depths20XX
Member
If you're gonna use the P2W argument you should probably mention better cards than Deathwing and Noz...
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Hearthstone |OT| Why tap cards when you can roll need [Naxx final wing out now]
- Thread starter Minsc
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Do you mean JARAXXUS, EREDAR LORD OF THE BURNING LEGION?
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Brah.. every legendary I have save one has been pulled from a booster that I bought with gold (Nozdormu was one btw). Zero $ spent on this game and I can construct most major decks. The game has been out for months. Simply from disenchanting all of my duplicates I have enough to craft a legendary every 3-4 weeks, wayyyyy quicker if I get lucky and pull a gold or epic in a pack. Go back two pages where I posted a pic of one of my packs, there was like 300 dust in that pack alone. The rng nature of the game makes it impossible to pay to win unless you actually just buy packs to do nothing but disenchant for dust.
Obviously though, you will need way more than 10 hours of play..
partyphone
Banned
oh and don't take all of the piling on personally. the P2W accusation gets brought up a lot in these threads and people are just frustrated by it.
After going 1-8 last night over 3 Arena runs, including getting almost totally shut out by 3 mages in a row, I am done until I figure out how to get better. Which probably means never. Too frustrating and too many people that seem like Graduate Students of Deck Construction, which is great for them but kinda shitty for newer players.
Also, even in Casual play, if I end up getting matched against a Priest who starts pulling the fuggin' Lifewell/Northshire Cleric endless healing shit, I just bail out now by like turn 3 rather than sit there and be annoyed until dead 3 turns later.
Black Dragon!
Don't attack Northshire Cleric unless you can silence or kill it.
Every effective deck needs some combination of silences, board clears, or hard removal. If a Priest plays Lightwell I assume that Inner Fire is coming ASAP and do whatever it takes to neutralize the card.
Also, don't be afraid to take damage to the face. You still win if you have 1hp left the same as you do if you have 30hp left.
Totally, this is like a daily thing. Especially for people just downloading this now that it's out. Remember that a lot of us have been playing since the very beginning of the beta last year and it's been all the same cards this whole time.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Hm, totally didn't realize it was that Jeff Green I was giving stream advice to.
If that happened I'd silence the Mercenary. I'd get the 7 attack back and the minion cost penalty goes away, too.
I love silencing my own cards to do unpredictable things. Someone puts up a wall of cheap minions when I play Rag? I'll silence him. Someone ignores an Ancient Watcher I put out on turn 3, then later I can silence him and attack.
shadowstar
Member
It's worse when sites like Penny Arcade or Giant Bomb post comics/videos complaining about p2w. That can have a real impact and is irresponsible.
It is slightly true because it is...well a card game and sometimes people have cards you simply don't have. I don't think the complaint is wrong as much as it is inappropriate considering the game people are playing.
We're not saying this out of blind devotion, there are decks made up of basic cards that can be competitive, that can defeat legendary laden decks, that can reach Legendary status...
It's not about "loving the game", it's about understanding it.
Well, every card game is P2W to a point because unless they give everyone every card from the start there is never going to be an even ground. Heck, I'm sure I'd do consistently better if I had cards like Alexstraza, Gorehowl and BK to round up my decks, which I could if I bought more packs and as a consequence more dust to craft them. I am just exchanging time for money in this case.
But how this game works, the effects are minimized in a manner I would consider acceptable. Your knowledge of the game can probably get you farther than $50 could at the start, but knowledge AND $50 will definitely get you farther than someone who puts no money in.
styl3s
Member
It's also slightly non-true.
Spending $200-300 on packs doesn't make you better at the game. Yeah, you can get all the legendary cards and copy decks from so called "pros" but that means nothing if you don't understand core mechanics of a *TCG/CCG*. There are plenty of people that get to rank 1 and make a new account to prove you don't have to spend money. It irritates me when people call this "pay to win" when they don't know shit about the game. You may get a slight advantage and progress faster but the game is not built around a P2W model.
$0 spent since beta and hit rank 1 last month and already top 10 (non legendary of course, don't have the time to invest in that).
That would be AWESOME.
Man, it's so nice when your Inner Fire+Divine Spirit cleric goes perfectly and you end up with a 12/12 by turn 3 or a 28/28 taunt by turn 6. If things go wrong it's awful but the few times it goes well it's so fun.
I wonder how Blizzard will ever make Priests competitive in the meta though.
Edit: Also I hate secrets
I wonder how Blizzard will ever make Priests competitive in the meta though.
Edit: Also I hate secrets
Yep. Trump has displayed a few 'free to play' decks that hold up pretty well but it ultimately falls upon player skill and knowledge of the meta and the game.
Just got my best run in the arena with 4/3.. guess I've improved a little.
