacks can also be a sign of inconsistency in the game which can be pretty shitty.
Eh, I'd argue anyone that didn't get past level 10 was just messing around on an alt account or didn't even try to play the playlist long enough to have their level balanced out. The spectrum of Halo 3 levels for those that have actually sunk a decent amount of time into a ranked playlist is probably has a normal distribution with a mean around 30. Considering that and the fact that many people try to get their highest ranks in other playlists like SWAT or Team Doubles and I think the amount of people 45+ is significantly greater than 2.3%Louis Wu said:
Screengrab of the Team Slayer distribution about 5 minutes ago.
Total height under all bars (in pixels): 4991
Total height under last 6 bars (45-50, in pixels): 115
Percentage of players 45+ in TS playlist right now (roughly): 2.3%
EDIT: DOH! Forgot to add in the lvl 50s! Sorry. Total under last 6 bars: 141px, percentage 2.8%.
I used to have a cool app that would calculate data points off a graph for me; that was 15 years ago. I don't have one any more, so I'm not really willing to do this sort of calculation for other lists - but I assure you, TS isn't really out of the ordinary.
It's nearly impossible to map out a worthwhile projection so the argument is pretty trivial.
Oddball, King of the Hill, and Assault were shit on by Bungie in Halo 3. Oddball is popular in MLG, but itself and the rest aside from CTF and, in the beginning, Territories, were completely obscure after being so glorious in Halo 2. Assault arming in Halo 2 I enjoyed much more also, and 3's CTF time it took for flag times being changed (two years).