On the current discussion, I get kind of frustrated during casual or ranked if someone pulls out a legendary. I think it would be a great idea if they implemented some sort of "Basic Deck" mode to let new people get the hang of the basics like others have suggested.
After a week of playing I'm enjoying the game but I can now see that it will take a huge investment to get the majority of cards after looking at the crafting menu and I doubt i'll continue further down the road. Still have no intention of dropping money into it for random cards or arena runs either.
On the current discussion, I get kind of frustrated during casual or ranked if someone pulls out a legendary. I think it would be a great idea if they implemented some sort of "Basic Deck" mode to let new people get the hang of the basics like others have suggested.
After a week of playing I'm enjoying the game but I can now see that it will take a huge investment to get the majority of cards after looking at the crafting menu and I doubt i'll continue further down the road. Still have no intention of dropping money into it for random cards or arena runs either.
partyphone
Banned
pay to win is also a poisonous idea if you want to get better at the game. if you lose a game and you blame not having x, y or z legendary then you're probably not thinking about why you actually lost the game. if the attitude dominates your thinking you're never going to improve.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
You gotta let go of that mentality. There are really only a handful of good legendaries, and nothing is immune to silence/sheep/any hard removal. I know it can suck if you're in a game where it's like legendary->remove->another legendary->remove->another legendary, but that happens to me too and I play decks with 4-5 legendaries. No one is immune to that.
The definition I use is that a game is P2W when one player putting money down would alter the results. By that definition, there is no question that HS is P2W in constructed play as long as either player is missing any cards they actually want to use; they could buy those cards with money. HS stops being P2W when both your deck and your opponent's deck are complete. The vast majority of constructed rounds that are played are P2W; some at the high end are not.
It is, of course, extremely tempting for a competitive multiplayer free-to-play game to be P2W. Games like Dota2 which manage to be totally devoid of it are exceptional. As I think I've said before, I find that HS strikes a wonderful balance in that regard. If it only had constructed, I wouldn't touch it, since access to a pure, non-P2W experience is very important for me. But fortunately I have the choice of playing just arena, which is pure. The game then gives me cards for constructed, which motivates me to go mess with constructed a bit. I don't mind that the constructed experience at that point is P2W since it's just a little something I do on the side. On the other hand, eventually I might have enough cards from arena to be close to an actually competetive deck, and can jump to high end non-P2W or just-barely-P2W constructed. At that point I might find it worth it to actually pay for packs, too, since I'll need much fewer of them.
partyphone
Banned
you're missing the part where expensive cards don't necessarily make decks better and you can have highly competitive decks that don't use any epics or legendaries. not to mention the outright terrible legendaries that exist and no one uses.
the bottom line is legendaries give you more variety and more options not more power.
I know but I'm just saying this as someone who is new to the game and would get a better hang of the basics against similar opponents. I don't think any of the legendaries I've encountered so far have been overpowered, I've just had a couple of matches with dramatic swings after the opponent plays them. I suppose coming up against them is teaching me what they do and how to counter them in many respects.
I think it would be extremely difficult to have a top tier warrior deck that didn't have any of their key rare/epic class cards.
Armorsmith, Frothing Berserker, and Shield Slam are all very powerful cards.
Edit: durrr.. You're talking about legendaries in particular
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
I mean I admit I wish the matchmaking/invisible hand made it so people without leg in their deck would face similar decks. But it seems that's not the case. I actually remember back in January I told people I felt like I had never seen a leg and then 2 weeks later boom everyone. Clearly my mmr had gotten to the level where it was like no more basic players for you.
None of those are out of reach for players. I know, I crafted both my berserkers and shield slams. Even after 150+ packs I've never drawn one. But keeping up with my dailies and disenchanting the cards from the packs gave me the ability to get the without having to pay for anything or worry about rng.
The Lamonster
Member
Hunters are still OP
Your skills are UP.
Permanently A
Junior Member
Still think changing Buzzard to "Draw a card when a friendly beast dies" would be more fitting and balanced.
I would've liked that more than the measly UTH nerf. Why should they draw so much instantly when cards like Hunter's Mark exist? That just gives them free top decks and removal.
It's pretty stupid.
Could change hunters mark to be closer to the wow skill.
All attacks done to marked target increased by 3.
Super Nothing
Member
I did the same thing with a druid deck the other day. I thought I was gonna bust out with one win at best, but I managed five. Then my next arena game was a total bust, 0-3. I drafted a rogue deck but was only offered one backstab. I got no eviscerates or assassinates. Game would not stop offering me conceal, though. I'm still pissed off about that draw.
Shaman vs to-the-face Hunter is pretty dumb. Shaman is weak to aggro and then just weak to things that take advantage of their board flooding. It's an awful match-up that you can only improve in miniscule amounts.
Shaman vs mid-range Hunter, however, is a lot closer to even. Though I'd imagine the UtH change really hurt this deck as it removed an entire turn from them.
This is why I hate the argument. I'm a whiny bitch if you ever actually get to know me from Mumble or in-game stuff but like, I'm pretty up front when I make mistakes in games like this. What's the point of blaming something out of my control short of making myself feel better? Seems unimportant if I care about actually getting better at the game.
shadowstar
Member
The issue with this is, sure you may need to spend time to craft cards you need for a specific deck or maybe you pay gold to buy packs to dust them for the card. However, you DON'T HAVE to play those decks. There are plenty of free decks you can make that are more than competitive as Trump and Kolento have shown (among others). You don't need any sort of significant investment in time or money in order to do well other than what you need to acquire knowledge, experience, and skill.
Forsaken82
Member
If you buy 40 card packs, and don't need 100 of the cards you get, dusting them and then crafting cards you will use gives you an advantage over someone who doesn't have access to crafting whatever he wants/needs to make that perfect deck for his/herself and has to resort to waiting for that perfect draw once every hundred or 150 gold he earns (depending on how he does in arena).
"P2W", to me, is an advantage that you can only get through paying. Getting there faster isn't necessarily "P2W" in my book.
Also, I hate the DotA example. Getting people into Steam is more valuable than making money out of monetizing getting into DotA. Maybe I'm alone in this train of thought / I play League so my opinion is irrelevant.
Sure but ... if that player had purchased 40 packs with in-game gold, it's the same outcome. Crying "P2W" to every single Epic / Legendary card seems a bit off to me. Not everybody who has a card paid money, yet it seems to be the go to argument for it. "I lost to P2W."
Also, I hate the DotA example. Getting people into Steam is more valuable than making money out of monetizing getting into DotA. Maybe I'm alone in this train of thought / I play League so my opinion is irrelevant.
Sure but ... if that player had purchased 40 packs with in-game gold, it's the same outcome. Crying "P2W" to every single Epic / Legendary card seems a bit off to me. Not everybody who has a card paid money, yet it seems to be the go to argument for it. "I lost to P2W."
I'm not missing a thing. You might want to re-read my post, since I didn't say a word about epics and legendaries, nor about expensive cards "necessarily" making decks better. It makes no difference if some relatively cheap decks are "highly competetive" - what matters is that they are not absolute top tier decks in the game.
What constitutes "top tier" is constantly shifting, but the past few (Hunter, Zoo, Miracle Rogue) contain 1 to zero legendaries. And Trump's taken F2P Mage, Shaman, and Warlock decks to legendary rank on the ladder. Control Warrior's the deck that is loaded with expensive cards.
I'm not sure what else has to be done to convince people that Hearthstone isn't P2W.
Zoo and Midrange Hunter were basically defining parts of the meta and they're both relatively cheap in terms of dust cost. In fact, they generally counter the more "expensive" decks in general (both are slightly favored vs Control Warrior, the most expensive dust cost deck in the meta). Midrange Hunter for the last season of ladder was the deck to beat.
I mean, for it to not be pay-to-win you mean that literally every card in the deck has to be given to you from the start? If so, yes, the game is totally pay-to-win as you'll need to replace basic cards with other cards. The thing is that many decks are actually comprised primarily with common-to-rare cards and not a ton of epic and Legendary cards.
shadowstar
Member
Even if you couldn't buy packs, if the only way to find new cards is use the in game gold to buy them, people would complain about no lifers or some crap.
I crafted a legendary worklock zoo deck that a lot of people used to get legendary and I can't win more than two games in a row at rank 17, P2W does not hold true in some cases, it's more Like P2GetMoreDecks , Spending money doesn't buy you game knowledge.
Ps Ive only spent £7.99 on 15 packs in beta and nothing since
Ps Ive only spent £7.99 on 15 packs in beta and nothing since
Minsc
Gold Member
Ultimately, Hearthstone is Play-2-Win.
The more you play the more you (eventually) win. That's the bottom line. People who've played more will win more.
I'd put my money on someone who's been playing for 3-4 months with no money, over someone who is starting out and spent $2,000 on packs and has full golden decks.
The more you play the more you (eventually) win. That's the bottom line. People who've played more will win more.
I'd put my money on someone who's been playing for 3-4 months with no money, over someone who is starting out and spent $2,000 on packs and has full golden decks.
Vigilant Gambit
Member
After updating, the game crashes immediately when I try to run it on my iPad 3.
Does anyone else have this issue?
Does anyone else have this issue?
"Pay-to-win" somehow denoting "lol no skill bought the win" in a card game just seems awkward to me, really. I guess that's what it comes down to in the end whenever this discussion comes up. You can buy every card and still be the worst player to ever play the game.
omg lag
omg lag
CosmicQueso
Member
omgz so 31337
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